On May 3, 10:30*pm, westom wrote:
On May 3, 7:16 pm, wrote:
OMG! * You are soooo confused dude. * YOU are the one that claimed
that all appliances and electronics already had surge protection which
negated the need for plug-ins.
*Are you so technically ignorant as to use silly emotion for your
reasoning? *Constantly posted was this: all appliances contain surge
protection. *That means surge protection without MOVs.
Yet another outstanding non-sequitor. Your logic process is most
amazing.
*With basic
design knowledge, you know how that is routinely done.
I know it's commonly done with MOVs. You tell us how to do it as
well and cost effectively in appliances and electronics without using
them.
* You claim all appliances contain MOVs. *Fine. *
I never stated that all appliances contain MOVs. Only that they are
commonly found in many modern ones, which would be ones that have
electronic controls. Obviously there are appliances in existence
that have no surge protection at all, like a toaster or an old washer,
for example.
Then no plug-in
protectors are required to only do the same thing. * Why waste so much
money on $25 or $150 surge protectors when the same ten cent parts are
already inside appliances? * trader still will not answer that.
I have answered it many times, as has the IEEE, NIST, etc. Bud has
provided you with the references. BTW, where are your references that
simply state what you say, which is that plug-ins are totally
ineffective and actually cause damage?
But let me answer it for you one more time. I would rather have a
surge be dealt with in whole or in part, by the MOVs inside a $25 plug-
in surge protector than the MOVs inside the $2000 TV. These
components don't have an unlimited capacity, nor do they last
forever. It's not unusual for an MOV to be destroyed at some point
by a surge. Plus, I can choose the capacity of the surge protector
in the plug-in, and typically it's capacity is going to be greater
than what is inside an appliance. Also, by connecting say a TV,
VCR, DVR, and Stereo all to the same plug-in surge protector, all
their inputs subject to surges, ie AC, Cable, phone are now clamped to
the same level.
* Back to reality. *All appliances contain protection (with or without
MOVs). *Protection that makes most every surge irrelevant. *Protection
that is overwhelmed by a rare and destructive surge.
* How does every telco everywhere in the world operate during every
thunderstorm and never suffer computer damage? * Same solution is
routinely used in homes that contain transistors. *
Once again you want to take a trip down memory lane, but leave out the
important parts. You made this telco claim before. And I pointed
out that telcos also rely on a tiered surge protection approach. Not
only do they have surge protection at the entry point, they also have
surge protection on the actual line cards in the central office
switch, where the phone line terminates. Protection that according
to you is useless because there is no direct short connection to earth
ground. The components on that line card work the same way, and
under the same limitations as those in a plug-in surge protector.
Earth that rare and
destructive surge before it can enter the building. *One properly
earthed 'whole house' protector with a short connection to single
point earth ground. *A concept that has been successful for over 100
years. *Then protection inside every appliance (with or without MOVs)
is not overwhelmed.
* Only repeating what trader has read repeatedly. How many other
professionals have been quoted saying the same thing?
Bud and I as well as anyone else I can recall here have repeated what
the IEEE and NIST say, which is that plug-in protectors do work and
should be used as part of a surge protection plan. What we have yet
to see, is any professional simply stating what you say, which is that
plug-in are totally ineffective and actually cause damage. Where is
that missing link?
*And still
trader knows it must not be true? * Facts he forgets to post more
attacks - and still not answer questions involving two wire circuits.
* Why did so many appliance manufacturers stop installing MOVs? *The
rare and typically destructive surge overwhelmed internal appliance
protection with or without MOVs installed.
I just provided you with a link to a recent Appliance Design Magazine,
where they have a whole article that talks about MOVs being used in
appliances. Now, who are we to believe? My own eyes and credible
references, or you? BTW, where's your reference for the claim that
so many appliance manufacturers stopped using MOVs?
For those just joining us, here is the link again:
http://www.appliancedesign.com/CDA/A.../BNP_GUID_9-5-...
"Metal Oxide Varistors (MOVs) are typically used for transient over-
voltage suppression in AC line voltage applications. Lightning,
inductive load switching, or capacitor bank switching may cause
transient over-voltage conditions. In these applications, there also
exists the potential for a sustained abnormal over-voltage/limited-
current condition that may cause the MOV to go into thermal runaway,
resulting in overheating, out-gassing and possibly fire.
New thermally enhanced MOVs help protect a wide variety of low-power
systems against damage caused by over-current, over-temperature and
over-voltage faults, including lightning strikes, electrostatic
discharge (ESD) surges, loss of neutral, incorrect input voltage and
power induction.
These devices help provide protection in a wide range of AC line
applications, including AC mains LED lighting systems, PLC network
adapters, cell-phone chargers, AC/DC power supplies (up to 30 VA as
input power for 230 VAC input voltage), modem power supplies, AC
panel
protection modules, AC power meters, and home appliances. "
* 'Whole house' protectors are not completely effective. *The naive
and trader will read no farther. *Reposting what trader had read
befo from an IEEE Standard:
I don't know what your point is here. But I never posted any such
thing, though it is obviously a true statement that whole house surge
protectors are not completely effective. But they can be an
important part of an overall protection plan, just as plug-ins can be
part of that same plan..
Even this means is not positive, providing only 99.5-99.9% protection. ....
Still, a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct
strokes from one stroke per 30 years ... to one stroke per
6000 years ...
I'm beginning to think maybe you've had a stroke.
* *We spend $50 for a 'whole house' protector from Lowes to have 99.5%
protection (assuming earthing exists and is properly connected).
trader says we should spend $5000 for plug-in protectors for each
appliance to have an additional 'less than' $0.5% protection.
Another bizarre and false assertion. I never said any such thing.
You can buy a decent plug-in surge protector for $25.
* Fine. *trader knows plug-in protectors are required because he wants
99.7% protection. * Let him enrich bud.
And here we go again, claiming Bud sells plug-in surge protectors.
Your basis for this would be?
* Meanwhile trader's posts remain irrelevant to what others ask. *They
have two wire circuits. *trader recommends safety violations - use
three wire power strips on two wire circuits.
And yet another outrageous lie. The OP asked how to add ground wires
to 2 wire circuits on a slab. I never told the OP ANYTHING about
using power strips.
*How does the OP get any
protection from surge protectors when receptacles are only two wires?
Facts that trader ignored to post irrelevance.
* They asked for a solution to two wire circuits? *Where does trader
post even one solution? *He has no solutions.
Once again, despite your attempts to turn the OPs question into your
own area of specialty delusion, the OP never asked about surge
protection. For all we know, he has 3 outlets that are 2 wire that
are used to occasionally plug a vacuum or a hand held tool into. Last
time I checked there are very valid reasons for having grounded
outlets that have nothing at all to do with surge protection.
* Anyone with two wire receptacles can have 99.5% protection by
ignoring the naysayers. *Install one 'whole house' protector and
upgrade earthing ('less than 10 feet, no sharp bends, etc). *That
means everything (including the furnace and dishwasher) is protected.
Where is that trader post that describes any protection on two wire
circuits? *Nothing. *A protector is only as effective as its earth
ground which is why others also recommended upgrading building earth
ground.
Where is Tom's post that answers the OP's actual question, which is
how to add a ground wire to 2 wire circuits on a slab?