"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z9vdytajwdg98l@glass...
On Sun, 13 Oct 2019 22:16:39 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 21:22:14 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 18:55:22 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Tue, 08 Oct 2019 00:35:08 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 22:42:41 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 06:02:46 +0100, AlexK
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 00:05:40 +0100, AlexK
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in
message
news I thought all motors created the same inductive load,

But not necessarily on the mains, that's what matters
with the more sophisticated motors used in stuff like
washing machines etc now.

Are they fed by altered AC or by DC?

They arent on the mains. They are driven by the electronics.
Similar to the difference between a conventional transformered
power supply and a modern switch mode power supply instead.

I know they don't get driven directly from the mains, as they
need
to
go
different speeds.

So their power factor is no longer relevant to the mains.

But are they DC or AC?

It isnt the black and white with those. Same with universal
motors.

Explain.

Universal motors run on AC or DC, that's where the name comes from.

So what do washing machines use, AC or DC?

It isnt that black and white with the more fancy
motors used in the best washing machine designs.

since they can rotate either way, does that mean they have to be
DC?
Or
can it be AC using different coils?

Or driven differently. Is a stepper motor DC or AC ?

I don't know. I've only used them briefly in radio control
models,
but
not looked at the circuitry in great detail.

You don't need to. You know the basics of how they are
driven. The problem is with whether that is called AC or DC.
Strictly speaking it isnt either.

Does the current flow one way or both?

That's not what determines if its AC or DC.

Yes it is.

No it isnt.

For example a pulse width modulated voltage, which is only either 0V
or
12V, is still DC.

Its still DC when the direction of the current changes with
an agitating direct drive top loading washing machine.

It's not a steady DC, but the current's only traveling one way.

Not with an agitating direct drive top loading washing machine.

I guess it depends for how long it flows each way. If it's required to
change direction for the motor to work, it's AC.

In fact its not either and your original question is simplistic.

In spades with universal motors which can be driven with AC or DC.

My question was quite simple,

Mindlessly simplistic, actually, as usual.

what is a washing machine motor driven with?

Electricity, stupid.

You can draw a graph if you want.

I dont.

and had to be compensated for if you wanted unity PF.

There is no point in the cost of doing that with domestic
appliances.

I know, I just thought that was the only way to remove the PF
of
any
motor.

The other obvious way is to drive it with the electronics
instead of having it on the mains. Most obviously with
a stepper motor, although that isnt what is used in
washing machines.

Depends what the electronics is as to whether it blocks the PF?

Its not blocking that matters, what matters in this
context is what the mains sees of the entire appliance.

That's my point. Can PF be seen through a transformer or power
supply?

No it cant with those fancy motors in washing machines etc now.

I thought I'd try to find out a typical power factor for a domestic
street, so I checked https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

That doesn't show that for domestic streets.

Although it doesn't have power factor measured, I was interested to
see
that at the current time (3pm Wed 9th Oct 2019), wind power is
generated
one THIRD of the UK's usage. I thought renewables were pitiful....

Any idea where I can find out what a typical home's power factor is
nowadays?

Only real way to do that would be to measure
it and its unlikely that anyone does that much.

I thought power companies liked to know these things for transmission
line efficiency

They don't bother with houses. Just accept
the fact that its never going to be 1.

How come expensive power supplies intended for gaming enthusiasts

What are they powering ?

12VDC devices, such as a large graphics card and CPU.

OK, didnt realise that you meant those desktop PSs.

have good power factor?

They dont.

Its very far from clear that they do.

"Power Factor
This factor is the result of the ratio between effective power and
apparent power, falling somewhere between 0 (worst) and 1 (ideal). Thus,
the higher the power factor the less energy goes wasted back to the mains
network. Although residential consumers do not have to pay for apparent
power, in order to minimize apparent power usage, the EU standard
EN61000-3-2 states that all switched mode power supplies with output power
of more than 75W

Thats not "expensive power supplies intended for gaming enthusiasts"

must include a passive PFC converter. In addition, 80 PLUS certification
requires a power factor of 0.9 or more. Some years ago, many PSU
manufacturers used passive PFC in their products. PPFC uses a filter that
passes current only at line frequency, 50 or 60Hz, so the harmonic current
is reduced and the nonlinear load is transformed to a linear load. Then,
with the usage of capacitors or inductors, the power factor can be brought
close to unity. The disadvantage of PPFC is that it attains smaller power
factors than APFC and requires a voltage doubler for the PSU to be
compatible with 115/230V. On the contrary, PPFC has higher efficiency than
APFC, something that probably most of you didnt know. But that doesn't
mean PPFC-equipped PSUs are more efficient than APFC ones, since PPFC
units are often based on older designs that cannot compete with the
performance of modern APFC PSUs."

From:
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews...de,2916-4.html

They're only going to be connected to a domestic supply.

If they do have good power factors, it would be by accident,
not because they are designed to have good power factors.

It would be because of regulations, as per what I quoted above.

Thats not "expensive power supplies intended for gaming enthusiasts"

- hence business are charged extra for a bad PF.

But houses don't.

This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

You can turn that off

New computer and I forgot.

and it isnt an email, it's a usenet post.

Tell AVG that.

They arent interested.

Well don't tell me because I can't change the way AVG works.

You can certainly change whether it ends up; in your usenet posts and
have
done.

Then you only needed your first sentence: "You can turn that off"

And I did the other one too. You get to like that of lump it.