On Mon, 17 May 2004 13:39:46 GMT, alexy
posted:

Sandy wrote:

On 17 May 2004 12:06:40 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
There is no argument. What we need explaining is why the presence of
sodium chloride in the vinegar is advantageous.

Nah. What we need to know is whether or not it WORKS.

Speak for yourself. If that satisfies you, then I'm happy for you
Until you understand it, you won't know whether it works or not.

Disagree. One can observe a cause and effect repeatedly and draw valid
conclusions without understanding the mechanism.

Disagree. If you don't understand the mechanism, or the rationale, you
are very likely to cock it up when things don't go exactly as
expected. Especially with complex procedures.
That's why they teach theory in all trade courses.

Folks knew that
dropping a stone on their foot would hurt long before Newton and an
understanding of the nervous system (and do we yet fully understand
the mechanism of gravity, or just have more sophisticated observations
about it?) Charlie's point is valid; all we NEED to know is whether it
works.

And does it? Charlie will likely never be quite sure.
Someone has to figure out how it works to be able to do it
competently. Not much is likely to go wrong with your strange hobby of
dropping rocks on your foot, I would have thought. Now chemical
procedures...

I'm with you in fascination with understanding why it works,
but that understanding is a want more than a need.

Again I disagree. So many things can go wrong with things chemical. So
many things waiting to bite you on the ass. DAMHIKT.

I, like most woodwrkers,
am not a chemist.

Are woodworkers prevented from being chemists?

Reread the sentence you quoted.

Yes, and what point is it trying to make? Charlie is not a chemist, so
woodworkers don't need to know any chemistry? Well if that's how he
feels, why is he whining about our discussion about derusting tools?

I'm not a chemist, but I have wide interests in many areas.
I know several chemists who are woodworkers. Will you tell them, or
should I?

Tell them what? That most woodworkers are not chemists? You tell them.
I hate the "you idiot" stares I sometimes get when stating the
obvious.

See above.

Like most woodworkers, I have some tools that I either buy
with rust on them, or that are particularly susceptible to rust under certain
conditions.

If they were mine, and I valued them, I would not use salt and vinegar
on them. This comes from my understanding of chemistry.

Why? What are the bad effects predicted by your understanding of
chemistry, and do they prove out in practice?

Yep. Salt will enter the fine pits and interstices of the corroded
surface and perpetuate future corrosion. Very difficult to clean
thoroughly. There was a guy once who ignored chemistry and
shot-blasted his aluminium boat with copper shot. It lasted but a few
weeks. Chemistry is VERY important!

Somewhere about 5 posts ago, an OT should have been added to this thread.

Why? Is it not pertinent to restoring woodworking tools?

Yes. I agree that it is not OT.

So Charlie is being selfish in complaining about the discussion we are
having?

I suggest you are being selfish

I suggest that he is stating his interest.

Why? In a thread that he is complaining about being irrelevant?
Sounds like "dog in the manger" to me.