On 6 May 2004 09:34:10 -0700, (LP) wrote:

It sounds like you're experiencing a lot of frustration and
I'm sorry that you're having an unpleasant experience ... but
it sounds to me lilke you had some shipping problems that are
the carrier's fault and that your expectations were not set
correctly for buying an industrial tool.

I get the impression that you were stretching your knowledge
and experience in buying an industrial tool. An education
is always expensive and often painful, but I think once you
get this behind you, you'll love the saw.

I'm replying to our message because I hope that some other
newbie might be able to profit from the exchange - it's
pretty much too late to help you :-(.

Hi, I'm a new guy to this forum, though I have been reading it for
several months. Here's a letter I sent to Powermatic and WMH tool
group. Sorta long...

Hi,

Here is a story I'd like to share with you.

I purchased a brand new Powermatic model 66 table saw from Amazon.com
after much deliberation and brand research. I read reviews on the
internet, checked news groups and talked to vendors at trade shows.
Your saw beat out the Unisaw, it was close, but the real deal maker
was the reputation of the customer support provided by powermatic. I
heard and read horror stories about delta's customer service and I
didn't want to chance needing them and being frustrated. The fact this
saw is made in the USA was also very important to me, I prefer to buy
American when possible.


That's pretty gung ho - mail ordering an industrial tool as your
first(?) stationary tool purchase. A local dealer would have
charged more but also could have provided some hand-holding and
protection from things like a brutal freight company. Choose
your poison! FWIW, I went cheap too.

There I was Monday night waiting like a kid at Christmas, delivery to
be after work 6-9 PM. Well the truck pulls up at 9:30 and boy am I
excited to see this shinny new Expensive saw made in USA. By the way,
I also bought a Jet 14 inch bandsaw that was being delivered at the
same time.

As I began unloading the saw I noticed a motor cover, which you
description specifically says is not included, that's really nice
except I had purchased a cover before the saw arrived anticipating the
need for one. Now I'm out that $75.00.

Yeah, it's exciting to receive a major purchase.

IIRC, Powermatic describes the motor cover an option ... however, I think
virtually everyone buys a package, which AFAIK always includes a motor
cover, fence, & etc. At least that's the way it was when
I bought mine. I don't think that I've ever seen a bare PM66 for sale.

For example, this 3 HP PM66 package at Amazon clearly includes a motor cover.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00005OQM4/qid=1083867077/sr=1-10/ref=sr_1_10__i10_xgl60/103-5539613-0208612?v=glance&s=home-garden

Remember, this is an industrial tool; For example,
http://www.powermatic.com/PMWood/Tools/Tablesaw/66.html
lists the motor pulley as standard equipment! Presumably, you could order
a non-standard motor pulley. I think Powermatic does do custom
modifications to their machines occasionally. It's hard to imagine a brand
like say, Ryobi listing a motor pulley as standard equipment! :-) How many
Ridgid buyers even know that they are buying a motor pulley as part
of their saws? This is just an indication of the target market.

The first thing I notice about this saw is the complete and totally
lousy way everything is packed. Surprisingly nothing appears
destroyed, even thought the saw's wood frame is bashed and broken. But
then again I have not completed the assembly yet, because I couldn't.
After I opened the box/crate for the saw I opened the saw door to look
inside and behold, the dado insert has not been wrapped and has
bounced around inside the saw during transport. Now the inside of my
brand new saw is scratched and the dado insert is nicked and scratched
up. Already looks old and beat up, new from the factory, plus
scratched for rust to start. Then there's another box with the blade
splitter/shield stuffed inside the saw. Upon opening this box, I find
no padding or protection of parts other than little plastic bags to
protect the heavy metal parts from rubbing and scratching on each
other. To add insult to the poor packing job, the tightening knob for
the arbor tilt handle has fallen out and gotten lost somewhere between
your place and mine. The other one was ready to fall out, as it had
backed completely out of its treads but held by the edge of the box.
Some tape would have prevented that lose.


It sounds like your saw was abused in transit. You did complain to
the delivery company and inspect the saw before you accepted it,
didn't you? You did get the damage noted on the delivery receipt?
Despite is weight and beefiness, your saw is a delicate
machine tool. Rough handling (as opposed to rough use) will
destroy it quickly. Imagine what would happen if one of those
satellites that your employer sells were treated roughly in transit.
For example: http://images.spaceref.com/news/2003/09.06.03.noaa-n.lrg.jpg

Is their any sign of more serious damage? Like a broken trunion?

I would expect that PM would replace the missing part, the dado insert
and send you a can of Powermatic Gold spray paint.

One of the small boxes that my saw was shipped in was damaged
during shipment (the motor cover box?). I opened it up at
the freight yard and inspected it before I accepted the saw. In
my case there was no damage, so there was no problem.

How about that new motor cover. There was absolutely no padding or
protection for this plastic motor cover, and the two self tapping
screws were just thrown in the box, where they have managed to scratch
the cover while the shipment traveled from your factory to my house.

I haven't even started unwrapping the fence or table yet. I'm not
going to be surprised if they are as poorly packed as the rest of the
boxes, hopefully not damaged

So now I start trying to assemble this machine. Lets just say the
manual is quite inferior. I knew nothing about how to assemble this
saw prior to receiving it, so I must rely on the manual for guiding me
through assembly and setup. So I read through the manual and then
began the process. Well, first thing I must do is install the blade.
Sounds simple enough except there is no description of how to get the
insert out. So I unscrew all of the allen screws thinking they are
holding it down, nope they don't. Didn't see any description of that
in the manual.


Powermatic's main market is knowledgable, mostly industrial, users. I'm
sorry if this sounds brutal but I couldn't come up with a gentle way to
say that it's mind-boggling to me that someone buying a PM66 wouldn't
know how to remove the table insert, or a least know how to figure out
how to remove it quickly. When buying this level of tool, there is a
certain level of knowledge assumed. (It's a fair to ask whether
this is the best business decision for the Wilton tool group to
make, but that's another discussion)

Did you look at the dado insert to see how it worked before
you took out the adjustment screws? Looking at the online manual,
on page 11 figure 16, those screws are clearly refered to as
adjustment screws.

I agree that the manual isn't great; actually it's pretty
useless; tho it did help me with figuring out how to mount the
fence. (I wonder why they don't standardize on eithter 1/4" or
5/16" bolts; doing that would reduce their inventory requirements
and simplify assembly) The manual would benefit greatly from
having someone at Powermatic try to follow it to assemble the saw.

But for me and, I expect, most Powermatic customers, the manual is
at most a Bott's Dot in the road; after all it's just a table saw
and who really needs a manual to assemble one?

Next the manual shows a guy using a piece of wood to hold the blade
still while loosening/tightening the arbor nut. Well that is fine and
dandy if there is a blade installed. I can't loosen the arbor nut
installed by the factory with the wrench provided because the arbor
shaft turns. I note there are two flat spots on the arbor shaft and
think to myself, "powermatic guys are smart enough to provide a wrench
to hold the shaft while I loosen the nut (my old cheap Delta saw did)"
so I look through the boxes and parts and find no more wrenches. Then
I look through my tools and no wrenches I have are thin enough to
access the flats on the shaft. So now I have a saw that I can't
install a blade till I find a tool that will hold the shaft. Useless
saw for sawing.


The two flats on the arbor are new; A good change. My saw
doesn't have them and I haven't really needed them; tho they would
have been handy once or twice. It does seem like they could spend
the 50 cents on a cheap, sheet metal wrench after they've gone thru
the trouble and expense of machining flats in the arbor.

I'd just carefully use a pair of water-pump pliers on the arbor - with
something to pad the jaws so they don't ding the arbor up. An industrial
user would probably just grind down a wrench till it fits.

Well okay, lets move on. I'll install a power cable to the saw. Since
Powermatic doesn't provide one or even a guide to buying the right
size, I get one the same gauge as the motor cable 12/3 calculating
this will be big enough. I open the switch cover, looking at the
picture in the manual of how the power is routed (which is good
enough), but crap there is no cable clamp to hold the power cable into
the switch box. Not even a note in the manual that one is needed. So
off I go to Home Depot and buy a package of 5 (only comes in packages
of five) for $1.25 or 25 cents each. Come on guys, a 25 cent part you
know is needed and don't supply or even says it's needed. So I finally
get power and the motor runs (without a saw blade of course). Well one
small success.


Getting the right cable clamp and power plug was a PITA for me
too ... but how would Powermatic know what kind of plug, cable and
clamp to provide you? The size and length of cable is just
something the plant electrician would know. Many places would be
required to use armored cable or maybe even conduit.

For their main market, the plant electrician would just go to the
supply room (or reach into his tool box) and grab the right parts.

The manual also doesn't mention shimming the top to be flat either.
It's just "something you're expected to know". You're expected
to have shim stock on hand too. Maybe the manual should mention
it if Powermatic wants to target ordinary consumers.

I start looking at the bolts to hold the table wings to the saw. I
think these are the lowest grade bolts you could find, I think even
the cheap Delta saw I got rid of had better bolts holding the wings
on. I'm afraid if I use them, they will break off in the saw. So I'll
spend a couple more bucks on my two thousand dollar saw and replace
them with higher grade bolts.

You're sure that low grade bolts wouldn't do the job better? It's much
better to break the bolt than to strip the table or break an extension.

I work in aerospace and I know what quality products, good
documentation and sound packaging are. I feel you people at Powermatic
are living on your reputation, falling short of doing what is
necessary to really make a great product. It's not that hard or costs
that much to make that final step. Maybe your quality department has
been laid of to save money? I don't know but I'll tell you this, the
quality of the product, documentation and packaging I received is
shamefully poor. I sure hope you can take this constructive criticism
and improve your product, after all, you are representatives of US
manufacturing. By the way the Jet bandsaw went together great and all
parts where there and well packaged.


Let's hope that Powermatic does improve their packaging and documentation;
you're right that the cost would be trivial (if not a net savings) and
would improve the experience for at least some customers.

Regards,
Larry Penners
Boeing Satellite Systems
310-416-9383

I hope this gets resolved to your satisfaction and please let us know how
Powermatic handles your problem.

Bob S