effi wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
effi wrote:
copper, on the other hand, used in plumbing definitely presents
health
problems to humans (noting per
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load...241107300.html
"However, my own dog had cancer and he was allways given water
from
the tap
in the kitchen with copper pipes.")
Here's a more complete quote,
it was a verbatim quote, you are not offering a more complete quote,
you are
simply quoting more
In this case, by quoting more, one truly does provide a more complete
quote. It is difficult to see how it could be otherwise. Your quote,
verbatim though it was, was far from complete. Mine was both verbatim
and more complete.
which implies something quite different:
no, the text you quote indicates the copper was a contributing factor
to the
dog's cancer, and, in fact, mentions no other known causes of cancer
regarding the dog's cancer (unless you consider the "good healthcare
and a
reasonably varied diet" cited to be carcinogenic)
the point was made the dog was not given water out of a plastic
garden type
(outside) hose but was given water from an inside faucet fed with
water
through copper pipe and the dog got cancer
The point made was that the dog got cancer DESPITE being watered from
copper pipes exclusively. The author (Bry84) had earlier made the point
that a garden hose had a very good chance of leaching toxins into the
water.
"However, my own dog had cancer and he was allways given water from
the
tap in the kitchen with copper pipes. He also had good healthcare
and a
reasonably varied diet. Many things in our environment can increase
the
risk of cancer, but for most who develop it no single thing caused
it,
instead the effect was an accumulation of many things working
together.
Unfortunately there are no certainties in life, anybody regardless
of
age, lifestyle and environment can get cancer."
In other words, anecdotes of single events are often not very good
at
proving causality when so many other factors come into play.
again, the quoted data mentions no other known causes of cancer for
the dog,
just the copper
The quote in fact mentions "[m]any things in our environment can
increase the risk of cancer." The dog got cancer despite the copper
water supply, despite not being watered from a plastic hose, therefore
from one or several of the "many things."
One need go no farther than the first of that author's quotes in that
gardenweb thread to see if he thinks copper caused his dog's cancer:
"I drink hundereds of gallons of water from these pipes every year,
cook with it and wash in it. I'm not comfortable using anything except
copper as it's totally safe and doesn't affect the water." -Bry84.
it is abundantly clear you have not read all the previously cited
information on this issue of copper causing cancer
you are also trying to imply the data available that copper can cause
cancer
is wrong
you are wrong
The paucity of what I have provided is insufficient for you to make so
bold a statement about what I may or may not have read. However, your
inability to divine Bry84's intent from his posts to the gardenweb
thread certainly calls into question your ability to assimilate what
_you_ have read.
From the same thread on gardenweb:
"Copper has well-defined hazards. Plastic is still under
investigation
and it will be a long time before the hazards are as well-known as
copper."
translation: no hazards with pvc (assuming you quote "plastic" as
relevant
to, or meaning, pvc), which is what the available data says
if you can't show data to the contrary, your position to the contrary
is
based on nothing, and it means nothing
Yes, plastic in the context of that quote is PVC or CPVC. So no, your
translation is incorrect: unknown hazards are far different from
hazards proven not to exist.
My position on PVC is that it is most likely to be inert, and that
trace amounts that leach into the water are easy to rinse away. My
position is also that since it is relatively new, we are still serving
as guinea pigs for long-term product testing. The jury is still out.
Conversely, copper is a nutrient, part of a healthy diet when not taken
to excess. Copper from pipes is in most cases well below the
recommended daily requirement for this nutrient. The symptoms of copper
toxicity are well-known and reversible if the source of the excess is
eliminated. So copper pipes may be "the Devil you know."
google copper pipe cancer
copper pipe also causes schizophrenia in humans, as well as other
problems,
already covered in depth in this newsgroup and now available in
the
google
archives
google is your friend
Well, I googled "copper pipe schizophrenia" and the first few hits
seemed to be written by extremist wingnuts, so I quickly got bored
with
it. Googling simply "copper schizophrenia"
you didn't "google copper pipe cancer" (you googled "copper pipe
schizophrenia" and "copper schizophrenia"), then you compared your
googlings
to "google copper pipe cancer", you are a failure at reading
comprehension
Your words: "copper pipe also causes schizophrenia in humans." I don't
believe anybody could construe that as a directive NOT to google
"copper pipe schizophrenia." I was trying to research your claim that
copper pipe causes schizophrenia in humans. I made no comparison
between schizophrenia and cancer; that is your miscomprehending what I
did.
But since you want to drag it out of me, I had also googled "copper
pipe cancer" and found the overwhelming majority of the first pages of
hits to be references to carcinogens in PVC pipes with copper as the
safer alternative, as well as some use of copper compounds in
prevention and treatment of cancer. I didn't think that was the result
you wanted to hear, so I held it back till I could get more specific
links from you.
revealed that in addition to
excess copper, INsufficient copper is a factor and that in some
individuals elevated copper was not a cause but an _effect_ of
their
genetic predisposition (Wilson's disease).
So myself, if the water's been sitting for a few hours or more, I
don't
trust ANY pipe not to leach nasties into my water,
plastic or metal.
Before I use any water for drinking or cooking, I make sure I've
flushed a toilet to clear any standing water in the lateral from
the
main up to the house, then run the faucet for enough time till the
water feels cold. It's no extra effort because there's usually
something to flush in the toilet* and there's usually a dish to
rinse
or some hands to wash in the sink.
all unnecessary with pvc pipe
enjoy your copper if you must, it's very unhealthy, and can cause
cancer
(numerous links posted to substantiate this, research it yourself
further,
no additional info will be offered since it's already here, you just
haven't
read it)
Show me where I said I have copper pipe.
Also, please go ahead and post those links which say that copper pipes
cause cancer (or schizophrenia for that matter). I've read lots of
stuff, but this thread contains only the gardenweb reference, and it is
far from authoritative for or against. It is your claim that copper
pipe causes cancer (and schizophrenia), so you should have those
references handy to back up the claims; it should not be up to me to
research it to make your case for you. My research reveals the opposite
of your claims. For instance the following seem to be from respectable
sources, but they mention cancer only in association with contaminants
other than copper and do not link copper to cancer despite every
opportunity to do so:
http://www4.nationalacademies.org/ne...4?OpenDocument
http://pubs.caes.uga.edu/caespubs/pubcd/c819-8w.html
http://wilkes.edu/~eqc/standards.htm
http://envirocancer.cornell.edu/Fact...7a.drnkwtr.cfm
http://www.e-b-i.net/ebi/contaminants/copper.html
In fact, the last references state "Iron, copper, and zinc are common
heavy metals found in drinking water, but they are not considered
carcinogens" and "Copper is not known to cause cancer." Now, despite
the alleged "respectability" of those sources, I cannot say for sure if
they have been vetted by the process of peer review. Any crackpot can
throw up a website and make it look "respectable." Thus one may have
more confidence in studies published in the peer-reviewed medical
literature available at PubMed:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...arch&DB=pubmed
There I find that in the vast majority of articles that deal with
elevated copper levels and cancer, elevated copper is implicated as a
result of cancer, not the cause. (One should not confuse copper
ingestion with arsenic ingestion or occupational exposure to copper
compounds.) Copper chelation (which induces copper defficiency) has
thus been investigated as a means to slow the progression of cancer. By
the same token, reducing bloodflow to a tumor will also slow the
tumor's growth, but it would be a stretch to claim that blood causes
cancer.
So please provide those links to credible, preferrably peer-reviewed
sources to back up your claims. I've provided a few to back up my
position. As to the issue of toxins leaching from "plastic" pipe, I
leave you with:
http://www.builderswebsource.com/tec...cpvccopper.htm
"Much has been written about the potential health effects of residual
vinyl chloride monomer, or RVCM which is found in trace amounts in
plastics containing Polyvinyl Chloride, including CPVC and PVC pipe.
Proponents and detractors alike continue to debate the long-term health
impact due to extended exposure to RVCM.
"VCM is made by heating ethylene dichlroride (EDC) to 700 degrees F in
the presence of oxygen. VCM is used to produce PVC resins which are
used to make pipe and other materials using a process known as
polymerization. During this process, most, but not all of the VCM is
consumed. Trace amounts remain trapped in the PVC resin where it either
outgasses into the atmosphere, or migrates into food or drink stored in
containers or pipes made of PVC. This remaining chemical is residual
vinyl chloride monomer, or RVCM.
"... However, there is little argument that extended exposure to VCMs
which exceed government standards, can lead to neurological and liver
effects as well as cancer, such as angiosarcoma - a normally rare form
of liver cancer."
The critical thing here is although it clearly says that RVCM leaches
into the water, it falls far short of stating that the levels approach
even a small fraction of carcinogenic.
I'll flush my pipes before I drink from them anyway.
%mod%
P.S. If copper from pipes causes cancer, then megadoses should cause a
clear increase in cancer rate, right? I'll leave it to you to decide if
the following "failure to prove the positive" equates to "proving the
nagative."
Drug Nutr Interact. 1988;5(4):395-401. Influence of copper and
zinc on urethan-induced adenoma development in mice. Blakley BR.
Department of Veterinary Physiological Sciences, University of
Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada.
Female Swiss mice were exposed to zinc chloride (0 to 500 ug/mL) or
copper sulfate (0 to 200 ug/mL) in their drinking water for 15 weeks.
After 3 weeks of the exposure period, the mice were administered
urethan (1.5 mg/g) intraperitoneally. Urethan-induced pulmonary adenoma
formation was evaluated 12 weeks later. Zinc exposure increased the
number of adenomas produced but reduced the mean tumor diameter in the
intermediate treatment groups, 50 and 200 ug/mL. Exposure to copper had
no effect on tumor size or on tumor number. Weight gains in the mice
were not affected by copper or zinc treatment, although a
dose-dependent reduction in water consumption was observed with copper.
Water consumption in mice exposed to zinc was elevated in one treatment
group (50 ug/mL). Urethan-induced sleeping times, which reflect the
rate of urethan excretion, were prolonged by zinc exposure but were
unaffected by copper exposure. This finding suggests that zinc exposure
impairs the elimination of urethan and enhances its carcinogenic
activity, which is manifested by increased tumor formation.