On Sat, 1 Apr 2017 12:30:39 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 01/04/2017 10:18, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 01 Apr 2017 09:59:37 +0100, Tim Streater

Rather than scraping the barrel trying to spread FUD about me, why
don't you tell everyone what actual *facts* you voted on and how you
*know* the outcome of your Leave vote *will* positively impact
*everyone* in the future?

No speculation, no made up country names g, just pure, rational and
unequivocal fact (and not just about what you think is unfair or don't
like about EU membership).

I would have thought its obvious that there are no rational "facts" that
can be called up about what will happen in the future.

Quite ... so, any move *from the status quo* is likely to be based on
something other than a 'poor quality of life' some think they may be
suffering currently in the UK (where any move / action, even one into
the unknown (as seen from the 'bigger picture') and so justifying such
a move (to them). Meanwhile, nearly an equal number of people in the
UK and potentially millions more outside aren't quite so sure what we
are playing at.

I am sure that
many people gave considerable thought to which option would likely lead
to the best outcome for them / us etc. However all of these would have
been based on speculation of what they thought was likely to happen in
the future.

Exactly ... and my main concern. Worse were those who secretly /
privately voted for some 'other agenda that was never going to and
never will happen in the first place (a simple example being the
*message* that £360B would go from the EU to the NHS. I saw someone (a
leaver of course) on TV try to argue that 'no one believed what was
written on that bus did they' and so it couldn't have made any
difference to the vote. You only had to listen to people talking on
the street and even some here to realise that many people *did* vote
specifically because of such lies and BS (as you say, even if it
doesn't change anything other than potentially ... the outcome of the
vote).

Come up with any real hard proof that we WILL all be better off out of
the EU

There is no hard proof yet. There probably never will be.

I know that, you know but and it seems that some can still make a
'decision' (toss a coin?) none the less.

Even if the EU
were to spectacularly collapse in ten years, you could not reliably say
"see we were better off out" since one could equally argue that leaving
precipitated the collapse. Likewise had we voted to stay there is no
parallel universe we can observe where the opposite decision could play
out for us to observe.

Quite, so and in light of no hard evidence suggesting anything really
changing for the worse (to most) in the future, (and not ruling out
the possibility of changing things from within in any case) I would
tend to look at what we had currently before gambling it with
something we hope to happen. 'A bird in the hand ...?'

or that leaving is / was the only way to get things changed for
the better then I'll promise I'll not respond to the topic here again.
Remember, I didn't vote and really CGAF if we leave or stay, all I
care about is that we (a reasonable majority) made the right decision
for the right (and unequivocal and fully considered) reasons.

We may find out, but don't count on it. Some people made the right
decision (where "right" for them could have been either leave or remain)
based on what they felt to be pertinent information.

Of course ... however, whilst I understand how someone might vote for
what they think / hope might be good for them .... that may not be any
real solace / result if everyone around them is worse off.

However, if all you can come up with is the hope that your personal
dreams might come to fruition or they might only start to benefit us
in say 100 years then ... ;-(

May still be a valid choice if you have kids.

Indeed ... (and I do) and whilst I am ware that 'things need to get
worse before they get better', what if they don't?

And nearly 50% of the voting population who actually voted and
possibly many of those sufficiently unsure what to vote (for the
best), even if forced to don't think us leaving the EU *will* be the
best move (the idea is that it's more likely for people on a crusade
on even a single topic, say 'immigration' or 'un-elected bureaucrats
in Brussels' (even if the realisation of it being a real issue was
unfounded) etc to go out and vote, than those who just wanted /
preferred to leave things as they were.

Interesting (if nothing else) times. ;-)

Cheers, T i m