Sorry, another long post.
"Mark Wilson" wrote in message
...
Volts 500 wrote:
Ok, gas is done. On to the water ground. I don't know where your water
heater is located or if you have a water meter inside the house, but the
idea is the same as for the TV antenna run.......install a ground clamp
on
the metal hot and cold water pipes near the water heater.....then install
ground clamps on both sides of the water meter. Then (if possible) run a
#4
bare from the neutral busbar in the main diconnect, UNBROKEN, through the
ground clamps on the water heater, through the ground clamps on the water
meter,
Mark Wilson wrote:
To restate, the water heater, incoming gas line, and incoming power line
(and the service panels) are all in one corner of the basement so those
are
short and easy access. However, the water line actually enters the home
about 30 feet away, and there's one right angle turn to get there,
although
I could probably make the bend much more gradual. Because the water
meter
is located less than three feet from the point at which the the water pipe
enters the home, if I install ground clamps on both sides of the water
meter, I'm assuming I won't need to worry about another clamp "within 5
feet of where the water pipe enters the house"
Right.
Mark Wilson wrote:
. Knowing it's a 4 foot run
to the water heater and another 30 foot run to the water meter, do you
still
recommend using an UNBROKEN wire?
If you roll out the new #4 wire on the basement floor from the main
disconnect to the water meter, you can slide the wire through the lugs on
the two ground clamps for the water heater (clamps not connected to pipes
yet). Then connect the #4 to the service disconnect neutral busbar (first
box), staple the #4 on its way to the water heater, attach the clamps on the
hot and cold water pipes and tighten the lugs....then staple the #4 to the
bottom of the floor joists on its way to the water meter. When you get to
the water meter, slide on the ground clamps as you did for the water heater.
Finito.
Volts500 wrote:
and on to a point
within 5 feet of where the metal underground water pipe enters the house.
It doesn't have to be done exactly like that, but that's the way I would
do
it, if possible. At the very least an unbroken #4 must be ran from the
neutral busbar to within 5 feet of where the water pipe enters the
house.......then jumper the water meter and hot water with short pieces
if
you want.
Mark Wilson wrote:
Okay, this sounds like a good way to do it. Because using a conductor to
join the water pipe and the grounding rods OUTDOORS would be very
difficult,
is grounding the water pipe from the inside (as you describe) really an
adequate substitute?
Substitute for what? I seriously doubt that you will find an electrician
who won't run the wire on the inside of the basement from the main
disconnect to the water meter. The #4 bare wire run to the ground rods
will be totally a separate run.......they will be bonded together with the
water ground _at_ the neutral busbar in the main service disconnect (first
box). Does that answer your question?
Mark Wilson wrote:
Also, because the ground rods will be located at one
part of front yard while the water pipes enter the home about 20 yards
away,
will this be a problem having "two separate ground" locations, so to
speak?
No, they will be bonded together as mentioned above, and permitted by code.
Actually, it's the prefered method since the water ground is so far away.
Mark Wilson wrote:
I'm just going to have to get some images up for you to see.
I checked them out, thanks, pictures help a _lot_.
I've tried to
find online diagrams or descriptions of how the panelboard should looked
properly wired, but I can't find any. Let me try one more time to
describe
it. Incoming power to my house has three stranded conductors contained in
one cable. The two hot conductors are insulated and the third is bare
metal. These conductors are several times the size of a 4 gague wire,
including the bare one. Inside the main disconnect box, the two hot
conductors go to the solitary 100A Breaker. The bare metal conductor goes
to what I guess we have been calling the neutral "busbar". This little
busbar is grounded to the box itself, and from this busbar a relatively
smaller #4 wire originates and, acting as GEC, goes out to earth ground.
A
second #4 wire also originates from this bus bar and goes out to the
grounding bus bar of the panelboard (which I have been calling the modern
service panel).
OK, that part is wrong, IMO. The cable going from the main disconnect
(first box) to the "modern panelboard" should have been a 4 wire cable with
two hots, one insulated neutral and one bare equipment grounding conductor.
The neutral in the "modern panelboard" must be isolated from
ground.........once the neutral is grounded at the main disconnect (first
box) it should never be grounded again.
Mark Wilson wrote:
Leaving from the main disconnect box is a cable exactly
like the one that comes into the main disconnect box. The two hots go to
the 100A breaker IN the panelbox. The neutral goes to neutral bus bar of
the panelboard. There is no green screw that I can see, but it seems
clear
that a metal bar grounds one bus to the box itself.
You should have two buses in the "modern panelboard". One bus, the neutral,
should be _isolated_ from ground (and have only white circuit wires
connected to it). The other bus in the "modern panelboard" is the equipment
grounding bus. It should be connected to the panelboard metal enclosure and
have all of the bare and green circuit wires connected to it.
Mark Wilson wrote:
Although the electrician already said it was okay, I'll have him look at
it
again to be certain. I really am going to let him mess with it rather tha
n
doing it myself.
This is kinda turning into a mess (that's OK, I kinda figured that it would
from the time that you first posted a while back.) Before the electrician
gets started ask him how much a new service will cost. IMO, the hourly rate
that he is going to charge to fix that mess and the grounding just may come
close to the price of a new service. At least tell him that you want a
permit pulled and an inspection done for the work that he is going to do so
he'll know that he can't take any shortcuts.......and he'll have to fix
anything that he knows is wrong. Again, it may be cheaper just to tear it
all out and start over.......would only take 4 to 6 hrs. to totally rebuild
and properly ground that service (I looked at your pictures). Just keep in
mind that rebuilding a service is most likely his bread and butter
work......he'll probably have a fixed price that will not reflect an hourly
rate. Something to think about anyway.
Volts500 wrote:
OK, water ground done. On to cable TV. While you say that you won't be
using cable, now is the time to get a decent ground connection to
it.........if cable is installed later and not grounded properly, the TV,
VCR and/or cable modem, and possibly the computer will be subject to
damage.
From the outside cable TV ground block, an insulated #10 can be split
bolted to any of
the above mentioned ground wires.
Mark Wilson wrote:
I may not understand the term, but there really isn't any kind of cable
ground block outside the house. Cable runs down the house to a splitter,
then enters the house in two places. I guess I could install some kind of
"antenna discharge unit" and run a ground from there. But you're saying I
should run the #10 outside the house all the way to one of the grounding
rods? It's literally on the opposite side of the house from where the
rods
will be. It would be a very long horizontal run at best IF I dug under my
sidewalk and/or porch. If I don't go under the concrete, then I'd have
to
go along side the house and over the front door and past a few windows.
My
wife would kill me. Would it be unsafe to run the #10 ground through the
INSIDE of the house? (That's the way it is now)
The way that I would do it (since it such a long distance) is to drive a
ground rod outside where the cable enters the house......connect a #10 from
the cable ground block (look for a screw or a lug on it) to the ground
rod........then run a #6 (from the ground rod) through the inside of the
house and split-bolt it to anywhere on the GEC.....or land it on the main
disconnect (first box) neutral busbar. Since you aren't using the cable at
this time, if you can get the ground rod in and the #6 to the GEC, if/when
the cable gets hooked up, the cable people will be able to do the rest.
Volts500 wrote:
Now for the phone. The telephone primary protector should be installed
outside the house by the tele co. and attached to the bare #4 that's
coming
outside to catch the ground rod......or to the ground rod......whatever
floats your boat. This connection is best made by the tele co. people
though, if/when they come out to get the demark box right.
Mark Wilson wrote:
Ok, will do.
Volts500 wrote:
The ground conductors connecting the phone and cable ground blocks to the
grounding electrode system are usually a insulated
wire from the ground block to where they are connected to the grounding
electrode system.
Like I said, that's how I would do it. Without seeing it, that's the
best
I can do for you. Actual installation may differ somewhat, but that's
the
general idea. One thing is for sure, as slow as I type, I could have
done
had the job done for you in the same amount of time that it has took me
to
type this post.
Mark Wilson wrote:
Tell me, what DO you get out of helping out guys like me? Is is just good
samaritanism? I'm always amazed at how generous some people are with
their
knowledge and time. I really do appreciate it.
Something to do I guess. It's my way of relaxing after work too. Plus,
while I have my certification and have done my bit as a residential wireman,
I've always been a large commercial and industrial electrician. Helping
people in this NG helps me stay up with current residential wiring codes,
methods, get homeowner feedback, etc., for those times when people ask me to
do some residential wiring for them (so much for samaritanism :-). Also,
I get a lot of info from other people on unrelated topics in this NG, so
it's my way of returning the favor. Of course, a word of thanks or
appreciation goes a long way too, and for that, I thank _you_. Also, in
your case, you've been jerked around by so many so called "electricians"
that I felt you deserved some extra effort.
Volts500 wrote:
Please get it inspected by a _real_ electrical inspector.
Mark Wilson wrote:
I will Volts500. Thanks for your genuine concern.
Volts500 wrote:
If your neutral busbar in the main disconnect can't acommodate all the
wires, you'll have to buy one that will.
Also, a Square D lightning protector at Home Depot only costs about
$35..........takes about 5 minutes to install.
Mark Wilson wrote:
And I could use the Square D instead of the TWO rods, and you think that
would be better? If so, that's what I'll do.
The lightning arrestor is_not_ a replacement for the two ground rods. Since
your water ground is so far from the electric service, the two ground rods,
IMO, are a_must._ A lightning arrestor is basically useless without a good
grounding system.
Volts500 wrote:
If you want an authoritative book on the subject of grounding here's one
recommended by the IAEI (International Association of Electrical
Inspectors.
Soares Book on Grounding, 8E http://www.iaei.org/products_books.htm
If you read that book, you should have no trouble understanding the
principles and doing the work yourself.......but still get it inspected,
please. The whole job, if you do DIY and pay for a permit and inspection
(and including the price of the book) should be about $200. Just remember
that I've overkilled this deal a bit in an attempt to avoid confusion and a
lot of what ifs and why for's. If you are having trouble driving the ground
rods, rent a rotory hammer that has a chuck that is big enough to slip over
the ground rod and have at it.
Mark Wilson wrote:
I'll check it out. I can't thank you enough.
You're welcome. I hope this hasn't become too confusing.