On Monday, 24 May 2021 at 16:01:54 UTC+1, Spike wrote:
On 24/05/2021 14:04, whisky-dave wrote:
On Monday, 24 May 2021 at 09:36:02 UTC+1, Spike wrote:
On 23/05/2021 21:21, T i m wrote:

And that's the thing, a lot of these carnists consider the flesh of a
tiny subset of all the animal species as some sort of unique elixir of
life when many million people around the globe have been living long,
happy and healthy lives for thousands of years without any?
Presumably you are referring to the 'natural' life that you want to
force on animals, where their life expectancy in that brutal regime is
even shorter than for the cosseted farm animals.

It isn't normally though. Animals tend to live much longer in the wild than when bred to eat.
A survey of wild foxes showed that average age at death was 5 years,

Well which survery is that, as foxes the avergae age is 2 years as they are killed by cars.
I guess cars are natural, so road traffic accidents where people get killed are recorded as natural causes are they ?

but a fox could live to 20. The natural life is quite brutal.

and humans can live to ~110 or more.


But killed by a pack of dogs trained by people wearing red at the age of 1 or younger isn't natural.
Neither is your pet being killed by a pack of hounds sent to catch a fox natural either.
see minis law.


We keep humans alive and in pain for personal selfish reasons though, something we rarely do with animals.

And it's the same for
people, there is no 'natural life' idyll. It's harsh, with a greatly
shortened life expectancy.

Really have any actual facts to prove that?
I believe that hunter-gatherers lived to about 30. It was quite a brutal
life.

Do you think things have changed ?

You yourself don't live anywhere near a
'natural' life; indeed you have a highly-automated home, own a dog, and
claim to own 10 vehicles. What makes you think that is 'natural'? So why
don't you practise what you preach?

That depends what yuo call a natural life doesn't it.
Do you include wearing clothes as being natural, cooking food ?
You'd better ask T i m , after all he's the one that wants it but
doesn't live it himself.

Thye natural life for a cow in the UK is highly unlikely to be killed by a natrual preditor.
Neither are sheep, and even if they were others have a chance of escape ,
but this doesn't happen when humans kill them.

So, given all matter is made up of a fixed range of components, meat
is no different and as you say, if you were insist that you *had* to
eat meat (when it's clear that you don't) to get these, they could be
put together in the same quantities in the form of a plant based
tablet or lump of syntho animal flesh, if you really had to.

Have you ever thought why Europe, birthplace of the Industrial
Revolution that has brought you so much improvement in your life, became
the powerhouse of the world? Could it be that the climate there wasn't
conducive to living on vegetables all year round? That the addition of
meat to the diet improved brain power? Why is it that religious cults
put new recruits on a 'cleansing diet' that just happens to be devoid of
meat and makes them mentally more pliable and receptive to the cults
ideas? Have you seen your own posted messages since your veganuary
moment? Do you see any parallels at all?

We could have evolved even faster by killing off those that didn;t come up
to our highest standards, are you really saying that Hitler had the right idea.
I think you've missed the point.

So what was your point ?

We have to ensure livestock have their right levels of B12 by feeding
them and implanting them with synthesised stuff *anyway*, why don't we
take it ourselves *anyway* (and most people do of course, vegan or
otherwise as many foodstuff are already fortified to try to deal with
the 40% of the (mostly meat eating) population and who are B12
deficient) cut out all the pain, suffering, animal death,
exploitation, environmental destruction that is *also* harming
millions of other animals (wildlife) AND US!

So you are now advocating that animals be fed on an insufficient diet?

Not sure where you got that idea.
From T i m ' s postings on the issue.

Strange thing for even him to say, maybe you misread it.


But how does the human race manage without beluga caviar, or the finest champagne.
How have you survived without eating a tiger penis of taking rhino horn ?
I'm guessing if we haven't all had the above we'd still be running on all fours
and living in caves.
DYOR

Have done, as friends have done one was put in a cell for filming a farmer
feed his sheep cow and sheep brains this was 10 years before mad cow desease was know about.
Do you think it's natural for sheep to eat the brains of cows and sheep ?

I guess it's natrual to pump them up with steriods too.


How on earth is that helping them? What strange part of your religion
advocates treating animals badly just because you think that is 'right'?

Don't think even T i m with half a brain has said that.
What percentage of the brain are you using 10%.
Read his posts!

Have done many times and always had a go at him about the right/left brain ****
and how clever he is to say he niether wants to remain in the EEC or leave the EEC
there were only 2 options of the ballot papper so I'm not sure what other options
there could have been, so what does NOTA meant.



It's *not* part of a 'natural diet' when the animal has been created
unnaturally, kept unnaturally, fed unnaturally (high protein foods
making them gain meat mass in very short periods so their bones
collapse as they haven't grown as fast) and kill unnaturally (with no
hope of escape or defending itself) and comes full of chemicals that
would never occur in nature and that are making viruses that are
lethal to mankind antibiotic resistant.

You don't eat a natural diet. You want your food to look like, smell
like, cook like, and taste like they very thing you are preaching
against. Why is that? Why do you throw away the opportunity to do these
things differently?

The natural diet for humans has changed over the years.
We can even learn to cook, if we can''t we have justv eat and deliveroo.

We can take drugs for many reasons, some will kill us while others may save us
and others make life fun for a period of time.
Whether is't natural or not doesn't come into it.
It's not natural for animals to want to organise teams and play football,
or compete in signing compititions so we rarely make them do such things

I think it's down to being evolved, most don;t walk on our hands and knees although we could
we reserve such activitiesw for games and when leaving the pub.

I don;t find it fun to watch a bull being killed slowley by some **** that thinks his
amazing. I don;t find foxhunting a sport either.

You really haven't thought any of this through, have you?


--
Spike