bud-- wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:
John Ross wrote:


wrote:

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:51:35 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:


I'm adding two new outlets to my circuit breaker panel. I've got
the room
for the additional breakers in the box but the neutral bus bar has
no more
room for the neutral and ground wires required. Is it permissible
to put
more than one wire per set-screw hole on the neutral bus bar? Some
sites
I've researched say yes, others say no. If no, what are the options
besides
replacing the whole circuit breaker panel?

TIA,


You can double up or maybe even triple up GROUND wires (depending on
brand) , Neutrals are one per hole. Look at the panel label to see
about the grounds. Don't pull of any neutrals if the power is on. Bad
things can happen. Trip the main.
Certainly adding supplimental bars is a better way to go but don't put
neutrals on suplimental bars, only grounds. If you put a neutral on
the supplimental bars you are putting circuit current through the
metal can and the green bonding screw.
(that is 250.6 for you code guys)


I'm completely confused. I thought the neutral and ground bars were
bonded together. And, one of the ways of accomplishing that was a
screw to the panel.

So, in that case, wouldn't the neutral wires be connected to the
casing?

The enclosure is connected to the neutral bar (only in a service panel).


I recently had a post where I had the same set up as the OP
(everything on the neutral bar--old 1960 panel). However, there was an
unused ground bar in the panel and an electrician recently added some
new grounds to it. I was concered that I forgot to ask him if that
ground bar was bonded to the neutral. Everyone here said most likely
the neutral had a "screw" that is hard to see that connects it to the
box, and therefore they should be bonded since the ground bar is right
on the metal box. So if that is true, then there must be current
running through the metal case, which you say is wrong. Or am I
misunderstanding your point?


There should only be current on ground wires in abnormal events. It is
permissible for that current to go from ground bar, through metal
enclosure, to the bonding screw or jumper in a service panel, to the
service panel neutral bar. The return path for the ground system may
also include metal electrical wiring boxes and metal pipes with wires in
them. Ground wires land on a ground bar, or only in a service panel on
the neutral bar (the neutral and �ground� are connected together only in
a service panel).

Neutrals normally do have current on them. It is not permissible to use
any metal enclosures as part of the return path for the neutral. If a
ground bar has a direct wire connection to a neutral bar, connecting
neutral wires is still likely not permitted. The wire connection is
sized for short duration abnormal ground currents to trip a breaker, not
for long duration neutral return currents. Neutrals may land only on a
neutral bar.

bud,

Originally, gfretwell said "If you put a neutral on the supplimental
bars you are putting circuit current through the metal can and the
green bonding screw. (that is 250.6 for you code guys)"

And you said "Neutrals normally do have current on them."

OK, so let's forget about where they are "put", and look at the logic
of the end result.

If the neutral and ground bars are bonded, it would seem to me that
means they are unified, regardless of which one the wire lands on. IF
the bond takes place through a screw that touches the panel box, then
how is that not "putting current on the can?"

Not arguing. I actually learned all this stuff from you and others
here. But this is the first time it occurred to me that the neutral
current could be on the panel box because of the bonding as gfretwell
said. So I am still confused about that point (not the issue of
putting neutrals on ground bar). Can you explain why that bond (if
achieved through a screw to the box) does not put the current on the
box? I'm still confused!

--
John