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Kevin Wade
 
Posts: n/a
Default Salary-VS-Hourly $ 15.00 hr (50 hrs+) Salary with bonus??? hard decision


I have been woodworking since 1986 in large and small firms. ( 2 - 85
employees) and have been offered an "upgrade" to a salaried position
in a form where I am unsure of how bad things will get.

points without order cause I am fuzzy headed after a 13 hour day
(normal) where the last hour was the "we are not making money the last
2 months and things are getting worse" speech along with the "I invite
you to join the salaried and become one of the '5' and we will get rid
of the 'helpers' as we do 800,000.00 of work before xmass.....

1. Owner of company seems to promote a mixed message....
a. will ask "How are you doing" without stopping as he walks
by without stopping, but looks you in the eye.
b. will not allow paychecks to be handed out until 5:31 on Payday
even though payroll is for the 2dn and 3rd week back.
c. workday is 7:00 am till 5:30 6 days with hour for lunch but
whimsical overtime is mandatory (whimsical being no notice).
2. All of the salary workers (3) are appearantly unsatasfied because
they are paid less that many of the 'workers' because they are not
paid for overtime and have few if any benifits and are in fear of
losing thier positions at anytime because the boss is fickle and
irresponsible in his dealings with customers and vendors.
3. Currently the business does not seem to know if it is a door
manufacturing facility or a cabinet factory.
4. Spray Booth is a Joke..... hole cut in wall with a Borg roll around
floor fan screwed into hole and 'spraybooth' seperated by other area
with a blue tarp screwed to rafters.... and 32 foot of flourscent
lighting per 1,000 foot of space.
5. $ 150,000 edge bander and $ 20,000 scmi sliding table saw with a $
12,000 Startech assembly drilling station and 1, 9.6 volt makita drill
that works (1 battery( may be another but no one knows where)) and
then a few other tools.... mostly 5 shaper heads, sander (singlebelt
(needs help)), a couple specialty items,,, face frame table and single
had pocket hole machine.... few tools are sort og new... shopfox 'tm
bandsaw (large toy) 20'ish planer and a williams and hussey moulder
(another toy).
Big point is a few mid-high end tools and a few hand tools with a
bunch of home version tools in the middle.
6. when I started there was;
a. Owner (2 years~)
b. Designer ( 2 years ~)
c. Cad man (1 year ~)
d. Foreman~ (1.5 years)
e. Shop manager ( 6 months)
f. Apprentice (3 months)
and a handful of 1 - 2 month guys most are gone now........ within a
week of my hire there were 16 total and now there are 15 but we will
lose 6 on monday.
7. 1 month ago I was told that if I cut 6k per day of cabinetry for 5
days in a week I would get a $ 100.00 bonus..... this has not happened
but then I have not made an issue to more than 2 of the 3 that made
that offer to me.
8. Days will now go by where we have to get something out that is
promised TODAY even though 'the shop' has not seen plans for such an
item and there is no material to cot that item out of often because (I
am told "we owe that supplier money") but we will send a driver on a 6
hour trip to get material from a new vendor 3 states away that will
arrive at 4:00 PM on a friday.... "gotta be here saturday cause this
is a RUSH".
9. Front shop is no smoking but paint room / Door shop is ok to smoke
as long as you put it out when you see the boss..... so there are
several people who find a need to "run to the back" so often we are
not sure if they are comming or going at all times.
10. I believe in equal pay for work of equal value but do not see that
in place.

There is no one - two or three year plan that I can see and only a
hastly formatted green and brown bar graph to say that 'we are losing
money'

I work the numbers and see that the $ 30,000 per week with 800,000 by
years end is just not possible no way no how...


I am trying to get over how upset that I am that I am asked to become
salary when as a hourly I only get a single day off and am expected to
work all but sinday, xmass and possibly easter off (thank gawds that
is on a sunday).

how can work in a cabinet shop be measured while still straying from a
hierarchical managment structure that is fair, pays well and promotes
success and a feeling of success?

Managment has decided to outsource door and drawer fronts and just
build box's...... there does not seem to be goals (does "make money"
count?)

Strategy is offer the moon .... deliver the cabinets at 75% for the
draw and then scrabble to make up the rest when already overloaded
with all the other dramas.

I am looking for guidance on how to negociate my best working deal
cause I want to spend time with family, boat, cats, computer and not
be a zonbie from just the average 70+ workweek....... even though the
boss tells stories about his old job where he averaged 120 hour
weeks,,,


Kevin Wade
lost in Florida



  #2   Report Post  
Leon
 
Posts: n/a
Default Salary-VS-Hourly $ 15.00 hr (50 hrs+) Salary with bonus??? hard decision


"Kevin Wade" wrote in message
...

Snip

1. Owner of company seems to promote a mixed message....
a. will ask "How are you doing" without stopping as he walks
by without stopping, but looks you in the eye.


He is in over his head with problems.

b. will not allow paychecks to be handed out until 5:31 on Payday
even though payroll is for the 2dn and 3rd week back.


Unfortunately this is necessary in many shops as almost always at least one
employee will take off immediately to cash that check.

c. workday is 7:00 am till 5:30 6 days with hour for lunch but
whimsical overtime is mandatory (whimsical being no notice).


That good part about the over time when you are an hourly worker is that you
should be paid overtime. If you go as a saleried employee, the over time
pay will disappear.

2. All of the salary workers (3) are appearantly unsatasfied because
they are paid less that many of the 'workers' because they are not
paid for overtime and have few if any benifits and are in fear of
losing thier positions at anytime because the boss is fickle and
irresponsible in his dealings with customers and vendors.


That can happen, I once worked for a LARGE automobile dealer ship and I had
a mechanic that made more money than the owner. The mechanic was of course
paid by the hour. The flip side of that coin is that you get the same pay
day in and day out even during the slow times if you are a salaried
employee.

3. Currently the business does not seem to know if it is a door
manufacturing facility or a cabinet factory.


From all the information above, you have painted a picture of a business
that is not long for this world. I would star puttin gfeelers out for
another job. I think you see the writing on the wall.



  #3   Report Post  
Mark & Juanita
 
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Default Salary-VS-Hourly $ 15.00 hr (50 hrs+) Salary with bonus??? hard decision



In article ,
says...

I have been woodworking since 1986 in large and small firms. ( 2 - 85
employees) and have been offered an "upgrade" to a salaried position
in a form where I am unsure of how bad things will get.

points without order cause I am fuzzy headed after a 13 hour day
(normal) where the last hour was the "we are not making money the last
2 months and things are getting worse" speech along with the "I invite

.... snip
I am looking for guidance on how to negociate my best working deal
cause I want to spend time with family, boat, cats, computer and not
be a zonbie from just the average 70+ workweek....... even though the
boss tells stories about his old job where he averaged 120 hour
weeks,,,


Kevin Wade
lost in Florida


My $0.02 and probably worth less:

1. It appears that you are working for a company that is either at, or
near bankruptcy from the description you give of equipment, pay policy,
and vendor blacklisting. This company has a serious cash-flow problem
and is attempting to enforce heroic efforts on the part of its employees
to postpone a reckoning. You have to decide how much you are willing to
sacrifice for something you don't own and will not share in any rewards.

2. Despite the boss indicating that he worked 120 hour weeks in the
past, he's claiming to have worked 7 days at over 17 hours per day. How
long did he do that? I would guess he did so in expectation of certain
rewards, what rewards are you being offered to make such heroic
sacrifices? This is not being greedy, lazy, or self-centered. You are
the only person who is going to care about your career growth and
opportunities, you need to assess whether what you are being offered is
worth the sacrifice it is going to take to get it. You also need to
factor any promised rewards in light of item #1 above; from your
description of conditions, be very wary of any long-term reward
promises, it sounds doubtful that this business will be in place long
enough to provide more than your last paycheck, if that, when it goes
belly-up.

3. Being converted from non-exempt to exempt. Unless your job
responsibilities are changing significantly, this seems to be a
potential fair-labor standards act violation (note, I am not a lawyer,
nor do I play one on TV, but I have been associated with these types of
issues where I work) -- there may be sufficient wiggle-room however for
this to be a valid change in status.

4. You indicate that you believe the conversion to salaried is being
done to avoid having to pay overtime. i.e. you are going to be
"donating" 30 hours per week to this business enterprise if you continue
to work 70 hour weeks. You have a couple of ways to approach this if
you are given any choices at all and are not simply being offered a
straight take-it or leave it choice. First, you can figure how much you
are currently making at the 70 hour per week rate you are doing now,
determine how much of that amount you can ask for, determine whether any
benefits are also being forfeited and add those to your salary demand
(you indicate the salaried workers are not drawing benefits, do you as
an hourly worker get benefits while they do not? If so, you need to
determine how much it is going to cost you to make up this amount). A
second possible approach would be to accept the salary you are offered,
but negotiate how much overtime is "casual" overtime to be uncompensated
(where I work, it is 8 hours); any amount of time over that "casual"
overtime (and typically including that casual overtime after you hit the
threshold) is to be compensated at straight salary levels (i.e. you
won't get time and a half, but you will be compensated for those extra
hours at your regular salary).

5. Decide whether you would be better off walking away. You might meet
all of this employer's demands and still wind up having it go belly-up
-- especially if it is as poorly managed as you indicate. You might
have to relocate, you may have to find a different career path, only you
know what limits your mobility.

Good luck to you, this is not an easy situation with which to have to
deal.

  #4   Report Post  
Charlie Self
 
Posts: n/a
Default Salary-VS-Hourly $ 15.00 hr (50 hrs+) Salary with bonus??? hard decision

Kevin Wade asks:

snip of absolute horror story

I am looking for guidance on how to negociate my best working deal
cause I want to spend time with family, boat, cats, computer and not
be a zonbie from just the average 70+ workweek....... even though the
boss tells stories about his old job where he averaged 120 hour
weeks,,,


Start job hunting. Your boss is full of **** (a common failing), and the
company is teetering.

Charlie Self

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know
for sure that just ain't so."
Mark Twain














  #5   Report Post  
George M. Kazaka
 
Posts: n/a
Default Salary-VS-Hourly $ 15.00 hr (50 hrs+) Salary with bonus??? hard decision

Kevin,
I have one word for you
Quit,
Find another Job and find it fast,
I have been in and around woodworking & business for 48 years.
I have been where your boss i, and he is in a hole and all the walls are
covered with oil
he will never get out,

I can say a hundred things and tell you a hundred storie's about your
situation and what you are seing
The main thing as i read your post is that i was wondering if you were in
another country, Maybe Florida has some weird labor laws, but this guy is
breaking so many Federal labor laws it is pathetic.

I see nothing wrong with him trying to hold his company together with lack
or failing equipment as long as they do not put someone in harms way,
Neccesity is the mother of invention.

Game playing is bad everywhere in life,
Hustling cash flow is an art, one that is not taught in schools other than
the school of hard knocks.

Nothing wrong in outsourcing its the way most companies operate nowaday.
I make a lot of my own doors, i am a custon shop and generally add that
little something that you just won't find anywhere, give me acut and dried
raised panel door and it is cheaper for me to buy them from a door company
that does nothing but, an average red oak raised door cost me about 10.00
per sq.ft. and the good part is i have not given up any quality.

I from what you wrote I thought that your boss was just having a rough time
in a hard economy, I say stop your bitching a show some loyality,
This is a rough business even when times are good. But as I said this guy is
in a hole so deep there is now way he can get out, as they say the writing
is on the wall.

Most vendors will still ship to you if you get behind, they will ship to you
COD and 10% of your back bill, they do not like it but they really do not
want to see you go under and loose what you completly.
No company can make overtime mandantory, IT is criminaly illegal.
Uncle Sam says that even salaried people have to have there salary based on
a set amount of hours and after that you get paid extra.

The other reasons are the best reason for leaving there, You are not happy
there for one, to me if you are not happy at your job then you are not
giving it your best, and your best is what your boss deserves under any
conditions.
The other is the hours, tell your boss 120 hours a week is nothing to what i
used to do, I was a true down and out workaholic and trust me when I say
that is just as bad as a herion addict, or an alcoholic.

Best wishes and Good Luck
George





"Kevin Wade" wrote in message
...

I have been woodworking since 1986 in large and small firms. ( 2 - 85
employees) and have been offered an "upgrade" to a salaried position
in a form where I am unsure of how bad things will get.

points without order cause I am fuzzy headed after a 13 hour day
(normal) where the last hour was the "we are not making money the last
2 months and things are getting worse" speech along with the "I invite
you to join the salaried and become one of the '5' and we will get rid
of the 'helpers' as we do 800,000.00 of work before xmass.....

1. Owner of company seems to promote a mixed message....
a. will ask "How are you doing" without stopping as he walks
by without stopping, but looks you in the eye.
b. will not allow paychecks to be handed out until 5:31 on Payday
even though payroll is for the 2dn and 3rd week back.
c. workday is 7:00 am till 5:30 6 days with hour for lunch but
whimsical overtime is mandatory (whimsical being no notice).
2. All of the salary workers (3) are appearantly unsatasfied because
they are paid less that many of the 'workers' because they are not
paid for overtime and have few if any benifits and are in fear of
losing thier positions at anytime because the boss is fickle and
irresponsible in his dealings with customers and vendors.
3. Currently the business does not seem to know if it is a door
manufacturing facility or a cabinet factory.
4. Spray Booth is a Joke..... hole cut in wall with a Borg roll around
floor fan screwed into hole and 'spraybooth' seperated by other area
with a blue tarp screwed to rafters.... and 32 foot of flourscent
lighting per 1,000 foot of space.
5. $ 150,000 edge bander and $ 20,000 scmi sliding table saw with a $
12,000 Startech assembly drilling station and 1, 9.6 volt makita drill
that works (1 battery( may be another but no one knows where)) and
then a few other tools.... mostly 5 shaper heads, sander (singlebelt
(needs help)), a couple specialty items,,, face frame table and single
had pocket hole machine.... few tools are sort og new... shopfox 'tm
bandsaw (large toy) 20'ish planer and a williams and hussey moulder
(another toy).
Big point is a few mid-high end tools and a few hand tools with a
bunch of home version tools in the middle.
6. when I started there was;
a. Owner (2 years~)
b. Designer ( 2 years ~)
c. Cad man (1 year ~)
d. Foreman~ (1.5 years)
e. Shop manager ( 6 months)
f. Apprentice (3 months)
and a handful of 1 - 2 month guys most are gone now........ within a
week of my hire there were 16 total and now there are 15 but we will
lose 6 on monday.
7. 1 month ago I was told that if I cut 6k per day of cabinetry for 5
days in a week I would get a $ 100.00 bonus..... this has not happened
but then I have not made an issue to more than 2 of the 3 that made
that offer to me.
8. Days will now go by where we have to get something out that is
promised TODAY even though 'the shop' has not seen plans for such an
item and there is no material to cot that item out of often because (I
am told "we owe that supplier money") but we will send a driver on a 6
hour trip to get material from a new vendor 3 states away that will
arrive at 4:00 PM on a friday.... "gotta be here saturday cause this
is a RUSH".
9. Front shop is no smoking but paint room / Door shop is ok to smoke
as long as you put it out when you see the boss..... so there are
several people who find a need to "run to the back" so often we are
not sure if they are comming or going at all times.
10. I believe in equal pay for work of equal value but do not see that
in place.

There is no one - two or three year plan that I can see and only a
hastly formatted green and brown bar graph to say that 'we are losing
money'

I work the numbers and see that the $ 30,000 per week with 800,000 by
years end is just not possible no way no how...


I am trying to get over how upset that I am that I am asked to become
salary when as a hourly I only get a single day off and am expected to
work all but sinday, xmass and possibly easter off (thank gawds that
is on a sunday).

how can work in a cabinet shop be measured while still straying from a
hierarchical managment structure that is fair, pays well and promotes
success and a feeling of success?

Managment has decided to outsource door and drawer fronts and just
build box's...... there does not seem to be goals (does "make money"
count?)

Strategy is offer the moon .... deliver the cabinets at 75% for the
draw and then scrabble to make up the rest when already overloaded
with all the other dramas.

I am looking for guidance on how to negociate my best working deal
cause I want to spend time with family, boat, cats, computer and not
be a zonbie from just the average 70+ workweek....... even though the
boss tells stories about his old job where he averaged 120 hour
weeks,,,


Kevin Wade
lost in Florida







  #6   Report Post  
Morgans
 
Posts: n/a
Default Salary-VS-Hourly $ 15.00 hr (50 hrs+) Salary with bonus??? hard decision


"Kevin Wade" wrote in message
...

I have been woodworking since 1986 in large and small firms. ( 2 - 85
employees) and have been offered an "upgrade" to a salaried position
in a form where I am unsure of how bad things will get.

points without order cause I am fuzzy headed after a 13 hour day
(normal) where the last hour was the "we are not making money the last
2 months and things are getting worse" speech along with the "I invite
you to join the salaried and become one of the '5' and we will get rid
of the 'helpers' as we do 800,000.00 of work before xmass.....
Kevin Wade
lost in Florida


Sounds like, by posting this, you have made the first admission, by
admitting there is a BIG problem.

Start working on your way out, immediately. The writing is on the wall. If
you were not working so hard you would already see it.

By joining management, will you be opening yourself to more responsibility
for the spray room accident that is likely to come?

Life is too short. Be happy.
--
Jim in NC


  #7   Report Post  
Montyhp
 
Posts: n/a
Default Salary-VS-Hourly $ 15.00 hr (50 hrs+) Salary with bonus??? hard decision

A fairly simple way to think about it. To go from hourly to salary you
would need one (or more) of three things:

1. Benefits

2. A piece of the business

3. Much greater opportunity for advancement.

Other than that, I can't see any reason to take a pay cut.

Montyhp

"Kevin Wade" wrote in message
...

I have been woodworking since 1986 in large and small firms. ( 2 - 85
employees) and have been offered an "upgrade" to a salaried position
in a form where I am unsure of how bad things will get.

points without order cause I am fuzzy headed after a 13 hour day
(normal) where the last hour was the "we are not making money the last
2 months and things are getting worse" speech along with the "I invite
you to join the salaried and become one of the '5' and we will get rid
of the 'helpers' as we do 800,000.00 of work before xmass.....

1. Owner of company seems to promote a mixed message....
a. will ask "How are you doing" without stopping as he walks
by without stopping, but looks you in the eye.
b. will not allow paychecks to be handed out until 5:31 on Payday
even though payroll is for the 2dn and 3rd week back.
c. workday is 7:00 am till 5:30 6 days with hour for lunch but
whimsical overtime is mandatory (whimsical being no notice).
2. All of the salary workers (3) are appearantly unsatasfied because
they are paid less that many of the 'workers' because they are not
paid for overtime and have few if any benifits and are in fear of
losing thier positions at anytime because the boss is fickle and
irresponsible in his dealings with customers and vendors.
3. Currently the business does not seem to know if it is a door
manufacturing facility or a cabinet factory.
4. Spray Booth is a Joke..... hole cut in wall with a Borg roll around
floor fan screwed into hole and 'spraybooth' seperated by other area
with a blue tarp screwed to rafters.... and 32 foot of flourscent
lighting per 1,000 foot of space.
5. $ 150,000 edge bander and $ 20,000 scmi sliding table saw with a $
12,000 Startech assembly drilling station and 1, 9.6 volt makita drill
that works (1 battery( may be another but no one knows where)) and
then a few other tools.... mostly 5 shaper heads, sander (singlebelt
(needs help)), a couple specialty items,,, face frame table and single
had pocket hole machine.... few tools are sort og new... shopfox 'tm
bandsaw (large toy) 20'ish planer and a williams and hussey moulder
(another toy).
Big point is a few mid-high end tools and a few hand tools with a
bunch of home version tools in the middle.
6. when I started there was;
a. Owner (2 years~)
b. Designer ( 2 years ~)
c. Cad man (1 year ~)
d. Foreman~ (1.5 years)
e. Shop manager ( 6 months)
f. Apprentice (3 months)
and a handful of 1 - 2 month guys most are gone now........ within a
week of my hire there were 16 total and now there are 15 but we will
lose 6 on monday.
7. 1 month ago I was told that if I cut 6k per day of cabinetry for 5
days in a week I would get a $ 100.00 bonus..... this has not happened
but then I have not made an issue to more than 2 of the 3 that made
that offer to me.
8. Days will now go by where we have to get something out that is
promised TODAY even though 'the shop' has not seen plans for such an
item and there is no material to cot that item out of often because (I
am told "we owe that supplier money") but we will send a driver on a 6
hour trip to get material from a new vendor 3 states away that will
arrive at 4:00 PM on a friday.... "gotta be here saturday cause this
is a RUSH".
9. Front shop is no smoking but paint room / Door shop is ok to smoke
as long as you put it out when you see the boss..... so there are
several people who find a need to "run to the back" so often we are
not sure if they are comming or going at all times.
10. I believe in equal pay for work of equal value but do not see that
in place.

There is no one - two or three year plan that I can see and only a
hastly formatted green and brown bar graph to say that 'we are losing
money'

I work the numbers and see that the $ 30,000 per week with 800,000 by
years end is just not possible no way no how...


I am trying to get over how upset that I am that I am asked to become
salary when as a hourly I only get a single day off and am expected to
work all but sinday, xmass and possibly easter off (thank gawds that
is on a sunday).

how can work in a cabinet shop be measured while still straying from a
hierarchical managment structure that is fair, pays well and promotes
success and a feeling of success?

Managment has decided to outsource door and drawer fronts and just
build box's...... there does not seem to be goals (does "make money"
count?)

Strategy is offer the moon .... deliver the cabinets at 75% for the
draw and then scrabble to make up the rest when already overloaded
with all the other dramas.

I am looking for guidance on how to negociate my best working deal
cause I want to spend time with family, boat, cats, computer and not
be a zonbie from just the average 70+ workweek....... even though the
boss tells stories about his old job where he averaged 120 hour
weeks,,,


Kevin Wade
lost in Florida





  #8   Report Post  
Edwin Pawlowski
 
Posts: n/a
Default Salary-VS-Hourly $ 15.00 hr (50 hrs+) Salary with bonus??? hard decision

"Kevin Wade" wrote in message

I have been woodworking since 1986 in large and small firms. ( 2 - 85
employees) and have been offered an "upgrade" to a salaried position
in a form where I am unsure of how bad things will get.

points without order cause I am fuzzy headed after a 13 hour day
(normal) where the last hour was the "we are not making money the last
2 months and things are getting worse" speech along with the "I invite
you to join the salaried and become one of the '5' and we will get rid
of the 'helpers' as we do 800,000.00 of work before xmass.....
Kevin Wade
lost in Florida


Sounds like time to find a new job. Salary has it benefits, but you have to
be paid fairly for the real time put in, not the 40 hour rate. In this case
it sounds more like they are trying to eliminate the overtime pay. What do
you get in return?
Ed


  #9   Report Post  
The Guy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Salary-VS-Hourly $ 15.00 hr (50 hrs+) Salary with bonus??? harddecision



Kevin Wade wrote:
snip

I am looking for guidance on how to negociate my best working deal
cause I want to spend time with family, boat, cats, computer and not
be a zonbie from just the average 70+ workweek....... even though the
boss tells stories about his old job where he averaged 120 hour
weeks,,,


Kevin Wade
lost in Florida




Essentially, the Boss is negotiating with you about a new job with fixed
pay and variable hours. This IS a negotiation. You might make a
counter offer that you could accept the pay and hours IF you owned a
piece of the company, had access to the financial records and would
share proportionately in any future profits. If this idea is acceptable
to the Boss, make sure you have your accountant look at the financials
to see just how much of a hole the business is in.

I know a number of people who helped salvage run down operations over
the years and did well by sharing in future profits. I also know
others who financially flamed out in the process. Nothing ventured,
nothing gained.

Plan B is to find work elsewhere with "regular" hours. You might even
try the shop where the door work will be outsourced.

Tim

  #10   Report Post  
Larry C in Auburn, WA
 
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Default Salary-VS-Hourly $ 15.00 hr (50 hrs+) Salary with bonus??? hard decision

You know the situation and you know what's important to you; both are clear
in your message. Now go do what you already know you need to do.

Larry C in Auburn, WA


"Kevin Wade" wrote in message
...

I have been woodworking since 1986 in large and small firms. ( 2 - 85
employees) and have been offered an "upgrade" to a salaried position
in a form where I am unsure of how bad things will get.

points without order cause I am fuzzy headed after a 13 hour day
(normal) where the last hour was the "we are not making money the last
2 months and things are getting worse" speech along with the "I invite
you to join the salaried and become one of the '5' and we will get rid
of the 'helpers' as we do 800,000.00 of work before xmass.....

1. Owner of company seems to promote a mixed message....
a. will ask "How are you doing" without stopping as he walks
by without stopping, but looks you in the eye.
b. will not allow paychecks to be handed out until 5:31 on Payday
even though payroll is for the 2dn and 3rd week back.
c. workday is 7:00 am till 5:30 6 days with hour for lunch but
whimsical overtime is mandatory (whimsical being no notice).
2. All of the salary workers (3) are appearantly unsatasfied because
they are paid less that many of the 'workers' because they are not
paid for overtime and have few if any benifits and are in fear of
losing thier positions at anytime because the boss is fickle and
irresponsible in his dealings with customers and vendors.
3. Currently the business does not seem to know if it is a door
manufacturing facility or a cabinet factory.
4. Spray Booth is a Joke..... hole cut in wall with a Borg roll around
floor fan screwed into hole and 'spraybooth' seperated by other area
with a blue tarp screwed to rafters.... and 32 foot of flourscent
lighting per 1,000 foot of space.
5. $ 150,000 edge bander and $ 20,000 scmi sliding table saw with a $
12,000 Startech assembly drilling station and 1, 9.6 volt makita drill
that works (1 battery( may be another but no one knows where)) and
then a few other tools.... mostly 5 shaper heads, sander (singlebelt
(needs help)), a couple specialty items,,, face frame table and single
had pocket hole machine.... few tools are sort og new... shopfox 'tm
bandsaw (large toy) 20'ish planer and a williams and hussey moulder
(another toy).
Big point is a few mid-high end tools and a few hand tools with a
bunch of home version tools in the middle.
6. when I started there was;
a. Owner (2 years~)
b. Designer ( 2 years ~)
c. Cad man (1 year ~)
d. Foreman~ (1.5 years)
e. Shop manager ( 6 months)
f. Apprentice (3 months)
and a handful of 1 - 2 month guys most are gone now........ within a
week of my hire there were 16 total and now there are 15 but we will
lose 6 on monday.
7. 1 month ago I was told that if I cut 6k per day of cabinetry for 5
days in a week I would get a $ 100.00 bonus..... this has not happened
but then I have not made an issue to more than 2 of the 3 that made
that offer to me.
8. Days will now go by where we have to get something out that is
promised TODAY even though 'the shop' has not seen plans for such an
item and there is no material to cot that item out of often because (I
am told "we owe that supplier money") but we will send a driver on a 6
hour trip to get material from a new vendor 3 states away that will
arrive at 4:00 PM on a friday.... "gotta be here saturday cause this
is a RUSH".
9. Front shop is no smoking but paint room / Door shop is ok to smoke
as long as you put it out when you see the boss..... so there are
several people who find a need to "run to the back" so often we are
not sure if they are comming or going at all times.
10. I believe in equal pay for work of equal value but do not see that
in place.

There is no one - two or three year plan that I can see and only a
hastly formatted green and brown bar graph to say that 'we are losing
money'

I work the numbers and see that the $ 30,000 per week with 800,000 by
years end is just not possible no way no how...


I am trying to get over how upset that I am that I am asked to become
salary when as a hourly I only get a single day off and am expected to
work all but sinday, xmass and possibly easter off (thank gawds that
is on a sunday).

how can work in a cabinet shop be measured while still straying from a
hierarchical managment structure that is fair, pays well and promotes
success and a feeling of success?

Managment has decided to outsource door and drawer fronts and just
build box's...... there does not seem to be goals (does "make money"
count?)

Strategy is offer the moon .... deliver the cabinets at 75% for the
draw and then scrabble to make up the rest when already overloaded
with all the other dramas.

I am looking for guidance on how to negociate my best working deal
cause I want to spend time with family, boat, cats, computer and not
be a zonbie from just the average 70+ workweek....... even though the
boss tells stories about his old job where he averaged 120 hour
weeks,,,


Kevin Wade
lost in Florida







  #11   Report Post  
Bob Stewart
 
Posts: n/a
Default Salary-VS-Hourly $ 15.00 hr (50 hrs+) Salary with bonus??? harddecision

FWIW, I am an attorney who works in this area of law and want to correct
a few of George's misstatements:
1. There is nothing illegal about requiring mandatory OT so long as the
employer compensates for it as required by law. If you don't want to
work it, you can refuse.
2. Under the federal Fair Labor Standards Act ("FLSA"), an employer is
not required to pay a lawfully salaried employee additional OT
compensation after the agreed upon base number of hours.
3. Most importantly, given the work you describe, there is no way you
could lawfully be classified as a salary-exempt employee under the FLSA.
The U.S. Department of Labor or its Florida equivalent can help you.

George M. Kazaka wrote:
Kevin,
I have one word for you
Quit,
Find another Job and find it fast,
I have been in and around woodworking & business for 48 years.
I have been where your boss i, and he is in a hole and all the walls are
covered with oil
he will never get out,

I can say a hundred things and tell you a hundred storie's about your
situation and what you are seing
The main thing as i read your post is that i was wondering if you were in
another country, Maybe Florida has some weird labor laws, but this guy is
breaking so many Federal labor laws it is pathetic.

I see nothing wrong with him trying to hold his company together with lack
or failing equipment as long as they do not put someone in harms way,
Neccesity is the mother of invention.

Game playing is bad everywhere in life,
Hustling cash flow is an art, one that is not taught in schools other than
the school of hard knocks.

Nothing wrong in outsourcing its the way most companies operate nowaday.
I make a lot of my own doors, i am a custon shop and generally add that
little something that you just won't find anywhere, give me acut and dried
raised panel door and it is cheaper for me to buy them from a door company
that does nothing but, an average red oak raised door cost me about 10.00
per sq.ft. and the good part is i have not given up any quality.

I from what you wrote I thought that your boss was just having a rough time
in a hard economy, I say stop your bitching a show some loyality,
This is a rough business even when times are good. But as I said this guy is
in a hole so deep there is now way he can get out, as they say the writing
is on the wall.

Most vendors will still ship to you if you get behind, they will ship to you
COD and 10% of your back bill, they do not like it but they really do not
want to see you go under and loose what you completly.
No company can make overtime mandantory, IT is criminaly illegal.
Uncle Sam says that even salaried people have to have there salary based on
a set amount of hours and after that you get paid extra.

The other reasons are the best reason for leaving there, You are not happy
there for one, to me if you are not happy at your job then you are not
giving it your best, and your best is what your boss deserves under any
conditions.
The other is the hours, tell your boss 120 hours a week is nothing to what i
used to do, I was a true down and out workaholic and trust me when I say
that is just as bad as a herion addict, or an alcoholic.

Best wishes and Good Luck
George





"Kevin Wade" wrote in message
...

I have been woodworking since 1986 in large and small firms. ( 2 - 85
employees) and have been offered an "upgrade" to a salaried position
in a form where I am unsure of how bad things will get.

points without order cause I am fuzzy headed after a 13 hour day
(normal) where the last hour was the "we are not making money the last
2 months and things are getting worse" speech along with the "I invite
you to join the salaried and become one of the '5' and we will get rid
of the 'helpers' as we do 800,000.00 of work before xmass.....

1. Owner of company seems to promote a mixed message....
a. will ask "How are you doing" without stopping as he walks
by without stopping, but looks you in the eye.
b. will not allow paychecks to be handed out until 5:31 on Payday
even though payroll is for the 2dn and 3rd week back.
c. workday is 7:00 am till 5:30 6 days with hour for lunch but
whimsical overtime is mandatory (whimsical being no notice).
2. All of the salary workers (3) are appearantly unsatasfied because
they are paid less that many of the 'workers' because they are not
paid for overtime and have few if any benifits and are in fear of
losing thier positions at anytime because the boss is fickle and
irresponsible in his dealings with customers and vendors.
3. Currently the business does not seem to know if it is a door
manufacturing facility or a cabinet factory.
4. Spray Booth is a Joke..... hole cut in wall with a Borg roll around
floor fan screwed into hole and 'spraybooth' seperated by other area
with a blue tarp screwed to rafters.... and 32 foot of flourscent
lighting per 1,000 foot of space.
5. $ 150,000 edge bander and $ 20,000 scmi sliding table saw with a $
12,000 Startech assembly drilling station and 1, 9.6 volt makita drill
that works (1 battery( may be another but no one knows where)) and
then a few other tools.... mostly 5 shaper heads, sander (singlebelt
(needs help)), a couple specialty items,,, face frame table and single
had pocket hole machine.... few tools are sort og new... shopfox 'tm
bandsaw (large toy) 20'ish planer and a williams and hussey moulder
(another toy).
Big point is a few mid-high end tools and a few hand tools with a
bunch of home version tools in the middle.
6. when I started there was;
a. Owner (2 years~)
b. Designer ( 2 years ~)
c. Cad man (1 year ~)
d. Foreman~ (1.5 years)
e. Shop manager ( 6 months)
f. Apprentice (3 months)
and a handful of 1 - 2 month guys most are gone now........ within a
week of my hire there were 16 total and now there are 15 but we will
lose 6 on monday.
7. 1 month ago I was told that if I cut 6k per day of cabinetry for 5
days in a week I would get a $ 100.00 bonus..... this has not happened
but then I have not made an issue to more than 2 of the 3 that made
that offer to me.
8. Days will now go by where we have to get something out that is
promised TODAY even though 'the shop' has not seen plans for such an
item and there is no material to cot that item out of often because (I
am told "we owe that supplier money") but we will send a driver on a 6
hour trip to get material from a new vendor 3 states away that will
arrive at 4:00 PM on a friday.... "gotta be here saturday cause this
is a RUSH".
9. Front shop is no smoking but paint room / Door shop is ok to smoke
as long as you put it out when you see the boss..... so there are
several people who find a need to "run to the back" so often we are
not sure if they are comming or going at all times.
10. I believe in equal pay for work of equal value but do not see that
in place.

There is no one - two or three year plan that I can see and only a
hastly formatted green and brown bar graph to say that 'we are losing
money'

I work the numbers and see that the $ 30,000 per week with 800,000 by
years end is just not possible no way no how...


I am trying to get over how upset that I am that I am asked to become
salary when as a hourly I only get a single day off and am expected to
work all but sinday, xmass and possibly easter off (thank gawds that
is on a sunday).

how can work in a cabinet shop be measured while still straying from a
hierarchical managment structure that is fair, pays well and promotes
success and a feeling of success?

Managment has decided to outsource door and drawer fronts and just
build box's...... there does not seem to be goals (does "make money"
count?)

Strategy is offer the moon .... deliver the cabinets at 75% for the
draw and then scrabble to make up the rest when already overloaded
with all the other dramas.

I am looking for guidance on how to negociate my best working deal
cause I want to spend time with family, boat, cats, computer and not
be a zonbie from just the average 70+ workweek....... even though the
boss tells stories about his old job where he averaged 120 hour
weeks,,,


Kevin Wade
lost in Florida







  #12   Report Post  
Lawrence A. Ramsey
 
Posts: n/a
Default Salary-VS-Hourly $ 15.00 hr (50 hrs+) Salary with bonus??? hard decision

Uh Wade, why are you waiting? Gotta have the roof fall in on ya'?

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 22:39:21 -0500, Kevin Wade wrote:


I have been woodworking since 1986 in large and small firms. ( 2 - 85
employees) and have been offered an "upgrade" to a salaried position
in a form where I am unsure of how bad things will get.

points without order cause I am fuzzy headed after a 13 hour day
(normal) where the last hour was the "we are not making money the last
2 months and things are getting worse" speech along with the "I invite
you to join the salaried and become one of the '5' and we will get rid
of the 'helpers' as we do 800,000.00 of work before xmass.....

1. Owner of company seems to promote a mixed message....
a. will ask "How are you doing" without stopping as he walks
by without stopping, but looks you in the eye.
b. will not allow paychecks to be handed out until 5:31 on Payday
even though payroll is for the 2dn and 3rd week back.
c. workday is 7:00 am till 5:30 6 days with hour for lunch but
whimsical overtime is mandatory (whimsical being no notice).
2. All of the salary workers (3) are appearantly unsatasfied because
they are paid less that many of the 'workers' because they are not
paid for overtime and have few if any benifits and are in fear of
losing thier positions at anytime because the boss is fickle and
irresponsible in his dealings with customers and vendors.
3. Currently the business does not seem to know if it is a door
manufacturing facility or a cabinet factory.
4. Spray Booth is a Joke..... hole cut in wall with a Borg roll around
floor fan screwed into hole and 'spraybooth' seperated by other area
with a blue tarp screwed to rafters.... and 32 foot of flourscent
lighting per 1,000 foot of space.
5. $ 150,000 edge bander and $ 20,000 scmi sliding table saw with a $
12,000 Startech assembly drilling station and 1, 9.6 volt makita drill
that works (1 battery( may be another but no one knows where)) and
then a few other tools.... mostly 5 shaper heads, sander (singlebelt
(needs help)), a couple specialty items,,, face frame table and single
had pocket hole machine.... few tools are sort og new... shopfox 'tm
bandsaw (large toy) 20'ish planer and a williams and hussey moulder
(another toy).
Big point is a few mid-high end tools and a few hand tools with a
bunch of home version tools in the middle.
6. when I started there was;
a. Owner (2 years~)
b. Designer ( 2 years ~)
c. Cad man (1 year ~)
d. Foreman~ (1.5 years)
e. Shop manager ( 6 months)
f. Apprentice (3 months)
and a handful of 1 - 2 month guys most are gone now........ within a
week of my hire there were 16 total and now there are 15 but we will
lose 6 on monday.
7. 1 month ago I was told that if I cut 6k per day of cabinetry for 5
days in a week I would get a $ 100.00 bonus..... this has not happened
but then I have not made an issue to more than 2 of the 3 that made
that offer to me.
8. Days will now go by where we have to get something out that is
promised TODAY even though 'the shop' has not seen plans for such an
item and there is no material to cot that item out of often because (I
am told "we owe that supplier money") but we will send a driver on a 6
hour trip to get material from a new vendor 3 states away that will
arrive at 4:00 PM on a friday.... "gotta be here saturday cause this
is a RUSH".
9. Front shop is no smoking but paint room / Door shop is ok to smoke
as long as you put it out when you see the boss..... so there are
several people who find a need to "run to the back" so often we are
not sure if they are comming or going at all times.
10. I believe in equal pay for work of equal value but do not see that
in place.

There is no one - two or three year plan that I can see and only a
hastly formatted green and brown bar graph to say that 'we are losing
money'

I work the numbers and see that the $ 30,000 per week with 800,000 by
years end is just not possible no way no how...


I am trying to get over how upset that I am that I am asked to become
salary when as a hourly I only get a single day off and am expected to
work all but sinday, xmass and possibly easter off (thank gawds that
is on a sunday).

how can work in a cabinet shop be measured while still straying from a
hierarchical managment structure that is fair, pays well and promotes
success and a feeling of success?

Managment has decided to outsource door and drawer fronts and just
build box's...... there does not seem to be goals (does "make money"
count?)

Strategy is offer the moon .... deliver the cabinets at 75% for the
draw and then scrabble to make up the rest when already overloaded
with all the other dramas.

I am looking for guidance on how to negociate my best working deal
cause I want to spend time with family, boat, cats, computer and not
be a zonbie from just the average 70+ workweek....... even though the
boss tells stories about his old job where he averaged 120 hour
weeks,,,


Kevin Wade
lost in Florida



  #13   Report Post  
George M. Kazaka
 
Posts: n/a
Default Salary-VS-Hourly $ 15.00 hr (50 hrs+) Salary with bonus??? hard decision

Thanks for the expert legal advice, I do respect your expertise and bow to
your Knowledge of the law.
However unless they changed and as I am not a lawyer, I cannot quote the
actual law,
but Check with the IRS on the Overtime issue Unless they changed it they can
force an employer to pay Time and Half to a salaried employee or at least
compensate the employee after a certain amount of time.
And it did not matter what the agreement is.

I agree that there is no law in requiring Mandatory OT and I know you
lawyers work only in black and white,
but by what Kevin wrote and the actual terminology Mandatory isn't
it an implication that you "have" to work overtime.
What does the Employer do if he refuse's to work overtime. If I am wrong
Please correct me, No employer can force an employee to work overtime, does
not the word Mandatory reflect that is what this individual is doing.
I'm sure it is not illegal until he acts upon it, even though the
intimidation is there.

I know that State laws are all different and other than knowing where
Florida is I know nothing of that state,
but there are some state's that would take the implication alone of this
employer and come down rather harshly.

And even though I cannot quote the law as it is written I have had some
experience with it in several different areas of law.
I am not trying to get in a ****ing contest with you, as I said I bow to
your expertise,
But what I have learned from experience and also knowing quite few
attorney's is that lawyers know the law as it is written and nothing of the
real world where that law is supposed to either do good or regulate Society.

Employers break the law everyday, there are many ways to intimidate an
employee act on it and have nothing done to them even though they have
broken the law. It is rather simple to do.
I would be curious to know what happens with the employee's the Company that
Kevin is working for if they do not work the mandatory overtime, I hope that
Kevin will enlighten us.

By the way Bob what side do you generally represent, The employer or the
employee ????
If it is the Employer then I understand why you wanted to straighten out my
remarks.

If you represent the employee then I ask how much of a retainer would Kevin
have to pay to get you to represent him should he loose his job for not
wanting to work 70 hours a week. ??

George


"Bob Stewart" wrote in message
...
FWIW, I am an attorney who works in this area of law and want to correct
a few of George's misstatements:
1. There is nothing illegal about requiring mandatory OT so long as the
employer compensates for it as required by law. If you don't want to
work it, you can refuse.
2. Under the federal Fair Labor Standards Act ("FLSA"), an employer is
not required to pay a lawfully salaried employee additional OT
compensation after the agreed upon base number of hours.
3. Most importantly, given the work you describe, there is no way you
could lawfully be classified as a salary-exempt employee under the FLSA.
The U.S. Department of Labor or its Florida equivalent can help you.

George M. Kazaka wrote:
Kevin,
I have one word for you
Quit,
Find another Job and find it fast,
I have been in and around woodworking & business for 48 years.
I have been where your boss i, and he is in a hole and all the walls are
covered with oil
he will never get out,

I can say a hundred things and tell you a hundred storie's about your
situation and what you are seing
The main thing as i read your post is that i was wondering if you were

in
another country, Maybe Florida has some weird labor laws, but this guy

is
breaking so many Federal labor laws it is pathetic.

I see nothing wrong with him trying to hold his company together with

lack
or failing equipment as long as they do not put someone in harms way,
Neccesity is the mother of invention.

Game playing is bad everywhere in life,
Hustling cash flow is an art, one that is not taught in schools other

than
the school of hard knocks.

Nothing wrong in outsourcing its the way most companies operate nowaday.
I make a lot of my own doors, i am a custon shop and generally add that
little something that you just won't find anywhere, give me acut and

dried
raised panel door and it is cheaper for me to buy them from a door

company
that does nothing but, an average red oak raised door cost me about

10.00
per sq.ft. and the good part is i have not given up any quality.

I from what you wrote I thought that your boss was just having a rough

time
in a hard economy, I say stop your bitching a show some loyality,
This is a rough business even when times are good. But as I said this

guy is
in a hole so deep there is now way he can get out, as they say the

writing
is on the wall.

Most vendors will still ship to you if you get behind, they will ship to

you
COD and 10% of your back bill, they do not like it but they really do

not
want to see you go under and loose what you completly.
No company can make overtime mandantory, IT is criminaly illegal.
Uncle Sam says that even salaried people have to have there salary based

on
a set amount of hours and after that you get paid extra.

The other reasons are the best reason for leaving there, You are not

happy
there for one, to me if you are not happy at your job then you are not
giving it your best, and your best is what your boss deserves under any
conditions.
The other is the hours, tell your boss 120 hours a week is nothing to

what i
used to do, I was a true down and out workaholic and trust me when I say
that is just as bad as a herion addict, or an alcoholic.

Best wishes and Good Luck
George





"Kevin Wade" wrote in message
...

I have been woodworking since 1986 in large and small firms. ( 2 - 85
employees) and have been offered an "upgrade" to a salaried position
in a form where I am unsure of how bad things will get.

points without order cause I am fuzzy headed after a 13 hour day
(normal) where the last hour was the "we are not making money the last
2 months and things are getting worse" speech along with the "I invite
you to join the salaried and become one of the '5' and we will get rid
of the 'helpers' as we do 800,000.00 of work before xmass.....

1. Owner of company seems to promote a mixed message....
a. will ask "How are you doing" without stopping as he walks
by without stopping, but looks you in the eye.
b. will not allow paychecks to be handed out until 5:31 on Payday
even though payroll is for the 2dn and 3rd week back.
c. workday is 7:00 am till 5:30 6 days with hour for lunch but
whimsical overtime is mandatory (whimsical being no notice).
2. All of the salary workers (3) are appearantly unsatasfied because
they are paid less that many of the 'workers' because they are not
paid for overtime and have few if any benifits and are in fear of
losing thier positions at anytime because the boss is fickle and
irresponsible in his dealings with customers and vendors.
3. Currently the business does not seem to know if it is a door
manufacturing facility or a cabinet factory.
4. Spray Booth is a Joke..... hole cut in wall with a Borg roll around
floor fan screwed into hole and 'spraybooth' seperated by other area
with a blue tarp screwed to rafters.... and 32 foot of flourscent
lighting per 1,000 foot of space.
5. $ 150,000 edge bander and $ 20,000 scmi sliding table saw with a $
12,000 Startech assembly drilling station and 1, 9.6 volt makita drill
that works (1 battery( may be another but no one knows where)) and
then a few other tools.... mostly 5 shaper heads, sander (singlebelt
(needs help)), a couple specialty items,,, face frame table and single
had pocket hole machine.... few tools are sort og new... shopfox 'tm
bandsaw (large toy) 20'ish planer and a williams and hussey moulder
(another toy).
Big point is a few mid-high end tools and a few hand tools with a
bunch of home version tools in the middle.
6. when I started there was;
a. Owner (2 years~)
b. Designer ( 2 years ~)
c. Cad man (1 year ~)
d. Foreman~ (1.5 years)
e. Shop manager ( 6 months)
f. Apprentice (3 months)
and a handful of 1 - 2 month guys most are gone now........ within a
week of my hire there were 16 total and now there are 15 but we will
lose 6 on monday.
7. 1 month ago I was told that if I cut 6k per day of cabinetry for 5
days in a week I would get a $ 100.00 bonus..... this has not happened
but then I have not made an issue to more than 2 of the 3 that made
that offer to me.
8. Days will now go by where we have to get something out that is
promised TODAY even though 'the shop' has not seen plans for such an
item and there is no material to cot that item out of often because (I
am told "we owe that supplier money") but we will send a driver on a 6
hour trip to get material from a new vendor 3 states away that will
arrive at 4:00 PM on a friday.... "gotta be here saturday cause this
is a RUSH".
9. Front shop is no smoking but paint room / Door shop is ok to smoke
as long as you put it out when you see the boss..... so there are
several people who find a need to "run to the back" so often we are
not sure if they are comming or going at all times.
10. I believe in equal pay for work of equal value but do not see that
in place.

There is no one - two or three year plan that I can see and only a
hastly formatted green and brown bar graph to say that 'we are losing
money'

I work the numbers and see that the $ 30,000 per week with 800,000 by
years end is just not possible no way no how...


I am trying to get over how upset that I am that I am asked to become
salary when as a hourly I only get a single day off and am expected to
work all but sinday, xmass and possibly easter off (thank gawds that
is on a sunday).

how can work in a cabinet shop be measured while still straying from a
hierarchical managment structure that is fair, pays well and promotes
success and a feeling of success?

Managment has decided to outsource door and drawer fronts and just
build box's...... there does not seem to be goals (does "make money"
count?)

Strategy is offer the moon .... deliver the cabinets at 75% for the
draw and then scrabble to make up the rest when already overloaded
with all the other dramas.

I am looking for guidance on how to negociate my best working deal
cause I want to spend time with family, boat, cats, computer and not
be a zonbie from just the average 70+ workweek....... even though the
boss tells stories about his old job where he averaged 120 hour
weeks,,,


Kevin Wade
lost in Florida









  #14   Report Post  
CW
 
Posts: n/a
Default Salary-VS-Hourly $ 15.00 hr (50 hrs+) Salary with bonus??? hard decision


"Bob Stewart" wrote in message
...
FWIW, I am an attorney who works in this area of law and want to correct
a few of George's misstatements:
1. There is nothing illegal about requiring mandatory OT so long as the
employer compensates for it as required by law. If you don't want to
work it, you can refuse.



Yep, lawyer all right. In the first sentance you say that an emplyer can
mandate overtime. In the next sentance, you say it is volentary. If we
average your two statements, one would have to conclude that you really
don't know. Thank you for sharing your lack of knowledge with us. It was
totally uninformative.


  #15   Report Post  
Leon
 
Posts: n/a
Default Salary-VS-Hourly $ 15.00 hr (50 hrs+) Salary with bonus??? hard decision

Man speak with forked tong. ;~)



Yep, lawyer all right. In the first sentance you say that an emplyer can
mandate overtime. In the next sentance, you say it is volentary. If we
average your two statements, one would have to conclude that you really
don't know. Thank you for sharing your lack of knowledge with us. It was
totally uninformative.






  #16   Report Post  
Larry Jaques
 
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Default Salary-VS-Hourly $ 15.00 hr (50 hrs+) Salary with bonus??? hard decision

On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 15:24:02 GMT, "Larry C in Auburn, WA"
pixelated:

You know the situation and you know what's important to you; both are clear
in your message. Now go do what you already know you need to do.


Which is to quietly look for another job without saying a word to the
peckerhead he now works for. I just loved that "we'll dump 'em before
xmas" part.


"Kevin Wade" wrote in message
.. .

I have been woodworking since 1986 in large and small firms. ( 2 - 85


-------------------------------------------------------------
give me The Luxuries Of Life * http://www.diversify.com
i can live without the necessities * 2 Tee collections online
-------------------------------------------------------------
  #17   Report Post  
Charlie Self
 
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Default Salary-VS-Hourly $ 15.00 hr (50 hrs+) Salary with bonus??? hard decision

Larry Jaque responds:

You know the situation and you know what's important to you; both are clear
in your message. Now go do what you already know you need to do.


Which is to quietly look for another job without saying a word to the
peckerhead he now works for. I just loved that "we'll dump 'em before
xmas" part.


Yeah. Newest issue of Woodshop News has some interesting openings listed, too.

Charlie Self

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know
for sure that just ain't so."
Mark Twain














  #18   Report Post  
Rob Stokes
 
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Default Salary-VS-Hourly $ 15.00 hr (50 hrs+) Salary with bonus??? hard decision

Kevin:

All the indicators you've spelled out here aim to a business that's poorly
run, takes advantage of its employees and is holding a debt that sounds like
it's too big to get out from. Salary can be a good move, but with it should
come a promotion, additional benefits and usually a raise (when you compare
hourly rate to calculated hourly rate (annual salary/2080 hours)). If he's
offered none of this to you, I'd suggest he's simply trying to convert your
"cost" from a variable (reg time plus overtime) to a fixed (salary) cost so
that he can calculate the fine numbers as he winds things down.

That's the bad news

The good news is that if he's going under, it's because of poor management
and because somewhere there's a competitor who's doing a better job of
running the business and who is taking business away from your (existing)
shop. I'd knock on his door ASAP and see if there's room for you there. If
you wait until your existing employer sinks from sight you'll be beside the
rest of the crew who will also be looking for work. It's time too look out
for #1 ....

Good luck Kevin, I hope it all works out for you.,

Rob




"Kevin Wade" wrote in message
...

I have been woodworking since 1986 in large and small firms. ( 2 - 85
employees) and have been offered an "upgrade" to a salaried position
in a form where I am unsure of how bad things will get.

points without order cause I am fuzzy headed after a 13 hour day
(normal) where the last hour was the "we are not making money the last
2 months and things are getting worse" speech along with the "I invite
you to join the salaried and become one of the '5' and we will get rid
of the 'helpers' as we do 800,000.00 of work before xmass.....

1. Owner of company seems to promote a mixed message....
a. will ask "How are you doing" without stopping as he walks
by without stopping, but looks you in the eye.
b. will not allow paychecks to be handed out until 5:31 on Payday
even though payroll is for the 2dn and 3rd week back.
c. workday is 7:00 am till 5:30 6 days with hour for lunch but
whimsical overtime is mandatory (whimsical being no notice).
2. All of the salary workers (3) are appearantly unsatasfied because
they are paid less that many of the 'workers' because they are not
paid for overtime and have few if any benifits and are in fear of
losing thier positions at anytime because the boss is fickle and
irresponsible in his dealings with customers and vendors.
3. Currently the business does not seem to know if it is a door
manufacturing facility or a cabinet factory.
4. Spray Booth is a Joke..... hole cut in wall with a Borg roll around
floor fan screwed into hole and 'spraybooth' seperated by other area
with a blue tarp screwed to rafters.... and 32 foot of flourscent
lighting per 1,000 foot of space.
5. $ 150,000 edge bander and $ 20,000 scmi sliding table saw with a $
12,000 Startech assembly drilling station and 1, 9.6 volt makita drill
that works (1 battery( may be another but no one knows where)) and
then a few other tools.... mostly 5 shaper heads, sander (singlebelt
(needs help)), a couple specialty items,,, face frame table and single
had pocket hole machine.... few tools are sort og new... shopfox 'tm
bandsaw (large toy) 20'ish planer and a williams and hussey moulder
(another toy).
Big point is a few mid-high end tools and a few hand tools with a
bunch of home version tools in the middle.
6. when I started there was;
a. Owner (2 years~)
b. Designer ( 2 years ~)
c. Cad man (1 year ~)
d. Foreman~ (1.5 years)
e. Shop manager ( 6 months)
f. Apprentice (3 months)
and a handful of 1 - 2 month guys most are gone now........ within a
week of my hire there were 16 total and now there are 15 but we will
lose 6 on monday.
7. 1 month ago I was told that if I cut 6k per day of cabinetry for 5
days in a week I would get a $ 100.00 bonus..... this has not happened
but then I have not made an issue to more than 2 of the 3 that made
that offer to me.
8. Days will now go by where we have to get something out that is
promised TODAY even though 'the shop' has not seen plans for such an
item and there is no material to cot that item out of often because (I
am told "we owe that supplier money") but we will send a driver on a 6
hour trip to get material from a new vendor 3 states away that will
arrive at 4:00 PM on a friday.... "gotta be here saturday cause this
is a RUSH".
9. Front shop is no smoking but paint room / Door shop is ok to smoke
as long as you put it out when you see the boss..... so there are
several people who find a need to "run to the back" so often we are
not sure if they are comming or going at all times.
10. I believe in equal pay for work of equal value but do not see that
in place.

There is no one - two or three year plan that I can see and only a
hastly formatted green and brown bar graph to say that 'we are losing
money'

I work the numbers and see that the $ 30,000 per week with 800,000 by
years end is just not possible no way no how...


I am trying to get over how upset that I am that I am asked to become
salary when as a hourly I only get a single day off and am expected to
work all but sinday, xmass and possibly easter off (thank gawds that
is on a sunday).

how can work in a cabinet shop be measured while still straying from a
hierarchical managment structure that is fair, pays well and promotes
success and a feeling of success?

Managment has decided to outsource door and drawer fronts and just
build box's...... there does not seem to be goals (does "make money"
count?)

Strategy is offer the moon .... deliver the cabinets at 75% for the
draw and then scrabble to make up the rest when already overloaded
with all the other dramas.

I am looking for guidance on how to negociate my best working deal
cause I want to spend time with family, boat, cats, computer and not
be a zonbie from just the average 70+ workweek....... even though the
boss tells stories about his old job where he averaged 120 hour
weeks,,,


Kevin Wade
lost in Florida





  #19   Report Post  
CW
 
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Default Salary-VS-Hourly $ 15.00 hr (50 hrs+) Salary with bonus??? hard decision

Yes, and we'd also have to conclude that I can't spell.



"Leon" wrote in message
m...
Man speak with forked tong. ;~)



Yep, lawyer all right. In the first sentance you say that an emplyer can
mandate overtime. In the next sentance, you say it is volentary. If we
average your two statements, one would have to conclude that you really
don't know. Thank you for sharing your lack of knowledge with us. It was
totally uninformative.






  #20   Report Post  
RKP51X
 
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Default Salary-VS-Hourly $ 15.00 hr (50 hrs+) Salary with bonus??? hard decision

This thread is getting more responses than our porn troll.
The only workable solution is pretty clear.
Get out while you can. Mandatory or volentary overtime is not the issue. When
an employer expects you to work for less than your work is worth (more
production for same or less pay) you ahve become an investor in his business.
The return on this investment is going to be very small.
Start looking for another job and get out as fast as you can
Roger Poplin dba


  #21   Report Post  
 
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Default Salary-VS-Hourly $ 15.00 hr (50 hrs+) Salary with bonus??? hard decision

In article ,
George M. Kazaka wrote:


Thanks for the expert legal advice, I do respect your expertise and bow to
your Knowledge of the law.
However unless they changed and as I am not a lawyer, I cannot quote the
actual law,
but Check with the IRS on the Overtime issue Unless they changed it they can
force an employer to pay Time and Half to a salaried employee or at least
compensate the employee after a certain amount of time.
And it did not matter what the agreement is.


You, sir, "know not that of which you speak".

The law *specifically* states that "*EXEMPT* salaried persons" are _not_
any additional compensation -- either 'straight pay' or 'time and a half'
for 'extra work'. They are paid 'by the year', and _those_ *are* their
working hours.

'Non-exempt' persons, whether their wages are quoted on an hourly basis,
_or_otherwise_, are a different story.

*EVERYTHING* depends on the actual job being performed.

That said, I *can't* see ANY way the original poster could possibly be
considered an 'exempt' position, *regardless* of whether he's "being
paid" on a hourly basis, or 'salaried'.

I agree that there is no law in requiring Mandatory OT and I know you
lawyers work only in black and white,
but by what Kevin wrote and the actual terminology Mandatory isn't
it an implication that you "have" to work overtime.
What does the Employer do if he refuse's to work overtime.


You don't work the mandatory overtime, you *GET*FIRED*.
It *really* _is_ "mandatory" -- i.e. "required that you do it, if you
want to keep your job."

And you have -no- recourse with the State (or Federal) Dept of Labor people.
And you are *NOT* entitled to unemployment benefits, because you _were_
fired "for cause".

If I am wrong
Please correct me,


You *ARE* wrong.
No employer can force an employee to work overtime,


Yes, they *CAN*.
does
not the word Mandatory reflect that is what this individual is doing.


Yes it is, and it *IS* entirely legal.

I'm sure it is not illegal until he acts upon it, even though the
intimidation is there.

I know that State laws are all different and other than knowing where
Florida is I know nothing of that state,
but there are some state's that would take the implication alone of this
employer and come down rather harshly.


You're almost entirely wrong.


And even though I cannot quote the law as it is written I have had some
experience with it in several different areas of law.
I am not trying to get in a ****ing contest with you, as I said I bow to
your expertise,
But what I have learned from experience and also knowing quite few
attorney's is that lawyers know the law as it is written and nothing of the
real world where that law is supposed to either do good or regulate Society.

Employers break the law everyday, there are many ways to intimidate an
employee act on it and have nothing done to them even though they have
broken the law. It is rather simple to do.
I would be curious to know what happens with the employee's the Company that
Kevin is working for if they do not work the mandatory overtime, I hope that
Kevin will enlighten us.


He will get fired.


By the way Bob what side do you generally represent, The employer or the
employee ????
If it is the Employer then I understand why you wanted to straighten out my
remarks.

If you represent the employee then I ask how much of a retainer would Kevin
have to pay to get you to represent him should he loose his job for not
wanting to work 70 hours a week. ??


Probably -nothing-. There is *no* basis for any legal action.
If Kevin doesn't like something that is 'part of the conditions' of employment
at -that- employer, he is free to seek other employment. That *IS* the
way things work in the real world.


George


"Bob Stewart" wrote in message
...
FWIW, I am an attorney who works in this area of law and want to correct
a few of George's misstatements:
1. There is nothing illegal about requiring mandatory OT so long as the
employer compensates for it as required by law. If you don't want to
work it, you can refuse.
2. Under the federal Fair Labor Standards Act ("FLSA"), an employer is
not required to pay a lawfully salaried employee additional OT
compensation after the agreed upon base number of hours.
3. Most importantly, given the work you describe, there is no way you
could lawfully be classified as a salary-exempt employee under the FLSA.
The U.S. Department of Labor or its Florida equivalent can help you.

George M. Kazaka wrote:
Kevin,
I have one word for you
Quit,
Find another Job and find it fast,
I have been in and around woodworking & business for 48 years.
I have been where your boss i, and he is in a hole and all the walls are
covered with oil
he will never get out,

I can say a hundred things and tell you a hundred storie's about your
situation and what you are seing
The main thing as i read your post is that i was wondering if you were

in
another country, Maybe Florida has some weird labor laws, but this guy

is
breaking so many Federal labor laws it is pathetic.

I see nothing wrong with him trying to hold his company together with

lack
or failing equipment as long as they do not put someone in harms way,
Neccesity is the mother of invention.

Game playing is bad everywhere in life,
Hustling cash flow is an art, one that is not taught in schools other

than
the school of hard knocks.

Nothing wrong in outsourcing its the way most companies operate nowaday.
I make a lot of my own doors, i am a custon shop and generally add that
little something that you just won't find anywhere, give me acut and

dried
raised panel door and it is cheaper for me to buy them from a door

company
that does nothing but, an average red oak raised door cost me about

10.00
per sq.ft. and the good part is i have not given up any quality.

I from what you wrote I thought that your boss was just having a rough

time
in a hard economy, I say stop your bitching a show some loyality,
This is a rough business even when times are good. But as I said this

guy is
in a hole so deep there is now way he can get out, as they say the

writing
is on the wall.

Most vendors will still ship to you if you get behind, they will ship to

you
COD and 10% of your back bill, they do not like it but they really do

not
want to see you go under and loose what you completly.
No company can make overtime mandantory, IT is criminaly illegal.
Uncle Sam says that even salaried people have to have there salary based

on
a set amount of hours and after that you get paid extra.

The other reasons are the best reason for leaving there, You are not

happy
there for one, to me if you are not happy at your job then you are not
giving it your best, and your best is what your boss deserves under any
conditions.
The other is the hours, tell your boss 120 hours a week is nothing to

what i
used to do, I was a true down and out workaholic and trust me when I say
that is just as bad as a herion addict, or an alcoholic.

Best wishes and Good Luck
George





"Kevin Wade" wrote in message
...

I have been woodworking since 1986 in large and small firms. ( 2 - 85
employees) and have been offered an "upgrade" to a salaried position
in a form where I am unsure of how bad things will get.

points without order cause I am fuzzy headed after a 13 hour day
(normal) where the last hour was the "we are not making money the last
2 months and things are getting worse" speech along with the "I invite
you to join the salaried and become one of the '5' and we will get rid
of the 'helpers' as we do 800,000.00 of work before xmass.....

1. Owner of company seems to promote a mixed message....
a. will ask "How are you doing" without stopping as he walks
by without stopping, but looks you in the eye.
b. will not allow paychecks to be handed out until 5:31 on Payday
even though payroll is for the 2dn and 3rd week back.
c. workday is 7:00 am till 5:30 6 days with hour for lunch but
whimsical overtime is mandatory (whimsical being no notice).
2. All of the salary workers (3) are appearantly unsatasfied because
they are paid less that many of the 'workers' because they are not
paid for overtime and have few if any benifits and are in fear of
losing thier positions at anytime because the boss is fickle and
irresponsible in his dealings with customers and vendors.
3. Currently the business does not seem to know if it is a door
manufacturing facility or a cabinet factory.
4. Spray Booth is a Joke..... hole cut in wall with a Borg roll around
floor fan screwed into hole and 'spraybooth' seperated by other area
with a blue tarp screwed to rafters.... and 32 foot of flourscent
lighting per 1,000 foot of space.
5. $ 150,000 edge bander and $ 20,000 scmi sliding table saw with a $
12,000 Startech assembly drilling station and 1, 9.6 volt makita drill
that works (1 battery( may be another but no one knows where)) and
then a few other tools.... mostly 5 shaper heads, sander (singlebelt
(needs help)), a couple specialty items,,, face frame table and single
had pocket hole machine.... few tools are sort og new... shopfox 'tm
bandsaw (large toy) 20'ish planer and a williams and hussey moulder
(another toy).
Big point is a few mid-high end tools and a few hand tools with a
bunch of home version tools in the middle.
6. when I started there was;
a. Owner (2 years~)
b. Designer ( 2 years ~)
c. Cad man (1 year ~)
d. Foreman~ (1.5 years)
e. Shop manager ( 6 months)
f. Apprentice (3 months)
and a handful of 1 - 2 month guys most are gone now........ within a
week of my hire there were 16 total and now there are 15 but we will
lose 6 on monday.
7. 1 month ago I was told that if I cut 6k per day of cabinetry for 5
days in a week I would get a $ 100.00 bonus..... this has not happened
but then I have not made an issue to more than 2 of the 3 that made
that offer to me.
8. Days will now go by where we have to get something out that is
promised TODAY even though 'the shop' has not seen plans for such an
item and there is no material to cot that item out of often because (I
am told "we owe that supplier money") but we will send a driver on a 6
hour trip to get material from a new vendor 3 states away that will
arrive at 4:00 PM on a friday.... "gotta be here saturday cause this
is a RUSH".
9. Front shop is no smoking but paint room / Door shop is ok to smoke
as long as you put it out when you see the boss..... so there are
several people who find a need to "run to the back" so often we are
not sure if they are comming or going at all times.
10. I believe in equal pay for work of equal value but do not see that
in place.

There is no one - two or three year plan that I can see and only a
hastly formatted green and brown bar graph to say that 'we are losing
money'

I work the numbers and see that the $ 30,000 per week with 800,000 by
years end is just not possible no way no how...


I am trying to get over how upset that I am that I am asked to become
salary when as a hourly I only get a single day off and am expected to
work all but sinday, xmass and possibly easter off (thank gawds that
is on a sunday).

how can work in a cabinet shop be measured while still straying from a
hierarchical managment structure that is fair, pays well and promotes
success and a feeling of success?

Managment has decided to outsource door and drawer fronts and just
build box's...... there does not seem to be goals (does "make money"
count?)

Strategy is offer the moon .... deliver the cabinets at 75% for the
draw and then scrabble to make up the rest when already overloaded
with all the other dramas.

I am looking for guidance on how to negociate my best working deal
cause I want to spend time with family, boat, cats, computer and not
be a zonbie from just the average 70+ workweek....... even though the
boss tells stories about his old job where he averaged 120 hour
weeks,,,


Kevin Wade
lost in Florida











  #22   Report Post  
Fred the Red Shirt
 
Posts: n/a
Default Salary-VS-Hourly $ 15.00 hr (50 hrs+) Salary with bonus??? hard decision

() wrote in message link.net...
In article ,
George M. Kazaka wrote:


Thanks for the expert legal advice, I do respect your expertise and bow to
your Knowledge of the law.
However unless they changed and as I am not a lawyer, I cannot quote the
actual law,
but Check with the IRS on the Overtime issue Unless they changed it they can
force an employer to pay Time and Half to a salaried employee or at least
compensate the employee after a certain amount of time.
And it did not matter what the agreement is.


You, sir, "know not that of which you speak".

The law *specifically* states that "*EXEMPT* salaried persons" are _not_
any additional compensation -- either 'straight pay' or 'time and a half'
for 'extra work'. They are paid 'by the year', and _those_ *are* their
working hours.


You left out at least one critical word up there.

However, you are incorrect if you believe that 'exempt salaried'
people cannot be paid bonuses for additional work, or required to
work specific hours etc. 'Exempt' means simply that they are
doing work that is exempt from Federal Wage and Hour laws. There
is nothing that prohibits the company from applying all of the
FAVORABLE provisions of Federal wage and hour law to them. IF
the company applies certain unfavorable provisions, like docking
their pay for working less than 40 hours/week then the company
looses the exemption. Ditto if the company assigns them to do
more than 20 hours of nonexempt work a week and so on.


'Non-exempt' persons, whether their wages are quoted on an hourly basis,
_or_otherwise_, are a different story.


Non-exempt may be hourly or salaried.


*EVERYTHING* depends on the actual job being performed.


Indeed.


I agree that there is no law in requiring Mandatory OT and I know you
lawyers work only in black and white,
but by what Kevin wrote and the actual terminology Mandatory isn't
it an implication that you "have" to work overtime.
What does the Employer do if he refuse's to work overtime.


You don't work the mandatory overtime, you *GET*FIRED*.
It *really* _is_ "mandatory" -- i.e. "required that you do it, if you
want to keep your job."


Sure, they can fire you, but they can;t make you work.


And you have -no- recourse with the State (or Federal) Dept of Labor people.
And you are *NOT* entitled to unemployment benefits, because you _were_
fired "for cause".


Not necessarily. There are fifty states and the District of Columbia
each with their own laws and legal prececents. The Federal Labor laws
all allow states to provide workers with more favorable laws.

A person who redufes to work a 40 hour shift, or who refuses to come
to work while his wife is giving birth etc etc may have some recourse.
See an attorney for any real case.



You *ARE* wrong.
No employer can force an employee to work overtime,


Yes, they *CAN*.


No they can't. They can fire one for not working overtime but they can't
make him work. A similar argument applies to the payment of Federal
Income tax. The Feds can't make you pay, but they can take your
maoney and put you in jail.

--

FF
  #23   Report Post  
Fred the Red Shirt
 
Posts: n/a
Default Salary-VS-Hourly $ 15.00 hr (50 hrs+) Salary with bonus??? hard decision

Bob Stewart wrote in message ...
FWIW, I am an attorney who works in this area of law and want to correct
a few of George's misstatements:
1. There is nothing illegal about requiring mandatory OT so long as the
employer compensates for it as required by law. If you don't want to
work it, you can refuse.
2. Under the federal Fair Labor Standards Act ("FLSA"), an employer is
not required to pay a lawfully salaried employee additional OT
compensation after the agreed upon base number of hours.


Thanks. But a salaried employee may be exempt or non-exempt, right?
If non-exempt and required to work OT, that employee must be paid at
time-and-a-half for that OT, right? A slaried-exempt employee has
no such legal guarantee of overtime pay, right? Further, an exemption
cannot be claimed for an hourly employee, right?

3. Most importantly, given the work you describe, there is no way you
could lawfully be classified as a salary-exempt employee under the FLSA.
The U.S. Department of Labor or its Florida equivalent can help you.


Yes, but that help might get teh shop shut down entirely. That might
be a good thing to have happen before the OSHA violations result in
loss of life.

--

FF
  #24   Report Post  
Fred the Red Shirt
 
Posts: n/a
Default Salary-VS-Hourly $ 15.00 hr (50 hrs+) Salary with bonus??? hard decision

One more thing.

If you have been doing work that is classified by the US Dept of Labor
as non-exempt and you have not been paid time and a half for overtime,
they can act on your behalf to get back pay from the employer. If you
are being required by your employer to log less time than you are working,
like by being required to work befor clocking in or after clocking out
or if the employer is sheeting onthe timekeeping, then keep your own
daily journal.

It doesn't matter if you are salaried or hourly or how much you are
paid for the hours you do work. If the work you do does not qualify
for an exemption then your employer cannot calim an exemption.

This also assumes that the employer is subject to the Federal Lay
which most are.

--

FF
  #25   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default Salary-VS-Hourly $ 15.00 hr (50 hrs+) Salary with bonus??? hard decision

In article ,
Fred the Red Shirt wrote:


Bob Stewart wrote in message ...
FWIW, I am an attorney who works in this area of law and want to correct
a few of George's misstatements:
1. There is nothing illegal about requiring mandatory OT so long as the
employer compensates for it as required by law. If you don't want to
work it, you can refuse.
2. Under the federal Fair Labor Standards Act ("FLSA"), an employer is
not required to pay a lawfully salaried employee additional OT
compensation after the agreed upon base number of hours.


Thanks. But a salaried employee may be exempt or non-exempt, right?


100% correct.

If non-exempt and required to work OT, that employee must be paid at
time-and-a-half for that OT, right?


For any work over 8 hours in one day, *or* 40 hours in the week, *YES*

Example: if you put in 5 12-hour days, you're entitled to time-and-a-half
for the last 4 hours of the 1st three days, *AND* everything after the
first 4 hours on the 4th day. Thus, out of 60 hours actually worked,
you're earning 'straight time' for 28 of them, and time-and-a-half for
32 of them.

A slaried-exempt employee has
no such legal guarantee of overtime pay, right?


For an *exempt* employee, _regardless_ of how they are paid, that is correct.
An hourly exempt, however, is guaranteed the hourly rate for _all_ hours
worked.

Further, an exemption
cannot be claimed for an hourly employee, right?


Being paid hourly does -not- automatically make you 'non-exempt'. Again,
*EVERYTHING* depends on the actual job duties. *That* is what determines
whether the job is 'exempt' or not. In broad, "exempt" is management,
"professional" and/or some "technical" staff positions. Rank-and-file
"labor", including 1st-level 'supervisory' positions, is _almost_always_
the 'non-exempt' category.

If you _are_ paid hourly, there are other sections of Federal Labor law
that require that you be paid that hourly wage (at least) for *all* hours
worked. E.g., *even*if* "exempt", but paid hourly, they have to pay
"straight time", at least, for _all_ hours worked. It *IS* illegal for
them to require an 'exempt' _hourly_ employee to put in "unpaid overtime".
However, an exempt hourly employee is -not- "entitled" to time-and-a-half,
or any other 'differential' (holiday, night, week-end, etc.) for excess
work. Caveat: if employer has a practice of paying any such differentials
to _any_ such 'exempt' hourly persons, they must do the same for *all*
such exempt hourly persons.

3. Most importantly, given the work you describe, there is no way you
could lawfully be classified as a salary-exempt employee under the FLSA.
The U.S. Department of Labor or its Florida equivalent can help you.


Yes, but that help might get teh shop shut down entirely. That might
be a good thing to have happen before the OSHA violations result in
loss of life.

--

FF





  #26   Report Post  
Owen Davies
 
Posts: n/a
Default David Marks's decoration

After being away from the group for a couple of years, I have just been
poking through the last 30,000 messages or so, and was reminded of David
Marks, whose program appears in our area at an hour I try never to see on
Saturday morning. His Web site shows a lot of work spectacularly decorated
with patinated silver and copper leaf. (If this is what he does on TV, I'll
have to get up earlier, Saturday or no!) Does anyone know how he achieves
those effects? Can anyone point me to a how-to or other source of
information? I would love to be able to try this on some of my own "work."
At the moment, it would be more wasteful than gilding a pukey duck, but my
skill level pretty much has to come up eventually.

Thanks.

Owen Davies


  #27   Report Post  
Kevin Craig
 
Posts: n/a
Default Salary-VS-Hourly $ 15.00 hr (50 hrs+) Salary with bonus??? hard decision

In article . net,
wrote:

In article ,
Fred the Red Shirt wrote:

If non-exempt and required to work OT, that employee must be paid at
time-and-a-half for that OT, right?


For any work over 8 hours in one day, *or* 40 hours in the week, *YES*

Example: if you put in 5 12-hour days, you're entitled to time-and-a-half
for the last 4 hours of the 1st three days, *AND* everything after the
first 4 hours on the 4th day. Thus, out of 60 hours actually worked,
you're earning 'straight time' for 28 of them, and time-and-a-half for
32 of them.


Two situations make that statement not always true: compressed work
schedules, and flexible work schedules. Tens of thousands of nurses,
firefighters, law enforcement and prison officers, etc., are very
accustomed to work weeks other than "straight 40". There are CWS and
FWS agreements that call for "first 40" scheduling; you can work two 16
hour shifts and an 8 hour shift and be done for the week. Anything
beyond that is OT, but the 16 "additional" hours on the first two days
are *not* OT.

As to "other Kevin": bail, dude. You're on a sinking ship. I know
that $800-1200 per week is hard to give up, but it's easier to find
another job before all your co-workers are out there competing for them
too.

Kevin
  #28   Report Post  
Lawrence L'Hote
 
Posts: n/a
Default David Marks's decoration


"Owen Davies" wrote in message
. net...
After being away from the group for a couple of years, I have just been
poking through the last 30,000 messages or so, and was reminded of David
Marks, whose program appears in our area at an hour I try never to see on
Saturday morning. His Web site shows a lot of work spectacularly

decorated
with patinated silver and copper leaf. (If this is what he does on TV,

I'll
have to get up earlier, Saturday or no!) Does anyone know how he achieves
those effects? Can anyone point me to a how-to or other source of
information? I would love to be able to try this on some of my own

"work."
At the moment, it would be more wasteful than gilding a pukey duck, but my
skill level pretty much has to come up eventually.


We don't get any of his ww programming anymore on cable and I'm not sure DIY
is taping any more of his stuff. I do some metal patina stuff and broke down
and bought his gilding/patina tape he describes on his site. On the tape he
shows how he makes the patinated silver and copper. The woman he
'coauthored' with on the tape adds very little and Marks, essentially, goes
over the same processes again in more detail. It might be questionable
whether the $65 I spent was worth it..I dunno.
Larry

--
Lawrence L'Hote
Columbia, MO
http://home.mchsi.com/~larrylhote
http://home.mchsi.com/~llhote


  #29   Report Post  
Kevin Craig
 
Posts: n/a
Default David Marks's decoration

In article , Owen
Davies wrote:

After being away from the group for a couple of years, I have just been
poking through the last 30,000 messages or so, and was reminded of David
Marks, whose program appears in our area at an hour I try never to see on
Saturday morning. His Web site shows a lot of work spectacularly decorated
with patinated silver and copper leaf. (If this is what he does on TV, I'll
have to get up earlier, Saturday or no!) Does anyone know how he achieves
those effects? Can anyone point me to a how-to or other source of
information? I would love to be able to try this on some of my own "work."
At the moment, it would be more wasteful than gilding a pukey duck, but my
skill level pretty much has to come up eventually.


You must be seeing him on HGTV. He's on 8 times a week on DIY network.
While the network is mostly worthless as far as other woodworking
programs go, David Marks is definitely a must-watch.

His show page on DIY's web site has lots of details. In at least one,
he's explained how he treats copper (gauze saturated with the
appropriate 'stuff', seal the whole thing up in a garbage bag, and
wait).

The projects on his show tend to be just a little tamer than what's on
his personal website. Here's the link to his show:

http://www.diytv.com/diy/shows_wwk/0,2044,DIY_14350,00.html

Kevin
  #30   Report Post  
Edwin Pawlowski
 
Posts: n/a
Default Salary-VS-Hourly $ 15.00 hr (50 hrs+) Salary with bonus??? hard decision


wrote in message news:y9Ckb.4148

A slaried-exempt employee has
no such legal guarantee of overtime pay, right?


For an *exempt* employee, _regardless_ of how they are paid, that is

correct.

That makes it important to pick who you work for. I'm exempt and get no OT.
When I do something a little "extra" or out of the ordinary, I do get little
treats though. There is absolutely no obligation on the part of the
company. When one of the late shift supervisors takes vacation, I'll fill in
for them. The owner will often tell me "take your wife out to dinner" or
something similar.
Ed




  #31   Report Post  
Owen Davies
 
Posts: n/a
Default David Marks's decoration

Thanks, Larry and Kevin. I was really taken with his work, but too pressed
for time to check out the program or product pages. I'll go back and see
what he offers.

Owen Davies


  #32   Report Post  
Larry Jaques
 
Posts: n/a
Default David Marks's decoration

On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:02:01 GMT, "Owen Davies"
pixelated:

After being away from the group for a couple of years, I have just been
poking through the last 30,000 messages or so, and was reminded of David
Marks, whose program appears in our area at an hour I try never to see on
Saturday morning. His Web site shows a lot of work spectacularly decorated
with patinated silver and copper leaf. (If this is what he does on TV, I'll
have to get up earlier, Saturday or no!) Does anyone know how he achieves
those effects? Can anyone point me to a how-to or other source of
information? I would love to be able to try this on some of my own "work."
At the moment, it would be more wasteful than gilding a pukey duck, but my
skill level pretty much has to come up eventually.


Don't you have a bloody VCR, dude?

If you haven't been to http://diynet.com/ , go and take a look
at their info (search for "woodworks") and links to David's site.


-------------------------------------------------------
Have you read the new book "What Would Machiavelli Do?"
----------------------------
http://diversify.com Dynamic, Interactive Websites!
--------------------------------------------------------
  #33   Report Post  
Owen Davies
 
Posts: n/a
Default David Marks's decoration

Larry Jaques reasonably asked:

Don't you have a bloody VCR, dude?


Two or three of them. Unfortunately, unlike computers, which in something
over 20 years have rarely given me trouble I couldn't handle, I have never
been able to program a VCR reliably. Half the time, I can't even get the
%&#*!!! things to record something when I'm sitting there with them, much
less on a delay.

Owen Davies


  #34   Report Post  
Leon
 
Posts: n/a
Default David Marks's decoration


"Owen Davies" wrote in message

Larry Jaques reasonably asked:

Don't you have a bloody VCR, dude?


Two or three of them. Unfortunately, unlike computers, which in something
over 20 years have rarely given me trouble I couldn't handle, I have never
been able to program a VCR reliably. Half the time, I can't even get the
%&#*!!! things to record something when I'm sitting there with them, much
less on a delay.

3

;~) LOL... Then you would not want to watch David Marks anyway as his
stuff is more complicated than a VCR.


  #35   Report Post  
Larry Jaques
 
Posts: n/a
Default David Marks's decoration

On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 03:46:45 GMT, "Owen Davies"
pixelated:

Larry Jaques reasonably asked:

Don't you have a bloody VCR, dude?


Two or three of them. Unfortunately, unlike computers, which in something
over 20 years have rarely given me trouble I couldn't handle, I have never
been able to program a VCR reliably. Half the time, I can't even get the
%&#*!!! things to record something when I'm sitting there with them, much
less on a delay.


Ah, a candidate for the Channel Plus school of programming.
Condolences, and, perhaps, let the little woman program for
you? gd&r

----
- Nice perfume. Must you marinate in it? -
http://diversify.com Web Applications


  #36   Report Post  
Owen Davies
 
Posts: n/a
Default David Marks's decoration (now somewhat OT)

Leon courteously, but erroneously, wrote:

;~) LOL... Then you would not want to watch David Marks anyway as his
stuff is more complicated than a VCR.


WADR, if it's made of wood, it can't be more complicated than a VCR.

Actually, for me not much is. In years now long past, I repaired my Vector
Graphics System B with circuit diagrams, a chip handbook, and a soldering
iron (absent-mindedly turned off my state-of-the-art Hayes 300 baud modem
before shutting down the computer); debugged RS-232 ports; and wrote my own
stock-charting program in Gee-Whiz Basic. (I also walked miles to school
uphill in both directions.) I don't know whether it's what passes for a
"user interface," the crappy manuals, or some odd blind spot in my own
mental processes, but none of those chores was as hard as getting a VCR to
work properly on the timer. (Configuring Linux did come close; next time, I
buy one of the consumer-oriented versions.) I can set them up blindfolded;
I just can't use them.

Owen Davies


  #37   Report Post  
Fred the Red Shirt
 
Posts: n/a
Default Salary-VS-Hourly $ 15.00 hr (50 hrs+) Salary with bonus??? hard decision

Kevin Craig wrote in message ...
In article . net,
wrote:

In article ,
Fred the Red Shirt wrote:

If non-exempt and required to work OT, that employee must be paid at
time-and-a-half for that OT, right?


For any work over 8 hours in one day, *or* 40 hours in the week, *YES*

Example: if you put in 5 12-hour days, you're entitled to time-and-a-half
for the last 4 hours of the 1st three days, *AND* everything after the
first 4 hours on the 4th day. Thus, out of 60 hours actually worked,
you're earning 'straight time' for 28 of them, and time-and-a-half for
32 of them.


Two situations make that statement not always true: compressed work
schedules, and flexible work schedules. Tens of thousands of nurses,
firefighters, law enforcement and prison officers, etc., are very
accustomed to work weeks other than "straight 40". There are CWS and
FWS agreements that call for "first 40" scheduling; you can work two 16
hour shifts and an 8 hour shift and be done for the week. Anything
beyond that is OT, but the 16 "additional" hours on the first two days
are *not* OT.

As to "other Kevin": bail, dude. You're on a sinking ship. I know
that $800-1200 per week is hard to give up, but it's easier to find
another job before all your co-workers are out there competing for them
too.


As a general rule a bona fide collecitve bargaining organization (usually
that's a union) is allowed to bargain away specific previsions of the
wage and hour law. Thus you do have firefighters who are on duty for
40 hours straight, folks who work 4 ten hour days instead of 5 eight hour
days and so on.

The wage and hour laws apply by default to those who are eligible and who
do not have a collective bargaining agreement in place.

--

FF
  #38   Report Post  
Larry Jaques
 
Posts: n/a
Default David Marks's decoration (now somewhat OT)

On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 16:54:57 GMT, "Owen Davies"
pixelated:

Leon courteously, but erroneously, wrote:

;~) LOL... Then you would not want to watch David Marks anyway as his
stuff is more complicated than a VCR.


WADR, if it's made of wood, it can't be more complicated than a VCR.


Then you'll have no trouble with reproducing one of
these by, say, next weekend? Um, that's design and
reproduction _without_ the kit or plans, please. It's
nothing complicated. Just cutting wood, right?
..
http://www.clockplans.com/page5.html

http://www.woodenclocks.co.uk/

http://www.cuckooclockologist.com/thomasclock.htm


P.S: Yeah, I know. That's like asking me to finish a bow
saur in less than a year.

----
- Nice perfume. Must you marinate in it? -
http://diversify.com Web Applications
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