On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 06:35:07 +0000 (UTC), Frank Baron
wrote:

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 19:46:10 -0500, advised:

Not ALL BBS wheels have the full caps . I was thinking the center
caps used on many BBS wheels that have their nuts exposed

Fair enough. But anyway, the tire shops I've been to don't even carry the
five-dollar BBS plastic hubcap wrench. You know what they do instead of
twisting off the plastic hubcaps?

They tear them off with a screwdriver.
Ask me how I know.

Every mechanic that ever worked for me removed all the weights before
removing tires, and ballanced from scratch. We ballanced to 1/4 ounce

Fair enough. That's how it's *supposed* to be done.
But it isn't always done that way (ask me how I know).

By far not everyone does that. A LOT of people have summer and winter
rims, and when one set gets worn to the point they need replacement,
they drop those rims off at the shop to have new tires installed when
they are removed to install the other seasonals.

I know that. I used to live in cold country.
It makes sense to keep a set of rims around for that purpose.
It also might make sense to mount and balance your own tires for this
purpose, as it would vastly make the payback period sooner since you don't
have to spend money on four wheel rims (depends on the cost of the rims, of
course).

So they inflate them to 100-140PSI, do they???? That's what their
compressor puts out.

C'mon. Don't take me for a fool.
There are things called R-E-G-U-L-A-T-O-R-S on the compressor output.
Even you must be aware of that.

"even" I must be aware of that? You take me for a fool?

I took you for one too, with some pretty good evidence, until you
finally proved you COULD figure things out if provoked enough!!! Yes,
I know about regulators - but in 50 years experience I've NEVER seen
anybody use one to inflate a tire. That takes lazy and stupid to a
totally higher level than I've seen - must be a southern thing???

Like I said, if that's the service you are getting that's the service
you are paying for. Go to a better level of shop.

These are *all* either Costco, or Tire Rack Recommended Installers.

Which is somehow supposed to be some kind of a quality recomendation??
My theory is that they *know* how to change tires, but they also know that
almost nobody who comes to them knows how tires are supposed to be changed.

They skip steps to save time, where, for them, time is money.
It's that simple.

The mechanics make a hell of a lot less than that, and if you are
paying that much and not getting proper service, raise hell and vote
with your feet.

I *am* voting with my feet.

1. The 460/A/A tires were bought for $68
2. We didn't pay any shipping fees
3. I changed the first tire today
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!or...o/Xn6hZL2-CAAJ

What's next?
a. Change the other 4 tires (I have to move the spare off the rim)
b. Balance all five tires (including the spare)
c. Align the front camber, caster, and toe at home

I don't understand where you are getting your work done and why you
don't set them straight. You know how to bitch, so do it where it has
a chance of doing some good.

Heh heh heh heh ... I have *bitched* as you suggested, and gotten my tires
mounted for free. I even was instrumental in getting a tire shop kicked out
of the Tire Rack Recommended Program because I documented their foibles.

But I'd rather not bitch. I'd rather just get the job done right, at home.

A. Mounting and repairing tires
B. Balancing tires
C. Alignment

Those three things, I feel, everyone should know how to do since they only
require basic capabilities and basic tools.

BULL****. They have a chart with the torque specs.

Actually, they don't.
Long story, I once had a car that was older aligned at Sears and they
didn't do anything. They charged me, but they didn't do anything.
When I complained, a day later (after checking the bolts because I had
painted them after contemplating doing the alignment myself after replacing
the tierod ends, pitman arm, and idler arm), they found the only thing
correct was the toein, which I had done myself.

When they questioned the tech, he said he didn't have charts for such an
old vehicle, so he just didn't do anything.

How many people have they cheated?

That's what you get at "big box" and "chain" shops - not what you get
at a good independent shop or a dealership. Today all of the specs are
available to anyone with a smart phone if they don't have the data on
the machine. No excuse..
And we were NOT talking alignment - we were talking wheel torque.
Put that brain of yours to work - you proved ONCE that you have the
brains to figure things out. Use them...
Thousands I'll bet.

How many people are they *still* cheating?
Thousands I bet.

Why?
Because they're too lazy to look things up.

Basically all steel rims with a given stud size use the same torque,
and all alloys of that size another torque - and the torque goes up
with the stud size.

Dunno that. All I know is that my bimmer is 84 foot pounds for the lug
bolts.


About right for an M12 stud or bolt on an alloy rim. - tire direct's
chart says 90 ft lbs except for 2002 to 2008 600 and 700 series and M5
and M6 which are 105 ft lbs (they use 14mm studs/bolts)
I imagine that spec is for steel wheels - alloys are generally about 5
ft lb less.

Then bitch at them and vote with your feet - but I'm almost 100%
positive you will screw up more than they do.

It will be a steep learning curve, but I've already mounted my first tire
and I'm sure I'll just get exponentially better with the next four.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!or...o/Xn6hZL2-CAAJ

Then I will balance them.
Then I will align the car.

Shouldn't be too hard, but as I said, there will be a steep learning curve.
I'm sure I'll have lots of questions when the time comes.

Before you start asking too many questions, stop and think it out
like you finally did with your tire changing. When you check your
alignment - if what you can check is OK, good. But if what you can
check is NOT OK, I would still STRONGLY recommend you take it to a
GOOD front end shop, or the dealer, to have it checked to be sure
nothing is bent and the caster isn't off.
There is really NOTHING on that car that can change the alignment
without bending something, wearing something, or breaking something.

Do your homework on the toe conversion issue. Like I said - project
your displaced car centerline about 5 feet minimum ahead of the wheel
centerline. then project the wheel angle out to intersect the
displaced centerline and make your measurements there. Construct a
right angle triangle, as large as possible from the projected lines,
and solve the triangle for the hypoteneuse angle.
You need to displace the centerline or the triangle will be a block
long - - -
Again - stop and look at and read and understand the information
that has been given to you. Then think about it and you will be able
to figure out what you are doing and why.

That's what I always told my students.
Don't just ASS U ME the guys giving you advice don't have a clue. I
did this for YEARS - and I taught both high school and trade level
Auto Mechanics in a "former life".
I know how to do it. I've done it. And I've taught many others how to
do it.

I've done it in Canada, and I've done it in the bush of Zambia and
Burkina Faso - So I've done it with the most advanced and the most
basic tools, and I've done it on everything from as basic as a 1928
Chev to Mecedes and Rolls Royce, with just about any level in between
you can imagine, as well as industrial and agricultural equipment.

The toe in is the EASY one. because you CAN "amplify" the measurement
to increase accuracy. The Camber you can tell if it is appreciably out
- but you cannot be accurate enough to say it's out 1/2 a degree -
and adjust it accurately. You could be 1/2 a degree out in your
initial measurement and end up making irt worse.

As for balancing? You can make it "close" with a bubble balancer, but
you will NOT be able to correct a "dynamic balance" problem. Google it
and understand it - if you stop to put that brain of yours to work you
CAN figure it out and understand why it is impossible to fix a dynamic
balance problem with a bubble balancer. Dynamic balance becomes
critical at speed - particularly on a car with a lightweight
responsive suspension. (which describes your little "wiener wagon" to
a tee). If you never drive over 55mph, or never drive on a good smooth
highway, and the dynamic balance is not off by more than half an ounce
or so (which you will never know) you may not notice any problem.
Driving at 65mph and up on a good smooth superhighway and the steering
wheel starts doing the tango from side to side? That is almost always
due to a dynamic ballance problem. It shimmies. Static balance
tramps.. So of course it's more critical on the front wheels of a rear
drive car than on a front drive, or on the rear wheels.
The "shimmy" even if it does not bother you, is causing wear in the
front suspension and steering linkage - so it IS important to have the
tires properly dynamic balanced.
Most modern tire balancers have 2 modes - standard and "precision".
Precision doubles the accuracy of the balancer - down to 1/4 ounce and
a degree or so of rotation from the 1/2 ounce accuracy of the
"standard" mode.
On my own vehicles I always do "precision" and recheck on "precision"
after installing the weights. to make sure it zeros. Same thing I did
on all luxury or performane vehicles for customers. (and most others
as well - it only takes about 15 seconds longer per cycle to run the
precision balance - and then I KNOW the customer won't come back)

I had a customer with an earlt Supra come in with a "high speed
shimmy" I test drove the car and asked him when I came back from a
perfectly smooth 95mph run "how high is high speed". He said he didn't
have a clue. the speedo didn't go that high. I precision ballanced the
wheels and his roughly 160MPH shimmy dissapeared (the speedo was
150mph, and he pinned it) The problem was about 1/4 ounce of dynamic
inbalance on one front tire - - -




















But right now, I'm giving back to the team, as all good Usenet posters
should. That is why I wrote this up:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!or...o/Xn6hZL2-CAAJ

Again, bull****. You say $100 to $150 an hour - if they are on the
clock, they get paid, so why not take the time???

You don't seem to have any clue that management won't let them spend an
hour or two per vehicle to change the tires.

If it's flat rate, it's a different story - but they are not charing
by the "hour" but by the "labour unit" - which may or may not relate
closely to an hour.

What you seem to be completely ignorant of is the business model that the
management follows, which is that they need to get cars in and out of the
bays in order to charge for things done.

You amaze me sometimes.
Did you ever work in any company that charged for the job done?

Then find a good independent GARAGE to do your work, not a tire
"stealership" Find a garage to do the required repairs on your
vehicle that you can trust - then trust them to do the job. That
doesn't mean don't check up on them - it just means trust them to do
the job, and let them know you are happy with them when they do, and
that you are not when they don't

What you post is perfectly apropos for the ladies crocheting group, but
this is a home repair group, where people do their own stuff.

Nobody is telling you that YOU have to change your tires yourself, but it's
perfectly apropos to ask here.

Plus, I'm clearly doing the job since you can see the photos.
How many people are that good that they give back to Usenet with well
documented step by step photo filled how tos?

I'm one of the best.
I just haven't changed tires before.

Then I will balance them.
And then I will align the vehicle.

It's not rocket science but it does take a team, which is why I am here
asking those of you who have done it before for advice.

And you are getting ****ty work for that price.

Which is why I am doing it myself.

I didn't say how much you pay necessarily has a bearing on the
quality - only that if you just shop by price, don't be surprized if
the oats have already been therough the horse.\

What's the difference between a Nexen NPriz AH5 sized P225/75R15 from Tire
Rack, SimpleTire, or (assuming Costco sells it), Costco?

Answer?
Price.

That's about it.
Especially if I am going to install them myself.

One price could be double the other.
The price has absolutely no bearing on quality.

Anyone who says it does, knows absolutely nothing.
They just use price because it's an easy number to compare things.

They simply assume that if TireRack sells the tire for $100 and Costco
sells it for $120, then Costco must have a better quality tire.

But it's the same tire no matter where you buy it.
The price has nothing whatsoever to do with the quality.

The quality has everything to do with quality.
It's really that simple.