Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #81   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,562
Default Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design

"Ed Huntress" wrote:


Yeah. Here's one of their examples:

"Me and Jen were teabagging last night when her mom walked in. Awkward."

Better luck next time, Chris.



Lets try wikipedia. TMI BTW.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
  #82   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 681
Default Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design

Buerste wrote:
"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
Monday, March 29, is the 99th anniversary of the legendary 1911
semiautomatic pistol designed by John Moses Browning.

snip

JB had a gift! I have a few of his designs and I appreciate them. I have a
P08 that is truely a work of art but hasn't the practicality, durability or
ease of mfg. of the 1911. The bad side is that many of my handguns,
especially the P08 are now too valuable as "collector" pieces that I'm
afraid to use them. The last appraisal I had on the P08 was over $4k, I
wish I had one to shoot!


Shooter grade P08s are readily available for under $1000
Indulge yourself !
  #83   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,529
Default Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design


"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" wrote:


Yeah. Here's one of their examples:

"Me and Jen were teabagging last night when her mom walked in. Awkward."

Better luck next time, Chris.



Lets try wikipedia. TMI BTW.

Wes


And what does it say, Wes?

--
Ed Huntress


  #84   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,530
Default Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design

She can tell her grand kids when they ask "Gamma, what is a
gun?"

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Jon Anderson" wrote in message
...

Before I sold it, I took my 16 year old daughter out to a
nearby range
and let her shoot my Combat Commander. I gave her a brief
talk on how to
hold it, and she had zero trouble. I shot video from the
side, the
recoil is apparent, but she had no trouble coming right back
down on
target. It was btw, the first handgun she ever fired.


Jon


  #85   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,530
Default Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design

It was fine, when I wrote it. I sense you're the one who
didn't understand.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Stormin Mormon" wrote
in message
...
Looked up the term on the internet, after someone
(probably
an internet friend) told me so.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...erm=teabagging
The answer is R-rated.


Yeah. Here's one of their examples:

"Me and Jen were teabagging last night when her mom walked
in. Awkward."

Better luck next time, Chris.

--
Ed Huntress





  #86   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,530
Default Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design

Ed asked me to clarify something I wrote earlier. I
clarified, and he keeps not understanding. I can't get too
worried about that.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" wrote:


Yeah. Here's one of their examples:

"Me and Jen were teabagging last night when her mom walked
in. Awkward."

Better luck next time, Chris.



Lets try wikipedia. TMI BTW.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to
protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at
home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller


  #87   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,355
Default Future Space programs Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design

Let the Record show that cavelamb on or about
Sun, 28 Mar 2010 16:37:19 -0500 did write/type or cause to appear in
rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Neither did NASA when we went to the moon.

I wonder how much sooner we would have got there if the engineers had a scientific
calculator instead of those books of logarithms?

Wes


You mean like - now???

I'm almost ready to believe that it was a one-time thing.

Will we EVER go back?


Should we go back?

I wish I had taken notes, because I loaned the book. "Mars
Direct" is the program, which figured that using the technology
available in 1994, it was possible to put men on Mars for about 20
billion dollars. No need to invent space stations, moon bases, or
"battle star galactica" multi-tonne Space Cruisers (you know the ones
- a thousand meter long monsters with a crew of 5,000.). Two Saturn
rocket (or equivalent) launches and the project is underway.
Why not the Moon? Because, in short, you have to take everything
with you, there's nothing there readily exploitable. Fuel for a
return trip can be made on Mars - it's evidentially 1890s technology.
Secondly in terms of delta V, the moon is almost as far as Mars. That
is you have to spend money (fuel) all the way to the surface. On
Mars, you can aero brake into orbiter, and land by parachute. And
the environment on the Moon is hostile. Remember, earth plants are
set up for a twenty four hour cycle, not 29 days.

Personally, I don't care which way we go, but I'm more
enthusiastic for a Mars mission. OTOH, Obama care will mean that
there will be no money for any space program. Or any other future.

pyotr

-
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!
  #88   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 756
Default Future Space programs Anniversary of an amazingly enduringdesign

pyotr filipivich wrote:
And
the environment on the Moon is hostile. Remember, earth plants are
set up for a twenty four hour cycle, not 29 days.


Isn't one side of the moon always in the sun and
the other dark?


  #89   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,624
Default Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design

On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:45:42 -0700, the infamous Gunner Asch
scrawled the following:

On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 08:24:43 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:


Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real
possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario.

Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting
situation...2.5 G

Average range, 7 yrds

I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can
actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be
said of the 9mm


And how long does it usually take to get that 2nd or 3rd round off?


.2 seconds for the average shooter.


Not with my Keltec P-11. It has a three inch/15lb pull trigger.
Gotta learn to bumpfire the SKS for bigger parties. evil grinne


I can fire 6 rounds in .85 seconds on 3 seperate targets spaced 5'
apart (currently), but as is known..Ive been away from competition
shooting for a few years and the stroke didnt help much.

Shrug. Think thats fast enough? Lots and lots of guys are much much
much faster. During my competition days...that time was below .5
seconds


Yabbut, how many of those guys are going to come gunning for you in
your home, etc? I think the average bad guy shoots a bit mroe slowly,
but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

Did you have a better stat page for me? You didn't address that.

--
Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for.
-- Earl Warren
  #90   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,562
Default Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design

"Ed Huntress" wrote:


"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" wrote:


Yeah. Here's one of their examples:

"Me and Jen were teabagging last night when her mom walked in. Awkward."

Better luck next time, Chris.



Lets try wikipedia. TMI BTW.

Wes


And what does it say, Wes?


Sorry, I *thought* I posted the link. Wasn't very nice though. I'll try again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea-bagger

I don't think the heterosexual explainations of the term were on Garafalo's nasty mind
when she said:

In April 2009, Garofalo drew criticism when she denounced the Tea Party protests, saying:
“ Let's be very honest about what this is about. This is not about bashing
Democrats. It's not about taxes. They have no idea what the Boston Tea Party was about.
They don't know their history at all. It's about hating a black man in the White House.
That is racism straight up. This is nothing but a bunch of teabagging rednecks.[17]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janeane_Garofalo

Wes


  #91   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,562
Default Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design

RBnDFW wrote:

JB had a gift! I have a few of his designs and I appreciate them. I have a
P08 that is truely a work of art but hasn't the practicality, durability or
ease of mfg. of the 1911. The bad side is that many of my handguns,
especially the P08 are now too valuable as "collector" pieces that I'm
afraid to use them. The last appraisal I had on the P08 was over $4k, I
wish I had one to shoot!


Shooter grade P08s are readily available for under $1000
Indulge yourself !


I almost bought a P38 until I was clued it it was post war and had an alloy frame.

I'll never have a real Luger though I have have a fun little Stoeger Luger .22 pistol
which isn't the same thing but has the shape.

http://pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/FIR...eger_luger.pdf

Wes
  #92   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,399
Default Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design

On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:27:00 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:59:33 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:17:37 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:25:44 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Ignoramus11443 wrote:

That's a very enduring design, yes. I actually own a Beretta and love
it. How does that .45 handle, is the recoil a little too much?

i

I prefer 9mm personally, mostly for the high capacity. I have shot
friend's .45s many times during the same shooting sessions as my 9mms
and really didn't notice much difference in recoil. Given my tendency
for carpal tunnel issues I would think I'd notice. I do notice a
difference in recoil between my two S&W 9mms, one being metal frame and
one being plastic frame with about 12oz weight difference and otherwise
with the same barrel length and shooting the same ammunition. The
lighter plastic frame 9mm has more pronounced recoil as you would expect
with the lower weight / mass.

High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking
you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a
better tool?

Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real
possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario.

Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting
situation...2.5 G

Average range, 7 yrds

I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can
actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be
said of the 9mm

I think the idea that a .45 is an elephant gun that will stop a subject
with one shot and a 9mm is a pea shooter that couldn't stop a subject
with a whole box of ammo is a bunch of nonsense just like Ford vs. Chevy
vs. Dodge.


the 45 is hardly an elephant gun and the 9mm is hardly a pea shooter.

However...that the .45 is far superior to the 9mm is hardly an issue.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/stopping_power_dialogue.htm
http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/...eb.htm#page_15
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

You may wish to study this chart....

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm

and review these articles....

http://www.mouseguns.com/amball.htm

Carry what you want. If you carry a round that has minimal "stopping
power", with luck, he might let you shoot him until he actually does go
down.
If not..he might simply kill you.

Something to consider when carrying a firearm in the Real World

Gunner
45acp with 230gr Golden Sabres
357 Mag with 125gr JHP
.41 Mag with 210gr Golden Sabres


My 9mm typically has either the 124gr JHP Golden Sabers, or 124gr FMJ
Rangers. I also don't aim for CoM.



If you DONT aim for center of mass, in a combat situation, you are
going to have a very very nasty surprise in store for you.

I hope you survive.

Btw...the 9mm load you are shooting is on a par with the same load in 38
Special.

Just a heads up.


Gunner


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost
  #93   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 544
Default Future Space programs Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design

On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:32:24 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:


Personally, I don't care which way we go, but I'm more
enthusiastic for a Mars mission.


Let me guess, you're against deficit spending as well...

OTOH, Obama care will mean that
there will be no money for any space program.


Why don't you suggest hospitals on the moon? That makes way more sense
than phony conservatives lobbying for a Mars mission.

Wayne









  #94   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,624
Default Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design

On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:27:00 -0500, the infamous "Pete C."
scrawled the following:


Gunner Asch wrote:


--snip of answer to question I asked earlier--


Carry what you want. If you carry a round that has minimal "stopping
power", with luck, he might let you shoot him until he actually does go
down.
If not..he might simply kill you.

Something to consider when carrying a firearm in the Real World

Gunner
45acp with 230gr Golden Sabres
357 Mag with 125gr JHP
.41 Mag with 210gr Golden Sabres


My 9mm typically has either the 124gr JHP Golden Sabers, or 124gr FMJ
Rangers. I also don't aim for CoM.


Mine has Remington UMC 115gr JHP, 'cuz they were cheap for practice. I
should buy some real ammo some time, huh?

I guess that in the extra 0.4 secs it takes to put 2 more 9mm rounds
in a bad guy, he won't be doing too much to stop us...IF we get off
the first shot, or make our first shot count.

So, you make headshots, just in case they're wearing armor?
Good show, Pete.

--
Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for.
-- Earl Warren
  #95   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,536
Default Future Space programs Anniversary of an amazingly enduringdesign

Jim Stewart wrote:
pyotr filipivich wrote:
And
the environment on the Moon is hostile. Remember, earth plants are
set up for a twenty four hour cycle, not 29 days.


Isn't one side of the moon always in the sun and
the other dark?



NO!



--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/



  #96   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,536
Default Future Space programs Anniversary of an amazingly enduringdesign

pyotr filipivich wrote:

Should we go back?

I wish I had taken notes, because I loaned the book. "Mars
Direct" is the program, which figured that using the technology
available in 1994, it was possible to put men on Mars for about 20
billion dollars. No need to invent space stations, moon bases, or
"battle star galactica" multi-tonne Space Cruisers (you know the ones
- a thousand meter long monsters with a crew of 5,000.). Two Saturn
rocket (or equivalent) launches and the project is underway.
Why not the Moon? Because, in short, you have to take everything
with you, there's nothing there readily exploitable. Fuel for a
return trip can be made on Mars - it's evidentially 1890s technology.
Secondly in terms of delta V, the moon is almost as far as Mars. That
is you have to spend money (fuel) all the way to the surface. On
Mars, you can aero brake into orbiter, and land by parachute. And
the environment on the Moon is hostile. Remember, earth plants are
set up for a twenty four hour cycle, not 29 days.

Personally, I don't care which way we go, but I'm more
enthusiastic for a Mars mission. OTOH, Obama care will mean that
there will be no money for any space program. Or any other future.

pyotr

-
pyotr filipivich



It's about the depth of the gravity well, p.

The moon (IMHO) was put there as a useful resource.

Aluminum galore.
LOTS of solar power.
And - damit - water!

So, you DON'T have to take every thing with you.
You mine, refine, and manufacture - on the moon.

Unless, of course, you want to go straight to Mars.
(Which I doubt it really do-able)
We NEED a moon base...

Heck, check the escape velocity numbers.
You can THROW stuff up to orbit from the moon.
(solar powered linear accelerators)

Had we set up a moon base back in the 70s - 80s, I'd
bet we'd be ON Mars by now.

But without that "tree house in the sky"?

We aren't going anywhere.

Ever.


--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/

  #97   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,530
Default Future Space programs

It's been a long time since grade school. But I some how
remember that one side of the moon is always light, the
other always dark.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"cavelamb" wrote in message
...

Isn't one side of the moon always in the sun and
the other dark?



NO!



--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/


  #98   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,536
Default Future Space programs

Stormin Mormon wrote:
It's been a long time since grade school. But I some how
remember that one side of the moon is always light, the
other always dark.


Nope.
If keeps one face toward us (more or less).
We never see the other side of the moon.
But the Sun does - about 1/2 of the time.

From Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbit_of_the_Moon


Libration
Animation of the Moon as it cycles through its phases. The apparent wobbling of
the Moon is known as libration.

The Moon is in synchronous rotation, meaning that it keeps the same face turned
toward the Earth at all times. This synchronous rotation is only true on average
because the Moon's orbit has a definite eccentricity. As a result, the angular
velocity of the Moon varies as it moves around the Earth, and is hence not
always equal to the Moon's rotational velocity. When the Moon is at its perigee,
its rotation is slower than its orbital motion, and this allows us to see up to
eight degrees of longitude of its eastern (right) far side. Conversely, when the
Moon reaches its apogee, its rotation is faster than its orbital motion and this
reveals eight degrees of longitude of its western (left) far side. This is
referred to as longitudinal libration.

Because the lunar orbit is also inclined to the Earth's ecliptic plane by 5.1°,
the rotation axis of the Moon seems to rotate towards and away from us during
one complete orbit. This is referred to as latitudinal libration, which allows
one to see almost 7° of latitude beyond the pole on the far side. Finally,
because the Moon is only about 60 Earth radii away from the Earth's center of
mass, an observer at the equator who observes the Moon throughout the night
moves laterally by one Earth diameter. This gives rise to a diurnal libration,
which allows one to view an additional one degree's worth of lunar longitude.
For the same reason, observers at both geographical poles of the Earth would be
able to see one additional degree's worth of libration in latitude.



--

Richard Lamb
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/

  #99   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 348
Default Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design

cavelamb wrote in
m:

RAM³ wrote:
cavelamb wrote in
:

Don Foreman wrote:
On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 16:32:01 -0500, Wes wrote:

cavelamb wrote:

And, he didn't have AutoCAD or Alibre to do his designs VBG

Karl



Neither did NASA when we went to the moon.

I wonder how much sooner we would have got there if the engineers
had a scientific calculator instead of those books of logarithms?

Wes
That capability was available if needed. There were Frieden
calculators, Kurta calculators, and FORTRAN became commercially
available in 1957.

I beg to argue, Don.

Even through the late 1960s, the term "computer" referred to a
woman who operated an "adding machine". Even at NASA.

And - even I had a handy dandy slide rule. Mine is a Decilon
8 inch. I still have it and can still do (simple!) manipulations
on it.

But FORTRAN, while in the universities before late 60s, was not
widely used until much later. NASA was mainly doing "machine"
(not even Assembly!).

Heck, I know a guy who almost invented time sharing Visicalc -
but his boss though real computer time was to valuable for any
such silliness!


At least that's the way I remember it...



Your memory is faulty. grin

In '64 the tiny college in Kingsville, TX, was using an IBM 1620
(with an "astounding" 40K BITS of magnetic core storage) to not only
keep the student records and the financial records of the institution
but was providing the Celenese plant at Bishop, TX, with accounting
services.

This was in addition to teaching students to program the machine in
machine code, assembly language, Fortran, Fortran With Format,
Fortran II, and FORGO (a compile-and-go variant of Fortran).

The "Business Schools" of the '66-'70 period often offered Fortran IV
and COBOL programming "degrees" to their "students". Cobol, BTW, had
already become the standard for business applications.

I signed on with the City of Houston as a beginning programmer in
early '68 and envied the salaries of those at NASA in Clear Lake.
(After all, 50% differential is significant.) While there was some
assembler work being done (at both sites) the bulk of the activity
was in COBOL with some FORTRAN activity remaining. (Most of the
really cute code was already in production by then.)


I was referring to NASA, but ok, won't make a federal case out of it.


But the NASA stuff - oh boy - orbital rendezvous, burn times and
attitudes, mission stuff - once that was pretty much debugged, it
became holy code.

You know that once someone got a program running it would be used
forever. (witness the Y2K scare in commercial circles)


chuckling

Some code that I wrote in the '60s is still in production. grin


So while the new kids came in with their fancy new languages, the old
geezers who wrote the original stuff kept right on banging bits
together.


As an old "bit banger", myself, I learned early on to appreciate the use
of assemblers/compilers as, quite simply, a faster way to handle a lot of
the "housekeeping".

One nice feature of several companies' compilers was the ability to start
out with an "envelope" using one language, shift into another one, pop
back into the "envelope" and, then, shift into yet another one before
going back to the original *all while doing in-line code*. These
"hybrids" enabled functionality that, otherwise, would have proven
exceptionally difficult if not impossible. [Yah, I wound up doing a lot
of "unique" code over the years. grin]


And if we go back to the early missions like Mercury...
Rock for zero, stick for one...




  #100   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,746
Default Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:27:00 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:59:33 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:17:37 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:25:44 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Ignoramus11443 wrote:

That's a very enduring design, yes. I actually own a Beretta and love
it. How does that .45 handle, is the recoil a little too much?

i

I prefer 9mm personally, mostly for the high capacity. I have shot
friend's .45s many times during the same shooting sessions as my 9mms
and really didn't notice much difference in recoil. Given my tendency
for carpal tunnel issues I would think I'd notice. I do notice a
difference in recoil between my two S&W 9mms, one being metal frame and
one being plastic frame with about 12oz weight difference and otherwise
with the same barrel length and shooting the same ammunition. The
lighter plastic frame 9mm has more pronounced recoil as you would expect
with the lower weight / mass.

High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking
you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a
better tool?

Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real
possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario.

Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting
situation...2.5 G

Average range, 7 yrds

I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can
actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be
said of the 9mm

I think the idea that a .45 is an elephant gun that will stop a subject
with one shot and a 9mm is a pea shooter that couldn't stop a subject
with a whole box of ammo is a bunch of nonsense just like Ford vs. Chevy
vs. Dodge.

the 45 is hardly an elephant gun and the 9mm is hardly a pea shooter.

However...that the .45 is far superior to the 9mm is hardly an issue.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/stopping_power_dialogue.htm
http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/...eb.htm#page_15
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

You may wish to study this chart....

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm

and review these articles....

http://www.mouseguns.com/amball.htm

Carry what you want. If you carry a round that has minimal "stopping
power", with luck, he might let you shoot him until he actually does go
down.
If not..he might simply kill you.

Something to consider when carrying a firearm in the Real World

Gunner
45acp with 230gr Golden Sabres
357 Mag with 125gr JHP
.41 Mag with 210gr Golden Sabres


My 9mm typically has either the 124gr JHP Golden Sabers, or 124gr FMJ
Rangers. I also don't aim for CoM.


If you DONT aim for center of mass, in a combat situation, you are
going to have a very very nasty surprise in store for you.

I hope you survive.


I presume that the perp may have body armor. 9mm or .45 aint' going to
make any difference if a CoM shot hits BA. I aim a little higher to
ensure the desired effect BA or no.


Btw...the 9mm load you are shooting is on a par with the same load in 38
Special.

Just a heads up.


The Rangers are NATO.


  #101   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,746
Default Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design


Larry Jaques wrote:

On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:27:00 -0500, the infamous "Pete C."
scrawled the following:


Gunner Asch wrote:


--snip of answer to question I asked earlier--

Carry what you want. If you carry a round that has minimal "stopping
power", with luck, he might let you shoot him until he actually does go
down.
If not..he might simply kill you.

Something to consider when carrying a firearm in the Real World

Gunner
45acp with 230gr Golden Sabres
357 Mag with 125gr JHP
.41 Mag with 210gr Golden Sabres


My 9mm typically has either the 124gr JHP Golden Sabers, or 124gr FMJ
Rangers. I also don't aim for CoM.


Mine has Remington UMC 115gr JHP, 'cuz they were cheap for practice. I
should buy some real ammo some time, huh?

I guess that in the extra 0.4 secs it takes to put 2 more 9mm rounds
in a bad guy, he won't be doing too much to stop us...IF we get off
the first shot, or make our first shot count.


The perp always has the element of surprise. Getting that first shot off
is the key part, regardless of what caliber you choose.


So, you make headshots, just in case they're wearing armor?
Good show, Pete.


Have to presume they have BA. 9mm or .45 won't do diddly if it hits BA.
  #102   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,529
Default Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design


"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
It was fine, when I wrote it. I sense you're the one who
didn't understand.


Chris, you may be living a sheltered life, but in the NYC metro area, the
term has been around for decades. It never had a particularly homosexual
connotation that I recall.

As your own "dictionary" said by example, and as the Wikipedia reference
that West referred to says, it's a term that applies to heterosexuals and
homosexuals alike.

What's going on here is that the teabaggers, who are mostly traditional
conservatives and reactionaries, tend to be homophobes as well. It's part of
the package. So they took offense, and off it went.

But the offense is a reflection on their own homophobia and
misunderstanding. They created a pejorative for themselves, and handed it to
the people who like to make fun of them.

They aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer.

--
Ed Huntress



--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Stormin Mormon" wrote
in message
...
Looked up the term on the internet, after someone
(probably
an internet friend) told me so.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...erm=teabagging
The answer is R-rated.


Yeah. Here's one of their examples:

"Me and Jen were teabagging last night when her mom walked
in. Awkward."

Better luck next time, Chris.

--
Ed Huntress





  #103   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,529
Default Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design


"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" wrote:


"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" wrote:


Yeah. Here's one of their examples:

"Me and Jen were teabagging last night when her mom walked in. Awkward."

Better luck next time, Chris.


Lets try wikipedia. TMI BTW.

Wes


And what does it say, Wes?


Sorry, I *thought* I posted the link. Wasn't very nice though. I'll try
again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea-bagger

I don't think the heterosexual explainations of the term were on
Garafalo's nasty mind
when she said:

In April 2009, Garofalo drew criticism when she denounced the Tea Party
protests, saying:
" Let's be very honest about what this is about. This is not about bashing
Democrats. It's not about taxes. They have no idea what the Boston Tea
Party was about.
They don't know their history at all. It's about hating a black man in the
White House.
That is racism straight up. This is nothing but a bunch of teabagging
rednecks.[17]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janeane_Garofalo


It's unlikely that more than a handful of tea people even know who Janeane
Garofalo is, Wes. She doesn't play in the kinds of venues you're expect them
to attend. And there's no way she would use a term as a homophobic slur, and
expect it to be taken as a put-down. That just isn't her.

As I said to Chris, this is a pejorative the teabaggers created for
themselves. They had no trouble with the term until they found out that it
has a sexual application.

For example, this woman, who is one of my favorite teabaggers g:

http://blogtown.portlandmercury.com/...or-jesus-today

--
Ed Huntress



  #104   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 463
Default Future Space programs

"Stormin Mormon" writes:

It's been a long time since grade school. But I some how
remember that one side of the moon is always light, the
other always dark.


Please tell me you're joking. Just in case you're not, the moon is
tidally locked, which means one side always faces the earth. We refer
to the side away from the earth as the "dark side" of the moon (cue Pink
Floyd), but it isn't actually always dark.
--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)
  #105   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,399
Default Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design

On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:55:09 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:45:42 -0700, the infamous Gunner Asch
scrawled the following:

On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 08:24:43 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:


Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real
possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario.

Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting
situation...2.5 G

Average range, 7 yrds

I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can
actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be
said of the 9mm

And how long does it usually take to get that 2nd or 3rd round off?


.2 seconds for the average shooter.


Not with my Keltec P-11. It has a three inch/15lb pull trigger.
Gotta learn to bumpfire the SKS for bigger parties. evil grinne


I can fire 6 rounds in .85 seconds on 3 seperate targets spaced 5'
apart (currently), but as is known..Ive been away from competition
shooting for a few years and the stroke didnt help much.

Shrug. Think thats fast enough? Lots and lots of guys are much much
much faster. During my competition days...that time was below .5
seconds


Yabbut, how many of those guys are going to come gunning for you in
your home, etc? I think the average bad guy shoots a bit mroe slowly,
but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.


The average bad guy only kills 20% of the people he actually shoots.

The average good guy does much better.

Did you have a better stat page for me? You didn't address that.

\
Which stats are you looking for?

Gunner


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost


  #106   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,399
Default Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design

On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 21:03:34 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:27:00 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:59:33 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:17:37 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:25:44 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Ignoramus11443 wrote:

That's a very enduring design, yes. I actually own a Beretta and love
it. How does that .45 handle, is the recoil a little too much?

i

I prefer 9mm personally, mostly for the high capacity. I have shot
friend's .45s many times during the same shooting sessions as my 9mms
and really didn't notice much difference in recoil. Given my tendency
for carpal tunnel issues I would think I'd notice. I do notice a
difference in recoil between my two S&W 9mms, one being metal frame and
one being plastic frame with about 12oz weight difference and otherwise
with the same barrel length and shooting the same ammunition. The
lighter plastic frame 9mm has more pronounced recoil as you would expect
with the lower weight / mass.

High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking
you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a
better tool?

Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real
possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario.

Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting
situation...2.5 G

Average range, 7 yrds

I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can
actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be
said of the 9mm

I think the idea that a .45 is an elephant gun that will stop a subject
with one shot and a 9mm is a pea shooter that couldn't stop a subject
with a whole box of ammo is a bunch of nonsense just like Ford vs. Chevy
vs. Dodge.

the 45 is hardly an elephant gun and the 9mm is hardly a pea shooter.

However...that the .45 is far superior to the 9mm is hardly an issue.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/stopping_power_dialogue.htm
http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/...eb.htm#page_15
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

You may wish to study this chart....

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm

and review these articles....

http://www.mouseguns.com/amball.htm

Carry what you want. If you carry a round that has minimal "stopping
power", with luck, he might let you shoot him until he actually does go
down.
If not..he might simply kill you.

Something to consider when carrying a firearm in the Real World

Gunner
45acp with 230gr Golden Sabres
357 Mag with 125gr JHP
.41 Mag with 210gr Golden Sabres

My 9mm typically has either the 124gr JHP Golden Sabers, or 124gr FMJ
Rangers. I also don't aim for CoM.


If you DONT aim for center of mass, in a combat situation, you are
going to have a very very nasty surprise in store for you.

I hope you survive.


I presume that the perp may have body armor. 9mm or .45 aint' going to
make any difference if a CoM shot hits BA. I aim a little higher to
ensure the desired effect BA or no.


Then you run with a much different crowd than the average person does.
In that case, a decent battle rifle would be appropriate.

Few street shootings involve bad guys wearing armor.

Skull shots are good, if you can reliably do them while they are
shooting at you and your heart is going 250mph.

Been thered, done that. Shrug.


Btw...the 9mm load you are shooting is on a par with the same load in 38
Special.

Just a heads up.


The Rangers are NATO.



Which Rangers?

Gunner, 75th, 71-73


"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost
  #107   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,138
Default Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design

On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 01:09:24 -0500, cavelamb
wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:
On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 16:32:01 -0500, Wes wrote:

cavelamb wrote:

And, he didn't have AutoCAD or Alibre to do his designs VBG

Karl




Neither did NASA when we went to the moon.


I wonder how much sooner we would have got there if the engineers had a scientific
calculator instead of those books of logarithms?

Wes

That capability was available if needed. There were Frieden
calculators, Kurta calculators, and FORTRAN became commercially
available in 1957.



I beg to argue, Don.

Even through the late 1960s, the term "computer" referred to a
woman who operated an "adding machine". Even at NASA.

And - even I had a handy dandy slide rule. Mine is a Decilon
8 inch. I still have it and can still do (simple!) manipulations
on it.

But FORTRAN, while in the universities before late 60s, was not
widely used until much later. NASA was mainly doing "machine"
(not even Assembly!).

Heck, I know a guy who almost invented time sharing Visicalc -
but his boss though real computer time was to valuable for any
such silliness!


At least that's the way I remember it...


I'll defer to you about what NASA was doing. FORTRAN was definitely
being used in universities in the early 60's, and at Honeywell
Aerospace in the mid-60's. My intro, about 1967, was total immersion.
My boss gave me an assignment that required writing a program to
reduce some gyro test data. I told him I didn't know diddly squat
about computers, I was not the guy for this assignment. I was quite
happy with my slipstick. (Post Versalog, still have it) He said,
"it's your assignment, we need it by end of day Friday." That was on
Wednesday. I'll bet this guy was one hell of a swimming instructor.
I found a book: McCracken, Daniel D. (1966), A Guide to Fortran IV
Programming (1 ed.). Someone introduced me to a timeshare terminal
(ASR-33 teletype) and showed me how to log on. I hurt my head for two
days with not much sleep, got 'er done. The gyro data got reduced
correctly and the project got caught up shortly thereafter because
they could analyze a test run in minutes instead of hours.

I was intimidated by computers before that, but not afterwards. I'd
been using FORTRAN for a while before I got my first engineering
calculator, a used HP-35 for $150 when a decent house in a good
neighborhood could be bought for $30K.




  #108   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,705
Default Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:27:00 -0500, the infamous "Pete C."
scrawled the following:

Gunner Asch wrote:


--snip of answer to question I asked earlier--


Carry what you want. If you carry a round that has minimal "stopping
power", with luck, he might let you shoot him until he actually does go
down.
If not..he might simply kill you.

Something to consider when carrying a firearm in the Real World

Gunner
45acp with 230gr Golden Sabres
357 Mag with 125gr JHP
.41 Mag with 210gr Golden Sabres

My 9mm typically has either the 124gr JHP Golden Sabers, or 124gr FMJ
Rangers. I also don't aim for CoM.


Mine has Remington UMC 115gr JHP, 'cuz they were cheap for practice. I
should buy some real ammo some time, huh?

I guess that in the extra 0.4 secs it takes to put 2 more 9mm rounds
in a bad guy, he won't be doing too much to stop us...IF we get off
the first shot, or make our first shot count.

So, you make headshots, just in case they're wearing armor?
Good show, Pete.

--
Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for.
-- Earl Warren


One thing with a head shot, usually ONE is enough to stop the perp...

Now if your carry piece is a .454 Casull or a .500 S&W or other hand
cannon, Well lets just say a head shot is REALLY messy.... COM may be a
bit better for the ME to clean up.

--
Steve W.
  #109   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,924
Default Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design


"Steve W." wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:27:00 -0500, the infamous "Pete C."
scrawled the following:

Gunner Asch wrote:


--snip of answer to question I asked earlier--


Carry what you want. If you carry a round that has minimal "stopping
power", with luck, he might let you shoot him until he actually does go
down.
If not..he might simply kill you.

Something to consider when carrying a firearm in the Real World

Gunner
45acp with 230gr Golden Sabres
357 Mag with 125gr JHP
.41 Mag with 210gr Golden Sabres
My 9mm typically has either the 124gr JHP Golden Sabers, or 124gr FMJ
Rangers. I also don't aim for CoM.


Mine has Remington UMC 115gr JHP, 'cuz they were cheap for practice. I
should buy some real ammo some time, huh?

I guess that in the extra 0.4 secs it takes to put 2 more 9mm rounds
in a bad guy, he won't be doing too much to stop us...IF we get off
the first shot, or make our first shot count.

So, you make headshots, just in case they're wearing armor?
Good show, Pete.

--
Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for.
-- Earl Warren


One thing with a head shot, usually ONE is enough to stop the perp...

Now if your carry piece is a .454 Casull or a .500 S&W or other hand
cannon, Well lets just say a head shot is REALLY messy.... COM may be a
bit better for the ME to clean up.



Then use a M72. ;-)



--
Lead free solder is Belgium's version of 'Hold my beer and watch this!'
  #110   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:17:37 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:25:44 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Ignoramus11443 wrote:

That's a very enduring design, yes. I actually own a Beretta and love
it. How does that .45 handle, is the recoil a little too much?

i

I prefer 9mm personally, mostly for the high capacity. I have shot
friend's .45s many times during the same shooting sessions as my 9mms
and really didn't notice much difference in recoil. Given my tendency
for carpal tunnel issues I would think I'd notice. I do notice a
difference in recoil between my two S&W 9mms, one being metal frame and
one being plastic frame with about 12oz weight difference and otherwise
with the same barrel length and shooting the same ammunition. The
lighter plastic frame 9mm has more pronounced recoil as you would
expect
with the lower weight / mass.

High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking
you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a
better tool?


Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real
possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario.


Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting
situation...2.5 G

Average range, 7 yrds

I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can
actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be
said of the 9mm

Gunner


That can't be said of the .40 or .45 either. The probability of a one-shot
stop is higher with the more powerful rounds, but it's far from a certainty.
Shot placement is far more important
than caliber or power. A .22 rimfire hollowpoint is a one-shot drop if the
shot is perfectly placed. Ask any assassin. My dad was killed with one shot
from a .22 rimfire.

A shotgun with #4 buck gets 'er done because of the high probability of one
of the coupla dozen little 24-caliber (6 mm) balls hitting something that
will result in instant incapacitation. 6mm is smaler than 9mm. Bigger
ammo does more damage per wound channel but instant drop requires that
damage be done to very specific locations. Handgun ammo, unlike much higher
velocity smaller caliber 5.62 mm (.223 caliber) rifle ammo, does not
deliver sufficent hydrostatic shock to matter, so a stop/drop hit must
impact spine, brain, heart, or other organ that will result in instant
shock, or pelvis that can result in incapacitating pain but that's iffy with
drug-crazed assailants who feel no pain.

Hitting such key small locations, short of head shots, is well beyond the
marksmanship capability of most shooters, perhaps all shooters in a stress
sit. I can repeatedly hit the face of an assailant at 7 yards but there's
no way I'd bet I could hit his spine when we're both moving, in dark or low
light, stoked with adrenaline.

Ability to accurately place several shots very rapidly is much more likely
to drop an assailant than having a bigger gun. I did say accurately, but
I'm not talking bullseye here but several rounds to COM and a couple to head
at short range. Self defense is a dynamic, adrenaline-charged
scared-****less short-range activity, not a military activity done by young
men in a high state of training.
I assert that the best tactic is to use a weapon/caliber that the
individual, young or old, male or female, big or small, strong or weak,
liberal or conservative, can best deliver most fire with workable accuracy
in a very few seconds of time. That's why nobody disputes the
effectiveness of a shotgun or a full auto rifle.

Most occasional shooters can deliver accurate rapid fire much better with a
9mm than they can with a .40 or .45, and the nines hold more ammo.

A .380 is a one-shot drop if shot placement is right. A .380 with 7 rounds
fired rapidly enough to hit at point blank range has far higher probability
of stop than one hit from a .45ACP. The objective is to stop, no bonus for
doing it in one shot. Get it done with as many shots as it takes,
accurately delivered to drop the assailant.

That's why I assert that the .380 one might carry is far more defense than a
..45 one leaves at home. It's a moot point for those who routinely carry a
..45 and can shoot it well. I do shoot a .45 respectably but I don't care to
pack one though I do have a holster for my Colt Officer's and my instructor
in the CQB (close quarters battle) training I did with that pistol thought
I shot it respectably.
I don't even pack a .380 most days.

We've had this joust before, Gunner. Not saying you're wrong , just sayin'
that the solution you find right for you may not be right for others.








  #111   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,562
Default Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design

"Ed Huntress" wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janeane_Garofalo


It's unlikely that more than a handful of tea people even know who Janeane
Garofalo is, Wes. She doesn't play in the kinds of venues you're expect them
to attend. And there's no way she would use a term as a homophobic slur, and
expect it to be taken as a put-down. That just isn't her.


You know what a double entendre is.

I've seen more of her than I'd really like. One of the risks of having your dvr record
the daily show and colbert and stay on channel.

The TV is on at night to help mask the tinnitus.

Wes



  #112   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,399
Default Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design

On Tue, 30 Mar 2010 01:40:41 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:27:00 -0500, the infamous "Pete C."
scrawled the following:

Gunner Asch wrote:


--snip of answer to question I asked earlier--


Carry what you want. If you carry a round that has minimal "stopping
power", with luck, he might let you shoot him until he actually does go
down.
If not..he might simply kill you.

Something to consider when carrying a firearm in the Real World

Gunner
45acp with 230gr Golden Sabres
357 Mag with 125gr JHP
.41 Mag with 210gr Golden Sabres
My 9mm typically has either the 124gr JHP Golden Sabers, or 124gr FMJ
Rangers. I also don't aim for CoM.


Mine has Remington UMC 115gr JHP, 'cuz they were cheap for practice. I
should buy some real ammo some time, huh?

I guess that in the extra 0.4 secs it takes to put 2 more 9mm rounds
in a bad guy, he won't be doing too much to stop us...IF we get off
the first shot, or make our first shot count.

So, you make headshots, just in case they're wearing armor?
Good show, Pete.

--
Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for.
-- Earl Warren


One thing with a head shot, usually ONE is enough to stop the perp...


Pretty much. Though I did see a guy get hit in the head with a .45
hardball. It hit just above the hairline and bounced straight up.
Knocked his dick in the dirt however. He lived with no complications.

Crom was smiling on him.


Now if your carry piece is a .454 Casull or a .500 S&W or other hand
cannon, Well lets just say a head shot is REALLY messy.... COM may be a
bit better for the ME to clean up.




"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost
  #113   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,399
Default Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design

On Tue, 30 Mar 2010 02:18:27 -0500, "Don Foreman"
wrote:


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:17:37 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:25:44 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Ignoramus11443 wrote:

That's a very enduring design, yes. I actually own a Beretta and love
it. How does that .45 handle, is the recoil a little too much?

i

I prefer 9mm personally, mostly for the high capacity. I have shot
friend's .45s many times during the same shooting sessions as my 9mms
and really didn't notice much difference in recoil. Given my tendency
for carpal tunnel issues I would think I'd notice. I do notice a
difference in recoil between my two S&W 9mms, one being metal frame and
one being plastic frame with about 12oz weight difference and otherwise
with the same barrel length and shooting the same ammunition. The
lighter plastic frame 9mm has more pronounced recoil as you would
expect
with the lower weight / mass.

High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking
you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a
better tool?

Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real
possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario.


Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting
situation...2.5 G

Average range, 7 yrds

I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can
actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be
said of the 9mm

Gunner


That can't be said of the .40 or .45 either.


It can, 98% of the time...but only 61% of the time with a 9mikemike.

The probability of a one-shot
stop is higher with the more powerful rounds, but it's far from a certainty.
Shot placement is far more important
than caliber or power. A .22 rimfire hollowpoint is a one-shot drop if the
shot is perfectly placed. Ask any assassin. My dad was killed with one shot
from a .22 rimfire.

A shotgun with #4 buck gets 'er done because of the high probability of one
of the coupla dozen little 24-caliber (6 mm) balls hitting something that
will result in instant incapacitation. 6mm is smaler than 9mm. Bigger
ammo does more damage per wound channel but instant drop requires that
damage be done to very specific locations. Handgun ammo, unlike much higher
velocity smaller caliber 5.62 mm (.223 caliber) rifle ammo, does not
deliver sufficent hydrostatic shock to matter, so a stop/drop hit must
impact spine, brain, heart, or other organ that will result in instant
shock, or pelvis that can result in incapacitating pain but that's iffy with
drug-crazed assailants who feel no pain.


Indeed. Though packing a shotgun in a shoulder rig is problematic.

Hitting such key small locations, short of head shots, is well beyond the
marksmanship capability of most shooters, perhaps all shooters in a stress
sit. I can repeatedly hit the face of an assailant at 7 yards but there's
no way I'd bet I could hit his spine when we're both moving, in dark or low
light, stoked with adrenaline.


As I told Pete C. Though center of mass is relatively easy based on my
experience with amatures who had to shoot in self defense.

Ability to accurately place several shots very rapidly is much more likely
to drop an assailant than having a bigger gun. I did say accurately, but
I'm not talking bullseye here but several rounds to COM and a couple to head
at short range. Self defense is a dynamic, adrenaline-charged
scared-****less short-range activity, not a military activity done by young
men in a high state of training.
I assert that the best tactic is to use a weapon/caliber that the
individual, young or old, male or female, big or small, strong or weak,
liberal or conservative, can best deliver most fire with workable accuracy
in a very few seconds of time. That's why nobody disputes the
effectiveness of a shotgun or a full auto rifle.

Most occasional shooters can deliver accurate rapid fire much better with a
9mm than they can with a .40 or .45, and the nines hold more ammo.

Occasional shooters? Oh..you mean people who shouldnt be carrying a
deadly weapon?

A .380 is a one-shot drop if shot placement is right. A .380 with 7 rounds
fired rapidly enough to hit at point blank range has far higher probability
of stop than one hit from a .45ACP. The objective is to stop, no bonus for
doing it in one shot. Get it done with as many shots as it takes,
accurately delivered to drop the assailant.


The problem with that is..he may not let you shoot him a bunch of times
before he crushes your skull with a rock.

That's why I assert that the .380 one might carry is far more defense than a
.45 one leaves at home. It's a moot point for those who routinely carry a
.45 and can shoot it well. I do shoot a .45 respectably but I don't care to
pack one though I do have a holster for my Colt Officer's and my instructor
in the CQB (close quarters battle) training I did with that pistol thought
I shot it respectably.
I don't even pack a .380 most days.

We've had this joust before, Gunner. Not saying you're wrong , just sayin'
that the solution you find right for you may not be right for others.


True enough.

You stick to the mouse guns and Ill stick to the man stoppers I dont
have to shoot a guy 9 times with.

Deal?

Gunner








"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost
  #114   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,746
Default Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 21:03:34 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:27:00 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:59:33 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:17:37 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:25:44 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Ignoramus11443 wrote:

That's a very enduring design, yes. I actually own a Beretta and love
it. How does that .45 handle, is the recoil a little too much?

i

I prefer 9mm personally, mostly for the high capacity. I have shot
friend's .45s many times during the same shooting sessions as my 9mms
and really didn't notice much difference in recoil. Given my tendency
for carpal tunnel issues I would think I'd notice. I do notice a
difference in recoil between my two S&W 9mms, one being metal frame and
one being plastic frame with about 12oz weight difference and otherwise
with the same barrel length and shooting the same ammunition. The
lighter plastic frame 9mm has more pronounced recoil as you would expect
with the lower weight / mass.

High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking
you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a
better tool?

Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real
possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario.

Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting
situation...2.5 G

Average range, 7 yrds

I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can
actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be
said of the 9mm

I think the idea that a .45 is an elephant gun that will stop a subject
with one shot and a 9mm is a pea shooter that couldn't stop a subject
with a whole box of ammo is a bunch of nonsense just like Ford vs. Chevy
vs. Dodge.

the 45 is hardly an elephant gun and the 9mm is hardly a pea shooter.

However...that the .45 is far superior to the 9mm is hardly an issue.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/stopping_power_dialogue.htm
http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/...eb.htm#page_15
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

You may wish to study this chart....

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm

and review these articles....

http://www.mouseguns.com/amball.htm

Carry what you want. If you carry a round that has minimal "stopping
power", with luck, he might let you shoot him until he actually does go
down.
If not..he might simply kill you.

Something to consider when carrying a firearm in the Real World

Gunner
45acp with 230gr Golden Sabres
357 Mag with 125gr JHP
.41 Mag with 210gr Golden Sabres

My 9mm typically has either the 124gr JHP Golden Sabers, or 124gr FMJ
Rangers. I also don't aim for CoM.

If you DONT aim for center of mass, in a combat situation, you are
going to have a very very nasty surprise in store for you.

I hope you survive.


I presume that the perp may have body armor. 9mm or .45 aint' going to
make any difference if a CoM shot hits BA. I aim a little higher to
ensure the desired effect BA or no.


Then you run with a much different crowd than the average person does.
In that case, a decent battle rifle would be appropriate.

Few street shootings involve bad guys wearing armor.

Skull shots are good, if you can reliably do them while they are
shooting at you and your heart is going 250mph.

Been thered, done that. Shrug.


I just focus on what will have the highest probability of the desired
effect.



Btw...the 9mm load you are shooting is on a par with the same load in 38
Special.

Just a heads up.


The Rangers are NATO.


Which Rangers?


Winchester.
  #115   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,624
Default Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design

On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 21:03:34 -0500, the infamous "Pete C."
scrawled the following:

The Rangers are NATO.


But are they UN approved? dg&r

--
Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for.
-- Earl Warren


  #116   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,624
Default Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design

On Tue, 30 Mar 2010 01:40:41 -0400, the infamous "Steve W."
scrawled the following:

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:27:00 -0500, the infamous "Pete C."
scrawled the following:

Gunner Asch wrote:


--snip of answer to question I asked earlier--


Carry what you want. If you carry a round that has minimal "stopping
power", with luck, he might let you shoot him until he actually does go
down.
If not..he might simply kill you.

Something to consider when carrying a firearm in the Real World

Gunner
45acp with 230gr Golden Sabres
357 Mag with 125gr JHP
.41 Mag with 210gr Golden Sabres
My 9mm typically has either the 124gr JHP Golden Sabers, or 124gr FMJ
Rangers. I also don't aim for CoM.


Mine has Remington UMC 115gr JHP, 'cuz they were cheap for practice. I
should buy some real ammo some time, huh?

I guess that in the extra 0.4 secs it takes to put 2 more 9mm rounds
in a bad guy, he won't be doing too much to stop us...IF we get off
the first shot, or make our first shot count.

So, you make headshots, just in case they're wearing armor?
Good show, Pete.

--
Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for.
-- Earl Warren


One thing with a head shot, usually ONE is enough to stop the perp...


One stop is good enough for me.


Now if your carry piece is a .454 Casull or a .500 S&W or other hand
cannon, Well lets just say a head shot is REALLY messy.... COM may be a
bit better for the ME to clean up.


Kinda "pink misty", like a Barrett .50 BMG round, huh?

--
Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for.
-- Earl Warren
  #117   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,624
Default Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design

On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 20:59:48 -0700, the infamous Gunner Asch
scrawled the following:

On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:55:09 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:45:42 -0700, the infamous Gunner Asch
scrawled the following:

On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 08:24:43 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:


Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real
possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario.

Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting
situation...2.5 G

Average range, 7 yrds

I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can
actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be
said of the 9mm

And how long does it usually take to get that 2nd or 3rd round off?

.2 seconds for the average shooter.


Not with my Keltec P-11. It has a three inch/15lb pull trigger.
Gotta learn to bumpfire the SKS for bigger parties. evil grinne


I can fire 6 rounds in .85 seconds on 3 seperate targets spaced 5'
apart (currently), but as is known..Ive been away from competition
shooting for a few years and the stroke didnt help much.

Shrug. Think thats fast enough? Lots and lots of guys are much much
much faster. During my competition days...that time was below .5
seconds


Yabbut, how many of those guys are going to come gunning for you in
your home, etc? I think the average bad guy shoots a bit mroe slowly,
but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.


The average bad guy only kills 20% of the people he actually shoots.


Good!


The average good guy does much better.


Much better news!


Did you have a better stat page for me? You didn't address that.

\
Which stats are you looking for?


You answered it handily with your post full of links to Pete
yesterday. I was looking for stopping power by caliber charts.
Interestingly enough, some of the one-stop stats for the Golden Sabers
are low. 9mm CorBon +P = 91%, 9mm Rem Golden Saber +P = 83%.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm

--
Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for.
-- Earl Warren
  #118   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,746
Default Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design


Larry Jaques wrote:

On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 21:03:34 -0500, the infamous "Pete C."
scrawled the following:

The Rangers are NATO.


But are they UN approved? dg&r


Probably. You can check on the Winchester site.
  #119   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,624
Default Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design

On Tue, 30 Mar 2010 02:18:27 -0500, the infamous "Don Foreman"
scrawled the following:


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:17:37 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Gunner Asch wrote:

On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:25:44 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Ignoramus11443 wrote:

That's a very enduring design, yes. I actually own a Beretta and love
it. How does that .45 handle, is the recoil a little too much?

i

I prefer 9mm personally, mostly for the high capacity. I have shot
friend's .45s many times during the same shooting sessions as my 9mms
and really didn't notice much difference in recoil. Given my tendency
for carpal tunnel issues I would think I'd notice. I do notice a
difference in recoil between my two S&W 9mms, one being metal frame and
one being plastic frame with about 12oz weight difference and otherwise
with the same barrel length and shooting the same ammunition. The
lighter plastic frame 9mm has more pronounced recoil as you would
expect
with the lower weight / mass.

High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking
you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a
better tool?

Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real
possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario.


Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting
situation...2.5 G

Average range, 7 yrds

I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can
actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be
said of the 9mm

Gunner


That can't be said of the .40 or .45 either. The probability of a one-shot
stop is higher with the more powerful rounds, but it's far from a certainty.
Shot placement is far more important
than caliber or power. A .22 rimfire hollowpoint is a one-shot drop if the
shot is perfectly placed. Ask any assassin. My dad was killed with one shot
from a .22 rimfire.


I believe it was the FBI report Gunner linked to yesterday which said
that more people are killed by .22 rimfires than any other bullet.
(Sorry to hear that about your dad, Don.)


A shotgun with #4 buck gets 'er done because of the high probability of one
of the coupla dozen little 24-caliber (6 mm) balls hitting something that
will result in instant incapacitation. 6mm is smaler than 9mm. Bigger
ammo does more damage per wound channel but instant drop requires that
damage be done to very specific locations. Handgun ammo, unlike much higher
velocity smaller caliber 5.62 mm (.223 caliber) rifle ammo, does not
deliver sufficent hydrostatic shock to matter, so a stop/drop hit must
impact spine, brain, heart, or other organ that will result in instant
shock, or pelvis that can result in incapacitating pain but that's iffy with
drug-crazed assailants who feel no pain.


Size (caliber) apparently doesn't matter in many cases.
http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/...eb.htm#page_15
--snip--
In the authors’ ongoing study of violence against law
enforcement officers, they have examined several cases where officers
used large-caliber hand guns with limited effect displayed by the
offenders. In one case, the subject attacked the officer with a knife.
The officer shot the individual four times in the chest; then, his
weapon malfunctioned. The offender continued to walk toward the
officer. After the officer cleared his weapon, he fired again and
struck the subject in the chest. Only then did the offender drop the
knife. This individual was hit five times with 230-grain, .45-caliber
hollow-point ammunition and never fell to the ground. The offender
later stated, “The wounds felt like bee stings.”

In another case, officers fired six .40-caliber, hollow-point rounds
at a subject who pointed a gun at them. Each of the six rounds hit the
individual with no visible effect. The seventh round severed his
spinal cord, and the offender fell to the ground, dropping his weapon.
This entire firefight was captured by several officers’ in-car video
cameras.

In a final case, the subject shot the victim officer in the chest
with a handgun and fled. The officer, wearing a bullet-resistant vest,
returned gunfire. The officer’s partner observed the incident and also
fired at the offender. Subsequent investigation determined that the
individual was hit 13 times and, yet, ran several blocks to a gang
member’s house. He later said, “I was so scared by all those shots; it
sounded like the Fourth of July.” Again, according to the subject, his
wounds “only started to hurt when I woke up in the hospital.” The
officers had used 9-millimeter, department-issued ammunition. The
surviving officers re ported that they felt vulnerable.
--snip--


Hitting such key small locations, short of head shots, is well beyond the
marksmanship capability of most shooters, perhaps all shooters in a stress
sit. I can repeatedly hit the face of an assailant at 7 yards but there's
no way I'd bet I could hit his spine when we're both moving, in dark or low
light, stoked with adrenaline.


Face is good. I would think that even if you didn't kill them, perps
with their faces blown off would tend to be a bit more docile, if not
unconscious from the blow to the skull.


Ability to accurately place several shots very rapidly is much more likely
to drop an assailant than having a bigger gun. I did say accurately, but
I'm not talking bullseye here but several rounds to COM and a couple to head
at short range. Self defense is a dynamic, adrenaline-charged
scared-****less short-range activity, not a military activity done by young
men in a high state of training.
I assert that the best tactic is to use a weapon/caliber that the
individual, young or old, male or female, big or small, strong or weak,
liberal or conservative, can best deliver most fire with workable accuracy


Liberal with a gun? Shirley, ewe jest! That's as rare as a
Republican with an Obama bumper sticker on their car. (Hi, Ed!)


in a very few seconds of time. That's why nobody disputes the
effectiveness of a shotgun or a full auto rifle.


Exactly.


That's why I assert that the .380 one might carry is far more defense than a
.45 one leaves at home.


That's, um, a given.


--
Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for.
-- Earl Warren
  #120   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 681
Default Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design

Ed Huntress wrote:

I have multiple springs for my .45; an Ace .22 conversion; a CO2 pellet
conversion for shooting in the basement; and a .38 Super barrel from my
short stint at shooting plates.


A Co2 conversion?
Never heard of such a thing, love to have one.

Details?
Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Amazingly Far OT - Steam Dragster J T Woodworking 0 January 22nd 07 05:35 AM
He'll be scolding in shallow Mikie until his coffee departs amazingly. Kinon O'cann Woodworking 0 June 27th 06 06:31 AM
The onion before the long winter is the goldsmith that rejects amazingly. Dave Balderstone Woodworking 0 May 20th 06 05:00 AM
DOD announced today the death of a soldier who was supporting Operation Enduring Freedom. Sgt. 1st Class John D. Morton, 31, ofStanton, Ky., died in Shah Wali Kot, Afghanistan on Dec. 15, when 1369.44.7.62 Woodworking 69 December 23rd 05 03:41 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:12 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 DIYbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about DIY & home improvement"