On Tue, 30 Mar 2010 02:18:27 -0500, "Don Foreman"
wrote:


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:17:37 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:25:44 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Ignoramus11443 wrote:

That's a very enduring design, yes. I actually own a Beretta and love
it. How does that .45 handle, is the recoil a little too much?

i

I prefer 9mm personally, mostly for the high capacity. I have shot
friend's .45s many times during the same shooting sessions as my 9mms
and really didn't notice much difference in recoil. Given my tendency
for carpal tunnel issues I would think I'd notice. I do notice a
difference in recoil between my two S&W 9mms, one being metal frame and
one being plastic frame with about 12oz weight difference and otherwise
with the same barrel length and shooting the same ammunition. The
lighter plastic frame 9mm has more pronounced recoil as you would
expect
with the lower weight / mass.

High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking
you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a
better tool?

Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real
possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario.

Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting
situation...2.5 G

Average range, 7 yrds

I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can
actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be
said of the 9mm

Gunner

That can't be said of the .40 or .45 either.

It can, 98% of the time...but only 61% of the time with a 9mikemike.

The probability of a one-shot
stop is higher with the more powerful rounds, but it's far from a certainty.
Shot placement is far more important
than caliber or power. A .22 rimfire hollowpoint is a one-shot drop if the
shot is perfectly placed. Ask any assassin. My dad was killed with one shot
from a .22 rimfire.

A shotgun with #4 buck gets 'er done because of the high probability of one
of the coupla dozen little 24-caliber (6 mm) balls hitting something that
will result in instant incapacitation. 6mm is smaler than 9mm. Bigger
ammo does more damage per wound channel but instant drop requires that
damage be done to very specific locations. Handgun ammo, unlike much higher
velocity smaller caliber 5.62 mm (.223 caliber) rifle ammo, does not
deliver sufficent hydrostatic shock to matter, so a stop/drop hit must
impact spine, brain, heart, or other organ that will result in instant
shock, or pelvis that can result in incapacitating pain but that's iffy with
drug-crazed assailants who feel no pain.

Indeed. Though packing a shotgun in a shoulder rig is problematic.

Hitting such key small locations, short of head shots, is well beyond the
marksmanship capability of most shooters, perhaps all shooters in a stress
sit. I can repeatedly hit the face of an assailant at 7 yards but there's
no way I'd bet I could hit his spine when we're both moving, in dark or low
light, stoked with adrenaline.

As I told Pete C. Though center of mass is relatively easy based on my
experience with amatures who had to shoot in self defense.

Ability to accurately place several shots very rapidly is much more likely
to drop an assailant than having a bigger gun. I did say accurately, but
I'm not talking bullseye here but several rounds to COM and a couple to head
at short range. Self defense is a dynamic, adrenaline-charged
scared-****less short-range activity, not a military activity done by young
men in a high state of training.
I assert that the best tactic is to use a weapon/caliber that the
individual, young or old, male or female, big or small, strong or weak,
liberal or conservative, can best deliver most fire with workable accuracy
in a very few seconds of time. That's why nobody disputes the
effectiveness of a shotgun or a full auto rifle.

Most occasional shooters can deliver accurate rapid fire much better with a
9mm than they can with a .40 or .45, and the nines hold more ammo.

Occasional shooters? Oh..you mean people who shouldnt be carrying a
deadly weapon?

A .380 is a one-shot drop if shot placement is right. A .380 with 7 rounds
fired rapidly enough to hit at point blank range has far higher probability
of stop than one hit from a .45ACP. The objective is to stop, no bonus for
doing it in one shot. Get it done with as many shots as it takes,
accurately delivered to drop the assailant.

The problem with that is..he may not let you shoot him a bunch of times
before he crushes your skull with a rock.

That's why I assert that the .380 one might carry is far more defense than a
.45 one leaves at home. It's a moot point for those who routinely carry a
.45 and can shoot it well. I do shoot a .45 respectably but I don't care to
pack one though I do have a holster for my Colt Officer's and my instructor
in the CQB (close quarters battle) training I did with that pistol thought
I shot it respectably.
I don't even pack a .380 most days.

We've had this joust before, Gunner. Not saying you're wrong , just sayin'
that the solution you find right for you may not be right for others.

True enough.

You stick to the mouse guns and Ill stick to the man stoppers I dont
have to shoot a guy 9 times with.

Deal?

Gunner








"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost