Electronics Repair (sci.electronics.repair) Discussion of repairing electronic equipment. Topics include requests for assistance, where to obtain servicing information and parts, techniques for diagnosis and repair, and annecdotes about success, failures and problems.

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Default Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...

How is electricity sold to the consumer in the U.S. ? Presumably it is by
the 'unit' of 1 kWh the same as here in the UK, but is the price constant
across the day, or is there an equivalent of the night-time economy period
that we have in the UK, where the per unit cost is significantly lower for
seven hours ? And is the pricing structure 'simple' like it used to be here,
or a minefield of different tariffs that you can choose from, that make it
so complicated that you have to go onto a price comparison site to try to
get the best deal, and even then can't be sure that you've got it right ?
And who do you buy it from ? Do you have a national supplier, or a state
supplier, or a local supplier or all of those ? Is it a massive mire of
'competition' between suppliers like it is here now ? I say 'competition' in
inverted commas, because in reality, it's actually nothing of the sort for
the most part. Do you also have 'combined' tariff suppliers who will supply
your gas as well as electricity, to further muddy the waters ? What is your
typical price now for a unit of daytime electricity ?

Just interested, as it's so ridiculously expensive and top heavy here now,
and I was wondering whether this has become the norm around the world. Any
of you Aussie boys (or girls) want to chip in with how it's done down there
? Anyone else anywhere ?

Arfa

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Default Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...

"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...
How is electricity sold to the consumer in the U.S. ? Presumably it is by
the 'unit' of 1 kWh the same as here in the UK, but is the price constant
across the day, or is there an equivalent of the night-time economy period
that we have in the UK, where the per unit cost is significantly lower for
seven hours ? And is the pricing structure 'simple' like it used to be
here, or a minefield of different tariffs that you can choose from, that
make it so complicated that you have to go onto a price comparison site to
try to get the best deal, and even then can't be sure that you've got it
right ? And who do you buy it from ? Do you have a national supplier, or a
state supplier, or a local supplier or all of those ? Is it a massive mire
of 'competition' between suppliers like it is here now ? I say
'competition' in inverted commas, because in reality, it's actually
nothing of the sort for the most part. Do you also have 'combined' tariff
suppliers who will supply your gas as well as electricity, to further
muddy the waters ? What is your typical price now for a unit of daytime
electricity ?

Just interested, as it's so ridiculously expensive and top heavy here now,
and I was wondering whether this has become the norm around the world. Any
of you Aussie boys (or girls) want to chip in with how it's done down
there ? Anyone else anywhere ?

Arfa


Not an expert here, but individual states regulate electric rates through
rate commissions. Usually rate increases go through without too much
problem - the companies just ask for more knowing they will get somewhat
less.
There are some incentives here and there, but no, you can't get pricing
based on any competition.
Not aware of tariffs as such.
Producers in one state can and do sell to other states to the detriment of
local customers. For example, California buys a lot of electricity from
Arizona.

Mark Z.

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Default Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...

On Thu, 7 Jun 2012 01:52:46 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:

How is electricity sold to the consumer in the U.S. ? Presumably it is by
the 'unit' of 1 kWh the same as here in the UK, but is the price constant
across the day, or is there an equivalent of the night-time economy period
that we have in the UK, where the per unit cost is significantly lower for
seven hours ? And is the pricing structure 'simple' like it used to be here,
or a minefield of different tariffs that you can choose from, that make it
so complicated that you have to go onto a price comparison site to try to
get the best deal, and even then can't be sure that you've got it right ?
And who do you buy it from ? Do you have a national supplier, or a state
supplier, or a local supplier or all of those ? Is it a massive mire of
'competition' between suppliers like it is here now ? I say 'competition' in
inverted commas, because in reality, it's actually nothing of the sort for
the most part. Do you also have 'combined' tariff suppliers who will supply
your gas as well as electricity, to further muddy the waters ? What is your
typical price now for a unit of daytime electricity ?

Just interested, as it's so ridiculously expensive and top heavy here now,
and I was wondering whether this has become the norm around the world. Any
of you Aussie boys (or girls) want to chip in with how it's done down there
? Anyone else anywhere ?

Arfa


That depends on where you live.

In Memphis, Tennessee, the city handles water (including sewer), gas,
and electricity.

In other areas, you may have a different supplier for each.

Various pats of the state of Georgia get electricity from Georgia
Power Company, others from a number of smaller companies and
membership co-ops.
Rates for various electricity providers in Georgia are he
http://www.psc.state.ga.us/electric/...identialrs.asp

Natural gas is provided by numerous suppliers. Some have small
service aeas, others serve large numbers of customers.
Priceing charts are he
http://www.psc.state.ga.us/gas/pricecard.asp

Other states typically have some type of public service board or
commission that regulates the utilities in the state. Those
regulating officials usually publish some type of pricing information
about the providers in the state.
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"Arfa Daily trolling as Usual "

Do you also have 'combined' tariff suppliers who will supply your gas as
well as electricity, to further muddy the waters ?



** Makes things simpler having one supplier.


What is your typical price now for a unit of daytime electricity ?



** Rates cannot change in the short term unless premises have high tech
energy meters.

Most here still have old style, analogue meters with mechanical dials.

Gas is 2.5 cents per megajoule and electricity is 21 cents per kWh.

A kWh = 3.6 megajoules.


..... Phil





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Default Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...

On Jun 6, 7:52*pm, "Arfa Daily" wrote:
How is electricity sold to the consumer in the U.S. ? Presumably it is by
the 'unit' of 1 kWh the same as here in the UK, but is the price constant
across the day, or is there an equivalent of the night-time economy period
that we have in the UK, where the per unit cost is significantly lower for
seven hours ? And is the pricing structure 'simple' like it used to be here,
or a minefield of different tariffs that you can choose from, that make it
so complicated that you have to go onto a price comparison site to try to
get the best deal, and even then can't be sure that you've got it right ?
And who do you buy it from ? Do you have a national supplier, or a state
supplier, or a local supplier or all of those ? Is it a massive mire of
'competition' between suppliers like it is here now ? I say 'competition' in
inverted commas, because in reality, it's actually nothing of the sort for
the most part. Do you also have 'combined' tariff suppliers who will supply
your gas as well as electricity, to further muddy the waters ? What is your
typical price now for a unit of daytime electricity ?

Just interested, as it's so ridiculously expensive and top heavy here now,
and I was wondering whether this has become the norm around the world. Any
of you Aussie boys (or girls) want to chip in with how it's done down there
? Anyone else anywhere ?

Arfa


50 years ago in New Jersey we had an off-peak hot water heater on a
separate meter.. Trouble was that there was an ordinary clock inside
the meter that was used to tell the time of day and set the off-peak
timing.. It was wrong from the day we moved in due to numerous power
failures, and frequently we got our hot water heated during peak
hours. Apparently they did not trust the meter readers to take of the
meter seal and reset the internal clock, because in 5 years it was
never reset by the power company.

Where I live now in suburban Chicago - Naperville, we are getting
smart meters. But there is a group of about 10% of the residents who
are opposed to the meters. Either they fear the radiation from the
meters - electrophobia - or they don't want the government to know
they are using many kilowatts of power at 3 am for their marijuana
plants grow lamps in their basementsg.


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Default Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...

On Thu, 7 Jun 2012 01:52:46 +0100, Arfa Daily wrote:
How is electricity sold to the consumer in the U.S. ?


That sounds similar to a question that was once posed to me
by someone in Malta:
"What's the weather like in the U.S.?"

Malta being smaller that a number of U.S. _cities_, and
Great Britain being smaller than most of the U.S. states.
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hr(bob) wrote:

Where I live now in suburban Chicago - Naperville, we are getting
smart meters. But there is a group of about 10% of the residents who
are opposed to the meters. Either they fear the radiation from the
meters - electrophobia - or they don't want the government to know
they are using many kilowatts of power at 3 am for their marijuana
plants grow lamps in their basementsg.



I have a friend who is an expert in BPL (broadband over power lines) and he
says that while it works, it's no longer viable as a business selling
internet access because in the real world it could never produce the speeds
that people want and get from other methods.

HOWEVER it works fine for "smart" meters, and the bandwidth they need is
so low it does not interfere with radios.

My guess is that the people running large grow lights in their basement are
more upset that they can't turn the meters upside down and have them run
backwards or bypass the meter than anything else.

It's an old trick that works on old meters, and in some places the meter
readers did not look very carefully at the seals to see they had been broken
and put back.

Since no one actually has to stand in front of the meters to read them now,
they can be placed where it is difficult or almost impossible to tamper
with them. :-)

Geoff.


--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379
To put it in terms everyone understands, the US debt is over 150 Facebooks.


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I am a BIG anti establishmentist and as such I would love to steal ANY
utility I can. Personally, you can trust me with your life, but if you
got an "inc." you better keep your eyes open.

I remember a Father/son project (not me). They ran an electric whole
house furnace on high through a rectifier to try to magnetize the
poles inside the mechanical meter. Those things are on the way out. We
also discussed that guy who layed long lines on his own property
parallel to the over head high tension wires. The government's
contention was that the power he used showed up on a meter somewhere,
but if you know transformer theory you know that is not true.

For example power flows through a wire more efficiently in conduit
because it quenches part of the magnetic field generated. Of course
this is miniscule, but still true. Well that wire on the ground was
actuing as the secondary of a transformer, as such when current was
pulled from that wire, it increased the efficiency of the power
company's transmission wire. The point of law was not that someone
else was paying for it, the problem was that he wasn't. Plain and
simple. You know in some states it is now illegal to collect rainwater
on your own property here in the land of the fee and the home of the
slave. It is certainly illegal to collect electromagnetic energy. I
think the people who made it that way should be boiled in oil for
higher treason, but that is beyond the scope of this thread of course.

Anyway, many years ago one power company came out with peak load
meters. It had the wheel and the dials, but it also had an ammeter.
The ammeter had a peak recorder, mechanical of course. It had two
needles that indicated usage. One went up and down, the other went up
and did not come down. When the meter reader came he had a key that
would reset the one needle. He recorded that peak reading and the
higher the needle was stuck on the scale, the more you paid per unit,
ALL MONTH.

Mechanical meters are on their way out. They just changed them on my
house. Now I am sure that I could flip one upside down, but being
digital I am almost positive that it can detect that. Whether it has a
way to report that I do not know. But the event would certainly be
recorded in the meter. Maybe there will be a rash of "meter thefts".
If an engineer designed a KWH meter without this capability they would
certainly be fired. If I were the power company I would fire them.

Really though, on an old mechanical meter, remember that you can sell
power back, at least in theory. In fact some people do, although there
is a push now for the government to say it literally owns the sunshine
that falls on your property here. If you do sell it back, the meter I
think has to run backward, but there is still power on their side. In
case of a power outage, if you sell back ALOT of power and they come
and don't see any solar or wind devices, they are going to want to
know where that power came from. What do you say, even if you did get
away with flipping the meter ? Generally, the best you can do is
generate enough, more thasn enough for yourself and have NO usage
whatsoever. In fact at Pearl and Fulton you can rent a business
storefront with free electricity, because it is in fron of a boneyard
that has a windmill. I bet though, that if I wanted to start a foundry
and machine shop there, the rent would be a bit higher.

They got you coming and going.

Soon, in this country they are going to require a license just to
recieve money. Mark my words. And do not start that tinfoil ****, I
can back all this up.

J
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Default Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...

On Thu, 7 Jun 2012 01:52:46 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
wrote:

How is electricity sold to the consumer in the U.S.


By the kw-hr. Rates vary by time of day, state, season, type of
service (residential, industrial, and commercial) and regulatory
gouging. There are local government owned utilizes (such as Los
Angeles Dept of Water and Power), independent investor owned utilities
(such as PG&E and Cal Edison), and power cooperatives, which buy bulk
kw-hrs, and resell the power to its members.

To keep it all looking sane, the federal government produces reports
on the cost of power that is intended to remind the power consumers of
their position in life.
http://www.eia.gov
http://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/

The May 2012 report. Note that the cost per kw-hr seems to be
missing:
http://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/pdf/epm.pdf
However, the new and improved data browser has it:
http://www.eia.gov/beta/enerdat/#/topic/7?agg=0,1&geo=g&endsec=vg&freq=M&start=200101&end= 201203&charted=1

Presumably it is by
the 'unit' of 1 kWh the same as here in the UK, but is the price constant
across the day, or is there an equivalent of the night-time economy period
that we have in the UK, where the per unit cost is significantly lower for
seven hours ?


In general, it's the same price all day. The exception are a few
large industrial plants and commercial buildings that have time-of-use
billing. The basic idea is to reduce energy use during peaks.
http://home.howstuffworks.com/timeofuse-electricity-rates.htm

And is the pricing structure 'simple' like it used to be here,
or a minefield of different tariffs that you can choose from, that make it
so complicated that you have to go onto a price comparison site to try to
get the best deal, and even then can't be sure that you've got it right ?


With normal billing, it's fairly simple. Consumer electricity is
divided into tiers. The low usage tiers are fairly economical.
However, if usage increases to tier 5, it can get really expensive.
The regular billing schedule:
http://www.pge.com/tariffs/ResElecCurrent.xls
The Time-of-Use version:
http://www.pge.com/tariffs/ResTOUCurrent.xls

And who do you buy it from ?


Usually, it's from the local regulated monopoly. In my area, it's
PG&E. However, you can buy from a wide variety of independents. The
electricity is delivered by PG&E, produced by some alternative
producer, and is billed through some other entity. This usually costs
more than PG&E, but allegedly gives the consumer that warm fuzzy
feeling from buying clean energy from an ecologically correct vendor.
http://www.calpine.com

Do you have a national supplier, or a state
supplier, or a local supplier or all of those ?


In general, local. However, many producers are large enough that they
server half of the state.

Is it a massive mire of
'competition' between suppliers like it is here now ? I say 'competition' in
inverted commas, because in reality, it's actually nothing of the sort for
the most part. Do you also have 'combined' tariff suppliers who will supply
your gas as well as electricity, to further muddy the waters ?


No confusion here. The state divides up the pie according to which
electricity producer and operator can do the best job for the state. A
few years ago, they stupidly demanded that the major delivery and
billing companies, divest themselves of all of their production
facilities. It was suppose to result in lower prices, but instead
managed to raise them. It's not as neat as I would like, but it
works.

What is your
typical price now for a unit of daytime electricity ?


It varies too much by tier and season to offer a single value. See:
http://www.pge.com/tariffs/ResElecCurrent.xls
Somewhere between $0.11 to $0.34/kw-hr.

Just interested, as it's so ridiculously expensive and top heavy here now,
and I was wondering whether this has become the norm around the world. Any
of you Aussie boys (or girls) want to chip in with how it's done down there
? Anyone else anywhere ?

Arfa

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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Default Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...

"Arfa Daily" wrote in
:

How is electricity sold to the consumer in the U.S. ? Presumably it is
by the 'unit' of 1 kWh the same as here in the UK, but is the price
constant across the day, or is there an equivalent of the night-time
economy period that we have in the UK, where the per unit cost is
significantly lower for seven hours ? And is the pricing structure
'simple' like it used to be here, or a minefield of different tariffs
that you can choose from, that make it so complicated that you have to
go onto a price comparison site to try to get the best deal, and even
then can't be sure that you've got it right ? And who do you buy it
from ? Do you have a national supplier, or a state supplier, or a
local supplier or all of those ? Is it a massive mire of 'competition'
between suppliers like it is here now ? I say 'competition' in
inverted commas, because in reality, it's actually nothing of the sort
for the most part. Do you also have 'combined' tariff suppliers who
will supply your gas as well as electricity, to further muddy the
waters ? What is your typical price now for a unit of daytime
electricity ?

Just interested, as it's so ridiculously expensive and top heavy here
now, and I was wondering whether this has become the norm around the
world. Any of you Aussie boys (or girls) want to chip in with how it's
done down there ? Anyone else anywhere ?

Arfa



in central Florida,Progress Energy,I have a standard KWH rate,and then a
higher rate for consumption over 1000 KWH. I never get anywhere near that.
I have no choice as to what utility provides my electricity,it's a
monopoly.

there's also a fuel charge,for the first 1000 KWH,and an increased rate for
every 1000 KWH over that.

energy charge= 6.275c/KWH 1st 1000 KWH.
7.366c/KWH over 1000 KWH

fuel charge= 4.86c/KWH
5.86c/KWH over 1000 KWH.
then there's the taxes and special fees for this and that.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com


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"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote in
:

hr(bob) wrote:

Where I live now in suburban Chicago - Naperville, we are getting
smart meters. But there is a group of about 10% of the residents who
are opposed to the meters. Either they fear the radiation from the
meters - electrophobia - or they don't want the government to know
they are using many kilowatts of power at 3 am for their marijuana
plants grow lamps in their basementsg.



I have a friend who is an expert in BPL (broadband over power lines)
and he says that while it works, it's no longer viable as a business
selling internet access because in the real world it could never
produce the speeds that people want and get from other methods.

HOWEVER it works fine for "smart" meters, and the bandwidth they need
is so low it does not interfere with radios.

My guess is that the people running large grow lights in their
basement are more upset that they can't turn the meters upside down
and have them run backwards or bypass the meter than anything else.

It's an old trick that works on old meters, and in some places the
meter readers did not look very carefully at the seals to see they had
been broken and put back.

Since no one actually has to stand in front of the meters to read them
now, they can be placed where it is difficult or almost impossible to
tamper with them. :-)

Geoff.



those MaryJane grow operations are often caught by the huge amount of
electric power they consume,the utility company turns them in to
authorities. Power companies track usage and keep a history of a home's
consumption over the years and easily spot large increases in power
consumption.My utility prints out on my bill the usage by month of the last
year,a nice little bargraph.
Plus,the growers often bypass the meters to not show up by their overuse,or
they run a line over to the nearest power pole or house next door and steal
power from them.

the police were trying to use thermal cameras to scan neighborhoods from
airplanes(drones??) but the courts nixed that as an invasion of privacy.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
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Default Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...

On 6/7/2012 9:21 AM, Jim Yanik wrote:
"Arfa wrote in
:

How is electricity sold to the consumer in the U.S. ? Presumably it is
by the 'unit' of 1 kWh the same as here in the UK, but is the price
constant across the day, or is there an equivalent of the night-time
economy period that we have in the UK, where the per unit cost is
significantly lower for seven hours ? And is the pricing structure
'simple' like it used to be here, or a minefield of different tariffs
that you can choose from, that make it so complicated that you have to
go onto a price comparison site to try to get the best deal, and even
then can't be sure that you've got it right ? And who do you buy it
from ? Do you have a national supplier, or a state supplier, or a
local supplier or all of those ? Is it a massive mire of 'competition'
between suppliers like it is here now ? I say 'competition' in
inverted commas, because in reality, it's actually nothing of the sort
for the most part. Do you also have 'combined' tariff suppliers who
will supply your gas as well as electricity, to further muddy the
waters ? What is your typical price now for a unit of daytime
electricity ?

Just interested, as it's so ridiculously expensive and top heavy here
now, and I was wondering whether this has become the norm around the
world. Any of you Aussie boys (or girls) want to chip in with how it's
done down there ? Anyone else anywhere ?

Arfa



in central Florida,Progress Energy,I have a standard KWH rate,and then a
higher rate for consumption over 1000 KWH. I never get anywhere near that.
I have no choice as to what utility provides my electricity,it's a
monopoly.

there's also a fuel charge,for the first 1000 KWH,and an increased rate for
every 1000 KWH over that.

energy charge= 6.275c/KWH 1st 1000 KWH.
7.366c/KWH over 1000 KWH

fuel charge= 4.86c/KWH
5.86c/KWH over 1000 KWH.
then there's the taxes and special fees for this and that.

Similar situation here.
We have an energy cost and a delivery cost plus baseline fees/taxes.
Gives 'em more ways to raise rates.

We also have the option to pay MORE for green energy. Near as I can
tell, they put your payment in the green bucket long enough to
get some energy tax incentives and a photo-op, then the excess sloshes
out into the executive bonus bucket.

We also have a time-of-use option. You get to pay an additional fee
for the option to pay MORE for peak use and less for off-peak.
I don't have the glossy brochure handy, but last time I did the math,
my break-even point was switching 80% of my use to 4AM.

The time of use option solution is obvious. Switch EVERYBODY to time of
use.
Keep the peak rate the same and lower the off-peak rate.
You can raise ALL the rates later, when nobody's looking.
EVERYBODY has the incentive to smooth out the load peaks and valleys.
EVERYBODY wins...well, there'd be less in the bonus bucket.
And all those people marching down main street in opposition to that
wind farm
or transmission line could bring along their electric bill to
demonstrate that they're washing their clothes at 4AM
and cutting their total use below norm to eliminate
the need for that new energy source.
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On Jun 7, 1:10*pm, mike wrote:

We also have a time-of-use option. *You get to pay an additional fee
for the option to pay MORE for peak use and less for off-peak.
I don't have the glossy brochure handy, but last time I did the math,
my break-even point was switching 80% of my use to 4AM.

The time of use option solution is obvious. *Switch EVERYBODY to time of
use.
Keep the peak rate the same and lower the off-peak rate.
You can raise ALL the rates later, when nobody's looking.
EVERYBODY has the incentive to smooth out the load peaks and valleys.
EVERYBODY wins...well, there'd be less in the bonus bucket.
And all those people marching down main street in opposition to that
wind farm
or transmission line could bring along their electric bill to
demonstrate that they're washing their clothes at 4AM
and cutting their total use below norm to eliminate
the need for that new energy source.


Reminds me of some 40 years ago, after the first Arab oil shock (the
Sheik Shock? When OPEC first flexed its muscles.)

All consumers/producers of energy were trying to be more efficient.
Electric companies were looking at a thing called "pumped storage."

During the wee hours, water would be pumped uphill. During the hot
afternoons, water would be let go downhill, spinning hydroelectric
turbines as it went.

Sounded like a treadmill to oblivion, but it effectively shifted
excess capacity from the middle of the night to when it was needed.
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Default Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...

On Jun 7, 3:36*pm, spamtrap1888 wrote:
On Jun 7, 1:10*pm, mike wrote:





We also have a time-of-use option. *You get to pay an additional fee
for the option to pay MORE for peak use and less for off-peak.
I don't have the glossy brochure handy, but last time I did the math,
my break-even point was switching 80% of my use to 4AM.


The time of use option solution is obvious. *Switch EVERYBODY to time of
use.
Keep the peak rate the same and lower the off-peak rate.
You can raise ALL the rates later, when nobody's looking.
EVERYBODY has the incentive to smooth out the load peaks and valleys.
EVERYBODY wins...well, there'd be less in the bonus bucket.
And all those people marching down main street in opposition to that
wind farm
or transmission line could bring along their electric bill to
demonstrate that they're washing their clothes at 4AM
and cutting their total use below norm to eliminate
the need for that new energy source.


Reminds me of some 40 years ago, after the first Arab oil shock (the
Sheik Shock? When OPEC first flexed its muscles.)

All consumers/producers of energy were trying to be more efficient.
Electric companies were looking at a thing called "pumped storage."

During the wee hours, water would be pumped uphill. During the hot
afternoons, water would be let go downhill, spinning hydroelectric
turbines as it went.

Sounded like a treadmill to oblivion, but it effectively shifted
excess capacity from the middle of the night to when it was needed.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


That's still in use in some parts of Colorado.
  #15   Report Post  
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Posts: 6,772
Default Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...



"hr(bob) " wrote in message
...
On Jun 7, 3:36 pm, spamtrap1888 wrote:
On Jun 7, 1:10 pm, mike wrote:





We also have a time-of-use option. You get to pay an additional fee
for the option to pay MORE for peak use and less for off-peak.
I don't have the glossy brochure handy, but last time I did the math,
my break-even point was switching 80% of my use to 4AM.


The time of use option solution is obvious. Switch EVERYBODY to time
of
use.
Keep the peak rate the same and lower the off-peak rate.
You can raise ALL the rates later, when nobody's looking.
EVERYBODY has the incentive to smooth out the load peaks and valleys.
EVERYBODY wins...well, there'd be less in the bonus bucket.
And all those people marching down main street in opposition to that
wind farm
or transmission line could bring along their electric bill to
demonstrate that they're washing their clothes at 4AM
and cutting their total use below norm to eliminate
the need for that new energy source.


Reminds me of some 40 years ago, after the first Arab oil shock (the
Sheik Shock? When OPEC first flexed its muscles.)

All consumers/producers of energy were trying to be more efficient.
Electric companies were looking at a thing called "pumped storage."

During the wee hours, water would be pumped uphill. During the hot
afternoons, water would be let go downhill, spinning hydroelectric
turbines as it went.

Sounded like a treadmill to oblivion, but it effectively shifted
excess capacity from the middle of the night to when it was needed.- Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


That's still in use in some parts of Colorado.


OK. Some really interesting answers there. We use some pumped here in the
UK. Take a look at

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

and see the small dial at the top right area. Not so many years back, it
used to be really simple here. The power was generated and distributed by
the Central Electricity Generating Board, and sold to you by your local area
electricity board. Mine, for instance was the EMEB which was East Midlands
Electricity Board. They were responsible for billing, meter reading, house
level maintenance, installations and local distribution over quite a large
geographical area. Similar boards handled all the other areas of the
country. The whole shebang was state owned, and the price of electricity was
fixed at a single (domestic) rate for everyone everywhere. Gas was handled
similarly by a central state-owned production and distribution company, and
sold to you by your local gas board. Both the gas and electricity boards had
shops in most major towns, that sold appliances. Same production and
distribution scheme for water and sewage. It all worked really well. You
knew where you were, and payed no more or less for your supplies than anyone
else, either next door or at the other end of the country. About the only
'complication' to this happy state of affairs was when they introduced the
'Economy 7' tariff, where the meter got changed to a one with a dual set of
dials, and a time clock (electrically wound clockwork) attached to switch
the metering over for a period of seven hours during the night. It was
originally conceived, I believe, to allow cheap heating via storage
radiators, which would hopefully mop up surplus production from the nuclear
plants, if enough people could be persuaded to use them.

Then, the government privatised all the utilities (and the railways), and
that's when it all went tits up. Every Johnny come lately and his brother
set up an electricity or gas or both billing company, and the producers
became 'energy wholesalers'. Now, there are literally dozens of companies
all in 'competition' - ha! - with one another to supply your utility
services. The government insists that this is a good thing, as it gives you
choice to find the supplier and tariff set that's best for you. In reality,
it's a bloody nightmare of attempting to compare different companies' rates
and schemes and bonuses and incentives and single fuel versus dual fuel
schemes and whether you are better to have two suppliers or one and so on. I
actually don't know anyone who comes close to understanding it, liking it,
or being able to work out what is actually best for them. There are
literally hundreds - thousands possibly - of combinations. Even the way you
are billed or the way you pay, can affect it.

For instance, go take a look at

http://www.ukpower.co.uk/home_energy...ds/p/nn8%204pg

and then open up some of the drop down boxes, and you'll see what I mean.
Overall, it seems to me that the last person who has actually gained from
this, is me, Joe Consumer. It looks like things are a lot simpler in the
U.S. Actually, quite similar to how it was here. Your rates look pretty
similar, although a bit pricy at the top end. The average cost of a unit
here now, is around 12.5 pence, which is about 18 cents U.S.

Arfa



  #16   Report Post  
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Posts: 412
Default Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...

On Jun 7, 9:25*pm, "Arfa Daily" wrote:
"hr(bob) " wrote in message

...









On Jun 7, 3:36 pm, spamtrap1888 wrote:
On Jun 7, 1:10 pm, mike wrote:


We also have a time-of-use option. *You get to pay an additional fee
for the option to pay MORE for peak use and less for off-peak.
I don't have the glossy brochure handy, but last time I did the math,
my break-even point was switching 80% of my use to 4AM.


The time of use option solution is obvious. *Switch EVERYBODY to time
of
use.
Keep the peak rate the same and lower the off-peak rate.
You can raise ALL the rates later, when nobody's looking.
EVERYBODY has the incentive to smooth out the load peaks and valleys..
EVERYBODY wins...well, there'd be less in the bonus bucket.
And all those people marching down main street in opposition to that
wind farm
or transmission line could bring along their electric bill to
demonstrate that they're washing their clothes at 4AM
and cutting their total use below norm to eliminate
the need for that new energy source.


Reminds me of some 40 years ago, after the first Arab oil shock (the
Sheik Shock? When OPEC first flexed its muscles.)


All consumers/producers of energy were trying to be more efficient.
Electric companies were looking at a thing called "pumped storage."


During the wee hours, water would be pumped uphill. During the hot
afternoons, water would be let go downhill, spinning hydroelectric
turbines as it went.


Sounded like a treadmill to oblivion, but it effectively shifted
excess capacity from the middle of the night to when it was needed.- Hide
quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


That's still in use in some parts of Colorado.


OK. Some really interesting answers there. We use some pumped here in the
UK. Take a look at

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

and see the small dial at the top right area. *Not so many years back, it
used to be really simple here. The power was generated and distributed by
the Central Electricity Generating Board, and sold to you by your local area
electricity board. Mine, for instance was the EMEB which was East Midlands
Electricity Board. They were responsible for billing, meter reading, house
level maintenance, installations and local distribution over quite a large
geographical area. Similar boards handled all the other areas of the
country. The whole shebang was state owned, and the price of electricity was
fixed at a single (domestic) rate for everyone everywhere. Gas was handled
similarly by a central state-owned production and distribution company, and
sold to you by your local gas board. Both the gas and electricity boards had
shops in most major towns, that sold appliances. Same production and
distribution scheme for water and sewage. It all worked really well. You
knew where you were, and payed no more or less for your supplies than anyone
else, either next door or at the other end of the country. About the only
'complication' to this happy state of affairs was when they introduced the
'Economy 7' tariff, where the meter got changed to a one with a dual set of
dials, and a time clock (electrically wound clockwork) attached to switch
the metering over for a period of seven hours during the night. It was
originally conceived, I believe, to allow cheap heating via storage
radiators, which would hopefully mop up surplus production from the nuclear
plants, if enough people could be persuaded to use them.

Then, the government privatised all the utilities (and the railways), and
that's when it all went tits up. Every Johnny come lately and his brother
set up an electricity or gas or both billing company, and the producers
became 'energy wholesalers'. Now, there are literally dozens of companies
all in 'competition' - ha! - with one another to supply your utility
services. The government insists that this is a good thing, as it gives you
choice to find the supplier and tariff set that's best for you. In reality,
it's a bloody nightmare of attempting to compare different companies' rates
and schemes and bonuses and incentives and single fuel versus dual fuel
schemes and whether you are better to have two suppliers or one and so on.. I
actually don't know anyone who comes close to understanding it, liking it,
or being able to work out what is actually best for them. There are
literally hundreds - thousands possibly - of combinations. Even the way you
are billed or the way you pay, can affect it.

For instance, go take a look at

http://www.ukpower.co.uk/home_energy...-East%20Midlan...

and then open up some of the drop down boxes, and you'll see what I mean.
Overall, it seems to me that the last person who has actually gained from
this, is me, Joe Consumer. It looks like things are a lot simpler in the
U.S. *Actually, quite similar to how it was here. Your rates look pretty
similar, although a bit pricy at the top end. The average cost of a unit
here now, is around 12.5 pence, which is about 18 cents U.S.

Arfa


Here in New Hampshire we now have a "choice" who we get our power
from. However you would be hard pressed to find any significant
savings from any of them. The power company offers residential rate
and Business rate. These are set by the PUC, (Public Utilities
Commission) who as far as I can tell is in the pockets of all the
utilities. It's fairly obvious that the business rate is just a
license to screw you even harder. (This goes for telephone service as
well. But don't get me started on that). And in addition if the power
company feels that your residence is operating on a business level you
are surcharged for that too.

For example if you own a factory you have the business rate. And you
start up a large motor that has a large starting current, you are
assessed a "demand" charge. This is a surcharge on top of your normal
rate for, (and this is how it was explained to me) for the power
company's "ability" to meet your immediate "demand". What a load o
bull****!

I have a friend who owns a horse farm. This is a hobby and definitely
his residence. His barn is far removed from the house and so there is
a very large pump that brings water to the barn. When this water pump
comes on there is a momentary large starting current. Somehow they
have seen fit, (and have gotten away with it) to levy the demand
charge on him, a residential customer too.

Several years ago they built Seabrook Station, New Hampshire's first
nuclear power plant. We were assured of cheap efficient electricity
for years to come. Well guess what? The rates have steadily gone up
since it went on line, with no end in sight. And with all the itemized
charges for this and that on your bill now it's virtually impossible
to make any sense out of it anymore. So like another tax that can't be
avoided, we just pay it.

So now they're talking about running a transmission line down from
Canada. There is apparently cheap hydro up there, (Niagra Falls), and
once again they say we can really save some money with the completion
of this project. I have no doubts that the only ones who will benefit
from this fiasco will be the investor. The rate payers will continue
to be "raped".

I guess that the alternative is to just go right back to friggin 1840
and live like an Amish farmer. As ****ed off as I am though I'm not
ready to take it to that extreme, yet. Lenny
  #17   Report Post  
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Posts: 3,103
Default Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...

"Arfa Daily" wrote in
:



"hr(bob) " wrote in message
...
On Jun 7, 3:36 pm, spamtrap1888 wrote:
On Jun 7, 1:10 pm, mike wrote:





We also have a time-of-use option. You get to pay an additional
fee for the option to pay MORE for peak use and less for off-peak.
I don't have the glossy brochure handy, but last time I did the
math, my break-even point was switching 80% of my use to 4AM.

The time of use option solution is obvious. Switch EVERYBODY to
time of
use.
Keep the peak rate the same and lower the off-peak rate.
You can raise ALL the rates later, when nobody's looking.
EVERYBODY has the incentive to smooth out the load peaks and
valleys. EVERYBODY wins...well, there'd be less in the bonus
bucket. And all those people marching down main street in
opposition to that wind farm
or transmission line could bring along their electric bill to
demonstrate that they're washing their clothes at 4AM
and cutting their total use below norm to eliminate
the need for that new energy source.

Reminds me of some 40 years ago, after the first Arab oil shock (the
Sheik Shock? When OPEC first flexed its muscles.)

All consumers/producers of energy were trying to be more efficient.
Electric companies were looking at a thing called "pumped storage."

During the wee hours, water would be pumped uphill. During the hot
afternoons, water would be let go downhill, spinning hydroelectric
turbines as it went.

Sounded like a treadmill to oblivion, but it effectively shifted
excess capacity from the middle of the night to when it was needed.-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


That's still in use in some parts of Colorado.


OK. Some really interesting answers there. We use some pumped here in
the UK. Take a look at

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

and see the small dial at the top right area. Not so many years back,
it used to be really simple here. The power was generated and
distributed by the Central Electricity Generating Board, and sold to
you by your local area electricity board. Mine, for instance was the
EMEB which was East Midlands Electricity Board. They were responsible
for billing, meter reading, house level maintenance, installations and
local distribution over quite a large geographical area. Similar
boards handled all the other areas of the country. The whole shebang
was state owned, and the price of electricity was fixed at a single
(domestic) rate for everyone everywhere. Gas was handled similarly by
a central state-owned production and distribution company, and sold to
you by your local gas board. Both the gas and electricity boards had
shops in most major towns, that sold appliances. Same production and
distribution scheme for water and sewage. It all worked really well.
You knew where you were, and payed no more or less for your supplies
than anyone else, either next door or at the other end of the country.
About the only 'complication' to this happy state of affairs was when
they introduced the 'Economy 7' tariff, where the meter got changed to
a one with a dual set of dials, and a time clock (electrically wound
clockwork) attached to switch the metering over for a period of seven
hours during the night. It was originally conceived, I believe, to
allow cheap heating via storage radiators, which would hopefully mop
up surplus production from the nuclear plants, if enough people could
be persuaded to use them.

Then, the government privatised all the utilities (and the railways),
and that's when it all went tits up. Every Johnny come lately and his
brother set up an electricity or gas or both billing company, and the
producers became 'energy wholesalers'. Now, there are literally dozens
of companies all in 'competition' - ha! - with one another to supply
your utility services. The government insists that this is a good
thing, as it gives you choice to find the supplier and tariff set
that's best for you. In reality, it's a bloody nightmare of attempting
to compare different companies' rates and schemes and bonuses and
incentives and single fuel versus dual fuel schemes and whether you
are better to have two suppliers or one and so on. I actually don't
know anyone who comes close to understanding it, liking it, or being
able to work out what is actually best for them. There are literally
hundreds - thousands possibly - of combinations. Even the way you are
billed or the way you pay, can affect it.

For instance, go take a look at

http://www.ukpower.co.uk/home_energy...ast%20Midlands
/p/nn8%204pg

and then open up some of the drop down boxes, and you'll see what I
mean. Overall, it seems to me that the last person who has actually
gained from this, is me, Joe Consumer. It looks like things are a lot
simpler in the U.S. Actually, quite similar to how it was here. Your
rates look pretty similar, although a bit pricy at the top end. The
average cost of a unit here now, is around 12.5 pence, which is about
18 cents U.S.

Arfa



I question the "-effectively- shifted" part of that statement;
how much water can be pumped? how much power does it take? how much power
is generated from the water pumped? How much "power" can be stored?

you have to raise water quite a height to get power from it.
the losses make it not cost-effective,I suspect.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
  #18   Report Post  
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Posts: 314
Default Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...

On Jun 8, 6:19*am, Jim Yanik wrote:
"Arfa Daily" wrote :











"hr(bob) " wrote in message
...
On Jun 7, 3:36 pm, spamtrap1888 wrote:
On Jun 7, 1:10 pm, mike wrote:


We also have a time-of-use option. *You get to pay an additional
fee for the option to pay MORE for peak use and less for off-peak.
I don't have the glossy brochure handy, but last time I did the
math, my break-even point was switching 80% of my use to 4AM.


The time of use option solution is obvious. *Switch EVERYBODY to
time of
use.
Keep the peak rate the same and lower the off-peak rate.
You can raise ALL the rates later, when nobody's looking.
EVERYBODY has the incentive to smooth out the load peaks and
valleys. EVERYBODY wins...well, there'd be less in the bonus
bucket. And all those people marching down main street in
opposition to that wind farm
or transmission line could bring along their electric bill to
demonstrate that they're washing their clothes at 4AM
and cutting their total use below norm to eliminate
the need for that new energy source.


Reminds me of some 40 years ago, after the first Arab oil shock (the
Sheik Shock? When OPEC first flexed its muscles.)


All consumers/producers of energy were trying to be more efficient.
Electric companies were looking at a thing called "pumped storage."


During the wee hours, water would be pumped uphill. During the hot
afternoons, water would be let go downhill, spinning hydroelectric
turbines as it went.


Sounded like a treadmill to oblivion, but it effectively shifted
excess capacity from the middle of the night to when it was needed.-
Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


That's still in use in some parts of Colorado.


OK. Some really interesting answers there. We use some pumped here in
the UK. Take a look at


http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/


and see the small dial at the top right area. *Not so many years back,
it used to be really simple here. The power was generated and
distributed by the Central Electricity Generating Board, and sold to
you by your local area electricity board. Mine, for instance was the
EMEB which was East Midlands Electricity Board. They were responsible
for billing, meter reading, house level maintenance, installations and
local distribution over quite a large geographical area. Similar
boards handled all the other areas of the country. The whole shebang
was state owned, and the price of electricity was fixed at a single
(domestic) rate for everyone everywhere. Gas was handled similarly by
a central state-owned production and distribution company, and sold to
you by your local gas board. Both the gas and electricity boards had
shops in most major towns, that sold appliances. Same production and
distribution scheme for water and sewage. It all worked really well.
You knew where you were, and payed no more or less for your supplies
than anyone else, either next door or at the other end of the country.
About the only 'complication' to this happy state of affairs was when
they introduced the 'Economy 7' tariff, where the meter got changed to
a one with a dual set of dials, and a time clock (electrically wound
clockwork) attached to switch the metering over for a period of seven
hours during the night. It was originally conceived, I believe, to
allow cheap heating via storage radiators, which would hopefully mop
up surplus production from the nuclear plants, if enough people could
be persuaded to use them.


Then, the government privatised all the utilities (and the railways),
and that's when it all went tits up. Every Johnny come lately and his
brother set up an electricity or gas or both billing company, and the
producers became 'energy wholesalers'. Now, there are literally dozens
of companies all in 'competition' - ha! - with one another to supply
your utility services. The government insists that this is a good
thing, as it gives you choice to find the supplier and tariff set
that's best for you. In reality, it's a bloody nightmare of attempting
to compare different companies' rates and schemes and bonuses and
incentives and single fuel versus dual fuel schemes and whether you
are better to have two suppliers or one and so on. I actually don't
know anyone who comes close to understanding it, liking it, or being
able to work out what is actually best for them. There are literally
hundreds - thousands possibly - of combinations. Even the way you are
billed or the way you pay, can affect it.


For instance, go take a look at


http://www.ukpower.co.uk/home_energy...ast%20Midlands
/p/nn8%204pg


and then open up some of the drop down boxes, and you'll see what I
mean. Overall, it seems to me that the last person who has actually
gained from this, is me, Joe Consumer. It looks like things are a lot
simpler in the U.S. *Actually, quite similar to how it was here. Your
rates look pretty similar, although a bit pricy at the top end. The
average cost of a unit here now, is around 12.5 pence, which is about
18 cents U.S.


Arfa


I question the "-effectively- shifted" part of that statement;
how much water can be pumped? how much power does it take? how much power
is generated from the water pumped? How much "power" can be stored?

you have to raise water quite a height to get power from it.
the losses make it not cost-effective,I suspect.


  #19   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 314
Default Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...

On Jun 8, 6:19*am, Jim Yanik wrote:
"Arfa Daily" wrote :











"hr(bob) " wrote in message
...
On Jun 7, 3:36 pm, spamtrap1888 wrote:
On Jun 7, 1:10 pm, mike wrote:


We also have a time-of-use option. *You get to pay an additional
fee for the option to pay MORE for peak use and less for off-peak.
I don't have the glossy brochure handy, but last time I did the
math, my break-even point was switching 80% of my use to 4AM.


The time of use option solution is obvious. *Switch EVERYBODY to
time of
use.
Keep the peak rate the same and lower the off-peak rate.
You can raise ALL the rates later, when nobody's looking.
EVERYBODY has the incentive to smooth out the load peaks and
valleys. EVERYBODY wins...well, there'd be less in the bonus
bucket. And all those people marching down main street in
opposition to that wind farm
or transmission line could bring along their electric bill to
demonstrate that they're washing their clothes at 4AM
and cutting their total use below norm to eliminate
the need for that new energy source.


Reminds me of some 40 years ago, after the first Arab oil shock (the
Sheik Shock? When OPEC first flexed its muscles.)


All consumers/producers of energy were trying to be more efficient.
Electric companies were looking at a thing called "pumped storage."


During the wee hours, water would be pumped uphill. During the hot
afternoons, water would be let go downhill, spinning hydroelectric
turbines as it went.


Sounded like a treadmill to oblivion, but it effectively shifted
excess capacity from the middle of the night to when it was needed.-
Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


That's still in use in some parts of Colorado.


I question the "-effectively- shifted" part of that statement;
how much water can be pumped? how much power does it take? how much power
is generated from the water pumped? How much "power" can be stored?

you have to raise water quite a height to get power from it.
the losses make it not cost-effective,I suspect.


Now that I am an Instant Google Expert: You have to compare pumped
storage to the other possible solutions: bigger base load power plants
which generate excess electricity all the time, or peaker plants which
take a while to put on line. Pumped storage plants can start producing
electricity within two minutes, and can operate at full power within
30 minutes, according to the wikipedia article about the Ludington, MI
pumped storage station, which pumps Lake Michigan water up to the top
of the dunes.

One comparative disadvantage of fossil-fueled peakers is that they
take a while to deliver power in phase.
  #20   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
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Posts: 634
Default Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...

On 6/8/2012 6:19 AM, Jim Yanik wrote:
"Arfa wrote in
:



"hr(bob) wrote in message
...
On Jun 7, 3:36 pm, wrote:
On Jun 7, 1:10 pm, wrote:





We also have a time-of-use option. You get to pay an additional
fee for the option to pay MORE for peak use and less for off-peak.
I don't have the glossy brochure handy, but last time I did the
math, my break-even point was switching 80% of my use to 4AM.

The time of use option solution is obvious. Switch EVERYBODY to
time of
use.
Keep the peak rate the same and lower the off-peak rate.
You can raise ALL the rates later, when nobody's looking.
EVERYBODY has the incentive to smooth out the load peaks and
valleys. EVERYBODY wins...well, there'd be less in the bonus
bucket. And all those people marching down main street in
opposition to that wind farm
or transmission line could bring along their electric bill to
demonstrate that they're washing their clothes at 4AM
and cutting their total use below norm to eliminate
the need for that new energy source.

Reminds me of some 40 years ago, after the first Arab oil shock (the
Sheik Shock? When OPEC first flexed its muscles.)

All consumers/producers of energy were trying to be more efficient.
Electric companies were looking at a thing called "pumped storage."

During the wee hours, water would be pumped uphill. During the hot
afternoons, water would be let go downhill, spinning hydroelectric
turbines as it went.

Sounded like a treadmill to oblivion, but it effectively shifted
excess capacity from the middle of the night to when it was needed.-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That's still in use in some parts of Colorado.


OK. Some really interesting answers there. We use some pumped here in
the UK. Take a look at

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

and see the small dial at the top right area. Not so many years back,
it used to be really simple here. The power was generated and
distributed by the Central Electricity Generating Board, and sold to
you by your local area electricity board. Mine, for instance was the
EMEB which was East Midlands Electricity Board. They were responsible
for billing, meter reading, house level maintenance, installations and
local distribution over quite a large geographical area. Similar
boards handled all the other areas of the country. The whole shebang
was state owned, and the price of electricity was fixed at a single
(domestic) rate for everyone everywhere. Gas was handled similarly by
a central state-owned production and distribution company, and sold to
you by your local gas board. Both the gas and electricity boards had
shops in most major towns, that sold appliances. Same production and
distribution scheme for water and sewage. It all worked really well.
You knew where you were, and payed no more or less for your supplies
than anyone else, either next door or at the other end of the country.
About the only 'complication' to this happy state of affairs was when
they introduced the 'Economy 7' tariff, where the meter got changed to
a one with a dual set of dials, and a time clock (electrically wound
clockwork) attached to switch the metering over for a period of seven
hours during the night. It was originally conceived, I believe, to
allow cheap heating via storage radiators, which would hopefully mop
up surplus production from the nuclear plants, if enough people could
be persuaded to use them.

Then, the government privatised all the utilities (and the railways),
and that's when it all went tits up. Every Johnny come lately and his
brother set up an electricity or gas or both billing company, and the
producers became 'energy wholesalers'. Now, there are literally dozens
of companies all in 'competition' - ha! - with one another to supply
your utility services. The government insists that this is a good
thing, as it gives you choice to find the supplier and tariff set
that's best for you. In reality, it's a bloody nightmare of attempting
to compare different companies' rates and schemes and bonuses and
incentives and single fuel versus dual fuel schemes and whether you
are better to have two suppliers or one and so on. I actually don't
know anyone who comes close to understanding it, liking it, or being
able to work out what is actually best for them. There are literally
hundreds - thousands possibly - of combinations. Even the way you are
billed or the way you pay, can affect it.

For instance, go take a look at

http://www.ukpower.co.uk/home_energy...ast%20Midlands
/p/nn8%204pg

and then open up some of the drop down boxes, and you'll see what I
mean. Overall, it seems to me that the last person who has actually
gained from this, is me, Joe Consumer. It looks like things are a lot
simpler in the U.S. Actually, quite similar to how it was here. Your
rates look pretty similar, although a bit pricy at the top end. The
average cost of a unit here now, is around 12.5 pence, which is about
18 cents U.S.

Arfa



I question the "-effectively- shifted" part of that statement;
how much water can be pumped? how much power does it take? how much power
is generated from the water pumped? How much "power" can be stored?

you have to raise water quite a height to get power from it.
the losses make it not cost-effective,I suspect.


Some of the renewable energy sources are use-it-or-lose-it.
Solar, wind, tidal...
Efficiency of the storage is less important when the alternative is zero.


  #21   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 454
Default Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...

On Fri, 8 Jun 2012 07:27:25 -0700 (PDT), spamtrap1888
wrote:

On Jun 8, 6:19*am, Jim Yanik wrote:
"Arfa Daily" wrote :











"hr(bob) " wrote in message
...
On Jun 7, 3:36 pm, spamtrap1888 wrote:
On Jun 7, 1:10 pm, mike wrote:


We also have a time-of-use option. *You get to pay an additional
fee for the option to pay MORE for peak use and less for off-peak.
I don't have the glossy brochure handy, but last time I did the
math, my break-even point was switching 80% of my use to 4AM.


The time of use option solution is obvious. *Switch EVERYBODY to
time of
use.
Keep the peak rate the same and lower the off-peak rate.
You can raise ALL the rates later, when nobody's looking.
EVERYBODY has the incentive to smooth out the load peaks and
valleys. EVERYBODY wins...well, there'd be less in the bonus
bucket. And all those people marching down main street in
opposition to that wind farm
or transmission line could bring along their electric bill to
demonstrate that they're washing their clothes at 4AM
and cutting their total use below norm to eliminate
the need for that new energy source.


Reminds me of some 40 years ago, after the first Arab oil shock (the
Sheik Shock? When OPEC first flexed its muscles.)


All consumers/producers of energy were trying to be more efficient.
Electric companies were looking at a thing called "pumped storage."


During the wee hours, water would be pumped uphill. During the hot
afternoons, water would be let go downhill, spinning hydroelectric
turbines as it went.


Sounded like a treadmill to oblivion, but it effectively shifted
excess capacity from the middle of the night to when it was needed.-
Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


That's still in use in some parts of Colorado.


I question the "-effectively- shifted" part of that statement;
how much water can be pumped? how much power does it take? how much power
is generated from the water pumped? How much "power" can be stored?

you have to raise water quite a height to get power from it.
the losses make it not cost-effective,I suspect.


Now that I am an Instant Google Expert: You have to compare pumped
storage to the other possible solutions: bigger base load power plants
which generate excess electricity all the time, or peaker plants which
take a while to put on line. Pumped storage plants can start producing
electricity within two minutes, and can operate at full power within
30 minutes, according to the wikipedia article about the Ludington, MI
pumped storage station, which pumps Lake Michigan water up to the top
of the dunes.

One comparative disadvantage of fossil-fueled peakers is that they
take a while to deliver power in phase.


Good so far. From what i have read it is not too difficult to store
several hundred acre-feet of water elevated by several hundred feet in
some locations. The mechanical efficiency of storing energy this way runs
in the vicinity of 85 percent. You easily get mgh energy storage from
these figures.

?-)
  #22   Report Post  
Posted to sci.electronics.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 412
Default Buying lectrickery in the U.S. - bit OT ...

On Jun 8, 9:29*pm, josephkk wrote:
On Fri, 8 Jun 2012 07:27:25 -0700 (PDT), spamtrap1888









wrote:
On Jun 8, 6:19*am, Jim Yanik wrote:
"Arfa Daily" wrote :


"hr(bob) " wrote in message
....
On Jun 7, 3:36 pm, spamtrap1888 wrote:
On Jun 7, 1:10 pm, mike wrote:


We also have a time-of-use option. *You get to pay an additional
fee for the option to pay MORE for peak use and less for off-peak.
I don't have the glossy brochure handy, but last time I did the
math, my break-even point was switching 80% of my use to 4AM.


The time of use option solution is obvious. *Switch EVERYBODY to
time of
use.
Keep the peak rate the same and lower the off-peak rate.
You can raise ALL the rates later, when nobody's looking.
EVERYBODY has the incentive to smooth out the load peaks and
valleys. EVERYBODY wins...well, there'd be less in the bonus
bucket. And all those people marching down main street in
opposition to that wind farm
or transmission line could bring along their electric bill to
demonstrate that they're washing their clothes at 4AM
and cutting their total use below norm to eliminate
the need for that new energy source.


Reminds me of some 40 years ago, after the first Arab oil shock (the
Sheik Shock? When OPEC first flexed its muscles.)


All consumers/producers of energy were trying to be more efficient..
Electric companies were looking at a thing called "pumped storage."


During the wee hours, water would be pumped uphill. During the hot
afternoons, water would be let go downhill, spinning hydroelectric
turbines as it went.


Sounded like a treadmill to oblivion, but it effectively shifted
excess capacity from the middle of the night to when it was needed..-
Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


That's still in use in some parts of Colorado.


I question the "-effectively- shifted" part of that statement;
how much water can be pumped? how much power does it take? how much power
is generated from the water pumped? How much "power" can be stored?


you have to raise water quite a height to get power from it.
the losses make it not cost-effective,I suspect.


Now that I am an Instant Google Expert: You have to compare pumped
storage to the other possible solutions: bigger base load power plants
which generate excess electricity all the time, or peaker plants which
take a while to put on line. Pumped storage plants can start producing
electricity within two minutes, and can operate at full power within
30 minutes, according to the wikipedia article about the Ludington, MI
pumped storage station, which pumps Lake Michigan water up to the top
of the dunes.


One comparative disadvantage of fossil-fueled peakers is that they
take a while to deliver power in phase.


Good so far. *From what i have read it is not too difficult to store
several hundred acre-feet of water elevated by several hundred feet in
some locations. *The mechanical efficiency of storing energy this way runs
in the vicinity of 85 percent. *You easily get mgh energy storage from
these figures.

?-)


I wasn't talking about pumping water to store it. This water is just
for the horses. Lenny
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