In article , pamela
writes
On 17:38 27 Sep 2017, Tim Streater wrote:

In article , pamela
wrote:

On 15:13 27 Sep 2017, Tim Streater wrote:

In article , pamela
wrote:

On 08:52 27 Sep 2017, Tim Streater wrote:

In article , tim...
wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in
message ...

In article ,



AFAIA every single Brexiter wants an EU Trade agreement.
It's the means by which it is achieved that differs

No Brexiteer wants a trade agreement with the EU. We
already had one. They want to have a deal on their terms
only.

nonsense, that's just negotiation bluster

Which is not an agreement.

which the EU seems to excel in doing when they negotiate

AISB, wake me up when the EU has learnt what he word
"negotiation" means. And when they start practising what the
word means.

This makes me laugh. The UK decision to leave forced the EU
into negotiations. Now the EU is acting in a way which
maximises the outcome for them. What else did we expect?

No, they're acting in a way that will minimise their outcome.
Because if they carry on with their non-negotiations, we will
just walk away.

Why do we think we have a right to intervene in what the Eu
choose to do to itself. Let it be.

If the EU wants to **** itself up, fine with me.

"Negotiation" means that you don't end up with everything you
want. The EU just walks into the room, plonks down their
demands, and expects us to knuckle forehead, open our wallet
and say "Help yourself".

Actually I think negotiation does mean aiming to get everything
you want.... and more if possible. We need to put aside out
British notions of fairness. The Queensbury rules don't apply
here.

What has any of that to do with anything. The point of
negotiations is to achieve an outcome. You do that by deciding
what your red lines are and what matters you can give a little
on. If you think there's room for manoeuvre, but you are not
authorised to go past some line, you refer back home and see
whether you might be authorised to give a little here if they
give a little there. Then perhaps both sides agree on that and
things move on.

The trouble is that the EU has no one to refer back to. Well, it
has I suppose, but not in any practical sense as for any give on
their part they'd have to refer back to whichever set of bodies
decided what their opening gambit was going to be. Barnier has
been accorded no latitude, so it's not surprising that he is
unable to negotiate. All he's allowed to do is dictate.

The fact is the EU does not much care about getting to an
agreement.
The Commission certainly doesn't. The member states may start getting a
little nervous as time drags on.
We are fooling ourselves, and we weem to be doing just
that, if we think they should be highly motivated to get a good
result quickly. If they drag it out and we struggle then they
will be achiving one of their objectives, namely to show other
countries how foolish it is to leave the EU.

There is no intention on their part to sit around supping warm
beer or cups of tea until merriment breaks out on all sides and
hands get shaken and all go home happily ever after..... even if
we entertain thoughts of such bucolic nonsense.

Are you a loony? You're sounding like it.

I am describing the loony expectations that some people in the UK
seem to have about expecting negotiations to be all friendly and
fair.

The EU may be adopting unusual strategems including brinkmanship
but all is fair in love and war.

This is the bleeding obvious. Of course, bad faith is not
acceptable.

Bad faith is an effective negotiating ploy if it gets the person
what they want.

I do hope polite little Britain is truly ready for trade
negotiations where the going can get very rough.

You mean they come in with knuckle dusters? Or what do you mean?
In any case, you may recall that history didn't start on
whatever day it was when the EU took over trade negotiations.
The UK had been doing it for hundreds of years before that.

British pre-EU trade negotiations tended, more than usual, to be
at the end of an Imperial gun barrel and often involved dark-
skinned subjects of the Empire who had little say in what their
country agreed with London.

Every person is out for themself in a trade negotiation. Good
behaviour may have generated good will but we lost that when we
told the EU we were leaving.

It's time for us to grow up and stop whinging.
It's actually the remoaners who are whinging and throwing up the phantom
problems.
We are in a weak
position and we knowingly put ourselves there.
So waste no more time on it and go WTO - it won't actually cost us much.
I would just leave the NI border open and let the EU sort it out.
--
bert