In article ,
George M. Kazaka wrote:


Thanks for the expert legal advice, I do respect your expertise and bow to
your Knowledge of the law.
However unless they changed and as I am not a lawyer, I cannot quote the
actual law,
but Check with the IRS on the Overtime issue Unless they changed it they can
force an employer to pay Time and Half to a salaried employee or at least
compensate the employee after a certain amount of time.
And it did not matter what the agreement is.

You, sir, "know not that of which you speak".

The law *specifically* states that "*EXEMPT* salaried persons" are _not_
any additional compensation -- either 'straight pay' or 'time and a half'
for 'extra work'. They are paid 'by the year', and _those_ *are* their
working hours.

'Non-exempt' persons, whether their wages are quoted on an hourly basis,
_or_otherwise_, are a different story.

*EVERYTHING* depends on the actual job being performed.

That said, I *can't* see ANY way the original poster could possibly be
considered an 'exempt' position, *regardless* of whether he's "being
paid" on a hourly basis, or 'salaried'.

I agree that there is no law in requiring Mandatory OT and I know you
lawyers work only in black and white,
but by what Kevin wrote and the actual terminology Mandatory isn't
it an implication that you "have" to work overtime.
What does the Employer do if he refuse's to work overtime.

You don't work the mandatory overtime, you *GET*FIRED*.
It *really* _is_ "mandatory" -- i.e. "required that you do it, if you
want to keep your job."

And you have -no- recourse with the State (or Federal) Dept of Labor people.
And you are *NOT* entitled to unemployment benefits, because you _were_
fired "for cause".

If I am wrong
Please correct me,

You *ARE* wrong.
No employer can force an employee to work overtime,

Yes, they *CAN*.
does
not the word Mandatory reflect that is what this individual is doing.

Yes it is, and it *IS* entirely legal.

I'm sure it is not illegal until he acts upon it, even though the
intimidation is there.

I know that State laws are all different and other than knowing where
Florida is I know nothing of that state,
but there are some state's that would take the implication alone of this
employer and come down rather harshly.

You're almost entirely wrong.


And even though I cannot quote the law as it is written I have had some
experience with it in several different areas of law.
I am not trying to get in a ****ing contest with you, as I said I bow to
your expertise,
But what I have learned from experience and also knowing quite few
attorney's is that lawyers know the law as it is written and nothing of the
real world where that law is supposed to either do good or regulate Society.

Employers break the law everyday, there are many ways to intimidate an
employee act on it and have nothing done to them even though they have
broken the law. It is rather simple to do.
I would be curious to know what happens with the employee's the Company that
Kevin is working for if they do not work the mandatory overtime, I hope that
Kevin will enlighten us.

He will get fired.


By the way Bob what side do you generally represent, The employer or the
employee ????
If it is the Employer then I understand why you wanted to straighten out my
remarks.

If you represent the employee then I ask how much of a retainer would Kevin
have to pay to get you to represent him should he loose his job for not
wanting to work 70 hours a week. ??

Probably -nothing-. There is *no* basis for any legal action.
If Kevin doesn't like something that is 'part of the conditions' of employment
at -that- employer, he is free to seek other employment. That *IS* the
way things work in the real world.


George


"Bob Stewart" wrote in message
...
FWIW, I am an attorney who works in this area of law and want to correct
a few of George's misstatements:
1. There is nothing illegal about requiring mandatory OT so long as the
employer compensates for it as required by law. If you don't want to
work it, you can refuse.
2. Under the federal Fair Labor Standards Act ("FLSA"), an employer is
not required to pay a lawfully salaried employee additional OT
compensation after the agreed upon base number of hours.
3. Most importantly, given the work you describe, there is no way you
could lawfully be classified as a salary-exempt employee under the FLSA.
The U.S. Department of Labor or its Florida equivalent can help you.

George M. Kazaka wrote:
Kevin,
I have one word for you
Quit,
Find another Job and find it fast,
I have been in and around woodworking & business for 48 years.
I have been where your boss i, and he is in a hole and all the walls are
covered with oil
he will never get out,

I can say a hundred things and tell you a hundred storie's about your
situation and what you are seing
The main thing as i read your post is that i was wondering if you were
in
another country, Maybe Florida has some weird labor laws, but this guy
is
breaking so many Federal labor laws it is pathetic.

I see nothing wrong with him trying to hold his company together with
lack
or failing equipment as long as they do not put someone in harms way,
Neccesity is the mother of invention.

Game playing is bad everywhere in life,
Hustling cash flow is an art, one that is not taught in schools other
than
the school of hard knocks.

Nothing wrong in outsourcing its the way most companies operate nowaday.
I make a lot of my own doors, i am a custon shop and generally add that
little something that you just won't find anywhere, give me acut and
dried
raised panel door and it is cheaper for me to buy them from a door
company
that does nothing but, an average red oak raised door cost me about
10.00
per sq.ft. and the good part is i have not given up any quality.

I from what you wrote I thought that your boss was just having a rough
time
in a hard economy, I say stop your bitching a show some loyality,
This is a rough business even when times are good. But as I said this
guy is
in a hole so deep there is now way he can get out, as they say the
writing
is on the wall.

Most vendors will still ship to you if you get behind, they will ship to
you
COD and 10% of your back bill, they do not like it but they really do
not
want to see you go under and loose what you completly.
No company can make overtime mandantory, IT is criminaly illegal.
Uncle Sam says that even salaried people have to have there salary based
on
a set amount of hours and after that you get paid extra.

The other reasons are the best reason for leaving there, You are not
happy
there for one, to me if you are not happy at your job then you are not
giving it your best, and your best is what your boss deserves under any
conditions.
The other is the hours, tell your boss 120 hours a week is nothing to
what i
used to do, I was a true down and out workaholic and trust me when I say
that is just as bad as a herion addict, or an alcoholic.

Best wishes and Good Luck
George





"Kevin Wade" wrote in message
...

I have been woodworking since 1986 in large and small firms. ( 2 - 85
employees) and have been offered an "upgrade" to a salaried position
in a form where I am unsure of how bad things will get.

points without order cause I am fuzzy headed after a 13 hour day
(normal) where the last hour was the "we are not making money the last
2 months and things are getting worse" speech along with the "I invite
you to join the salaried and become one of the '5' and we will get rid
of the 'helpers' as we do 800,000.00 of work before xmass.....

1. Owner of company seems to promote a mixed message....
a. will ask "How are you doing" without stopping as he walks
by without stopping, but looks you in the eye.
b. will not allow paychecks to be handed out until 5:31 on Payday
even though payroll is for the 2dn and 3rd week back.
c. workday is 7:00 am till 5:30 6 days with hour for lunch but
whimsical overtime is mandatory (whimsical being no notice).
2. All of the salary workers (3) are appearantly unsatasfied because
they are paid less that many of the 'workers' because they are not
paid for overtime and have few if any benifits and are in fear of
losing thier positions at anytime because the boss is fickle and
irresponsible in his dealings with customers and vendors.
3. Currently the business does not seem to know if it is a door
manufacturing facility or a cabinet factory.
4. Spray Booth is a Joke..... hole cut in wall with a Borg roll around
floor fan screwed into hole and 'spraybooth' seperated by other area
with a blue tarp screwed to rafters.... and 32 foot of flourscent
lighting per 1,000 foot of space.
5. $ 150,000 edge bander and $ 20,000 scmi sliding table saw with a $
12,000 Startech assembly drilling station and 1, 9.6 volt makita drill
that works (1 battery( may be another but no one knows where)) and
then a few other tools.... mostly 5 shaper heads, sander (singlebelt
(needs help)), a couple specialty items,,, face frame table and single
had pocket hole machine.... few tools are sort og new... shopfox 'tm
bandsaw (large toy) 20'ish planer and a williams and hussey moulder
(another toy).
Big point is a few mid-high end tools and a few hand tools with a
bunch of home version tools in the middle.
6. when I started there was;
a. Owner (2 years~)
b. Designer ( 2 years ~)
c. Cad man (1 year ~)
d. Foreman~ (1.5 years)
e. Shop manager ( 6 months)
f. Apprentice (3 months)
and a handful of 1 - 2 month guys most are gone now........ within a
week of my hire there were 16 total and now there are 15 but we will
lose 6 on monday.
7. 1 month ago I was told that if I cut 6k per day of cabinetry for 5
days in a week I would get a $ 100.00 bonus..... this has not happened
but then I have not made an issue to more than 2 of the 3 that made
that offer to me.
8. Days will now go by where we have to get something out that is
promised TODAY even though 'the shop' has not seen plans for such an
item and there is no material to cot that item out of often because (I
am told "we owe that supplier money") but we will send a driver on a 6
hour trip to get material from a new vendor 3 states away that will
arrive at 4:00 PM on a friday.... "gotta be here saturday cause this
is a RUSH".
9. Front shop is no smoking but paint room / Door shop is ok to smoke
as long as you put it out when you see the boss..... so there are
several people who find a need to "run to the back" so often we are
not sure if they are comming or going at all times.
10. I believe in equal pay for work of equal value but do not see that
in place.

There is no one - two or three year plan that I can see and only a
hastly formatted green and brown bar graph to say that 'we are losing
money'

I work the numbers and see that the $ 30,000 per week with 800,000 by
years end is just not possible no way no how...


I am trying to get over how upset that I am that I am asked to become
salary when as a hourly I only get a single day off and am expected to
work all but sinday, xmass and possibly easter off (thank gawds that
is on a sunday).

how can work in a cabinet shop be measured while still straying from a
hierarchical managment structure that is fair, pays well and promotes
success and a feeling of success?

Managment has decided to outsource door and drawer fronts and just
build box's...... there does not seem to be goals (does "make money"
count?)

Strategy is offer the moon .... deliver the cabinets at 75% for the
draw and then scrabble to make up the rest when already overloaded
with all the other dramas.

I am looking for guidance on how to negociate my best working deal
cause I want to spend time with family, boat, cats, computer and not
be a zonbie from just the average 70+ workweek....... even though the
boss tells stories about his old job where he averaged 120 hour
weeks,,,


Kevin Wade
lost in Florida