I used to own a house that was built on a stemwall foundation. I
grounded the electric outlets by drilling a hole up through the bottom
plate under each outlet box, pushing ground wires up through the hole,
and fishing them into the box.

I'm now buying a house that is built on a slab, and many of the
outlets are ungrounded. How should I deal with the problem in this
case?

On Apr 27, 10:21*pm, Jonathan Sachs wrote:
I used to own a house that was built on a stemwall foundation. I
grounded the electric outlets by drilling a hole up through the bottom
plate under each outlet box, pushing ground wires up through the hole,
and fishing them into the box.

I'm now buying a house that is built on a slab, and many of the
outlets are ungrounded. How should I deal with the problem in this
case?

Do it from above.

R

RicodJour wrote:
On Apr 27, 10:21 pm, Jonathan Sachs wrote:
I used to own a house that was built on a stemwall foundation. I
grounded the electric outlets by drilling a hole up through the bottom
plate under each outlet box, pushing ground wires up through the hole,
and fishing them into the box.

I'm now buying a house that is built on a slab, and many of the
outlets are ungrounded. How should I deal with the problem in this
case?

Do it from above.

R
Peek in the boxes with a flashlight. If the place was built mid-1960s or
later, odds are there will be a ground wire rolled up under the romex
clamps. This 1960 house had ground cables in place- I just had to
connect them when I switched out the 2-holers for 3-holers. Were the
grounded outlets wired at the same time as the ungrounded ones? If so,
probably same type of wire. And you did plug one of those quick-testers
into the grounded outlets to make sure they really were grounded, right?
(well worth the ten bucks to have one of those in the toolbox, IMHO.)

--
aem sends...

On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 02:45:29 GMT, aemeijers wrote:

Peek in the boxes with a flashlight. If the place was built mid-1960s or
later, odds are there will be a ground wire rolled up under the romex
clamps.

The house was built in 1960. I'm hoping the boxes are grounded, but if
they are not, I'd like to have a Plan B.

And you did plug one of those quick-testers
into the grounded outlets to make sure they really were grounded, right?

I haven't done that yet because I don't own the house yet, but the
home inspector did it, and he reported that several three-hole outlets
in the original living space are _not_ grounded.

A couple of people suggested going down from the attic. I haven't
examined the attic yet (see above), but I've done that before, and I
can testify that several things can make it impossible, or nearly so:
an outside wall under the eaves; any outside wall that has been
insulated; any wall with bracing. I'm hoping there's a better way.

Jonathan Sachs wrote:
On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 02:45:29 GMT, aemeijers wrote:

Peek in the boxes with a flashlight. If the place was built mid-1960s or
later, odds are there will be a ground wire rolled up under the romex
clamps.

The house was built in 1960. I'm hoping the boxes are grounded, but if
they are not, I'd like to have a Plan B.

And you did plug one of those quick-testers
into the grounded outlets to make sure they really were grounded, right?

I haven't done that yet because I don't own the house yet, but the
home inspector did it, and he reported that several three-hole outlets
in the original living space are _not_ grounded.

A couple of people suggested going down from the attic. I haven't
examined the attic yet (see above), but I've done that before, and I
can testify that several things can make it impossible, or nearly so:
an outside wall under the eaves; any outside wall that has been
insulated; any wall with bracing. I'm hoping there's a better way.
I'm no code expert, but I recall from previous grounded-outlet threads
on here that some folks said running a ground wire via a different route
than the feed wire, was not code-compliant. As to some of your 3-holers
showing up as non-grounded- I also had some like that, that were merely
wired backward. Swapped the black and white wires, and the tester was
happy. If the boxes are not grounded, and there is no painless way to
run new wire to the outside walls, you may have to pick and choose which
outlets Really Need to be grounded. My other house down in Louisiana is
on a slab, and we had to add a couple strings to feed select spots, like
for the computers, microwave, and such, on interior walls.

--
aem sends...

aemeijers wrote:
Jonathan Sachs wrote:
On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 02:45:29 GMT, aemeijers wrote:

Peek in the boxes with a flashlight. If the place was built mid-1960s
or later, odds are there will be a ground wire rolled up under the
romex clamps.

The house was built in 1960. I'm hoping the boxes are grounded, but if
they are not, I'd like to have a Plan B.

And you did plug one of those quick-testers into the grounded outlets
to make sure they really were grounded, right?

I haven't done that yet because I don't own the house yet, but the
home inspector did it, and he reported that several three-hole outlets
in the original living space are _not_ grounded.

The common 3 light testers will reliably show there is a problem (but
could give the wrong problem). If the tester indicates there is a good
ground there probably is, but not necessarily.

If a "grounded" outlet is not grounded it can be replaced by a 2 prong
non-grounding outlet. Most equipment these days does not have a ground pin.

A couple of people suggested going down from the attic. I haven't
examined the attic yet (see above), but I've done that before, and I
can testify that several things can make it impossible, or nearly so:
an outside wall under the eaves; any outside wall that has been
insulated; any wall with bracing. I'm hoping there's a better way.

At least one other post suggested using a GFCI outlet. It is NEC
compliant and gives you a grounded type outlet. But no ground, which may
or may not be a problem. The outlet should be labeled with a "No
equipment ground" label that comes with the outlet. If the circuit
continues past the GFCI outlet, the circuit can be connected to the load
terminals of the GFCI, and outlets downstream will be protected. Outlets
downstream of GFCI protection can be grounding type but must be labeled
"No equipment ground" and "GFCI protected". The ground contacts of these
outlets should not be interconnected by ground wires that are not
actually grounded.

I'm no code expert, but I recall from previous grounded-outlet threads
on here that some folks said running a ground wire via a different route
than the feed wire, was not code-compliant.

Generally all wires have to run together but there is an exception for
an ungrounded outlet - the ground wire can be run by itself. The added
ground wire can go to anywhere on the "grounding electrode system". That
includes the source panel ground bar, the heavy wires connecting to the
grounding electrodes (often the easiest) or the first 5 feet of water
pipe inside the building.

--
bud--

Jonathan Sachs wrote:
I used to own a house that was built on a stemwall foundation. I
grounded the electric outlets by drilling a hole up through the bottom
plate under each outlet box, pushing ground wires up through the hole,
and fishing them into the box.

I'm now buying a house that is built on a slab, and many of the
outlets are ungrounded. How should I deal with the problem in this
case?

Got an attic? same process, mirror imaged... (and then you'll find all
the firestops in the walls...) yes it is somewhat more difficult this
way, a right angle drill can help.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

In article ,
Jonathan Sachs wrote:

I used to own a house that was built on a stemwall foundation. I
grounded the electric outlets by drilling a hole up through the bottom
plate under each outlet box, pushing ground wires up through the hole,
and fishing them into the box.

I'm now buying a house that is built on a slab, and many of the
outlets are ungrounded. How should I deal with the problem in this
case?

Eh? What problem?

Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
Jonathan Sachs wrote:

I used to own a house that was built on a stemwall foundation. I
grounded the electric outlets by drilling a hole up through the bottom
plate under each outlet box, pushing ground wires up through the hole,
and fishing them into the box.

I'm now buying a house that is built on a slab, and many of the
outlets are ungrounded. How should I deal with the problem in this
case?

Eh? What problem?

Trying to ground wall outlets in a hiuse with a slab foundation rather
than joists bearing on a concrete stemwall. The latter allows running a
ground wire up to the wall outlet from the basement or crawl space.
Can't do that with a slab foundation.

--
When asked, years afterward, why his charge at Gettysburg failed,
General Pickett said: "I've always thought the Yankees had something to
do with it."

In article ,
Major Debacle wrote:

Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
Jonathan Sachs wrote:

I used to own a house that was built on a stemwall foundation. I
grounded the electric outlets by drilling a hole up through the bottom
plate under each outlet box, pushing ground wires up through the hole,
and fishing them into the box.

I'm now buying a house that is built on a slab, and many of the
outlets are ungrounded. How should I deal with the problem in this
case?

Eh? What problem?

Trying to ground wall outlets in a hiuse with a slab foundation rather
than joists bearing on a concrete stemwall. The latter allows running a
ground wire up to the wall outlet from the basement or crawl space.
Can't do that with a slab foundation.

Clarification: Why does the OP choose to see ungrounded outlets as a
*problem?*

"Jonathan Sachs" wrote in message
...
I used to own a house that was built on a stemwall foundation. I
grounded the electric outlets by drilling a hole up through the bottom
plate under each outlet box, pushing ground wires up through the hole,
and fishing them into the box.

I'm now buying a house that is built on a slab, and many of the
outlets are ungrounded. How should I deal with the problem in this
case?


*What year was the house built and what type of wiring is installed?

On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 19:21:30 -0700, Jonathan Sachs
wrote:

I used to own a house that was built on a stemwall foundation. I
grounded the electric outlets by drilling a hole up through the bottom
plate under each outlet box, pushing ground wires up through the hole,
and fishing them into the box.

I'm now buying a house that is built on a slab, and many of the
outlets are ungrounded. How should I deal with the problem in this
case?

How many appliances require a grounded ( 3 pin ) outlet ?
In my house, that woiuld be the washing machine, and the fridge.
As far as I know, all other plug-ins use a ( 2-pin ) polarized plug.

So, unless your community requires 3-hole sockets, why bother ?
Just be sure that the wide slot is "neutral".

On Apr 28, 6:22�pm, "RJ" wrote:
On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 19:21:30 -0700, Jonathan Sachs

wrote:
I used to own a house that was built on a stemwall foundation. I
grounded the electric outlets by drilling a hole up through the bottom
plate under each outlet box, pushing ground wires up through the hole,
and fishing them into the box.

I'm now buying a house that is built on a slab, and many of the
outlets are ungrounded. How should I deal with the problem in this
case?

How many appliances require a grounded ( 3 pin ) outlet ?
In my house, that woiuld be the washing machine, and the fridge.
As far as I know, all other plug-ins use a ( 2-pin ) polarized plug.

So, unless your community requires 3-hole sockets, why bother ?
Just be sure that the wide slot is "neutral".

when you decide to sell lack of grounds can move your home into the
fixer upper low price category.............

RJ wrote:
On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 19:21:30 -0700, Jonathan Sachs
wrote:

I used to own a house that was built on a stemwall foundation. I
grounded the electric outlets by drilling a hole up through the bottom
plate under each outlet box, pushing ground wires up through the hole,
and fishing them into the box.

I'm now buying a house that is built on a slab, and many of the
outlets are ungrounded. How should I deal with the problem in this
case?

How many appliances require a grounded ( 3 pin ) outlet ?
In my house, that woiuld be the washing machine, and the fridge.
As far as I know, all other plug-ins use a ( 2-pin ) polarized plug.

So, unless your community requires 3-hole sockets, why bother ?
Just be sure that the wide slot is "neutral".


In my case, we have awful power, so I have two UPSes and tons of surge
suppressors. If the worst should happen, the "protected equipment
warranty" is void unless the UPS or surge suppressor is connected to a
grounded outlet.

This may sound like a far-fetched scenario for many people, but a whole
mess of people in my neighborhood lost a lot of electronics a year or so
ago when there was an "incident." Even with my "massive overkill"
approach to surge protection, I lost a circuit board in my air filter
(at that time not protected; now it is) a circuit board in my dishwasher
(only protected by the main panel surge suppressor because it's
hardwired) and a really old surge strip. Dominion Power denied any
responsibility; I repaired all the equipment myself so the cash outlay
was below what our homeowner's deductable would have been. (lost
receipt for the main surge suppressor breaker)

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
RJ wrote:
On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 19:21:30 -0700, Jonathan Sachs
wrote:

I used to own a house that was built on a stemwall foundation. I
grounded the electric outlets by drilling a hole up through the bottom
plate under each outlet box, pushing ground wires up through the hole,
and fishing them into the box.

I'm now buying a house that is built on a slab, and many of the
outlets are ungrounded. How should I deal with the problem in this
case?

How many appliances require a grounded ( 3 pin ) outlet ?
In my house, that woiuld be the washing machine, and the fridge.
As far as I know, all other plug-ins use a ( 2-pin ) polarized plug.

So, unless your community requires 3-hole sockets, why bother ?
Just be sure that the wide slot is "neutral".


In my case, we have awful power, so I have two UPSes and tons of surge
suppressors. If the worst should happen, the "protected equipment
warranty" is void unless the UPS or surge suppressor is connected to a
grounded outlet.

This may sound like a far-fetched scenario for many people, but a whole
mess of people in my neighborhood lost a lot of electronics a year or so
ago when there was an "incident." Even with my "massive overkill"
approach to surge protection, I lost a circuit board in my air filter (at
that time not protected; now it is) a circuit board in my dishwasher (only
protected by the main panel surge suppressor because it's hardwired) and a
really old surge strip. Dominion Power denied any responsibility; I
repaired all the equipment myself so the cash outlay was below what our
homeowner's deductable would have been. (lost receipt for the main surge
suppressor breaker)


*Nate, make sure that you have a good grounding system for your home. A
water pipe ground and ground rods should help with your problem

On Apr 29, 8:04*am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message

...





RJ wrote:
On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 19:21:30 -0700, Jonathan Sachs
wrote:

I used to own a house that was built on a stemwall foundation. I
grounded the electric outlets by drilling a hole up through the bottom
plate under each outlet box, pushing ground wires up through the hole,
and fishing them into the box.

I'm now buying a house that is built on a slab, and many of the
outlets are ungrounded. How should I deal with the problem in this
case?

How many appliances require a grounded ( 3 pin ) outlet ?
In my house, that woiuld be the washing machine, and the fridge.
As far as I know, all other plug-ins use a ( 2-pin ) polarized plug.

So, unless your community requires 3-hole sockets, why bother ?
Just be sure that the wide slot is "neutral".

In my case, we have awful power, so I have two UPSes and tons of surge
suppressors. *If the worst should happen, the "protected equipment
warranty" is void unless the UPS or surge suppressor is connected to a
grounded outlet.

This may sound like a far-fetched scenario for many people, but a whole
mess of people in my neighborhood lost a lot of electronics a year or so
ago when there was an "incident." *Even with my "massive overkill"
approach to surge protection, I lost a circuit board in my air filter (at
that time not protected; now it is) a circuit board in my dishwasher (only
protected by the main panel surge suppressor because it's hardwired) and a
really old surge strip. *Dominion Power denied any responsibility; I
repaired all the equipment myself so the cash outlay was below what our
homeowner's deductable would have been. *(lost receipt for the main surge
suppressor breaker)

*Nate, make sure that you have a good grounding system for your home. A
water pipe ground and ground rods should help with your problem- Hide quoted text -

It appears to be OK although I have not investigated thoroughly (how
would one test something concealed like ground rods anyway?) but
everything inside the house looks copacetic. What apparently happened
was that a tree fell on a high voltage power line which fell on top of
a lower voltage power line thus momentarily producing a voltage 10x or
more normal. With what should have been an odd failure, I feel lucky
to get away as easy as I did.

But that prompts a question - short of going outside and digging along
the ground cable and inspecting the number of buried ground rods, how
would one determine if an older house does in fact have proper
grounding? (I know, lift the neutral to the pole and see if anything
blows up...)

Actually you just reminded me that we just replaced our fridge which
WAS an old, purely mechanical device with a fancy new one with an
electronic control/display.... probably should slap a point of use
surge protector on that as well.

nate

On Apr 29, 8:31*am, N8N wrote:
But that prompts a question - short of going outside and digging along
the ground cable and inspecting the number of buried ground rods, how
would one determine if an older house does in fact have proper
grounding? *(I know, lift the neutral to the pole and see if anything
blows up...)

Ground must be installed so that it can be inspected. Visual
inspection is the only method to confirm an earth ground exists and is
sufficient. Furthermore, every incoming utility must make a short
connection to that same earthing electrode. IOW a gray NID telephone
box contains a 'whole house' protector that must be earthed. Cable TV
is earthed directly - no protector required. These ground wires
should be traced to the same ground rod that is also just outside the
breaker box.

Grounding serves two functions. First is human safety. Code states
what is required. Second function is surge protection. That means
grounding must exceed those requirements. Connection from each
utility wire (ie breaker box, telephone NID, cable ground block) must
be short (ie 'less than ten feet'). Separated from other wires.
Only meets all other ground wires at the same earth electrode. No
sharp bends. Not inside metallic conduit. Violation of any of these
means a ground for surge protection has been compromised.

Remember what a surge proetctor does. Diverts energy to be
harmlessly dissipated into earth. If ground via the safety ground
wire inside romex, well, that wire also violates most every above
requirement which is why 'point of use' protectors have no earthing.
Which is why 'point of use' protectors do not even claim to protect
from the type of surges that are typically destructive.

Sounds like your best solution is to install new grounds so that all
incoming utilities make that short connection to earth. Since a surge
protector is defined by quality of its earthing, then additional
earthing would make an effective protector even better.

Earthing must meet and exceed post 1990 code requirements to
accomplish what you are asking. Type of surge that typically destroys
appliances is either earthed (dissipated harmlessly in earth) before
entering a building. Or finds destructive paths through household
appliances inside the house. A protector connected to earth via
household wires (ie romex) is all but no earth ground. It may then
earth that surge destructively through an appliance as we have seen so
often. A surge diverted into and dissipated in earth need not enter a
building - does not overwhelm protection that already exists inside
every appliance.

On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 19:21:30 -0700, Jonathan Sachs
wrote:

I used to own a house that was built on a stemwall foundation. I
grounded the electric outlets by drilling a hole up through the bottom
plate under each outlet box, pushing ground wires up through the hole,
and fishing them into the box.

I'm now buying a house that is built on a slab, and many of the
outlets are ungrounded. How should I deal with the problem in this
case?

Your main has a ground. There are other ways, but you need to know
local codes.

On Apr 28, 3:02*am, wrote:
On Mon, 27 Apr 2009 19:21:30 -0700, Jonathan Sachs

wrote:
I used to own a house that was built on a stemwall foundation. I
grounded the electric outlets by drilling a hole up through the bottom
plate under each outlet box, pushing ground wires up through the hole,
and fishing them into the box.

I'm now buying a house that is built on a slab, and many of the
outlets are ungrounded. How should I deal with the problem in this
case?

Get an pneumatic air hammer and break out about one foot of concrete
under each outlet until you hit the ground (soil) under the concrete.
Remove the outlet from the wall, and bury the entire outlet and box in
the ground under the floor. *This will insure the outlet is well
grounded. *Then pour fresh concrete over each outlet hole and smooth
it to match the original floor. *


For the locations where running a ground wire would be difficult or
impossible, put in GFCI outlets and forget about grounding them.