On Nov 2, 2:30*pm, JIMMIE wrote:
On Nov 2, 10:51*am, JIMMIE wrote:





On Nov 2, 8:30*am, wrote:

On Nov 1, 1:24*pm, JIMMIE wrote:

On Nov 1, 8:41*am, wrote:

One more time:

* * * * * *------------------- *240Volts--------------
* * * * * *I * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *I
* * * * * *I * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *I
* * * * * *I * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *I
* * * * * *I---------.6ohms--------.6ohms--------
* * * * * * * * * * * load 1 * * * * * load 2

Simple, basic questions:

How much current is flowing in this circuit: *200 amps

What is the current flowing in load 1: * 200 amps

What is the current flowing in load 2: *200 amps

What is the voltage across load 1: *120volts

What is the voltage across load 2: 120volts

What is the power in EACH of these loads? * 120voltsX200 amps= 24KVA

How many amps of 120volt load is being supported? * 400

How many amps worth of 120 volt heaters could I buy and hook up in
this way? *400

What is the total power? * *120voltsX400 amps=48KVA, or 240voltsX200
amps =48KVA.

Notice how the math ALL adds up. * There is no missing power and the
homeowner gets to hook up 400 amps worth of 120 volt eqpt. hust like
in the real world. * * Following your answer the poor guy only hooks
up 200 amps worth of 120volt eqpt. * Where did the other half of his
power and load disappear to?

You keep interchanging the meaning of current and power.

Now that is simply untrue. * Nowhere above have I ever interchanged
current and power. * *But they do need to obey the laws of physics,
which in ALL of the above they do. *All of the current and all of the
power are accounted for and there is 400 amps of current flowing
across 120volt loads that accounts for the full 48KVA of power in the
service. * Capishe?

They are not the same.

No **** Sherlock.

At no time will there be more than 200 amps of
current flowing in the box without tripping a breaker. It doesn't
matter how you divide up the loads there will never be more than 200
amps flowing in the box without tripping a breaker.

No **** Sherlock.

Your terminology
saying 400 amps of LOAD is just wrong. But guess what I work with
engineers that say it all the time. I know its wrong, they know its
wrong but we all know what each other means.

Hmmm, *let's see. * Your first post you said:

"Assume *you are using one leg at 200 amps, that is all the breaker
will handle that is 120 volts *X 200 amps or 24,000 watts. If you
again max out the breaker with 200 amps flowing on both sides that is
240 volts x 200 amps or 48000 watts. Thats the same as 120 X 400
amps.
I think the OP wanted to know if he could get a total of *400 amps at
120VAC. Lets rephrase that to could he power 400 1 amp 120 VAC loads
from this box under residential conditions. The answer is yes "

Then you apparently changed your mind. *When called out on it, you
then said " I don't know why I said that, but I was wrong." * Now,
apparently you knew all along why you said it, it was no mystery.

The OP made the same mistake and that is why I said he was asking the
wrong question or was it the *question wrongly.

It wasn't a wrong question. * It was a very reasonable question that
any homeowner could ask an electrician or electrical engineer. *"How
many amps of 120volt load is the max that I could hook up to a 200
amp, 240volt service." * *You've got at least two electrical engineers
here and we both say that the answer to the question of how many amps
of 120volt load a 200 amp 240v service can supply is 400. * *You also
have about 5 other people who have weighed in and they say 400. * The
only lonely voice coninuing to say 200 here is you.

*I tried to clarify what he meant and when I got through it sounded
like I was saying there were 400 amps of current flowing, my bad.

And now comes the weaseling. * *It didn't "sound like it." * You did
say exaclty that, it's reposted again for you above.

I

was merely trying to indicate he could still power the load he wanted
and it didnt take 400 amps to do it.

If it doesn't take 400 amps to power a 48KVA load at 120volts, then
please explain how your math adds up. * You claim I'm "interchanging"
current and power. * In fact, I am not and my math adds up. * *What is
the voltage across the load? * *120volts * *What is the current
flowing through the 120 volt loads? * 400 amps. * What is the power?
48KVA. * See how it all works out?

Now let's do it your way. * *120volts X 200 amps=24KVA. *Where is the
other half of the missing power? * I've asked that previously and
gotten no answer other than the lame *"you're confusing power with
current." * I've supplied the straightforward math for the simple
circuit I drew above, where is yours?

Here's the other simple question I'm waiting for an answer to. * I
tell the homeowner he can power a max of 400 amps of 120 volt eqpt.
He goes out and buys four 12KW heaters. * The box on each one says
120volts, 100 amps, 12KW. *That is how these loads are labeled, are
they not? * * He plugs two in on one side of the hot, two in on the
other side of the hot. * He now has 400 amps of 120 volt loads
powered.

Following your answer, he instead comes home with only two 12KW
heaters and only gets to use half the available service power. *Why is
he only getting half his load if he listens to you? *Doesn't that
bother you?

In simple terms, for some strange reason, you want to ignore a current
passing through a second load and generating power. * *You don't count
current twice in a circuit in a way that would violate Kirchoff's
Law. * But you do count it twice if it flows through two seperate
loads, powering each of them. * *That is the only way physics explains
the power.

Jimmie

Im sorry you dont get it. I suggest you get some good books on
electrical engineering and try to learn more than the mechanics.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Since you want to drag education into it, I've stated my
credentials. * I have a BS in Electrical Engineering from the
Massachusettes Institute of Technology. *I spent 16 years in various
capacities, many of them engineering, with Intel. * Bud, who also says
you are nuts, has an Electrical Engineering degree from the Univ of
Minnesota Institute of Technology. * And precisely what are your
qualifications?

Geez no freaking way you graduated from MIT. Im done with you.

Jimmie

Sorry for that comment, I had to go take some insulin.

I ran this buy the engineering staff at work and they agreed with me.
Then I realized a few minutes ago that we ARE talking about a
residential environment, I deal with industrial installations, mostly
testing and installations of UPS's and generators. The point I was
trying to make to the OP is that there will never be 400 amps in the
box. There will never be 400 amps flowing anywhere.

It appeared to me and the engineering staff that claims were being
made that there would be 400 amps of current flowing at 120VAC. This
is what I disagreed with.

Part of the reason for my argument is that while this MAY be a
question a typical home owner could ask I did not view it as such as
such, it is also a classical "gotcha question". Usually the question
is just tossed out in a classroom for discussion to get people
thinking but a few instructors will put it on a test. The guys at work
saw it the same way.

*I agree that asking if the box will will support 400 1 amp 120 vac
loads is a question a home owner may ask and the answer is YES in
theory and I have said so. If this was a real homeowner type question
the answer would be NO. He would be risking overloading the box.

The only point is that I am making is that there will never be 400
amps of current flowing in the box.The LINE Input will not "see" the
load as 400 1 amp 120 VAC loads it will only "see" it as a 200 amp 240
vac load. If you add up all the currents through each individual
current paths there will never be more than 200amps. *The way I see it
2 120 vac 1 amp loads in series is is going to be one path. There is
no node or legitimate sum of nodes where 400 amps is flowing in the
box.

* A home owner may *see it as 400 1 amp 120vac loads but that is not
the reality of what is happening in the panel.
I think our disagreement is merely a matter of perception of the
problem and a matter of perception of each others answers. We both
know what we are talking about.

As far as my education, I eventually got my Electronic Engineering
degree at University of Miami after attending 3 different universities
spread out over 8 years while in the USAF. When I got out of the AF in
the early 80s I discovered there wasnt much call for an electronic
engineer.The jobs that were open had a very short life expectancy,
most engineers were being hired for special projects with little hope
of being retained after the project was finished. I then went back to
Georgia Tech for a little over a year *for my electrical degree. Never
finished it up, A very good long term *job came along and I made the
choice to take it.
.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Excellent, good to see we finally have closure.