On 2008-04-09 23:42:36 +0100, "The Medway Handyman"
said:



Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-04-09 21:45:30 +0100, "The Medway Handyman"
said:



Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-04-09 19:28:49 +0100, "dennis@home"

Who said anything about going into business? There is a lot more
to a purchase than the initial outlay.

There's also your budget to consider, something you always seem to
forget - being a rich bloke I assume.

Actually not. One needs to take into account all of the factors when
considering a budget. That needs to include time taken when doing
work as well as time taken if items need to be serviced or replaced.
In other words it is the lifetime cost that matters, not just the
purchase price.

But those costs don't enter into the equation for DIY users.

Absolutely they do.


Diy
enthusiasts don't cost out their time like tradesmen have to.

Certainly they do. Time is not free.


As to
lifetime cost, thats relevant for trade users but not for DIY users.


That's also not correct.




I remember reading that the first DIY electric drills from Black & Decker
and Stanley Bidges had a motor life of an hour. The theory was that, for
example, putting up a set of shelves would involve drilling 24 holes, each
taking maybe 10 seconds to drill, or 4 mins out of a total motor life of 60
mins

For the average Barry Bucknell DIY guy that meant his drill would last him
5 - 10 years.

That's really a put down of DIY that is not justified.





Makita or Bosch are a great choice for full
time users but overkill for occcassional DIY use. Ryobi is a good
mid range price machine ideal for DIY use.

That makes no sense at all. It is assuming that because the
application is "DIY" that there is not the need for quality tools in
terms of usability, accuracy and speed of working. Time is not free
and "DIY" does not equate to an excuse for crappy tools, materials and
outcome.

You miss the point.

I'm not at all, you are.


DIY time is 'free' in the mind of a DIY enthusiast.

No it isn't.



A
reasonably priced power tool that enables a DIY guy to do a job he could not
have done without it fufills a need. It may not be as nice to use, be quite
as accurate or last as long as a top brand, but that doesn't matter.

Yes it does matter.

Step back for a moment and consider the motivations for DIY. There
are many, but I'll list a few:


a) To do work at a lower initial cash outlay than it would take to
employ professionals to do the jobs

b) To get the work done when professionals are not available either at
all or at suitable timescales or with other logistical factors

c) To achieve specific results that professionals may not be willing
or able to undertake - e.g. use of specific materials or techniques.

d) To achieve a better quality outcome than professionals are able or
willing to do.

e) To be an alternative activity to the day job.

f) As a means to learn new skills

g) As part of something more specific - e.g. woodworking, furniture
making to give one example.

This is quite a broad set of reasons and certainly goes beyond the
simple minded model of comparing the purchase of materials and tools
vs. employing a professional. Even for case (a), that is
incorrect because some material costs can be amortised over several
jobs, and the cost of tools certainly can, and even more so if they are
of good quality with long life expectancy.

The factor of time can be accounted for in many different ways as well

1) Some people may choose not to account for their personal time at
all - somewhat short sighted and ignoring the many motivations for DIY
work.

2) Others may look at the money that they can make at the day job and
if that exceeds the cost of employing a professional, then employ the
professional.

3) Yet others may take the opposite view - i.e. even though they can
make more money at the day job, choose to do the work themselves for
any or many of (b) to (g) above.

4) Where the individual chooses to spend their personal time on other
things than DIY

So one might ask why, in looking at all of the motivations for DIY and
then choosing to do work even though it's possible to make more money
at the day job that time and good quality tools are important.
The reasons for that are simple enough as well

- If my motivation to do work is because I can achieve a better result
than a professional, the use of good quality tools can influence outcome

- If it's because I choose to spend my time doing work as opposed to
employing a professional, even though the simple financial equation
suggests using the professional, I want to maximise the use of my time
to achieve the outcome. This means that I don't want to waste time
on having to return and/or rebuy tools that are of poor quality.

- If I'm motivated because I enjoy the use of good quality tools in
terms of precision, ergonomics and results, then I don't want to spoil
that through the use of inferior products that will cause frustration
in use.

Therefore, whether I choose to put a financial cost on time or a
leisure cost on it, time has a great deal of value either way, and on
both arguments one can justify the purchase of good quality tools and
materials especially if done so over a period of time.

To limit the scope of the meaning of DIY to a short term comparison of
cash outlay, and ignoring all other factors, does not present a true
picture that applies to all participants and even for people who
consider that (a) and (1) are the main motivating factors is a
disservice even to them.



Some power tools are a 'luxury' purchase for the DIY guy. A biscuit joiner
that enables him to build a one off kitchen. An SDS that means he can hang
those 4 curtain poles.

Again a sweeping generalisation. There are many reasons to purchase
a biscuit joiner, or for that matter an SDS drill. For a situation
that is a one off, there are tool rental places or one could even
employ a professional or a handyman.





Bought a Ryobi SDS t'other day as a 'clean' SDS to take into peoples
houses for lintels etc, Wickes SDS does the dirty work like light
breaking. The Ryobi is a nice solid machine that performs well and
was £40 on a Screwfix offer.

Couldn't possibly justify £100 on a second machine, can justify £40.

This is illogical as well. You are currently charging £45 as the
starting hour rate including travel. If you need to buy two of the
£40 drills in the same period of time that a £100 DeWalt or Bosch
would last, you will have spent two lots of £40 plus waste of an hour
effecting the replacement. That scenario is highly probable and as
(almost) always, buying the cheap thing is a false economy.

Not so. The Ryobi I bought is intended only for use in 'clean' areas like
fitting curtain poles in lounges with white carpets & silk wallpaper. It
will be used infrequently because the Wickes/Kress SDS does all the heavy
dirty work. I estimate it will be used 3
or 4 times a month for short periods - half a dozen holes in a lintel each
time.

My justification for buying it is based on customer service - I take my
boots off, my hop up rests on a dust sheet, I use a nice clean drill with a
nice clean cable, that doesn't look like a refugee from a building site &
doesnt leave a dirty mark on the carpet. Thats worth £40 to me as I work
regularly for a couple of up market curtain desingers. Its a 'luxury'
purchase.

A Bosch would have been better and would have been more impressive to
the designer's customers.


So, useage actually around 4 mins a month - I reckon it will outlast me.
Not dissimilar to DIY use really.

Wrong conclusion. You are assuming that DIY use equates to specific
patterns of use.


A DIY guy with his first SDS will use it
for a few hours, then it sits in the box for 6 months until the next project
starts.

You're kidding. My first significant project was the complete
repair and refurbishment of a house including structural work, complete
replacement of wiring and installation of central heating. At that
time, SDS drills were not available (Bosch invented them around 1975).
If they had been, this would have been an obvious purchase and a
good quality one a clear decision.




Horses for courses Andy.

Exactly. Equestrian sports involving courses do not consist simply
of the Grand National. One also needs to consider that there is
flat racing, dirt track, dressage, polo and so on. Therefore it is
a mistake to assume that DIY automatically equates simply to short term
apparent money saving without consideration of all factors and
motivations.



Tools that I use every day I'm willing to invest
in. Tools used occassionally as a luxury I need to justify & wait for a
special offer.

I don't look at tool purchases in terms of it being necessary to use it
every day. I tend to consider the likely number and type of
projects over the lifetime of the tool. That includes whether or not
the tool will positively affect the process of executing the projects,
outcome and time taken. If that is at all unclear, I generally
will not buy the tool. The options then are to rent a good quality
tool or potentially to employ a professional. What I will not do is to
buy some inferior product on the occasional use argument, especially if
it appears that it will negatively affect projects and their outcome or
has poor build quality.