On 8/28/19 10:55 AM, Bob F wrote:
On 8/27/2019 4:06 PM, T wrote:
And guns save about 17 to 1 lives versus those cost by criminals
using guns.
Now that is some fine trumptard logic!
Funny how you never back up any of the BS you spout with legitimate
references. Never a single reason to believe a word you say.
Ahhhh. Result to name calling because you have no point.
Next time just ask me for a reference.
Let me ask you a question. Is there a particular reason
why you are only interested in banning legal ownership
of weapons that can used for insurrection and not all
instruments of murder? Dictatorship of the Proletariat
come to mind by chance?
Here is your reference. You will note that this article
has 23 cites
https://gunowners.org/sk0802htm/
Arm Yourself With The Facts
Fact Sheet: Guns Save Lives
Written by GOA Published: 29 September 2008
Fact Sheet: Guns Save Lives
A. Guns save more lives than they take; prevent more injuries than they
inflict
* Guns used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding
citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5
million times every year or about 6,850 times a day. [1] This means
that each year, firearms are used more than 80 times more often to
protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives. [2]
* Of the 2.5 million times citizens use their guns to defend themselves
every year, the overwhelming majority merely brandish their gun or fire
a warning shot to scare off their attackers. Less than 8% of the time, a
citizen will kill or wound his/her attacker.[3]
* As many as 200,000 women use a gun every year to defend themselves
against sexual abuse.[4]
* Even anti-gun Clinton researchers concede that guns are used 1.5
million times annually for self-defense. According to the Clinton
Justice Department, there are as many as 1.5 million cases of
self-defense every year. The National Institute of Justice published
this figure in 1997 as part of Guns in America a study which was
authored by noted anti-gun criminologists Philip Cook and Jens Ludwig.[5]
* Armed citizens kill more crooks than do the police. Citizens shoot and
kill at least twice as many criminals as police do every year (1,527 to
606).[6] And readers of Newsweek learned that only 2 percent of
civilian shootings involved an innocent person mistakenly identified as
a criminal. The error rate for the police, however, was 11 percent,
more than five times as high.[7]
* Handguns are the weapon of choice for self-defense. Citizens use
handguns to protect themselves over 1.9 million times a year. [8] Many
of these self-defense handguns could be labeled as Saturday Night
Specials.
B. Concealed carry laws help reduce crime
* Nationwide: one-half million self-defense uses. Every year, as many as
one-half million citizens defend themselves with a firearm away from
home. [9] * Concealed carry laws are dropping crime rates across the
country. A comprehensive national study determined in 1996 that violent
crime fell after states made it legal to carry concealed firearms. The
results of the study showed:
* States which passed concealed carry laws reduced their murder rate by
8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%; [10] and
* If those states not having concealed carry laws had adopted such laws
in 1992, then approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000
aggravated assaults and over 11,000 robberies would have been avoided
yearly.[11]
* Vermont: one of the safest five states in the country. In Vermont,
citizens can carry a firearm without getting permission without paying
a fee or without going through any kind of government-imposed waiting
period. And yet for ten years in a row, Vermont has remained one of the
top-five, safest states in the union having three times received the
Safest State Award.[12]
* Florida: concealed carry helps slash the murder rates in the state. In
the fifteen years following the passage of Floridas concealed carry law
in 1987, over 800,000 permits to carry firearms were issued to people in
the state. [13] FBI reports show that the homicide rate in Florida,
which in 1987 was much higher than the national average, fell 52% during
that 15-year period thus putting the Florida rate below the national
average. [14]
* Do firearms carry laws result in chaos? No. Consider the case of
Florida. A citizen in the Sunshine State is far more likely to be
attacked by an alligator than to be assaulted by a concealed carry holder.
1. During the first fifteen years that the Florida law was in effect,
alligator attacks outpaced the number of crimes committed by carry
holders by a 229 to 155 margin.
2. And even the 155 crimes committed by concealed carry permit holders
are somewhat misleading as most of these infractions resulted from
Floridians who accidentally carried their firearms into restricted
areas, such as an airport. [15]
C. Criminals avoid armed citizens
* Kennesaw, GA. In 1982, this suburb of Atlanta passed a law requiring
heads of households to keep at least one firearm in the house. The
residential burglary rate subsequently dropped 89% in Kennesaw, compared
to the modest 10.4% drop in Georgia as a whole. [16]
* Ten years later (1991), the residential burglary rate in Kennesaw was
still 72% lower than it had been in 1981, before the law was passed. [17]
* Nationwide. Statistical comparisons with other countries show that
burglars in the United States are far less apt to enter an occupied home
than their foreign counterparts who live in countries where fewer
civilians own firearms. Consider the following rates showing how often a
homeowner is present when a burglar strikes:
* Homeowner occupancy rate in the gun control countries of Great
Britain, Canada and Netherlands: 45% (average of the three countries);
and, * Homeowner occupancy rate in the United States: 12.7%. [18] Rapes
averted when women carry or use firearms for protection
* Orlando, FL. In 1966-67, the media highly publicized a safety course
which taught Orlando women how to use guns. The result: Orlandos rape
rate dropped 88% in 1967, whereas the rape rate remained constant in the
rest of Florida and the nation. [19]
* Nationwide. In 1979, the Carter Justice Department found that of more
than 32,000 attempted rapes, 32% were actually committed. But when a
woman was armed with a gun or knife, only 3% of the attempted rapes were
actually successful. [20] Justice Department study:
* 3/5 of felons polled agreed that a criminal is not going to mess
around with a victim he knows is armed with a gun. [21]
* 74% of felons polled agreed that one reason burglars avoid houses
when people are at home is that they fear being shot during the
crime.[22] * 57% of felons polled agreed that criminals are more
worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into
the police. [23]
[1] Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz, Armed Resistance to Crime: The
Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense With a Gun, 86 The Journal of
Criminal Law and Criminology, Northwestern University School of Law, 1
(Fall 1995):164. Dr. Kleck is a professor in the school of criminology
and criminal justice at Florida State University in Tallahassee. He has
researched extensively and published several essays on the gun control
issue. His book, Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America, has become a
widely cited source in the gun control debate. In fact, this book earned
Dr. Kleck the prestigious American Society of Criminology Michael J.
Hindelang award for 1993. This award is given for the book published in
the past two to three years that makes the most outstanding contribution
to criminology. Even those who dont like the conclusions Dr. Kleck
reaches, cannot argue with his impeccable research and methodology. In
A Tribute to a View I Have Opposed, Marvin E. Wolfgang writes that,
What troubles me is the article by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz. The
reason I am troubled is that they have provided an almost clear-cut case
of methodologically sound research in support of something I have
theoretically opposed for years, namely, the use of a gun in defense
against a criminal perpetrator. I have to admit my admiration for the
care and caution expressed in this article and this research. Can it be
true that about two million instances occur each year in which a gun was
used as a defensive measure against crime? It is hard to believe. Yet,
it is hard to challenge the data collected. We do not have contrary
evidence. Wolfgang, A Tribute to a View I Have Opposed, The Journal
of Criminal Law and Criminology, at 188.
Wolfgang says there is no contrary evidence. Indeed, there are more
than a dozen national polls one of which was conducted by The Los
Angeles Times that have found figures comparable to the Kleck-Gertz
study. Even the Clinton Justice Department (through the National
Institute of Justice) found there were as many as 1.5 million defensive
users of firearms every year. See National Institute of Justice, Guns
in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms,
Research in Brief (May 1997).
As for Dr. Kleck, readers of his materials may be interested to know
that he is a member of the ACLU, Amnesty International USA, and Common
Cause. He is not and has never been a member of or contributor to any
advocacy group on either side of the gun control debate.
[2] According to the National Safety Council, the total number of gun
deaths (by accidents, suicides and homicides) account for less than
30,000 deaths per year. See Injury Facts, published yearly by the
National Safety Council, Itasca, Illinois.
[3] Kleck and Gertz, Armed Resistance to Crime, at 173, 185.
[4]Kleck and Gertz, Armed Resistance to Crime, at 185.
[5]Philip J. Cook and Jens Ludwig, Guns in America: National Survey on
Private Ownership and Use of Firearms, NIJ Research in Brief (May
1997); available at
https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf on the
internet. The finding of 1.5 million yearly self-defense cases did not
sit well with the anti-gun bias of the studys authors, who attempted to
explain why there could not possibly be one and a half million cases of
self-defense every year. Nevertheless, the 1.5 million figure is
consistent with a mountain of independent surveys showing similar
figures. The sponsors of these studies nearly a dozen are quite
varied, and include anti-gun organizations, news media organizations,
governments and commercial polling firms. See also Kleck and Gertz,
supra note 1, pp. 182-183.
[6]Kleck, Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America, (1991):111-116, 148.
[7]George F. Will, Are We a Nation of Cowards?, Newsweek (15
November 1993):93.
[8]Id. at 164, 185.
[9]Dr. Gary Kleck, interview with J. Neil Schulman, Q and A: Guns,
crime and self-defense, The Orange County Register (19 September 1993).
In the interview with Schulman, Dr. Kleck reports on findings from a
national survey which he and Dr. Marc Gertz conducted in Spring, 1993
a survey which findings were reported in Kleck and Gertz, Armed
Resistance to Crime.
[10]One of the authors of the University of Chicago study reported on
the studys findings in John R. Lott, Jr., More Guns, Less Violent
Crime, The Wall Street Journal (28 August 1996). See also John R. Lott,
Jr. and David B. Mustard, Crime, Deterrence, and Right-to-Carry
Concealed Handguns, University of Chicago (15 August 1996); and Lott,
More Guns, Less Crime (1998, 2000).
[11]Lott and Mustard, Crime, Deterrence, and Right-to-Carry Concealed
Handguns.
[12]Kathleen OLeary Morgan, Scott Morgan and Neal Quitno, Rankings of
States in Most Dangerous/Safest State Awards 1994 to 2003, Morgan
Quitno Press (2004) at
http://www.statestats.com/dang9403.htm. Morgan
Quitno Press is an independent private research and publishing company
which was founded in 1989. The company specializes in reference books
and monthly reports that compare states and cities in several different
subject areas. In the first 10 years in which they published their
Safest State Award, Vermont has consistently remained one of the top
five safest states.
[13]Memo by Jim Smith, Secretary of State, Florida Department of State,
Division of Licensing, Concealed Weapons/Firearms License Statistical
Report (October 1, 2002).
14Floridas murder rate was 11.4 per 100,000 in 1987, but only 5.5 in
2002. Compare Federal Bureau of Investigation, Crime in the United
States, Uniform Crime Reports, (1988): 7, 53; and FBI, (2003):19, 79.
[15]John R. Lott, Jr., Right to carry would disprove horror stories,
Kansas City Star, (July 12, 2003).
[16]Gary Kleck, Crime Control Through the Private Use of Armed Force,
Social Problems 35 (February 1988):15.
[17]Compare Kleck, Crime Control, at 15, and Chief Dwaine L. Wilson,
City of Kennesaw Police Department, Month to Month Statistics: 1991.
(Residential burglary rates from 1981-1991 are based on statistics for
the months of March October.)
[18]Kleck, Point Blank, at 140.
[19]Kleck, Crime Control, at 13.
[20]U.S. Department of Justice, Law Enforcement Assistance
Administration, Rape Victimization in 26 American Cities (1979), p. 31.
[21]U.S., Department of Justice, National Institute of Justice, The
Armed Criminal in America: A Survey of Incarcerated Felons, Research
Report (July 1985): 27.
[22]Id.
[23]Id.