On Jun 8, 6:19*am, Jim Yanik wrote:
"Arfa Daily" wrote :











"hr(bob) " wrote in message
...
On Jun 7, 3:36 pm, spamtrap1888 wrote:
On Jun 7, 1:10 pm, mike wrote:

We also have a time-of-use option. *You get to pay an additional
fee for the option to pay MORE for peak use and less for off-peak.
I don't have the glossy brochure handy, but last time I did the
math, my break-even point was switching 80% of my use to 4AM.

The time of use option solution is obvious. *Switch EVERYBODY to
time of
use.
Keep the peak rate the same and lower the off-peak rate.
You can raise ALL the rates later, when nobody's looking.
EVERYBODY has the incentive to smooth out the load peaks and
valleys. EVERYBODY wins...well, there'd be less in the bonus
bucket. And all those people marching down main street in
opposition to that wind farm
or transmission line could bring along their electric bill to
demonstrate that they're washing their clothes at 4AM
and cutting their total use below norm to eliminate
the need for that new energy source.

Reminds me of some 40 years ago, after the first Arab oil shock (the
Sheik Shock? When OPEC first flexed its muscles.)

All consumers/producers of energy were trying to be more efficient.
Electric companies were looking at a thing called "pumped storage."

During the wee hours, water would be pumped uphill. During the hot
afternoons, water would be let go downhill, spinning hydroelectric
turbines as it went.

Sounded like a treadmill to oblivion, but it effectively shifted
excess capacity from the middle of the night to when it was needed.-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That's still in use in some parts of Colorado.

OK. Some really interesting answers there. We use some pumped here in
the UK. Take a look at

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

and see the small dial at the top right area. *Not so many years back,
it used to be really simple here. The power was generated and
distributed by the Central Electricity Generating Board, and sold to
you by your local area electricity board. Mine, for instance was the
EMEB which was East Midlands Electricity Board. They were responsible
for billing, meter reading, house level maintenance, installations and
local distribution over quite a large geographical area. Similar
boards handled all the other areas of the country. The whole shebang
was state owned, and the price of electricity was fixed at a single
(domestic) rate for everyone everywhere. Gas was handled similarly by
a central state-owned production and distribution company, and sold to
you by your local gas board. Both the gas and electricity boards had
shops in most major towns, that sold appliances. Same production and
distribution scheme for water and sewage. It all worked really well.
You knew where you were, and payed no more or less for your supplies
than anyone else, either next door or at the other end of the country.
About the only 'complication' to this happy state of affairs was when
they introduced the 'Economy 7' tariff, where the meter got changed to
a one with a dual set of dials, and a time clock (electrically wound
clockwork) attached to switch the metering over for a period of seven
hours during the night. It was originally conceived, I believe, to
allow cheap heating via storage radiators, which would hopefully mop
up surplus production from the nuclear plants, if enough people could
be persuaded to use them.

Then, the government privatised all the utilities (and the railways),
and that's when it all went tits up. Every Johnny come lately and his
brother set up an electricity or gas or both billing company, and the
producers became 'energy wholesalers'. Now, there are literally dozens
of companies all in 'competition' - ha! - with one another to supply
your utility services. The government insists that this is a good
thing, as it gives you choice to find the supplier and tariff set
that's best for you. In reality, it's a bloody nightmare of attempting
to compare different companies' rates and schemes and bonuses and
incentives and single fuel versus dual fuel schemes and whether you
are better to have two suppliers or one and so on. I actually don't
know anyone who comes close to understanding it, liking it, or being
able to work out what is actually best for them. There are literally
hundreds - thousands possibly - of combinations. Even the way you are
billed or the way you pay, can affect it.

For instance, go take a look at

http://www.ukpower.co.uk/home_energy...ast%20Midlands
/p/nn8%204pg

and then open up some of the drop down boxes, and you'll see what I
mean. Overall, it seems to me that the last person who has actually
gained from this, is me, Joe Consumer. It looks like things are a lot
simpler in the U.S. *Actually, quite similar to how it was here. Your
rates look pretty similar, although a bit pricy at the top end. The
average cost of a unit here now, is around 12.5 pence, which is about
18 cents U.S.

Arfa

I question the "-effectively- shifted" part of that statement;
how much water can be pumped? how much power does it take? how much power
is generated from the water pumped? How much "power" can be stored?

you have to raise water quite a height to get power from it.
the losses make it not cost-effective,I suspect.