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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#81
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
"Ed Huntress" wrote:
Yeah. Here's one of their examples: "Me and Jen were teabagging last night when her mom walked in. Awkward." Better luck next time, Chris. Lets try wikipedia. TMI BTW. Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller |
#82
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
Buerste wrote:
"Don Foreman" wrote in message ... Monday, March 29, is the 99th anniversary of the legendary 1911 semiautomatic pistol designed by John Moses Browning. snip JB had a gift! I have a few of his designs and I appreciate them. I have a P08 that is truely a work of art but hasn't the practicality, durability or ease of mfg. of the 1911. The bad side is that many of my handguns, especially the P08 are now too valuable as "collector" pieces that I'm afraid to use them. The last appraisal I had on the P08 was over $4k, I wish I had one to shoot! Shooter grade P08s are readily available for under $1000 Indulge yourself ! |
#83
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
"Wes" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote: Yeah. Here's one of their examples: "Me and Jen were teabagging last night when her mom walked in. Awkward." Better luck next time, Chris. Lets try wikipedia. TMI BTW. Wes And what does it say, Wes? -- Ed Huntress |
#84
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
She can tell her grand kids when they ask "Gamma, what is a
gun?" -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Jon Anderson" wrote in message ... Before I sold it, I took my 16 year old daughter out to a nearby range and let her shoot my Combat Commander. I gave her a brief talk on how to hold it, and she had zero trouble. I shot video from the side, the recoil is apparent, but she had no trouble coming right back down on target. It was btw, the first handgun she ever fired. Jon |
#85
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
It was fine, when I wrote it. I sense you're the one who
didn't understand. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ... Looked up the term on the internet, after someone (probably an internet friend) told me so. http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...erm=teabagging The answer is R-rated. Yeah. Here's one of their examples: "Me and Jen were teabagging last night when her mom walked in. Awkward." Better luck next time, Chris. -- Ed Huntress |
#86
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
Ed asked me to clarify something I wrote earlier. I
clarified, and he keeps not understanding. I can't get too worried about that. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Wes" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote: Yeah. Here's one of their examples: "Me and Jen were teabagging last night when her mom walked in. Awkward." Better luck next time, Chris. Lets try wikipedia. TMI BTW. Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller |
#87
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Future Space programs Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
Let the Record show that cavelamb on or about
Sun, 28 Mar 2010 16:37:19 -0500 did write/type or cause to appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: Neither did NASA when we went to the moon. I wonder how much sooner we would have got there if the engineers had a scientific calculator instead of those books of logarithms? Wes You mean like - now??? I'm almost ready to believe that it was a one-time thing. Will we EVER go back? Should we go back? I wish I had taken notes, because I loaned the book. "Mars Direct" is the program, which figured that using the technology available in 1994, it was possible to put men on Mars for about 20 billion dollars. No need to invent space stations, moon bases, or "battle star galactica" multi-tonne Space Cruisers (you know the ones - a thousand meter long monsters with a crew of 5,000.). Two Saturn rocket (or equivalent) launches and the project is underway. Why not the Moon? Because, in short, you have to take everything with you, there's nothing there readily exploitable. Fuel for a return trip can be made on Mars - it's evidentially 1890s technology. Secondly in terms of delta V, the moon is almost as far as Mars. That is you have to spend money (fuel) all the way to the surface. On Mars, you can aero brake into orbiter, and land by parachute. And the environment on the Moon is hostile. Remember, earth plants are set up for a twenty four hour cycle, not 29 days. Personally, I don't care which way we go, but I'm more enthusiastic for a Mars mission. OTOH, Obama care will mean that there will be no money for any space program. Or any other future. pyotr - pyotr filipivich We will drink no whiskey before its nine. It's eight fifty eight. Close enough! |
#88
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Future Space programs Anniversary of an amazingly enduringdesign
pyotr filipivich wrote:
And the environment on the Moon is hostile. Remember, earth plants are set up for a twenty four hour cycle, not 29 days. Isn't one side of the moon always in the sun and the other dark? |
#89
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:45:42 -0700, the infamous Gunner Asch
scrawled the following: On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 08:24:43 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote: Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario. Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting situation...2.5 G Average range, 7 yrds I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be said of the 9mm And how long does it usually take to get that 2nd or 3rd round off? .2 seconds for the average shooter. Not with my Keltec P-11. It has a three inch/15lb pull trigger. Gotta learn to bumpfire the SKS for bigger parties. evil grinne I can fire 6 rounds in .85 seconds on 3 seperate targets spaced 5' apart (currently), but as is known..Ive been away from competition shooting for a few years and the stroke didnt help much. Shrug. Think thats fast enough? Lots and lots of guys are much much much faster. During my competition days...that time was below .5 seconds Yabbut, how many of those guys are going to come gunning for you in your home, etc? I think the average bad guy shoots a bit mroe slowly, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it. Did you have a better stat page for me? You didn't address that. -- Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for. -- Earl Warren |
#90
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
"Ed Huntress" wrote:
"Wes" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote: Yeah. Here's one of their examples: "Me and Jen were teabagging last night when her mom walked in. Awkward." Better luck next time, Chris. Lets try wikipedia. TMI BTW. Wes And what does it say, Wes? Sorry, I *thought* I posted the link. Wasn't very nice though. I'll try again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea-bagger I don't think the heterosexual explainations of the term were on Garafalo's nasty mind when she said: In April 2009, Garofalo drew criticism when she denounced the Tea Party protests, saying: “ Let's be very honest about what this is about. This is not about bashing Democrats. It's not about taxes. They have no idea what the Boston Tea Party was about. They don't know their history at all. It's about hating a black man in the White House. That is racism straight up. This is nothing but a bunch of teabagging rednecks.[17] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janeane_Garofalo Wes |
#91
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
RBnDFW wrote:
JB had a gift! I have a few of his designs and I appreciate them. I have a P08 that is truely a work of art but hasn't the practicality, durability or ease of mfg. of the 1911. The bad side is that many of my handguns, especially the P08 are now too valuable as "collector" pieces that I'm afraid to use them. The last appraisal I had on the P08 was over $4k, I wish I had one to shoot! Shooter grade P08s are readily available for under $1000 Indulge yourself ! I almost bought a P38 until I was clued it it was post war and had an alloy frame. I'll never have a real Luger though I have have a fun little Stoeger Luger .22 pistol which isn't the same thing but has the shape. http://pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/FIR...eger_luger.pdf Wes |
#92
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:27:00 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:59:33 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:17:37 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:25:44 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: Ignoramus11443 wrote: That's a very enduring design, yes. I actually own a Beretta and love it. How does that .45 handle, is the recoil a little too much? i I prefer 9mm personally, mostly for the high capacity. I have shot friend's .45s many times during the same shooting sessions as my 9mms and really didn't notice much difference in recoil. Given my tendency for carpal tunnel issues I would think I'd notice. I do notice a difference in recoil between my two S&W 9mms, one being metal frame and one being plastic frame with about 12oz weight difference and otherwise with the same barrel length and shooting the same ammunition. The lighter plastic frame 9mm has more pronounced recoil as you would expect with the lower weight / mass. High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a better tool? Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario. Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting situation...2.5 G Average range, 7 yrds I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be said of the 9mm I think the idea that a .45 is an elephant gun that will stop a subject with one shot and a 9mm is a pea shooter that couldn't stop a subject with a whole box of ammo is a bunch of nonsense just like Ford vs. Chevy vs. Dodge. the 45 is hardly an elephant gun and the 9mm is hardly a pea shooter. However...that the .45 is far superior to the 9mm is hardly an issue. http://www.chuckhawks.com/stopping_power_dialogue.htm http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/...eb.htm#page_15 http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf You may wish to study this chart.... http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm and review these articles.... http://www.mouseguns.com/amball.htm Carry what you want. If you carry a round that has minimal "stopping power", with luck, he might let you shoot him until he actually does go down. If not..he might simply kill you. Something to consider when carrying a firearm in the Real World Gunner 45acp with 230gr Golden Sabres 357 Mag with 125gr JHP .41 Mag with 210gr Golden Sabres My 9mm typically has either the 124gr JHP Golden Sabers, or 124gr FMJ Rangers. I also don't aim for CoM. If you DONT aim for center of mass, in a combat situation, you are going to have a very very nasty surprise in store for you. I hope you survive. Btw...the 9mm load you are shooting is on a par with the same load in 38 Special. Just a heads up. Gunner "First Law of Leftist Debate The more you present a leftist with factual evidence that is counter to his preconceived world view and the more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot, homophobe approaches infinity. This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to the subject." Grey Ghost |
#93
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Future Space programs Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:32:24 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote: Personally, I don't care which way we go, but I'm more enthusiastic for a Mars mission. Let me guess, you're against deficit spending as well... OTOH, Obama care will mean that there will be no money for any space program. Why don't you suggest hospitals on the moon? That makes way more sense than phony conservatives lobbying for a Mars mission. Wayne |
#94
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:27:00 -0500, the infamous "Pete C."
scrawled the following: Gunner Asch wrote: --snip of answer to question I asked earlier-- Carry what you want. If you carry a round that has minimal "stopping power", with luck, he might let you shoot him until he actually does go down. If not..he might simply kill you. Something to consider when carrying a firearm in the Real World Gunner 45acp with 230gr Golden Sabres 357 Mag with 125gr JHP .41 Mag with 210gr Golden Sabres My 9mm typically has either the 124gr JHP Golden Sabers, or 124gr FMJ Rangers. I also don't aim for CoM. Mine has Remington UMC 115gr JHP, 'cuz they were cheap for practice. I should buy some real ammo some time, huh? I guess that in the extra 0.4 secs it takes to put 2 more 9mm rounds in a bad guy, he won't be doing too much to stop us...IF we get off the first shot, or make our first shot count. So, you make headshots, just in case they're wearing armor? Good show, Pete. -- Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for. -- Earl Warren |
#95
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Future Space programs Anniversary of an amazingly enduringdesign
Jim Stewart wrote:
pyotr filipivich wrote: And the environment on the Moon is hostile. Remember, earth plants are set up for a twenty four hour cycle, not 29 days. Isn't one side of the moon always in the sun and the other dark? NO! -- Richard Lamb http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/ |
#96
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Future Space programs Anniversary of an amazingly enduringdesign
pyotr filipivich wrote:
Should we go back? I wish I had taken notes, because I loaned the book. "Mars Direct" is the program, which figured that using the technology available in 1994, it was possible to put men on Mars for about 20 billion dollars. No need to invent space stations, moon bases, or "battle star galactica" multi-tonne Space Cruisers (you know the ones - a thousand meter long monsters with a crew of 5,000.). Two Saturn rocket (or equivalent) launches and the project is underway. Why not the Moon? Because, in short, you have to take everything with you, there's nothing there readily exploitable. Fuel for a return trip can be made on Mars - it's evidentially 1890s technology. Secondly in terms of delta V, the moon is almost as far as Mars. That is you have to spend money (fuel) all the way to the surface. On Mars, you can aero brake into orbiter, and land by parachute. And the environment on the Moon is hostile. Remember, earth plants are set up for a twenty four hour cycle, not 29 days. Personally, I don't care which way we go, but I'm more enthusiastic for a Mars mission. OTOH, Obama care will mean that there will be no money for any space program. Or any other future. pyotr - pyotr filipivich It's about the depth of the gravity well, p. The moon (IMHO) was put there as a useful resource. Aluminum galore. LOTS of solar power. And - damit - water! So, you DON'T have to take every thing with you. You mine, refine, and manufacture - on the moon. Unless, of course, you want to go straight to Mars. (Which I doubt it really do-able) We NEED a moon base... Heck, check the escape velocity numbers. You can THROW stuff up to orbit from the moon. (solar powered linear accelerators) Had we set up a moon base back in the 70s - 80s, I'd bet we'd be ON Mars by now. But without that "tree house in the sky"? We aren't going anywhere. Ever. -- Richard Lamb http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/ |
#97
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Future Space programs
It's been a long time since grade school. But I some how
remember that one side of the moon is always light, the other always dark. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "cavelamb" wrote in message ... Isn't one side of the moon always in the sun and the other dark? NO! -- Richard Lamb http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/ |
#98
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Future Space programs
Stormin Mormon wrote:
It's been a long time since grade school. But I some how remember that one side of the moon is always light, the other always dark. Nope. If keeps one face toward us (more or less). We never see the other side of the moon. But the Sun does - about 1/2 of the time. From Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbit_of_the_Moon Libration Animation of the Moon as it cycles through its phases. The apparent wobbling of the Moon is known as libration. The Moon is in synchronous rotation, meaning that it keeps the same face turned toward the Earth at all times. This synchronous rotation is only true on average because the Moon's orbit has a definite eccentricity. As a result, the angular velocity of the Moon varies as it moves around the Earth, and is hence not always equal to the Moon's rotational velocity. When the Moon is at its perigee, its rotation is slower than its orbital motion, and this allows us to see up to eight degrees of longitude of its eastern (right) far side. Conversely, when the Moon reaches its apogee, its rotation is faster than its orbital motion and this reveals eight degrees of longitude of its western (left) far side. This is referred to as longitudinal libration. Because the lunar orbit is also inclined to the Earth's ecliptic plane by 5.1°, the rotation axis of the Moon seems to rotate towards and away from us during one complete orbit. This is referred to as latitudinal libration, which allows one to see almost 7° of latitude beyond the pole on the far side. Finally, because the Moon is only about 60 Earth radii away from the Earth's center of mass, an observer at the equator who observes the Moon throughout the night moves laterally by one Earth diameter. This gives rise to a diurnal libration, which allows one to view an additional one degree's worth of lunar longitude. For the same reason, observers at both geographical poles of the Earth would be able to see one additional degree's worth of libration in latitude. -- Richard Lamb http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/ |
#99
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
cavelamb wrote in
m: RAM³ wrote: cavelamb wrote in : Don Foreman wrote: On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 16:32:01 -0500, Wes wrote: cavelamb wrote: And, he didn't have AutoCAD or Alibre to do his designs VBG Karl Neither did NASA when we went to the moon. I wonder how much sooner we would have got there if the engineers had a scientific calculator instead of those books of logarithms? Wes That capability was available if needed. There were Frieden calculators, Kurta calculators, and FORTRAN became commercially available in 1957. I beg to argue, Don. Even through the late 1960s, the term "computer" referred to a woman who operated an "adding machine". Even at NASA. And - even I had a handy dandy slide rule. Mine is a Decilon 8 inch. I still have it and can still do (simple!) manipulations on it. But FORTRAN, while in the universities before late 60s, was not widely used until much later. NASA was mainly doing "machine" (not even Assembly!). Heck, I know a guy who almost invented time sharing Visicalc - but his boss though real computer time was to valuable for any such silliness! At least that's the way I remember it... Your memory is faulty. grin In '64 the tiny college in Kingsville, TX, was using an IBM 1620 (with an "astounding" 40K BITS of magnetic core storage) to not only keep the student records and the financial records of the institution but was providing the Celenese plant at Bishop, TX, with accounting services. This was in addition to teaching students to program the machine in machine code, assembly language, Fortran, Fortran With Format, Fortran II, and FORGO (a compile-and-go variant of Fortran). The "Business Schools" of the '66-'70 period often offered Fortran IV and COBOL programming "degrees" to their "students". Cobol, BTW, had already become the standard for business applications. I signed on with the City of Houston as a beginning programmer in early '68 and envied the salaries of those at NASA in Clear Lake. (After all, 50% differential is significant.) While there was some assembler work being done (at both sites) the bulk of the activity was in COBOL with some FORTRAN activity remaining. (Most of the really cute code was already in production by then.) I was referring to NASA, but ok, won't make a federal case out of it. But the NASA stuff - oh boy - orbital rendezvous, burn times and attitudes, mission stuff - once that was pretty much debugged, it became holy code. You know that once someone got a program running it would be used forever. (witness the Y2K scare in commercial circles) chuckling Some code that I wrote in the '60s is still in production. grin So while the new kids came in with their fancy new languages, the old geezers who wrote the original stuff kept right on banging bits together. As an old "bit banger", myself, I learned early on to appreciate the use of assemblers/compilers as, quite simply, a faster way to handle a lot of the "housekeeping". One nice feature of several companies' compilers was the ability to start out with an "envelope" using one language, shift into another one, pop back into the "envelope" and, then, shift into yet another one before going back to the original *all while doing in-line code*. These "hybrids" enabled functionality that, otherwise, would have proven exceptionally difficult if not impossible. [Yah, I wound up doing a lot of "unique" code over the years. grin] And if we go back to the early missions like Mercury... Rock for zero, stick for one... |
#100
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
Gunner Asch wrote: On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:27:00 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:59:33 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:17:37 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:25:44 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: Ignoramus11443 wrote: That's a very enduring design, yes. I actually own a Beretta and love it. How does that .45 handle, is the recoil a little too much? i I prefer 9mm personally, mostly for the high capacity. I have shot friend's .45s many times during the same shooting sessions as my 9mms and really didn't notice much difference in recoil. Given my tendency for carpal tunnel issues I would think I'd notice. I do notice a difference in recoil between my two S&W 9mms, one being metal frame and one being plastic frame with about 12oz weight difference and otherwise with the same barrel length and shooting the same ammunition. The lighter plastic frame 9mm has more pronounced recoil as you would expect with the lower weight / mass. High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a better tool? Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario. Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting situation...2.5 G Average range, 7 yrds I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be said of the 9mm I think the idea that a .45 is an elephant gun that will stop a subject with one shot and a 9mm is a pea shooter that couldn't stop a subject with a whole box of ammo is a bunch of nonsense just like Ford vs. Chevy vs. Dodge. the 45 is hardly an elephant gun and the 9mm is hardly a pea shooter. However...that the .45 is far superior to the 9mm is hardly an issue. http://www.chuckhawks.com/stopping_power_dialogue.htm http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/...eb.htm#page_15 http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf You may wish to study this chart.... http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm and review these articles.... http://www.mouseguns.com/amball.htm Carry what you want. If you carry a round that has minimal "stopping power", with luck, he might let you shoot him until he actually does go down. If not..he might simply kill you. Something to consider when carrying a firearm in the Real World Gunner 45acp with 230gr Golden Sabres 357 Mag with 125gr JHP .41 Mag with 210gr Golden Sabres My 9mm typically has either the 124gr JHP Golden Sabers, or 124gr FMJ Rangers. I also don't aim for CoM. If you DONT aim for center of mass, in a combat situation, you are going to have a very very nasty surprise in store for you. I hope you survive. I presume that the perp may have body armor. 9mm or .45 aint' going to make any difference if a CoM shot hits BA. I aim a little higher to ensure the desired effect BA or no. Btw...the 9mm load you are shooting is on a par with the same load in 38 Special. Just a heads up. The Rangers are NATO. |
#101
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
Larry Jaques wrote: On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:27:00 -0500, the infamous "Pete C." scrawled the following: Gunner Asch wrote: --snip of answer to question I asked earlier-- Carry what you want. If you carry a round that has minimal "stopping power", with luck, he might let you shoot him until he actually does go down. If not..he might simply kill you. Something to consider when carrying a firearm in the Real World Gunner 45acp with 230gr Golden Sabres 357 Mag with 125gr JHP .41 Mag with 210gr Golden Sabres My 9mm typically has either the 124gr JHP Golden Sabers, or 124gr FMJ Rangers. I also don't aim for CoM. Mine has Remington UMC 115gr JHP, 'cuz they were cheap for practice. I should buy some real ammo some time, huh? I guess that in the extra 0.4 secs it takes to put 2 more 9mm rounds in a bad guy, he won't be doing too much to stop us...IF we get off the first shot, or make our first shot count. The perp always has the element of surprise. Getting that first shot off is the key part, regardless of what caliber you choose. So, you make headshots, just in case they're wearing armor? Good show, Pete. Have to presume they have BA. 9mm or .45 won't do diddly if it hits BA. |
#102
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ... It was fine, when I wrote it. I sense you're the one who didn't understand. Chris, you may be living a sheltered life, but in the NYC metro area, the term has been around for decades. It never had a particularly homosexual connotation that I recall. As your own "dictionary" said by example, and as the Wikipedia reference that West referred to says, it's a term that applies to heterosexuals and homosexuals alike. What's going on here is that the teabaggers, who are mostly traditional conservatives and reactionaries, tend to be homophobes as well. It's part of the package. So they took offense, and off it went. But the offense is a reflection on their own homophobia and misunderstanding. They created a pejorative for themselves, and handed it to the people who like to make fun of them. They aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer. -- Ed Huntress -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ... Looked up the term on the internet, after someone (probably an internet friend) told me so. http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...erm=teabagging The answer is R-rated. Yeah. Here's one of their examples: "Me and Jen were teabagging last night when her mom walked in. Awkward." Better luck next time, Chris. -- Ed Huntress |
#103
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
"Wes" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote: "Wes" wrote in message ... "Ed Huntress" wrote: Yeah. Here's one of their examples: "Me and Jen were teabagging last night when her mom walked in. Awkward." Better luck next time, Chris. Lets try wikipedia. TMI BTW. Wes And what does it say, Wes? Sorry, I *thought* I posted the link. Wasn't very nice though. I'll try again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea-bagger I don't think the heterosexual explainations of the term were on Garafalo's nasty mind when she said: In April 2009, Garofalo drew criticism when she denounced the Tea Party protests, saying: " Let's be very honest about what this is about. This is not about bashing Democrats. It's not about taxes. They have no idea what the Boston Tea Party was about. They don't know their history at all. It's about hating a black man in the White House. That is racism straight up. This is nothing but a bunch of teabagging rednecks.[17] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janeane_Garofalo It's unlikely that more than a handful of tea people even know who Janeane Garofalo is, Wes. She doesn't play in the kinds of venues you're expect them to attend. And there's no way she would use a term as a homophobic slur, and expect it to be taken as a put-down. That just isn't her. As I said to Chris, this is a pejorative the teabaggers created for themselves. They had no trouble with the term until they found out that it has a sexual application. For example, this woman, who is one of my favorite teabaggers g: http://blogtown.portlandmercury.com/...or-jesus-today -- Ed Huntress |
#104
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Future Space programs
"Stormin Mormon" writes:
It's been a long time since grade school. But I some how remember that one side of the moon is always light, the other always dark. Please tell me you're joking. Just in case you're not, the moon is tidally locked, which means one side always faces the earth. We refer to the side away from the earth as the "dark side" of the moon (cue Pink Floyd), but it isn't actually always dark. -- As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours; and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin) |
#105
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:55:09 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote: On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:45:42 -0700, the infamous Gunner Asch scrawled the following: On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 08:24:43 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote: Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario. Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting situation...2.5 G Average range, 7 yrds I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be said of the 9mm And how long does it usually take to get that 2nd or 3rd round off? .2 seconds for the average shooter. Not with my Keltec P-11. It has a three inch/15lb pull trigger. Gotta learn to bumpfire the SKS for bigger parties. evil grinne I can fire 6 rounds in .85 seconds on 3 seperate targets spaced 5' apart (currently), but as is known..Ive been away from competition shooting for a few years and the stroke didnt help much. Shrug. Think thats fast enough? Lots and lots of guys are much much much faster. During my competition days...that time was below .5 seconds Yabbut, how many of those guys are going to come gunning for you in your home, etc? I think the average bad guy shoots a bit mroe slowly, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it. The average bad guy only kills 20% of the people he actually shoots. The average good guy does much better. Did you have a better stat page for me? You didn't address that. \ Which stats are you looking for? Gunner "First Law of Leftist Debate The more you present a leftist with factual evidence that is counter to his preconceived world view and the more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot, homophobe approaches infinity. This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to the subject." Grey Ghost |
#106
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 21:03:34 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:27:00 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:59:33 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:17:37 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:25:44 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: Ignoramus11443 wrote: That's a very enduring design, yes. I actually own a Beretta and love it. How does that .45 handle, is the recoil a little too much? i I prefer 9mm personally, mostly for the high capacity. I have shot friend's .45s many times during the same shooting sessions as my 9mms and really didn't notice much difference in recoil. Given my tendency for carpal tunnel issues I would think I'd notice. I do notice a difference in recoil between my two S&W 9mms, one being metal frame and one being plastic frame with about 12oz weight difference and otherwise with the same barrel length and shooting the same ammunition. The lighter plastic frame 9mm has more pronounced recoil as you would expect with the lower weight / mass. High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a better tool? Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario. Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting situation...2.5 G Average range, 7 yrds I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be said of the 9mm I think the idea that a .45 is an elephant gun that will stop a subject with one shot and a 9mm is a pea shooter that couldn't stop a subject with a whole box of ammo is a bunch of nonsense just like Ford vs. Chevy vs. Dodge. the 45 is hardly an elephant gun and the 9mm is hardly a pea shooter. However...that the .45 is far superior to the 9mm is hardly an issue. http://www.chuckhawks.com/stopping_power_dialogue.htm http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/...eb.htm#page_15 http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf You may wish to study this chart.... http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm and review these articles.... http://www.mouseguns.com/amball.htm Carry what you want. If you carry a round that has minimal "stopping power", with luck, he might let you shoot him until he actually does go down. If not..he might simply kill you. Something to consider when carrying a firearm in the Real World Gunner 45acp with 230gr Golden Sabres 357 Mag with 125gr JHP .41 Mag with 210gr Golden Sabres My 9mm typically has either the 124gr JHP Golden Sabers, or 124gr FMJ Rangers. I also don't aim for CoM. If you DONT aim for center of mass, in a combat situation, you are going to have a very very nasty surprise in store for you. I hope you survive. I presume that the perp may have body armor. 9mm or .45 aint' going to make any difference if a CoM shot hits BA. I aim a little higher to ensure the desired effect BA or no. Then you run with a much different crowd than the average person does. In that case, a decent battle rifle would be appropriate. Few street shootings involve bad guys wearing armor. Skull shots are good, if you can reliably do them while they are shooting at you and your heart is going 250mph. Been thered, done that. Shrug. Btw...the 9mm load you are shooting is on a par with the same load in 38 Special. Just a heads up. The Rangers are NATO. Which Rangers? Gunner, 75th, 71-73 "First Law of Leftist Debate The more you present a leftist with factual evidence that is counter to his preconceived world view and the more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot, homophobe approaches infinity. This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to the subject." Grey Ghost |
#107
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 01:09:24 -0500, cavelamb
wrote: Don Foreman wrote: On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 16:32:01 -0500, Wes wrote: cavelamb wrote: And, he didn't have AutoCAD or Alibre to do his designs VBG Karl Neither did NASA when we went to the moon. I wonder how much sooner we would have got there if the engineers had a scientific calculator instead of those books of logarithms? Wes That capability was available if needed. There were Frieden calculators, Kurta calculators, and FORTRAN became commercially available in 1957. I beg to argue, Don. Even through the late 1960s, the term "computer" referred to a woman who operated an "adding machine". Even at NASA. And - even I had a handy dandy slide rule. Mine is a Decilon 8 inch. I still have it and can still do (simple!) manipulations on it. But FORTRAN, while in the universities before late 60s, was not widely used until much later. NASA was mainly doing "machine" (not even Assembly!). Heck, I know a guy who almost invented time sharing Visicalc - but his boss though real computer time was to valuable for any such silliness! At least that's the way I remember it... I'll defer to you about what NASA was doing. FORTRAN was definitely being used in universities in the early 60's, and at Honeywell Aerospace in the mid-60's. My intro, about 1967, was total immersion. My boss gave me an assignment that required writing a program to reduce some gyro test data. I told him I didn't know diddly squat about computers, I was not the guy for this assignment. I was quite happy with my slipstick. (Post Versalog, still have it) He said, "it's your assignment, we need it by end of day Friday." That was on Wednesday. I'll bet this guy was one hell of a swimming instructor. I found a book: McCracken, Daniel D. (1966), A Guide to Fortran IV Programming (1 ed.). Someone introduced me to a timeshare terminal (ASR-33 teletype) and showed me how to log on. I hurt my head for two days with not much sleep, got 'er done. The gyro data got reduced correctly and the project got caught up shortly thereafter because they could analyze a test run in minutes instead of hours. I was intimidated by computers before that, but not afterwards. I'd been using FORTRAN for a while before I got my first engineering calculator, a used HP-35 for $150 when a decent house in a good neighborhood could be bought for $30K. |
#108
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:27:00 -0500, the infamous "Pete C." scrawled the following: Gunner Asch wrote: --snip of answer to question I asked earlier-- Carry what you want. If you carry a round that has minimal "stopping power", with luck, he might let you shoot him until he actually does go down. If not..he might simply kill you. Something to consider when carrying a firearm in the Real World Gunner 45acp with 230gr Golden Sabres 357 Mag with 125gr JHP .41 Mag with 210gr Golden Sabres My 9mm typically has either the 124gr JHP Golden Sabers, or 124gr FMJ Rangers. I also don't aim for CoM. Mine has Remington UMC 115gr JHP, 'cuz they were cheap for practice. I should buy some real ammo some time, huh? I guess that in the extra 0.4 secs it takes to put 2 more 9mm rounds in a bad guy, he won't be doing too much to stop us...IF we get off the first shot, or make our first shot count. So, you make headshots, just in case they're wearing armor? Good show, Pete. -- Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for. -- Earl Warren One thing with a head shot, usually ONE is enough to stop the perp... Now if your carry piece is a .454 Casull or a .500 S&W or other hand cannon, Well lets just say a head shot is REALLY messy.... COM may be a bit better for the ME to clean up. -- Steve W. |
#109
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
"Steve W." wrote: Larry Jaques wrote: On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:27:00 -0500, the infamous "Pete C." scrawled the following: Gunner Asch wrote: --snip of answer to question I asked earlier-- Carry what you want. If you carry a round that has minimal "stopping power", with luck, he might let you shoot him until he actually does go down. If not..he might simply kill you. Something to consider when carrying a firearm in the Real World Gunner 45acp with 230gr Golden Sabres 357 Mag with 125gr JHP .41 Mag with 210gr Golden Sabres My 9mm typically has either the 124gr JHP Golden Sabers, or 124gr FMJ Rangers. I also don't aim for CoM. Mine has Remington UMC 115gr JHP, 'cuz they were cheap for practice. I should buy some real ammo some time, huh? I guess that in the extra 0.4 secs it takes to put 2 more 9mm rounds in a bad guy, he won't be doing too much to stop us...IF we get off the first shot, or make our first shot count. So, you make headshots, just in case they're wearing armor? Good show, Pete. -- Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for. -- Earl Warren One thing with a head shot, usually ONE is enough to stop the perp... Now if your carry piece is a .454 Casull or a .500 S&W or other hand cannon, Well lets just say a head shot is REALLY messy.... COM may be a bit better for the ME to clean up. Then use a M72. ;-) -- Lead free solder is Belgium's version of 'Hold my beer and watch this!' |
#110
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
"Gunner Asch" wrote in message ... On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:17:37 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:25:44 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: Ignoramus11443 wrote: That's a very enduring design, yes. I actually own a Beretta and love it. How does that .45 handle, is the recoil a little too much? i I prefer 9mm personally, mostly for the high capacity. I have shot friend's .45s many times during the same shooting sessions as my 9mms and really didn't notice much difference in recoil. Given my tendency for carpal tunnel issues I would think I'd notice. I do notice a difference in recoil between my two S&W 9mms, one being metal frame and one being plastic frame with about 12oz weight difference and otherwise with the same barrel length and shooting the same ammunition. The lighter plastic frame 9mm has more pronounced recoil as you would expect with the lower weight / mass. High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a better tool? Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario. Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting situation...2.5 G Average range, 7 yrds I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be said of the 9mm Gunner That can't be said of the .40 or .45 either. The probability of a one-shot stop is higher with the more powerful rounds, but it's far from a certainty. Shot placement is far more important than caliber or power. A .22 rimfire hollowpoint is a one-shot drop if the shot is perfectly placed. Ask any assassin. My dad was killed with one shot from a .22 rimfire. A shotgun with #4 buck gets 'er done because of the high probability of one of the coupla dozen little 24-caliber (6 mm) balls hitting something that will result in instant incapacitation. 6mm is smaler than 9mm. Bigger ammo does more damage per wound channel but instant drop requires that damage be done to very specific locations. Handgun ammo, unlike much higher velocity smaller caliber 5.62 mm (.223 caliber) rifle ammo, does not deliver sufficent hydrostatic shock to matter, so a stop/drop hit must impact spine, brain, heart, or other organ that will result in instant shock, or pelvis that can result in incapacitating pain but that's iffy with drug-crazed assailants who feel no pain. Hitting such key small locations, short of head shots, is well beyond the marksmanship capability of most shooters, perhaps all shooters in a stress sit. I can repeatedly hit the face of an assailant at 7 yards but there's no way I'd bet I could hit his spine when we're both moving, in dark or low light, stoked with adrenaline. Ability to accurately place several shots very rapidly is much more likely to drop an assailant than having a bigger gun. I did say accurately, but I'm not talking bullseye here but several rounds to COM and a couple to head at short range. Self defense is a dynamic, adrenaline-charged scared-****less short-range activity, not a military activity done by young men in a high state of training. I assert that the best tactic is to use a weapon/caliber that the individual, young or old, male or female, big or small, strong or weak, liberal or conservative, can best deliver most fire with workable accuracy in a very few seconds of time. That's why nobody disputes the effectiveness of a shotgun or a full auto rifle. Most occasional shooters can deliver accurate rapid fire much better with a 9mm than they can with a .40 or .45, and the nines hold more ammo. A .380 is a one-shot drop if shot placement is right. A .380 with 7 rounds fired rapidly enough to hit at point blank range has far higher probability of stop than one hit from a .45ACP. The objective is to stop, no bonus for doing it in one shot. Get it done with as many shots as it takes, accurately delivered to drop the assailant. That's why I assert that the .380 one might carry is far more defense than a ..45 one leaves at home. It's a moot point for those who routinely carry a ..45 and can shoot it well. I do shoot a .45 respectably but I don't care to pack one though I do have a holster for my Colt Officer's and my instructor in the CQB (close quarters battle) training I did with that pistol thought I shot it respectably. I don't even pack a .380 most days. We've had this joust before, Gunner. Not saying you're wrong , just sayin' that the solution you find right for you may not be right for others. |
#111
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
"Ed Huntress" wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janeane_Garofalo It's unlikely that more than a handful of tea people even know who Janeane Garofalo is, Wes. She doesn't play in the kinds of venues you're expect them to attend. And there's no way she would use a term as a homophobic slur, and expect it to be taken as a put-down. That just isn't her. You know what a double entendre is. I've seen more of her than I'd really like. One of the risks of having your dvr record the daily show and colbert and stay on channel. The TV is on at night to help mask the tinnitus. Wes |
#112
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
On Tue, 30 Mar 2010 01:40:41 -0400, "Steve W."
wrote: Larry Jaques wrote: On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:27:00 -0500, the infamous "Pete C." scrawled the following: Gunner Asch wrote: --snip of answer to question I asked earlier-- Carry what you want. If you carry a round that has minimal "stopping power", with luck, he might let you shoot him until he actually does go down. If not..he might simply kill you. Something to consider when carrying a firearm in the Real World Gunner 45acp with 230gr Golden Sabres 357 Mag with 125gr JHP .41 Mag with 210gr Golden Sabres My 9mm typically has either the 124gr JHP Golden Sabers, or 124gr FMJ Rangers. I also don't aim for CoM. Mine has Remington UMC 115gr JHP, 'cuz they were cheap for practice. I should buy some real ammo some time, huh? I guess that in the extra 0.4 secs it takes to put 2 more 9mm rounds in a bad guy, he won't be doing too much to stop us...IF we get off the first shot, or make our first shot count. So, you make headshots, just in case they're wearing armor? Good show, Pete. -- Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for. -- Earl Warren One thing with a head shot, usually ONE is enough to stop the perp... Pretty much. Though I did see a guy get hit in the head with a .45 hardball. It hit just above the hairline and bounced straight up. Knocked his dick in the dirt however. He lived with no complications. Crom was smiling on him. Now if your carry piece is a .454 Casull or a .500 S&W or other hand cannon, Well lets just say a head shot is REALLY messy.... COM may be a bit better for the ME to clean up. "First Law of Leftist Debate The more you present a leftist with factual evidence that is counter to his preconceived world view and the more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot, homophobe approaches infinity. This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to the subject." Grey Ghost |
#113
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
On Tue, 30 Mar 2010 02:18:27 -0500, "Don Foreman"
wrote: "Gunner Asch" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:17:37 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:25:44 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: Ignoramus11443 wrote: That's a very enduring design, yes. I actually own a Beretta and love it. How does that .45 handle, is the recoil a little too much? i I prefer 9mm personally, mostly for the high capacity. I have shot friend's .45s many times during the same shooting sessions as my 9mms and really didn't notice much difference in recoil. Given my tendency for carpal tunnel issues I would think I'd notice. I do notice a difference in recoil between my two S&W 9mms, one being metal frame and one being plastic frame with about 12oz weight difference and otherwise with the same barrel length and shooting the same ammunition. The lighter plastic frame 9mm has more pronounced recoil as you would expect with the lower weight / mass. High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a better tool? Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario. Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting situation...2.5 G Average range, 7 yrds I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be said of the 9mm Gunner That can't be said of the .40 or .45 either. It can, 98% of the time...but only 61% of the time with a 9mikemike. The probability of a one-shot stop is higher with the more powerful rounds, but it's far from a certainty. Shot placement is far more important than caliber or power. A .22 rimfire hollowpoint is a one-shot drop if the shot is perfectly placed. Ask any assassin. My dad was killed with one shot from a .22 rimfire. A shotgun with #4 buck gets 'er done because of the high probability of one of the coupla dozen little 24-caliber (6 mm) balls hitting something that will result in instant incapacitation. 6mm is smaler than 9mm. Bigger ammo does more damage per wound channel but instant drop requires that damage be done to very specific locations. Handgun ammo, unlike much higher velocity smaller caliber 5.62 mm (.223 caliber) rifle ammo, does not deliver sufficent hydrostatic shock to matter, so a stop/drop hit must impact spine, brain, heart, or other organ that will result in instant shock, or pelvis that can result in incapacitating pain but that's iffy with drug-crazed assailants who feel no pain. Indeed. Though packing a shotgun in a shoulder rig is problematic. Hitting such key small locations, short of head shots, is well beyond the marksmanship capability of most shooters, perhaps all shooters in a stress sit. I can repeatedly hit the face of an assailant at 7 yards but there's no way I'd bet I could hit his spine when we're both moving, in dark or low light, stoked with adrenaline. As I told Pete C. Though center of mass is relatively easy based on my experience with amatures who had to shoot in self defense. Ability to accurately place several shots very rapidly is much more likely to drop an assailant than having a bigger gun. I did say accurately, but I'm not talking bullseye here but several rounds to COM and a couple to head at short range. Self defense is a dynamic, adrenaline-charged scared-****less short-range activity, not a military activity done by young men in a high state of training. I assert that the best tactic is to use a weapon/caliber that the individual, young or old, male or female, big or small, strong or weak, liberal or conservative, can best deliver most fire with workable accuracy in a very few seconds of time. That's why nobody disputes the effectiveness of a shotgun or a full auto rifle. Most occasional shooters can deliver accurate rapid fire much better with a 9mm than they can with a .40 or .45, and the nines hold more ammo. Occasional shooters? Oh..you mean people who shouldnt be carrying a deadly weapon? A .380 is a one-shot drop if shot placement is right. A .380 with 7 rounds fired rapidly enough to hit at point blank range has far higher probability of stop than one hit from a .45ACP. The objective is to stop, no bonus for doing it in one shot. Get it done with as many shots as it takes, accurately delivered to drop the assailant. The problem with that is..he may not let you shoot him a bunch of times before he crushes your skull with a rock. That's why I assert that the .380 one might carry is far more defense than a .45 one leaves at home. It's a moot point for those who routinely carry a .45 and can shoot it well. I do shoot a .45 respectably but I don't care to pack one though I do have a holster for my Colt Officer's and my instructor in the CQB (close quarters battle) training I did with that pistol thought I shot it respectably. I don't even pack a .380 most days. We've had this joust before, Gunner. Not saying you're wrong , just sayin' that the solution you find right for you may not be right for others. True enough. You stick to the mouse guns and Ill stick to the man stoppers I dont have to shoot a guy 9 times with. Deal? Gunner "First Law of Leftist Debate The more you present a leftist with factual evidence that is counter to his preconceived world view and the more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot, homophobe approaches infinity. This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to the subject." Grey Ghost |
#114
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
Gunner Asch wrote: On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 21:03:34 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:27:00 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:59:33 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:17:37 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:25:44 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: Ignoramus11443 wrote: That's a very enduring design, yes. I actually own a Beretta and love it. How does that .45 handle, is the recoil a little too much? i I prefer 9mm personally, mostly for the high capacity. I have shot friend's .45s many times during the same shooting sessions as my 9mms and really didn't notice much difference in recoil. Given my tendency for carpal tunnel issues I would think I'd notice. I do notice a difference in recoil between my two S&W 9mms, one being metal frame and one being plastic frame with about 12oz weight difference and otherwise with the same barrel length and shooting the same ammunition. The lighter plastic frame 9mm has more pronounced recoil as you would expect with the lower weight / mass. High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a better tool? Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario. Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting situation...2.5 G Average range, 7 yrds I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be said of the 9mm I think the idea that a .45 is an elephant gun that will stop a subject with one shot and a 9mm is a pea shooter that couldn't stop a subject with a whole box of ammo is a bunch of nonsense just like Ford vs. Chevy vs. Dodge. the 45 is hardly an elephant gun and the 9mm is hardly a pea shooter. However...that the .45 is far superior to the 9mm is hardly an issue. http://www.chuckhawks.com/stopping_power_dialogue.htm http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/...eb.htm#page_15 http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf You may wish to study this chart.... http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm and review these articles.... http://www.mouseguns.com/amball.htm Carry what you want. If you carry a round that has minimal "stopping power", with luck, he might let you shoot him until he actually does go down. If not..he might simply kill you. Something to consider when carrying a firearm in the Real World Gunner 45acp with 230gr Golden Sabres 357 Mag with 125gr JHP .41 Mag with 210gr Golden Sabres My 9mm typically has either the 124gr JHP Golden Sabers, or 124gr FMJ Rangers. I also don't aim for CoM. If you DONT aim for center of mass, in a combat situation, you are going to have a very very nasty surprise in store for you. I hope you survive. I presume that the perp may have body armor. 9mm or .45 aint' going to make any difference if a CoM shot hits BA. I aim a little higher to ensure the desired effect BA or no. Then you run with a much different crowd than the average person does. In that case, a decent battle rifle would be appropriate. Few street shootings involve bad guys wearing armor. Skull shots are good, if you can reliably do them while they are shooting at you and your heart is going 250mph. Been thered, done that. Shrug. I just focus on what will have the highest probability of the desired effect. Btw...the 9mm load you are shooting is on a par with the same load in 38 Special. Just a heads up. The Rangers are NATO. Which Rangers? Winchester. |
#115
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 21:03:34 -0500, the infamous "Pete C."
scrawled the following: The Rangers are NATO. But are they UN approved? dg&r -- Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for. -- Earl Warren |
#116
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
On Tue, 30 Mar 2010 01:40:41 -0400, the infamous "Steve W."
scrawled the following: Larry Jaques wrote: On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:27:00 -0500, the infamous "Pete C." scrawled the following: Gunner Asch wrote: --snip of answer to question I asked earlier-- Carry what you want. If you carry a round that has minimal "stopping power", with luck, he might let you shoot him until he actually does go down. If not..he might simply kill you. Something to consider when carrying a firearm in the Real World Gunner 45acp with 230gr Golden Sabres 357 Mag with 125gr JHP .41 Mag with 210gr Golden Sabres My 9mm typically has either the 124gr JHP Golden Sabers, or 124gr FMJ Rangers. I also don't aim for CoM. Mine has Remington UMC 115gr JHP, 'cuz they were cheap for practice. I should buy some real ammo some time, huh? I guess that in the extra 0.4 secs it takes to put 2 more 9mm rounds in a bad guy, he won't be doing too much to stop us...IF we get off the first shot, or make our first shot count. So, you make headshots, just in case they're wearing armor? Good show, Pete. -- Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for. -- Earl Warren One thing with a head shot, usually ONE is enough to stop the perp... One stop is good enough for me. Now if your carry piece is a .454 Casull or a .500 S&W or other hand cannon, Well lets just say a head shot is REALLY messy.... COM may be a bit better for the ME to clean up. Kinda "pink misty", like a Barrett .50 BMG round, huh? -- Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for. -- Earl Warren |
#117
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 20:59:48 -0700, the infamous Gunner Asch
scrawled the following: On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:55:09 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote: On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:45:42 -0700, the infamous Gunner Asch scrawled the following: On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 08:24:43 -0700, Larry Jaques wrote: Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario. Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting situation...2.5 G Average range, 7 yrds I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be said of the 9mm And how long does it usually take to get that 2nd or 3rd round off? .2 seconds for the average shooter. Not with my Keltec P-11. It has a three inch/15lb pull trigger. Gotta learn to bumpfire the SKS for bigger parties. evil grinne I can fire 6 rounds in .85 seconds on 3 seperate targets spaced 5' apart (currently), but as is known..Ive been away from competition shooting for a few years and the stroke didnt help much. Shrug. Think thats fast enough? Lots and lots of guys are much much much faster. During my competition days...that time was below .5 seconds Yabbut, how many of those guys are going to come gunning for you in your home, etc? I think the average bad guy shoots a bit mroe slowly, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it. The average bad guy only kills 20% of the people he actually shoots. Good! The average good guy does much better. Much better news! Did you have a better stat page for me? You didn't address that. \ Which stats are you looking for? You answered it handily with your post full of links to Pete yesterday. I was looking for stopping power by caliber charts. Interestingly enough, some of the one-stop stats for the Golden Sabers are low. 9mm CorBon +P = 91%, 9mm Rem Golden Saber +P = 83%. http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm -- Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for. -- Earl Warren |
#118
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
Larry Jaques wrote: On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 21:03:34 -0500, the infamous "Pete C." scrawled the following: The Rangers are NATO. But are they UN approved? dg&r Probably. You can check on the Winchester site. |
#119
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
On Tue, 30 Mar 2010 02:18:27 -0500, the infamous "Don Foreman"
scrawled the following: "Gunner Asch" wrote in message .. . On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:17:37 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: Gunner Asch wrote: On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:25:44 -0500, "Pete C." wrote: Ignoramus11443 wrote: That's a very enduring design, yes. I actually own a Beretta and love it. How does that .45 handle, is the recoil a little too much? i I prefer 9mm personally, mostly for the high capacity. I have shot friend's .45s many times during the same shooting sessions as my 9mms and really didn't notice much difference in recoil. Given my tendency for carpal tunnel issues I would think I'd notice. I do notice a difference in recoil between my two S&W 9mms, one being metal frame and one being plastic frame with about 12oz weight difference and otherwise with the same barrel length and shooting the same ammunition. The lighter plastic frame 9mm has more pronounced recoil as you would expect with the lower weight / mass. High capacity? How many people do you figure are going to be attacking you at one time? If its more than 3..doncha think a rifle would be a better tool? Zero would be my preference. I just don't want to have any real possibility of going empty in any reasonably probable scenario. Average number of rounds fired in a self defense shooting situation...2.5 G Average range, 7 yrds I think you are going to be pretty safe with a 8 rd weapon that can actually stop someone with the first round. That unfortunately cant be said of the 9mm Gunner That can't be said of the .40 or .45 either. The probability of a one-shot stop is higher with the more powerful rounds, but it's far from a certainty. Shot placement is far more important than caliber or power. A .22 rimfire hollowpoint is a one-shot drop if the shot is perfectly placed. Ask any assassin. My dad was killed with one shot from a .22 rimfire. I believe it was the FBI report Gunner linked to yesterday which said that more people are killed by .22 rimfires than any other bullet. (Sorry to hear that about your dad, Don.) A shotgun with #4 buck gets 'er done because of the high probability of one of the coupla dozen little 24-caliber (6 mm) balls hitting something that will result in instant incapacitation. 6mm is smaler than 9mm. Bigger ammo does more damage per wound channel but instant drop requires that damage be done to very specific locations. Handgun ammo, unlike much higher velocity smaller caliber 5.62 mm (.223 caliber) rifle ammo, does not deliver sufficent hydrostatic shock to matter, so a stop/drop hit must impact spine, brain, heart, or other organ that will result in instant shock, or pelvis that can result in incapacitating pain but that's iffy with drug-crazed assailants who feel no pain. Size (caliber) apparently doesn't matter in many cases. http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/...eb.htm#page_15 --snip-- In the authors’ ongoing study of violence against law enforcement officers, they have examined several cases where officers used large-caliber hand guns with limited effect displayed by the offenders. In one case, the subject attacked the officer with a knife. The officer shot the individual four times in the chest; then, his weapon malfunctioned. The offender continued to walk toward the officer. After the officer cleared his weapon, he fired again and struck the subject in the chest. Only then did the offender drop the knife. This individual was hit five times with 230-grain, .45-caliber hollow-point ammunition and never fell to the ground. The offender later stated, “The wounds felt like bee stings.” In another case, officers fired six .40-caliber, hollow-point rounds at a subject who pointed a gun at them. Each of the six rounds hit the individual with no visible effect. The seventh round severed his spinal cord, and the offender fell to the ground, dropping his weapon. This entire firefight was captured by several officers’ in-car video cameras. In a final case, the subject shot the victim officer in the chest with a handgun and fled. The officer, wearing a bullet-resistant vest, returned gunfire. The officer’s partner observed the incident and also fired at the offender. Subsequent investigation determined that the individual was hit 13 times and, yet, ran several blocks to a gang member’s house. He later said, “I was so scared by all those shots; it sounded like the Fourth of July.” Again, according to the subject, his wounds “only started to hurt when I woke up in the hospital.” The officers had used 9-millimeter, department-issued ammunition. The surviving officers re ported that they felt vulnerable. --snip-- Hitting such key small locations, short of head shots, is well beyond the marksmanship capability of most shooters, perhaps all shooters in a stress sit. I can repeatedly hit the face of an assailant at 7 yards but there's no way I'd bet I could hit his spine when we're both moving, in dark or low light, stoked with adrenaline. Face is good. I would think that even if you didn't kill them, perps with their faces blown off would tend to be a bit more docile, if not unconscious from the blow to the skull. Ability to accurately place several shots very rapidly is much more likely to drop an assailant than having a bigger gun. I did say accurately, but I'm not talking bullseye here but several rounds to COM and a couple to head at short range. Self defense is a dynamic, adrenaline-charged scared-****less short-range activity, not a military activity done by young men in a high state of training. I assert that the best tactic is to use a weapon/caliber that the individual, young or old, male or female, big or small, strong or weak, liberal or conservative, can best deliver most fire with workable accuracy Liberal with a gun? Shirley, ewe jest! That's as rare as a Republican with an Obama bumper sticker on their car. (Hi, Ed!) in a very few seconds of time. That's why nobody disputes the effectiveness of a shotgun or a full auto rifle. Exactly. That's why I assert that the .380 one might carry is far more defense than a .45 one leaves at home. That's, um, a given. -- Everything I did in my life that was worthwhile I caught hell for. -- Earl Warren |
#120
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Anniversary of an amazingly enduring design
Ed Huntress wrote:
I have multiple springs for my .45; an Ace .22 conversion; a CO2 pellet conversion for shooting in the basement; and a .38 Super barrel from my short stint at shooting plates. A Co2 conversion? Never heard of such a thing, love to have one. Details? |
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