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On Wed, 18 Feb 2009 21:15:40 -0500, "ATP*" wrote:
"Buerste" wrote
"SteveB" wrote

I admit to being a Bush fan, but on a declining basis as he neared
the end
of his term. So, I let him slide on a lot of stuff.

Today, Purple Lips said our country's electric grid was much the
same as
in Thomas Edison's day. I guess he never read about Nikola Tesla
or
alternating current.

I was in a car wash and laughed my ass off at the captioned
picture.
When my wife asked me what I was laughing about, I explained it
to her
and a couple of onlookers and they got a laugh, too.

Liberals have no use for actual facts when perpetrating an
emotional
manipulation scheme. Just forget what is right an what is wrong
and
embrace the horror they have planned for us.

Turns out it's not Obama who had the facts wrong, Tesla actually
worked for
Edison for a short time and alternating current was developed while
Edison
was still active in the electrical business.

Short form: Edison thought Tesla was a crackpot and fired him - and
when Tesla later developed practrical AC power it threatened the
Patents that Edison held and Monopoly positions he had developed in
DC
equipment and services.

Edison declared war and did his best to tear down Westinghouse and
Tesla in the media and proclaim his DC as safer. Well, you can see
where that went...

Tesla was probably a bit crazy, but it was a good crazy.

Edison wasn't an inventor as much as a Pointy Haired Boss -
Developing the lightbulb they didn't follow a systematic method of
coming up with a good filament, Edison just had all his lab
assistants
throw every material they could come up with at it, and develop the
solution by brute force elimination. And the first few "sucessful"
filaments really weren't all that good, like carbonized bamboo and
carbonized cotton thread. Tungsten came much later.

Tesla quit after he believed Edison cheated him out of a promised
bonus. But my point is that Tesla, although younger than Edison, was
a contemporary, and most of the elements of the modern distribution
system were in fairly wide use during Edison's lifetime, even before
he more or less left the business and got into mining, etc.. So to
say that Obama is stupid and must never have read about AC or Tesla
is not an informed statement.

So, then, just where IS the power grid in the condition it was during
Edison's day? I say Obama is stupid just from listening to what he
says on a lot of things.

Steve
The condition is not the problem in most cases, it's the design and
capacity of the grid. But updating it is going to take more than money,
there's a lot of NIMBY opposition:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/07/sc...th/07grid.html



Hurdles (Not Financial Ones) Await Electric Grid Update
"The Obama administration has vowed to make the grid smarter and
tougher, allocating $11 billion in grants and loan guarantees to the
task in the economic stimulus package passed by the House last week.

But it will take a lot more than money to transform the grid from a
form that served well in the last century, when electricity was
produced mostly near the point of consumption, and when the imperative
was meeting demand, no matter how high it grew.

Opposition to power lines from landowners and neighbors, local
officials or environmental groups, especially in rural areas, makes
expansion difficult - even when the money for it is available. And some
experts argue that in the absence of a broader national effort to
encourage cleaner fuels, even the smartest grid will do little to
reduce consumption of fuels that contribute to climate change.

In fact, energy experts say that simply building a better grid is not
enough, because that would make the cheap electricity that comes from
burning coal available in more parts of the country. That could squeeze
out generators that are more expensive but cleaner, like those running
on natural gas. The solution is to put a price on emissions from
dirtier fuels and incorporate that into the price of electricity, or
find some other way to limit power generation from coal, these experts
say.

The stimulus bill passed by the House includes $6.5 billion in credit
to federal agencies for building power lines, presumably in remote
areas where renewable energy sources are best placed, and $2 billion in
loan guarantees to companies for power lines and renewable energy
projects. The bill also includes $4.4 billion for the installation of
smart meters - which, administration officials say, in combination with
other investments in a smart grid, would cut energy use by 2 percent to
4 percent - and $100 million to train workers to maintain the grid.

About 527,000 miles of high-voltage transmission lines stretch across
the United States, most installed many decades ago.

Everyone agrees that more lines are needed. But some industry experts
argue that the problem of making the grid greener goes well beyond
upgrading and expanding the existing power lines. The grid, they say,
was set up primarily to draw energy from nearby plants and to provide a
steady flow of electricity to customers. It was not intended to
incorporate power from remote sources like solar panels and windmills,
whose output fluctuates with weather conditions - variability that
demands a far more flexible operation.

The experts say that the grid must therefore be designed to moderate
demand at times when there is less wind or sun available - for example,
by allowing businesses or residential customers to volunteer to let the
local utility turn down air-conditioners in office buildings or houses,
when hourly prices rise." (more on NYT site)

You missed my point entirely. Can you tell me exactly how much of the
grid constructed by Edison is still in existence and use?

Steve

I have seen some highline poles with a 1946 date tag. Go see if you can
find some pre 31 dates and report back to us when you get them counted.

You seem to be in agreement with my original question. It was simple, and
me, not knowing everything, just asked it. Clare has called me stupid,
and all I am looking for is discussion. Yes, it is true that I do not
think much of Big Lips, but history will write the final chapter to prove
us all right or wrong. I think it's going to get a whole lot worse before
it gets much better. Of course, I could be wrong, and the more perfect
ones here will prevail, and no doubt, point it out to me.

Steve
If you're looking for discussion rather than trying to act like you're so
smart and Obama's a dumbass, read up on the plan for updating the electrical
grid and comment on whether it's a good plan or not. I'd like to see some
real quantitative analysis before beefing up the grid to subsidize
uneconomic methods of producing power. Some updating/strengthening is
definitely desirable from a reliability standpoint. But crisscrossing the
country with high-tension lines to move wind power rather than conserving
electricity doesn't make much economic or environmental sense to me. We
still have a lot of high-payback conservation options which are not being
employed.