"Darrell" wrote in message
...
Hi Bubba & CBHvac:
Bubba wrote: "You do know that you posted the same exact link above,
Twice?"
Thank you for pointing that out I didn't realize the website was masking
the address. The second furnace, which is even quieter than the 58CVA
or Weathermaker 8000V, is the 58MVP, which uses sealed combustion.
So does all the other makers you point out and many you didnt.
Bubba wrote: "The second furnace you are speaking of will NOT make your
bill go down MUCH more."
Uuuhm, which part won't make a big difference?
1. The two stage gas burners where the microprocessor chooses which
stage to use based on the homes indoor temperature and the thermostat
setting.
OR
2. The 96.6% AFUE (Annual Fuel Utilization Efficiency). Come on guys,
let's not just make comments off the cuf. A little research says that
any brand running at 96.6% AFUE is going to greatly increase your
efficiency thereby lowering your gas bill MUCH more or put another way
.. noticeably.
Not over a 90% unit it wont. Even over a 80% unit.
Bubba wrote: "Once again, you have been "snuckered" by Carrier."
Ironically I haven't spoke to a carrier salesman, just a few people. A
Carrier commercial engineer and a Strongly biased Heil (Tempstar)
contractor who put the Carrier MVP in his home last month because he
knows it's the quietest furnace he's ever repaired or installed.
You do realize that Tempstar is Carrier now dont you?
Bubba wrote: "Given the choice, Id take the R-22 for now."
Amen.
WHY? What would you take, a condensing unit with a Scroll compressor or
one without? I would think you would be like most other contractors and
take a Scroll compressor; your risk of a warranty service call goes
down. Go here for some interesting facts about R-410a
https://www.customer-copeland-corp.c...s/news_two.jsp. If you
think the only reason I would choose R410a over R22 is because of the
phase out ( http://www.enblue.com/tips-and-tricks/r410avsr22.shtml ).
your wrong! R410a is flat out better, Copeland as well as the
contractors, who are willing to invest in the new gauges and other
equipment needed to install and service R410a, think so to.
Actually, no we dont.
See, I went and invested in all that new ****, to find out that warranty
calls, across to board on ICP crap in particular, have gone sky high.
This is not from lack of training, this is due to the simple fact that R410
is simply harder on the units.
Again, I point out R500, also a brainchild of Carrier, that went belly up in
about 6 years.
Why would you purposly install a system, that has increased cost to the
consumer, increased downtime to the consumer, increased headaches for the
installing company, and increased cost across the board when you can stick
with a proven performer?
Plus, an R22 replacement that is all but identical in performance is on the
market now, and things are only going to look up for it.
Bubba wrote: "All 3 of the brands you mentioned above are just as
quiet."
Proof, where is your proof. Well, I'm not willing to find decibel tests
either. All I have is my own experience. I helped 7 people buy
furnaces in the last 2 years. 5 of which were put in new homes. 3 of
the five are Carrier variable speed furnaces. The other two are
Tempstar and Trane. The builder refused my claims and forced them to
buy the other brands variable speed model. Standing right in front of
the Trane or Tempstar unit I have to raise my voice to speak. We can
talk normal in front of the Carrier units two 58CVA's and one 58MVP and
it's not just me that notices, my clients to do.
First, no contractor FORCES anyone to do anything.
Second, Tempstar IS ICP!! ICP is CARRIER.
Its real nice when you can service 5 different brand NAMES with ONE line of
part, since the ONLY difference is the name on the unit.
Again, I point out that a proper installation, can make all the difference
in the world.
Bubba wrote: "DO know that Bryant and Carrier are one in the same?"
Errrh? Of course I do, your ASSsumptions are incorrect, I simply gave
two brands so people whom HATE carrier like yourself could choose
another brand and get the same product.
Why in hell would you do that? Thats a scumbag hacks routine. EDUCATE the
consumer, and let them choose.
I dont hate ICP, I love em...those ****ty evap coils all fail, and someones
gonna have to change them, since they only came with a 1 year warranty..
Another reason, I am not a blue oval dealer.
Bubba wrote: "Yeah right. You are going to change the contractor's
price?"
Keeping in mind that my application was a changeout not a new install.
As a matter of fact yes I did change a contractors price. I had 4
contractors come over and bid the Carrier 58CVA. I got a very high bid
from a prominent contractor who makes no bones about his $3300 price. I
got a very low and reasonable bid from a contractor who just started his
own company and left a very large company with lots of overhead.
I make no bones about my prices either. Of course, I dropped them somewhat
when we started another division on the east coast, then raised them when I
found out that the price shoppers literally ended up costing me more than
the ones that understood what this thing called profit is.
BTW, any HVAC guy that went solo recently, has just as much overhead
percentage as the larger company, IF hes going to be around in 4, 5 or 10
years.
It might even be larger. Been there, done that. Tracked the numbers...its a
simple fact.
The best prices normally come from a company, or independent, thats about to
go belly up or is one payment from the gutter.
Needless to say the independent with 7 years experience had the best
price and his answer to my question "Can you sell and install the 58CVA
for $1900 and still make a profit?" His answer, "Yes." Which was a
$210 discount off his quoted price. No, he wasn't a HACK the
installation was flawless and I haven't had one service call!
Not yet...hack installs tend to fester...ask anyone thats actually in the
trade. Most people, sadly, dont understand enough about the operation of the
unit to figure out why the heat exchanger cracked after only 5 years of
use....
Bubba wrote: "you will get EXACTLY what you pay for...Period!"
Uhuuum! I wonder? Would have I got something different if I had paid
$3300 versus $1900? YES, I would have, $1300 less money in my
retirement account. Price isn't the only thing that determines a HACK .
education does too. Get informed and talk shop with the contractor.
Shopping with information and education will sniff out a HACK far better
than price. Hack's can charge $3000 too.
They can, but dont.
Cheaper prices from legitimate companies means one thing...either they dont
plan on being around long, or its stolen.
Work in the trade long enough, and you will figure that out.
BTW, in all fairness, while I cant see what was involved, I bet he could
have installed that unit for about $850....so why didnt he?
Bubba wrote: "the price I give you is what you will pay."
If you get the job ...
And more often than not...we do.
Now....I am not speaking for Bubba...but its real simple....
Education time:
Alot of times, in this trade, you will get a request for a estimate. You go
out, you spend the 4 hours on ManJ, and D, and perhaps T, and you work it
up....you give the estimate to the customer, and never hear from them again,
yet, only one person took the time to run the calcs, and it was you. The low
ball cheap ******* that hasnt a clue what hes doing other than figurin hes
gonna be able to buy that carton of smokes and that case of beer this
weekend is using YOUR calculations to install the unit and ductwork.
We ALL price on different rates, and those rates are determined by how bad
we really need the work. Thankfully, I havent "needed" a job in over 5
years, and as such, the pricing stays pretty constant, till we get a bad
feeling about things at an estimate. Yes..we can bid ourselves right out of
a job. Guess what? Who cares?
Then, on the other hand, there are times that we give stuff away. Entire
furnace installs as a matter of fact. Many times we get a call, and you can
tell right off, not only will the people have a hard time paying for the
service call, there is no way in hell they can afford a $3600 unit
installed. (that price, BTW, is for an oil unit, installed where the
crawlspace actually had to be shoveled out to get TO the EXISTING unit, and
3 days time fixing the screwups that time and the original install left for
us..actually, pretty cheap in some markets) Then, you get under the home,
and find that big ass crack in the heat exchanger, and you know what you
legally have to do...shut it off, lock it out, tell them they have no heat,
explain why, call the city, call the inspections department, and start to
find a way to get them heat when its 30F outside and they live in a home
with almost no insulation, and drafty windows, and they are in their
70s....you just install the damn thing and tell them to have a nice day, and
if they can find a way to send payments thats nice, and if they cant, thats
nice too...and you go on.
Do you make a profit on cases like that? Sure you do....but not in the
monetary way.
Personally, if it wasnt for the EPA, State Board, mortage company, insurance
company, grocery stores, gas, cost of tools and training, I would do this
for free all day long.
Darrell
There comes a time in the affairs of man when he must take the bull by
the tail and face the situation. -- WCF
http://www.utahhousevalues.com