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Default Why do LEDs generate heat?

On Wednesday, 9 October 2019 14:59:22 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:


So what do washing machines use, AC or DC?


Water and some sort of cleaning chemicals dependent on personal choice.



since they can rotate either way, does that mean they have to be DC? Or
can it be AC using different coils?

Or driven differently. Is a stepper motor DC or AC ?

I don't know. I've only used them briefly in radio control models, but
not looked at the circuitry in great detail.


You don't need to. You know the basics of how they are
driven. The problem is with whether that is called AC or DC.
Strictly speaking it isnt either.


Does the current flow one way or both?


I'm guessing it flows the way it wants, usually from a hight potentail differnce to a lower potential differnce.
Depending on whther you are talking about real current or conventail current.


Any idea where I can find out what a typical home's power factor is nowadays?


I thought you claimed you could measure it.

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Default Troll-feeding Senile ASSHOLE Alert!

On Wed, 9 Oct 2019 08:54:28 -0700 (PDT), whisky-depraved, the notorious,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:


I thought you claimed you could measure it.


*I* claim that you are a troll-feeding ASSHOLE. And YOU keep proving it,
time and again, sick asshole!
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Default Why do LEDs generate heat?



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 08 Oct 2019 00:35:08 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 22:42:41 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 06:02:46 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 00:05:40 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news I thought all motors created the same inductive load,

But not necessarily on the mains, that's what matters
with the more sophisticated motors used in stuff like
washing machines etc now.

Are they fed by altered AC or by DC?

They arent on the mains. They are driven by the electronics.
Similar to the difference between a conventional transformered
power supply and a modern switch mode power supply instead.

I know they don't get driven directly from the mains, as they need to
go
different speeds.

So their power factor is no longer relevant to the mains.

But are they DC or AC?

It isnt the black and white with those. Same with universal motors.


Explain.


Universal motors run on AC or DC, that's where the name comes from.


So what do washing machines use, AC or DC?


It isnt that black and white with the more fancy
motors used in the best washing machine designs.

since they can rotate either way, does that mean they have to be DC?
Or
can it be AC using different coils?

Or driven differently. Is a stepper motor DC or AC ?

I don't know. I've only used them briefly in radio control models, but
not looked at the circuitry in great detail.


You don't need to. You know the basics of how they are
driven. The problem is with whether that is called AC or DC.
Strictly speaking it isnt either.


Does the current flow one way or both?


That's not what determines if its AC or DC.

and had to be compensated for if you wanted unity PF.

There is no point in the cost of doing that with domestic
appliances.

I know, I just thought that was the only way to remove the PF of any
motor.

The other obvious way is to drive it with the electronics
instead of having it on the mains. Most obviously with
a stepper motor, although that isnt what is used in
washing machines.

Depends what the electronics is as to whether it blocks the PF?

Its not blocking that matters, what matters in this
context is what the mains sees of the entire appliance.

That's my point. Can PF be seen through a transformer or power supply?


No it cant with those fancy motors in washing machines etc now.


I thought I'd try to find out a typical power factor for a domestic
street, so I checked https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/


That doesn't show that for domestic streets.

Although it doesn't have power factor measured, I was interested to see
that at the current time (3pm Wed 9th Oct 2019), wind power is generated
one THIRD of the UK's usage. I thought renewables were pitiful....


Any idea where I can find out what a typical home's power factor is
nowadays?


Only real way to do that would be to measure
it and its unlikely that anyone does that much.

This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


You can turn that off and it isnt an email, it's a usenet post.

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Default Why do LEDs generate heat?

On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 18:55:22 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 08 Oct 2019 00:35:08 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 22:42:41 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 06:02:46 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 00:05:40 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news I thought all motors created the same inductive load,

But not necessarily on the mains, that's what matters
with the more sophisticated motors used in stuff like
washing machines etc now.

Are they fed by altered AC or by DC?

They arent on the mains. They are driven by the electronics.
Similar to the difference between a conventional transformered
power supply and a modern switch mode power supply instead.

I know they don't get driven directly from the mains, as they need to
go
different speeds.

So their power factor is no longer relevant to the mains.

But are they DC or AC?

It isnt the black and white with those. Same with universal motors.

Explain.

Universal motors run on AC or DC, that's where the name comes from.


So what do washing machines use, AC or DC?


It isnt that black and white with the more fancy
motors used in the best washing machine designs.

since they can rotate either way, does that mean they have to be DC?
Or
can it be AC using different coils?

Or driven differently. Is a stepper motor DC or AC ?

I don't know. I've only used them briefly in radio control models, but
not looked at the circuitry in great detail.

You don't need to. You know the basics of how they are
driven. The problem is with whether that is called AC or DC.
Strictly speaking it isnt either.


Does the current flow one way or both?


That's not what determines if its AC or DC.


Yes it is. For example a pulse width modulated voltage, which is only either 0V or 12V, is still DC. It's not a steady DC, but the current's only traveling one way.

and had to be compensated for if you wanted unity PF.

There is no point in the cost of doing that with domestic
appliances.

I know, I just thought that was the only way to remove the PF of any
motor.

The other obvious way is to drive it with the electronics
instead of having it on the mains. Most obviously with
a stepper motor, although that isnt what is used in
washing machines.

Depends what the electronics is as to whether it blocks the PF?

Its not blocking that matters, what matters in this
context is what the mains sees of the entire appliance.

That's my point. Can PF be seen through a transformer or power supply?

No it cant with those fancy motors in washing machines etc now.


I thought I'd try to find out a typical power factor for a domestic
street, so I checked https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/


That doesn't show that for domestic streets.

Although it doesn't have power factor measured, I was interested to see
that at the current time (3pm Wed 9th Oct 2019), wind power is generated
one THIRD of the UK's usage. I thought renewables were pitiful....


Any idea where I can find out what a typical home's power factor is
nowadays?


Only real way to do that would be to measure
it and its unlikely that anyone does that much.


I thought power companies liked to know these things for transmission line efficiency - hence business are charged extra for a bad PF.

This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


You can turn that off


New computer and I forgot.

and it isnt an email, it's a usenet post.


Tell AVG that.
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Default More Heavy Trolling by Senile Nym-Shifting Rodent Speed!

On Thu, 10 Oct 2019 04:55:22 +1100, AlexK, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH another 118 !!! lines of retarded troll****

....and much better air in here again!


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"**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
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Default Why do LEDs generate heat?



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 18:55:22 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 08 Oct 2019 00:35:08 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 22:42:41 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 06:02:46 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 00:05:40 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news I thought all motors created the same inductive load,

But not necessarily on the mains, that's what matters
with the more sophisticated motors used in stuff like
washing machines etc now.

Are they fed by altered AC or by DC?

They arent on the mains. They are driven by the electronics.
Similar to the difference between a conventional transformered
power supply and a modern switch mode power supply instead.

I know they don't get driven directly from the mains, as they need
to
go
different speeds.

So their power factor is no longer relevant to the mains.

But are they DC or AC?

It isnt the black and white with those. Same with universal motors.

Explain.

Universal motors run on AC or DC, that's where the name comes from.

So what do washing machines use, AC or DC?


It isnt that black and white with the more fancy
motors used in the best washing machine designs.

since they can rotate either way, does that mean they have to be DC?
Or
can it be AC using different coils?

Or driven differently. Is a stepper motor DC or AC ?

I don't know. I've only used them briefly in radio control models,
but
not looked at the circuitry in great detail.

You don't need to. You know the basics of how they are
driven. The problem is with whether that is called AC or DC.
Strictly speaking it isnt either.

Does the current flow one way or both?


That's not what determines if its AC or DC.


Yes it is.


No it isnt.

For example a pulse width modulated voltage, which is only either 0V or
12V, is still DC.


Its still DC when the direction of the current changes with
an agitating direct drive top loading washing machine.

It's not a steady DC, but the current's only traveling one way.


Not with an agitating direct drive top loading washing machine.

and had to be compensated for if you wanted unity PF.

There is no point in the cost of doing that with domestic
appliances.

I know, I just thought that was the only way to remove the PF of
any
motor.

The other obvious way is to drive it with the electronics
instead of having it on the mains. Most obviously with
a stepper motor, although that isnt what is used in
washing machines.

Depends what the electronics is as to whether it blocks the PF?

Its not blocking that matters, what matters in this
context is what the mains sees of the entire appliance.

That's my point. Can PF be seen through a transformer or power
supply?

No it cant with those fancy motors in washing machines etc now.


I thought I'd try to find out a typical power factor for a domestic
street, so I checked https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/


That doesn't show that for domestic streets.

Although it doesn't have power factor measured, I was interested to see
that at the current time (3pm Wed 9th Oct 2019), wind power is generated
one THIRD of the UK's usage. I thought renewables were pitiful....


Any idea where I can find out what a typical home's power factor is
nowadays?


Only real way to do that would be to measure
it and its unlikely that anyone does that much.


I thought power companies liked to know these things for transmission line
efficiency


They don't bother with houses. Just accept
the fact that its never going to be 1.

- hence business are charged extra for a bad PF.


But houses don't.

This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


You can turn that off


New computer and I forgot.

and it isnt an email, it's a usenet post.


Tell AVG that.


They arent interested.

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Default FLUSH 160 !!! Lines of the Two Clinically Insane Idiots' Troll****!

....and much better air in here, again!

--
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Default Why do LEDs generate heat?

On 09/10/2019 16:54, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 9 October 2019 14:59:22 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:


So what do washing machines use, AC or DC?


Water and some sort of cleaning chemicals dependent on personal choice.


A few years ago Which? reviewed a washing machine that didn't use
detergent: it sort of passed an electric current through the water. I
don't know how good it was: apparently washing normally with detergent
uses some kind of electric charge to clean fabric as just passing the
water through the fibres isn't enough to remove the dirt.

--
Max Demian
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On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 22:33:40 +0100, Max Demian wrote:

On 09/10/2019 16:54, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 9 October 2019 14:59:22 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:


So what do washing machines use, AC or DC?


Water and some sort of cleaning chemicals dependent on personal choice.


A few years ago Which? reviewed a washing machine that didn't use
detergent: it sort of passed an electric current through the water. I
don't know how good it was: apparently washing normally with detergent
uses some kind of electric charge to clean fabric as just passing the
water through the fibres isn't enough to remove the dirt.


Do you have a link? Google ain't working.
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On 10/10/2019 00:16, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 22:33:40 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On 09/10/2019 16:54, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 9 October 2019 14:59:22 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey* wrote:


So what do washing machines use, AC or DC?

Water and some sort of cleaning chemicals dependent on personal choice.


A few years ago Which? reviewed a washing machine that didn't use
detergent: it sort of passed an electric current through the water. I
don't know how good it was: apparently washing normally with detergent
uses some kind of electric charge to clean fabric as just passing the
water through the fibres isn't enough to remove the dirt.


Do you have a link?* Google ain't working.


For the latter, I was thinking of the following - click on "show
transcript":
https://www.abc.net.au/radionational...t-one/10994412
https://www.abc.net.au/radionational...t-two/11020360

Not electrical, as I (mis)remembered: The detergent (presumably - it
doesn't actually say) loosens the dirt in the tiny channels in the
fabric, then, when rinsing in clean water, the detergent diffuses out
taking the dirt with it. So it's the rinsing that removes the dirt: it's
not just to remove the detergent.

I can't find a reference to Which?'s "electric washing machine." It was
some years ago.

--
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On Thursday, 10 October 2019 11:49:51 UTC+1, Max Demian wrote:
On 10/10/2019 00:16, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 22:33:40 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On 09/10/2019 16:54, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 9 October 2019 14:59:22 UTC+1, Commander KinseyÂ* wrote:


So what do washing machines use, AC or DC?

Water and some sort of cleaning chemicals dependent on personal choice.

A few years ago Which? reviewed a washing machine that didn't use
detergent: it sort of passed an electric current through the water. I
don't know how good it was: apparently washing normally with detergent
uses some kind of electric charge to clean fabric as just passing the
water through the fibres isn't enough to remove the dirt.


Do you have a link?Â* Google ain't working.


For the latter, I was thinking of the following - click on "show
transcript":
https://www.abc.net.au/radionational...t-one/10994412
https://www.abc.net.au/radionational...t-two/11020360

Not electrical, as I (mis)remembered: The detergent (presumably - it
doesn't actually say) loosens the dirt in the tiny channels in the
fabric, then, when rinsing in clean water, the detergent diffuses out
taking the dirt with it. So it's the rinsing that removes the dirt: it's
not just to remove the detergent.

I can't find a reference to Which?'s "electric washing machine." It was
some years ago.


Isn't that similar to how ultrasonic cleaners worked in that the molecules of water vibrated and dislodged the dirt, they were used for some circuit boards but mainly for jewlery, Maplin had one for sale years back.



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On Thu, 10 Oct 2019 05:35:52 -0700, whisky-dave wrote:

Isn't that similar to how ultrasonic cleaners worked in that the
molecules of water vibrated and dislodged the dirt, they were used for
some circuit boards but mainly for jewlery, Maplin had one for sale
years back.


Actually, microscopic bubbles. And they are still around. Mine works well
- got it from CPC.

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
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Default Troll-feeding Senile ASSHOLE Alert!

On Thu, 10 Oct 2019 11:49:46 +0100, Max Dumb, another mentally deficient
inveterate troll-feeding senile idiot, blathered again:


For the latter, I was thinking


If you knew how to "think", you wouldn't constantly feed the dumbest
sociopathic troll around, senile idiot!
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Default Why do LEDs generate heat?

On Thu, 10 Oct 2019 13:35:52 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Thursday, 10 October 2019 11:49:51 UTC+1, Max Demian wrote:
On 10/10/2019 00:16, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 22:33:40 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On 09/10/2019 16:54, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 9 October 2019 14:59:22 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:


So what do washing machines use, AC or DC?

Water and some sort of cleaning chemicals dependent on personal choice.

A few years ago Which? reviewed a washing machine that didn't use
detergent: it sort of passed an electric current through the water. I
don't know how good it was: apparently washing normally with detergent
uses some kind of electric charge to clean fabric as just passing the
water through the fibres isn't enough to remove the dirt.

Do you have a link? Google ain't working.


For the latter, I was thinking of the following - click on "show
transcript":
https://www.abc.net.au/radionational...t-one/10994412
https://www.abc.net.au/radionational...t-two/11020360

Not electrical, as I (mis)remembered: The detergent (presumably - it
doesn't actually say) loosens the dirt in the tiny channels in the
fabric, then, when rinsing in clean water, the detergent diffuses out
taking the dirt with it. So it's the rinsing that removes the dirt: it's
not just to remove the detergent.

I can't find a reference to Which?'s "electric washing machine." It was
some years ago.


Isn't that similar to how ultrasonic cleaners worked in that the molecules of water vibrated and dislodged the dirt, they were used for some circuit boards but mainly for jewlery, Maplin had one for sale years back.


I wasn't aware they'd stopped being used. I'm sure I've seen them for sale in the last year or 3. There isn't anything easier to use.
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On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 14:04:03 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Wednesday, 9 October 2019 01:08:01 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 07 Oct 2019 12:59:03 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Friday, 4 October 2019 16:34:01 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 16:28:06 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:


I just tested one of mine with a meter, and it gave a power factor of 1.00, at 256V, 9.8W.


I doubt that it's just the LED, you shouldn't include the PSU in such calculations especailly if running off mains AC, because you're including the LED+PSU so not really gettign any info about the actual LED.

Why should I not include the whole unit? Surely that's all that matters.

That depends on the statement yuo wish to make.
If you want to test the power factor of an LED then that is what you test for.
If you want to test the power factor of an PSU then that is what you test for.
otherwise the test is pretty meaningless.


All we care about is the power factor of the whole unit. You don't have LEDs on their own.


I do in fact most products have LEDs that aren;t directly connected to mains voltages.
Think or all the LEDS in a TV screen 1000s of them, and in phones.
How about car headlights ?


But what does power factor mean in those circumstances? The only thing that matters is the power factor presented to the mains supply, on the other side of the LED power circuitry.


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On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 14:07:19 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Wednesday, 9 October 2019 01:12:59 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 08 Oct 2019 13:44:33 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Monday, 7 October 2019 23:18:29 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 18:54:27 +0100, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 10/5/19 1:59 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

[snip]

More light is better if the whole room is lit evenly. Which is why I
prefer strip lights to point sources. Much better if you're soldering
for example, you don't create shadows, as light can come to the
workpiece from all angles, no matter where your body/head/hands/tools are.

In the case I described, the lamp (a "helpful" person tuned on) was to
my side, almost the same direction as the back of the TV.

The lighting in all my rooms comes from striplights all over the ceiling, so everything is lit nice and evenly.

Is that really nice, sound more like yuo're living in a 1970s factory.


They're little LED strips, they don't look like those huge ballast driven flickery fluorescents.


It's still a strip light.


In shape perhaps, but not worthy of being called "1970s".
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On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 21:22:14 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 18:55:22 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Tue, 08 Oct 2019 00:35:08 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 22:42:41 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 06:02:46 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 00:05:40 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news I thought all motors created the same inductive load,

But not necessarily on the mains, that's what matters
with the more sophisticated motors used in stuff like
washing machines etc now.

Are they fed by altered AC or by DC?

They arent on the mains. They are driven by the electronics.
Similar to the difference between a conventional transformered
power supply and a modern switch mode power supply instead.

I know they don't get driven directly from the mains, as they need
to
go
different speeds.

So their power factor is no longer relevant to the mains.

But are they DC or AC?

It isnt the black and white with those. Same with universal motors.

Explain.

Universal motors run on AC or DC, that's where the name comes from.

So what do washing machines use, AC or DC?

It isnt that black and white with the more fancy
motors used in the best washing machine designs.

since they can rotate either way, does that mean they have to be DC?
Or
can it be AC using different coils?

Or driven differently. Is a stepper motor DC or AC ?

I don't know. I've only used them briefly in radio control models,
but
not looked at the circuitry in great detail.

You don't need to. You know the basics of how they are
driven. The problem is with whether that is called AC or DC.
Strictly speaking it isnt either.

Does the current flow one way or both?

That's not what determines if its AC or DC.


Yes it is.


No it isnt.

For example a pulse width modulated voltage, which is only either 0V or
12V, is still DC.


Its still DC when the direction of the current changes with
an agitating direct drive top loading washing machine.

It's not a steady DC, but the current's only traveling one way.


Not with an agitating direct drive top loading washing machine.


I guess it depends for how long it flows each way. If it's required to change direction for the motor to work, it's AC.

and had to be compensated for if you wanted unity PF.

There is no point in the cost of doing that with domestic
appliances.

I know, I just thought that was the only way to remove the PF of
any
motor.

The other obvious way is to drive it with the electronics
instead of having it on the mains. Most obviously with
a stepper motor, although that isnt what is used in
washing machines.

Depends what the electronics is as to whether it blocks the PF?

Its not blocking that matters, what matters in this
context is what the mains sees of the entire appliance.

That's my point. Can PF be seen through a transformer or power
supply?

No it cant with those fancy motors in washing machines etc now.

I thought I'd try to find out a typical power factor for a domestic
street, so I checked https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

That doesn't show that for domestic streets.

Although it doesn't have power factor measured, I was interested to see
that at the current time (3pm Wed 9th Oct 2019), wind power is generated
one THIRD of the UK's usage. I thought renewables were pitiful....

Any idea where I can find out what a typical home's power factor is
nowadays?

Only real way to do that would be to measure
it and its unlikely that anyone does that much.


I thought power companies liked to know these things for transmission line
efficiency


They don't bother with houses. Just accept
the fact that its never going to be 1.


How come expensive power supplies intended for gaming enthusiasts have good power factor? They're only going to be connected to a domestic supply.

- hence business are charged extra for a bad PF.


But houses don't.

This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

You can turn that off


New computer and I forgot.

and it isnt an email, it's a usenet post.


Tell AVG that.


They arent interested.


Well don't tell me because I can't change the way AVG works.
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Default Why do LEDs generate heat?



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 21:22:14 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 18:55:22 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Tue, 08 Oct 2019 00:35:08 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 22:42:41 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 06:02:46 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 00:05:40 +0100, AlexK
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news I thought all motors created the same inductive load,

But not necessarily on the mains, that's what matters
with the more sophisticated motors used in stuff like
washing machines etc now.

Are they fed by altered AC or by DC?

They arent on the mains. They are driven by the electronics.
Similar to the difference between a conventional transformered
power supply and a modern switch mode power supply instead.

I know they don't get driven directly from the mains, as they need
to
go
different speeds.

So their power factor is no longer relevant to the mains.

But are they DC or AC?

It isnt the black and white with those. Same with universal motors.

Explain.

Universal motors run on AC or DC, that's where the name comes from.

So what do washing machines use, AC or DC?

It isnt that black and white with the more fancy
motors used in the best washing machine designs.

since they can rotate either way, does that mean they have to be
DC?
Or
can it be AC using different coils?

Or driven differently. Is a stepper motor DC or AC ?

I don't know. I've only used them briefly in radio control models,
but
not looked at the circuitry in great detail.

You don't need to. You know the basics of how they are
driven. The problem is with whether that is called AC or DC.
Strictly speaking it isnt either.

Does the current flow one way or both?

That's not what determines if its AC or DC.

Yes it is.


No it isnt.

For example a pulse width modulated voltage, which is only either 0V or
12V, is still DC.


Its still DC when the direction of the current changes with
an agitating direct drive top loading washing machine.

It's not a steady DC, but the current's only traveling one way.


Not with an agitating direct drive top loading washing machine.


I guess it depends for how long it flows each way. If it's required to
change direction for the motor to work, it's AC.


In fact its not either and your original question is simplistic.

In spades with universal motors which can be driven with AC or DC.

and had to be compensated for if you wanted unity PF.

There is no point in the cost of doing that with domestic
appliances.

I know, I just thought that was the only way to remove the PF of
any
motor.

The other obvious way is to drive it with the electronics
instead of having it on the mains. Most obviously with
a stepper motor, although that isnt what is used in
washing machines.

Depends what the electronics is as to whether it blocks the PF?

Its not blocking that matters, what matters in this
context is what the mains sees of the entire appliance.

That's my point. Can PF be seen through a transformer or power
supply?

No it cant with those fancy motors in washing machines etc now.

I thought I'd try to find out a typical power factor for a domestic
street, so I checked https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

That doesn't show that for domestic streets.

Although it doesn't have power factor measured, I was interested to
see
that at the current time (3pm Wed 9th Oct 2019), wind power is
generated
one THIRD of the UK's usage. I thought renewables were pitiful....

Any idea where I can find out what a typical home's power factor is
nowadays?

Only real way to do that would be to measure
it and its unlikely that anyone does that much.


I thought power companies liked to know these things for transmission
line
efficiency


They don't bother with houses. Just accept
the fact that its never going to be 1.


How come expensive power supplies intended for gaming enthusiasts


What are they powering ?

have good power factor?


Its very far from clear that they do.

They're only going to be connected to a domestic supply.


If they do have good power factors, it would be by accident,
not because they are designed to have good power factors.

- hence business are charged extra for a bad PF.


But houses don't.

This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

You can turn that off

New computer and I forgot.

and it isnt an email, it's a usenet post.

Tell AVG that.


They arent interested.


Well don't tell me because I can't change the way AVG works.


You can certainly change whether it ends up; in your usenet posts and have
done.

  #179   Report Post  
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Posts: 15,560
Default FLUSH 196 !!! Lines of the Two Prize Idiots' Troll****!

....and nothing's left!

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/
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Default Troll-feeding Senile ASSHOLE Alert!

On 10/9/2019 8:45 AM, Peeler wrote:
On Wed, 9 Oct 2019 06:04:03 -0700 (PDT), whisky-depraved, the notorious,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:


I do in fact most


FLUSH

You are obviously as big a piece of **** as the troll you keep feeding, you
senile idiot!


OH! HOW RUDE!


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Posts: 10,204
Default Why do LEDs generate heat?

On Friday, 11 October 2019 20:08:35 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 14:04:03 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Wednesday, 9 October 2019 01:08:01 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 07 Oct 2019 12:59:03 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Friday, 4 October 2019 16:34:01 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 16:28:06 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:


I just tested one of mine with a meter, and it gave a power factor of 1.00, at 256V, 9.8W.


I doubt that it's just the LED, you shouldn't include the PSU in such calculations especailly if running off mains AC, because you're including the LED+PSU so not really gettign any info about the actual LED.

Why should I not include the whole unit? Surely that's all that matters.

That depends on the statement yuo wish to make.
If you want to test the power factor of an LED then that is what you test for.
If you want to test the power factor of an PSU then that is what you test for.
otherwise the test is pretty meaningless.

All we care about is the power factor of the whole unit. You don't have LEDs on their own.


I do in fact most products have LEDs that aren;t directly connected to mains voltages.
Think or all the LEDS in a TV screen 1000s of them, and in phones.
How about car headlights ?


But what does power factor mean in those circumstances?


Little to the user, but the designer would be interested.

The only thing that matters is the power factor presented to the mains supply,


which could depend on teh rest of the circuit.

on the other side of the LED power circuitry.


whatever that means, do you know.


  #182   Report Post  
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Default Troll-feeding Senile ASSHOLE Alert!

On Mon, 14 Oct 2019 05:01:29 -0700 (PDT), whisky-depraved, the notorious,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

FLUSH the two prize idiots' never-ending idiotic drivel


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Default Why do LEDs generate heat?

On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 16:54:28 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Wednesday, 9 October 2019 14:59:22 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:


So what do washing machines use, AC or DC?


Water and some sort of cleaning chemicals dependent on personal choice.


Did you not understand the question?

since they can rotate either way, does that mean they have to be DC? Or
can it be AC using different coils?

Or driven differently. Is a stepper motor DC or AC ?

I don't know. I've only used them briefly in radio control models, but
not looked at the circuitry in great detail.

You don't need to. You know the basics of how they are
driven. The problem is with whether that is called AC or DC.
Strictly speaking it isnt either.


Does the current flow one way or both?


I'm guessing it flows the way it wants, usually from a hight potentail differnce to a lower potential differnce.
Depending on whther you are talking about real current or conventail current.


That was the least useful answer I've ever seen.

Any idea where I can find out what a typical home's power factor is nowadays?


I thought you claimed you could measure it.


But how do I know I have a typical home? An average is better - some people might have lots of motors and others lots of electronics. For an accurate result it would need to be measured across many houses.
  #184   Report Post  
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Default Why do LEDs generate heat?

On Thu, 10 Oct 2019 11:49:46 +0100, Max Demian wrote:

On 10/10/2019 00:16, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 22:33:40 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On 09/10/2019 16:54, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 9 October 2019 14:59:22 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:


So what do washing machines use, AC or DC?

Water and some sort of cleaning chemicals dependent on personal choice.

A few years ago Which? reviewed a washing machine that didn't use
detergent: it sort of passed an electric current through the water. I
don't know how good it was: apparently washing normally with detergent
uses some kind of electric charge to clean fabric as just passing the
water through the fibres isn't enough to remove the dirt.


Do you have a link? Google ain't working.


For the latter, I was thinking of the following - click on "show
transcript":
https://www.abc.net.au/radionational...t-one/10994412


This amused me!

"But theres another surprising advantage of not making lots of fur. Fur is made from proteins. If youre not putting your protein into fur, well, you can use it to bulk up your brain. Maybe losing our body fur made us into the clever folk we are today."

So I was right, hairy folk are Neanderthal ****wits.

https://www.abc.net.au/radionational...t-two/11020360

Not electrical, as I (mis)remembered: The detergent (presumably - it
doesn't actually say) loosens the dirt in the tiny channels in the
fabric, then, when rinsing in clean water, the detergent diffuses out
taking the dirt with it. So it's the rinsing that removes the dirt: it's
not just to remove the detergent.


This diffusion thing is simpler than people make out. You don't have to think of a gradient or wonder why it would magically follow it. If you have one area containing 50 things, and another area also containing 50 things, chances are the same amount of things will randomly move both ways. That's 50 pieces of muck still in the clothes and 50 pieces loose in the washing machine water. But if you have one area with 50 things and one with 0 things (that's clean water you've just replaced), no muck can move back in, it can only go out, until it reaches the equilibrium of 25/25. Or if the water outside the clothes is bigger than the clothes, an even better proportion.

I can't find a reference to Which?'s "electric washing machine." It was
some years ago.

  #185   Report Post  
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Default Why do LEDs generate heat?

On Monday, 14 October 2019 19:58:12 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 16:54:28 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Wednesday, 9 October 2019 14:59:22 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:


So what do washing machines use, AC or DC?


Water and some sort of cleaning chemicals dependent on personal choice.


Did you not understand the question?


Yes and my answer made as much sense as the question.




Does the current flow one way or both?


I'm guessing it flows the way it wants, usually from a hight potentail differnce to a lower potential differnce.
Depending on whther you are talking about real current or conventail current.


That was the least useful answer I've ever seen.


you mean you didn't understand it. I thought you claimed to have a degree in physics yet yuo don;t know about conventail, current flow and actual flow which is in the oppersite direction.




Any idea where I can find out what a typical home's power factor is nowadays?


I thought you claimed you could measure it.


But how do I know I have a typical home?


How does anyone know.

An average is better - some people might have lots of motors and others lots of electronics. For an accurate result it would need to be measured across many houses.


and cultures.





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Posts: 10,204
Default Why do LEDs generate heat?

On Monday, 14 October 2019 20:07:25 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 10 Oct 2019 11:49:46 +0100, Max Demian wrote:

On 10/10/2019 00:16, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 22:33:40 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On 09/10/2019 16:54, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 9 October 2019 14:59:22 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:


So what do washing machines use, AC or DC?

Water and some sort of cleaning chemicals dependent on personal choice.

A few years ago Which? reviewed a washing machine that didn't use
detergent: it sort of passed an electric current through the water. I
don't know how good it was: apparently washing normally with detergent
uses some kind of electric charge to clean fabric as just passing the
water through the fibres isn't enough to remove the dirt.

Do you have a link? Google ain't working.


For the latter, I was thinking of the following - click on "show
transcript":
https://www.abc.net.au/radionational...t-one/10994412


This amused me!

"But theres another surprising advantage of not making lots of fur. Fur is made from proteins. If youre not putting your protein into fur, well, you can use it to bulk up your brain. Maybe losing our body fur made us into the clever folk we are today."

So I was right, hairy folk are Neanderthal ****wits.


yes and why most of us have evolved without fur, which is a trade-off which means we get cold quicker, because the energy we used to use just to keep us warm now goes into feeding our brain rather than wasted in produciung heat.

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Default Troll-feeding Senile IDIOT Alert!

On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 02:46:34 -0700 (PDT), whisky-depraved, the notorious,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

FLUSH yet more typical bull**** by the two prize idiots
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Default Troll-feeding Senile IDIOT Alert!

On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 02:39:18 -0700 (PDT), whisky-depraved, the notorious,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

FLUSH the two prize idiots' typical absolutely idiotic bull****
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Default Why do LEDs generate heat?

On Sun, 13 Oct 2019 22:16:39 +0100, Rod Speed wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 21:22:14 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 18:55:22 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Tue, 08 Oct 2019 00:35:08 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 22:42:41 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 06:02:46 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 00:05:40 +0100, AlexK
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news I thought all motors created the same inductive load,

But not necessarily on the mains, that's what matters
with the more sophisticated motors used in stuff like
washing machines etc now.

Are they fed by altered AC or by DC?

They arent on the mains. They are driven by the electronics.
Similar to the difference between a conventional transformered
power supply and a modern switch mode power supply instead.

I know they don't get driven directly from the mains, as they need
to
go
different speeds.

So their power factor is no longer relevant to the mains.

But are they DC or AC?

It isnt the black and white with those. Same with universal motors.

Explain.

Universal motors run on AC or DC, that's where the name comes from.

So what do washing machines use, AC or DC?

It isnt that black and white with the more fancy
motors used in the best washing machine designs.

since they can rotate either way, does that mean they have to be
DC?
Or
can it be AC using different coils?

Or driven differently. Is a stepper motor DC or AC ?

I don't know. I've only used them briefly in radio control models,
but
not looked at the circuitry in great detail.

You don't need to. You know the basics of how they are
driven. The problem is with whether that is called AC or DC.
Strictly speaking it isnt either.

Does the current flow one way or both?

That's not what determines if its AC or DC.

Yes it is.

No it isnt.

For example a pulse width modulated voltage, which is only either 0V or
12V, is still DC.

Its still DC when the direction of the current changes with
an agitating direct drive top loading washing machine.

It's not a steady DC, but the current's only traveling one way.

Not with an agitating direct drive top loading washing machine.


I guess it depends for how long it flows each way. If it's required to
change direction for the motor to work, it's AC.


In fact its not either and your original question is simplistic.

In spades with universal motors which can be driven with AC or DC.


My question was quite simple, what is a washing machine motor driven with? You can draw a graph if you want.

and had to be compensated for if you wanted unity PF.

There is no point in the cost of doing that with domestic
appliances.

I know, I just thought that was the only way to remove the PF of
any
motor.

The other obvious way is to drive it with the electronics
instead of having it on the mains. Most obviously with
a stepper motor, although that isnt what is used in
washing machines.

Depends what the electronics is as to whether it blocks the PF?

Its not blocking that matters, what matters in this
context is what the mains sees of the entire appliance.

That's my point. Can PF be seen through a transformer or power
supply?

No it cant with those fancy motors in washing machines etc now.

I thought I'd try to find out a typical power factor for a domestic
street, so I checked https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

That doesn't show that for domestic streets.

Although it doesn't have power factor measured, I was interested to
see
that at the current time (3pm Wed 9th Oct 2019), wind power is
generated
one THIRD of the UK's usage. I thought renewables were pitiful.....

Any idea where I can find out what a typical home's power factor is
nowadays?

Only real way to do that would be to measure
it and its unlikely that anyone does that much.

I thought power companies liked to know these things for transmission
line efficiency

They don't bother with houses. Just accept
the fact that its never going to be 1.


How come expensive power supplies intended for gaming enthusiasts


What are they powering ?


12VDC devices, such as a large graphics card and CPU.

have good power factor?


Its very far from clear that they do.


"Power Factor
This factor is the result of the ratio between effective power and apparent power, falling somewhere between 0 (worst) and 1 (ideal). Thus, the higher the power factor the less energy goes wasted back to the mains network. Although residential consumers do not have to pay for apparent power, in order to minimize apparent power usage, the EU standard EN61000-3-2 states that all switched mode power supplies with output power of more than 75W must include a passive PFC converter. In addition, 80 PLUS certification requires a power factor of 0.9 or more. Some years ago, many PSU manufacturers used passive PFC in their products. PPFC uses a filter that passes current only at line frequency, 50 or 60Hz, so the harmonic current is reduced and the nonlinear load is transformed to a linear load. Then, with the usage of capacitors or inductors, the power factor can be brought close to unity. The disadvantage of PPFC is that it attains smaller power factors than APFC and requires a voltage
doubler for the PSU to be compatible with 115/230V. On the contrary, PPFC has higher efficiency than APFC, something that probably most of you didnt know. But that doesn't mean PPFC-equipped PSUs are more efficient than APFC ones, since PPFC units are often based on older designs that cannot compete with the performance of modern APFC PSUs."

From:
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews...de,2916-4.html

They're only going to be connected to a domestic supply.


If they do have good power factors, it would be by accident,
not because they are designed to have good power factors.


It would be because of regulations, as per what I quoted above.

- hence business are charged extra for a bad PF.

But houses don't.

This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

You can turn that off

New computer and I forgot.

and it isnt an email, it's a usenet post.

Tell AVG that.

They arent interested.


Well don't tell me because I can't change the way AVG works.


You can certainly change whether it ends up; in your usenet posts and have
done.


Then you only needed your first sentence: "You can turn that off"
  #190   Report Post  
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Posts: 40,893
Default Why do LEDs generate heat?



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z9vdytajwdg98l@glass...
On Sun, 13 Oct 2019 22:16:39 +0100, Rod Speed
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 21:22:14 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 18:55:22 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Tue, 08 Oct 2019 00:35:08 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 22:42:41 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 06:02:46 +0100, AlexK
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news On Sun, 06 Oct 2019 00:05:40 +0100, AlexK
wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in
message
news I thought all motors created the same inductive load,

But not necessarily on the mains, that's what matters
with the more sophisticated motors used in stuff like
washing machines etc now.

Are they fed by altered AC or by DC?

They arent on the mains. They are driven by the electronics.
Similar to the difference between a conventional transformered
power supply and a modern switch mode power supply instead.

I know they don't get driven directly from the mains, as they
need
to
go
different speeds.

So their power factor is no longer relevant to the mains.

But are they DC or AC?

It isnt the black and white with those. Same with universal
motors.

Explain.

Universal motors run on AC or DC, that's where the name comes from.

So what do washing machines use, AC or DC?

It isnt that black and white with the more fancy
motors used in the best washing machine designs.

since they can rotate either way, does that mean they have to be
DC?
Or
can it be AC using different coils?

Or driven differently. Is a stepper motor DC or AC ?

I don't know. I've only used them briefly in radio control
models,
but
not looked at the circuitry in great detail.

You don't need to. You know the basics of how they are
driven. The problem is with whether that is called AC or DC.
Strictly speaking it isnt either.

Does the current flow one way or both?

That's not what determines if its AC or DC.

Yes it is.

No it isnt.

For example a pulse width modulated voltage, which is only either 0V
or
12V, is still DC.

Its still DC when the direction of the current changes with
an agitating direct drive top loading washing machine.

It's not a steady DC, but the current's only traveling one way.

Not with an agitating direct drive top loading washing machine.

I guess it depends for how long it flows each way. If it's required to
change direction for the motor to work, it's AC.


In fact its not either and your original question is simplistic.

In spades with universal motors which can be driven with AC or DC.


My question was quite simple,


Mindlessly simplistic, actually, as usual.

what is a washing machine motor driven with?


Electricity, stupid.

You can draw a graph if you want.


I dont.

and had to be compensated for if you wanted unity PF.

There is no point in the cost of doing that with domestic
appliances.

I know, I just thought that was the only way to remove the PF
of
any
motor.

The other obvious way is to drive it with the electronics
instead of having it on the mains. Most obviously with
a stepper motor, although that isnt what is used in
washing machines.

Depends what the electronics is as to whether it blocks the PF?

Its not blocking that matters, what matters in this
context is what the mains sees of the entire appliance.

That's my point. Can PF be seen through a transformer or power
supply?

No it cant with those fancy motors in washing machines etc now.

I thought I'd try to find out a typical power factor for a domestic
street, so I checked https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

That doesn't show that for domestic streets.

Although it doesn't have power factor measured, I was interested to
see
that at the current time (3pm Wed 9th Oct 2019), wind power is
generated
one THIRD of the UK's usage. I thought renewables were pitiful....

Any idea where I can find out what a typical home's power factor is
nowadays?

Only real way to do that would be to measure
it and its unlikely that anyone does that much.

I thought power companies liked to know these things for transmission
line efficiency

They don't bother with houses. Just accept
the fact that its never going to be 1.


How come expensive power supplies intended for gaming enthusiasts


What are they powering ?


12VDC devices, such as a large graphics card and CPU.


OK, didnt realise that you meant those desktop PSs.

have good power factor?


They dont.

Its very far from clear that they do.


"Power Factor
This factor is the result of the ratio between effective power and
apparent power, falling somewhere between 0 (worst) and 1 (ideal). Thus,
the higher the power factor the less energy goes wasted back to the mains
network. Although residential consumers do not have to pay for apparent
power, in order to minimize apparent power usage, the EU standard
EN61000-3-2 states that all switched mode power supplies with output power
of more than 75W


Thats not "expensive power supplies intended for gaming enthusiasts"

must include a passive PFC converter. In addition, 80 PLUS certification
requires a power factor of 0.9 or more. Some years ago, many PSU
manufacturers used passive PFC in their products. PPFC uses a filter that
passes current only at line frequency, 50 or 60Hz, so the harmonic current
is reduced and the nonlinear load is transformed to a linear load. Then,
with the usage of capacitors or inductors, the power factor can be brought
close to unity. The disadvantage of PPFC is that it attains smaller power
factors than APFC and requires a voltage doubler for the PSU to be
compatible with 115/230V. On the contrary, PPFC has higher efficiency than
APFC, something that probably most of you didnt know. But that doesn't
mean PPFC-equipped PSUs are more efficient than APFC ones, since PPFC
units are often based on older designs that cannot compete with the
performance of modern APFC PSUs."

From:
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews...de,2916-4.html

They're only going to be connected to a domestic supply.


If they do have good power factors, it would be by accident,
not because they are designed to have good power factors.


It would be because of regulations, as per what I quoted above.


Thats not "expensive power supplies intended for gaming enthusiasts"

- hence business are charged extra for a bad PF.

But houses don't.

This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

You can turn that off

New computer and I forgot.

and it isnt an email, it's a usenet post.

Tell AVG that.

They arent interested.

Well don't tell me because I can't change the way AVG works.


You can certainly change whether it ends up; in your usenet posts and
have
done.


Then you only needed your first sentence: "You can turn that off"


And I did the other one too. You get to like that of lump it.



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Default FLUSH another 264 !!! Lines of the Two Clinically Insane Trolls' Stinking Troll****!

....and much better air in here again!

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Default Why do LEDs generate heat?

On Mon, 14 Oct 2019 13:01:29 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Friday, 11 October 2019 20:08:35 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 14:04:03 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Wednesday, 9 October 2019 01:08:01 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 07 Oct 2019 12:59:03 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Friday, 4 October 2019 16:34:01 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 16:28:06 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:


I just tested one of mine with a meter, and it gave a power factor of 1.00, at 256V, 9.8W.


I doubt that it's just the LED, you shouldn't include the PSU in such calculations especailly if running off mains AC, because you're including the LED+PSU so not really gettign any info about the actual LED.

Why should I not include the whole unit? Surely that's all that matters.

That depends on the statement yuo wish to make.
If you want to test the power factor of an LED then that is what you test for.
If you want to test the power factor of an PSU then that is what you test for.
otherwise the test is pretty meaningless.

All we care about is the power factor of the whole unit. You don't have LEDs on their own.

I do in fact most products have LEDs that aren;t directly connected to mains voltages.
Think or all the LEDS in a TV screen 1000s of them, and in phones.
How about car headlights ?


But what does power factor mean in those circumstances?


Little to the user, but the designer would be interested.


Does it even make sense? Can a DC device even have a power factor?

The only thing that matters is the power factor presented to the mains supply,


which could depend on teh rest of the circuit.

on the other side of the LED power circuitry.


whatever that means, do you know.


I mean what the mains sees.
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Default Why do LEDs generate heat?

On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 10:39:18 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Monday, 14 October 2019 19:58:12 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 16:54:28 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Wednesday, 9 October 2019 14:59:22 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:


So what do washing machines use, AC or DC?

Water and some sort of cleaning chemicals dependent on personal choice.


Did you not understand the question?


Yes and my answer made as much sense as the question.


The question only had four possible answers - "AC", "DC", "both", or "neither".

Does the current flow one way or both?

I'm guessing it flows the way it wants, usually from a hight potentail differnce to a lower potential differnce.
Depending on whther you are talking about real current or conventail current.


That was the least useful answer I've ever seen.


you mean you didn't understand it. I thought you claimed to have a degree in physics yet yuo don;t know about conventail, current flow and actual flow which is in the oppersite direction.


I know all about current flow, holes in semiconductors etc. But that's irrelevant. I asked if the flow was one way or both.

Any idea where I can find out what a typical home's power factor is nowadays?

I thought you claimed you could measure it.


But how do I know I have a typical home?


How does anyone know.


My point exactly. For typical we need data on many homes.

An average is better - some people might have lots of motors and others lots of electronics. For an accurate result it would need to be measured across many houses.


and cultures.


that would be even better, but not necessary.
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Default Why do LEDs generate heat?

On Monday, 21 October 2019 21:02:48 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 14 Oct 2019 13:01:29 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Friday, 11 October 2019 20:08:35 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 14:04:03 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Wednesday, 9 October 2019 01:08:01 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 07 Oct 2019 12:59:03 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Friday, 4 October 2019 16:34:01 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 16:28:06 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:


I just tested one of mine with a meter, and it gave a power factor of 1.00, at 256V, 9.8W.


I doubt that it's just the LED, you shouldn't include the PSU in such calculations especailly if running off mains AC, because you're including the LED+PSU so not really gettign any info about the actual LED.

Why should I not include the whole unit? Surely that's all that matters.

That depends on the statement yuo wish to make.
If you want to test the power factor of an LED then that is what you test for.
If you want to test the power factor of an PSU then that is what you test for.
otherwise the test is pretty meaningless.

All we care about is the power factor of the whole unit. You don't have LEDs on their own.

I do in fact most products have LEDs that aren;t directly connected to mains voltages.
Think or all the LEDS in a TV screen 1000s of them, and in phones.
How about car headlights ?

But what does power factor mean in those circumstances?


Little to the user, but the designer would be interested.


Does it even make sense? Can a DC device even have a power factor?


Yes it can.



The only thing that matters is the power factor presented to the mains supply,


which could depend on teh rest of the circuit.

on the other side of the LED power circuitry.


whatever that means, do you know.


I mean what the mains sees.


The mains will see what power is taken by whatever yuo are using as a power supply rather than the actual LED.


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Default Why do LEDs generate heat?

On Monday, 21 October 2019 23:12:36 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 10:39:18 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Monday, 14 October 2019 19:58:12 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 16:54:28 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Wednesday, 9 October 2019 14:59:22 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:


So what do washing machines use, AC or DC?

Water and some sort of cleaning chemicals dependent on personal choice.

Did you not understand the question?


Yes and my answer made as much sense as the question.


The question only had four possible answers - "AC", "DC", "both", or "neither".


I don't know of any washing machine that plugs into a DC supply.
They may exist I don;t know and care about as much.
Older washing machines were usually run by women turning handles and rubbing clothes on rocks or wash boards.

If a washing machine is on a boat that uses batteries to power things and the washing machine is on an inverter are you saying the washing machine runs from AC or DC. Whatever you think is irrelivant to me, so I don't care.

So yuo're question makes no sense to me and can;t be answered as you'd like it to be, so for me it's a dumb question asked by someone that is equally dumb.



I know all about current flow, holes in semiconductors etc. But that's irrelevant. I asked if the flow was one way or both.


Work it out yourself.


Any idea where I can find out what a typical home's power factor is nowadays?

I thought you claimed you could measure it.

But how do I know I have a typical home?


How does anyone know.


My point exactly. For typical we need data on many homes.


So go find it.


An average is better - some people might have lots of motors and others lots of electronics. For an accurate result it would need to be measured across many houses.


and cultures.


that would be even better, but not necessary.


It would be necessary for a meaningful result.


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Default Troll-feeding ASSHOLE Alert! LOL

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 03:07:14 -0700 (PDT), whisky-depraved, the notorious,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:


It would be necessary for a meaningful result.


It would be necessary for you to wean your senile cocksucking gob away from
the Scottish ******'s cock, you troll-feeding senile asshole!
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Default Troll-feeding Senile ASSHOLE Alert!

On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 02:58:58 -0700 (PDT), whisky-depraved, the notorious,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:


The mains will see


WE will see YOU sucking the unwashed Scottish ****** off on every possible
occasion, you senile cocksucking cretin!
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Default Why do LEDs generate heat?

On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 10:46:34 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Monday, 14 October 2019 20:07:25 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 10 Oct 2019 11:49:46 +0100, Max Demian wrote:

On 10/10/2019 00:16, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 22:33:40 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On 09/10/2019 16:54, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 9 October 2019 14:59:22 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:


So what do washing machines use, AC or DC?

Water and some sort of cleaning chemicals dependent on personal choice.

A few years ago Which? reviewed a washing machine that didn't use
detergent: it sort of passed an electric current through the water. I
don't know how good it was: apparently washing normally with detergent
uses some kind of electric charge to clean fabric as just passing the
water through the fibres isn't enough to remove the dirt.

Do you have a link? Google ain't working.

For the latter, I was thinking of the following - click on "show
transcript":
https://www.abc.net.au/radionational...t-one/10994412


This amused me!

"But theres another surprising advantage of not making lots of fur. Fur is made from proteins. If youre not putting your protein into fur, well, you can use it to bulk up your brain. Maybe losing our body fur made us into the clever folk we are today."

So I was right, hairy folk are Neanderthal ****wits.


yes and why most of us have evolved without fur, which is a trade-off which means we get cold quicker, because the energy we used to use just to keep us warm now goes into feeding our brain rather than wasted in produciung heat.


Bull****, we can produce heat as and when required. But with fur, you can't cool down with sweat. In summer you're ****ed, which is why cats doze off all the time.
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Default Why do LEDs generate heat?



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.z98ekpluwdg98l@glass...
On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 10:46:34 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Monday, 14 October 2019 20:07:25 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 10 Oct 2019 11:49:46 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On 10/10/2019 00:16, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 22:33:40 +0100, Max Demian

wrote:

On 09/10/2019 16:54, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 9 October 2019 14:59:22 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey
wrote:


So what do washing machines use, AC or DC?

Water and some sort of cleaning chemicals dependent on personal
choice.

A few years ago Which? reviewed a washing machine that didn't use
detergent: it sort of passed an electric current through the water.
I
don't know how good it was: apparently washing normally with
detergent
uses some kind of electric charge to clean fabric as just passing
the
water through the fibres isn't enough to remove the dirt.

Do you have a link? Google ain't working.

For the latter, I was thinking of the following - click on "show
transcript":
https://www.abc.net.au/radionational...t-one/10994412

This amused me!

"But theres another surprising advantage of not making lots of fur. Fur
is made from proteins. If youre not putting your protein into fur,
well, you can use it to bulk up your brain. Maybe losing our body fur
made us into the clever folk we are today."

So I was right, hairy folk are Neanderthal ****wits.


yes and why most of us have evolved without fur, which is a trade-off
which means we get cold quicker, because the energy we used to use just
to keep us warm now goes into feeding our brain rather than wasted in
produciung heat.


Bull****, we can produce heat as and when required. But with fur, you
can't cool down with sweat.


Horses sweat.

In summer you're ****ed,


Nope, sheep doo fine even when its 45C etc.

which is why cats doze off all the time.


Nope, they do that all year round.

And even you should have noticed that
there are a lot more monkeys and baboons
and gorillas etc in the hotter areas of
the world than the cold ones.

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Default Lonely Psychotic Senile Ozzie Troll Alert! LOL

On Sat, 26 Oct 2019 09:26:53 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the two clinically insane idiots' latest sick troll****

--
Another typical retarded conversation between our two village idiots,
Birdbrain and Rodent Speed:

Birdbrain: "You beat me to it. Plain sex is boring."

Senile Rodent: "Then **** the cats. That wont be boring."

Birdbrain: "Sell me a de-clawing tool first."

Senile Rodent: "Wont help with the teeth."

Birdbrain: "They've never gone for me with their mouths."

Rodent Speed: "They will if you are stupid enough to try ****ing them."

Birdbrain: "No, they always use claws."

Rodent Speed: "They wont if you try ****ing them. Try it and see."

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