"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 2007-07-01 10:32:42 +0100, ":Jerry:"
said:



Even a straw man argument can be clearly explained, it doesn't
change
the basic merit of the argument used!

Possibly not. I think that there is plenty of merit or I wouldn't
have made the point.


Obviously, otherwise you would be trolling, but it still doesn't
change the fact that much of your arguments fail into the straw man
castigatory.




snip
When I look at Kress, the alarm bells begin to ring for all of
the
reasons mentioned above. I am not commenting on whether or
not
the make a good product. Clearly they aren't in Festool's
league
or they would be competing with innovative rather than me-too
products.

Well having worked with certain tools within the Festool range
I'm
not
overly impressed, not good when each (basic range) unit cost
circa
1k
ukp *each* - one should not have bearings failing each year,
plastic
clips breaking off in use, hoses connections failing, or indeed
hoses
failing in use - true the machines are extensively used but what
do
Festool expect when selling to the commercial sector?

The basic range models do not cost circa £1k each. Drills and
sanders are in the £200-300 range. All of mine perform
excellently.

Little do you know about what Festool make then! The sanders I'm
talking about do cost from circa 1k each.

That's fine. The context was about woodworking tools that are
comparable to those of the major professional tool manufacturers.


I think it had moved on to marketing and business practice a long way
up the thread...






OTOH, they don't appear to have the resources of the major
players.
Despite comments that spares will be available for ten years,
that
is only true as long as the company remains in business. Given
the
market
snip

Well your latter point is true for all companies, if DeWalt or
Festool
went bust spares would become a problem too.

Of course. The big difference is that they have a sustainable
business model, so that is highly unlikely.


More snobbery, any business in a competitive market can go bust,
more
so if they indulge in 'own brand snobbery' and miss up and coming
competition (as has happened)...

It isn't an issue of snobbery, but of making correct business
decisions by manufacturer and customer.

Yes, and allowing a chain store to market the product as unbranded is
not always bad, the German name "Kress" is to close to 'Krass' (with
the obvious English overtones) but if the same products are introduced
as an own brand but then later 'acquire' the "Kress" label people will
associate the shape and colour with the successful own brand IYSWIM.


Creating and maintaining a brand purely on form without substance
obviously goes nowhere and it should be obvious from my comments
about functionality, accuracy, ergonomics and servicability that I
am very much talking about substance.

Which are all relative to what the tool will be asked to do, who will
be using it, how and were it will be used - someone who is up
scaffolding doesn't want a limited battery life on a coreless drill,
someone who is using the same drill for 8 hrs a day will want
something with good ergonomics and serviceability, someone drilling
holes that have to line up with a mating part will want accuracy, OTOH
someone doing a bit of DIY will probably only want functionality [1] -
that might even inclued what professionals think gimmicks (such as a
laser line, built in spirit-level or battery level LEDs). Non of the
above makes for a good or bad tool, only if they can do the *work
intended*, by the purchaser, within the *intended market* the
manufacture sold it in.

[1] it might not matter if the battery life isn't that great, they
won't be using the drill continually that they risk suffering from
blisters or the gear train over-heating and needing servicing nor that
the hole for hanging the picture is 3mm out of line to the marked
point.


Unfortunately, these are not enough. It's possible to build
perfectly good products. However, without the ability to
manufacture at the right cost point and to have the routes to
market, it goes nowhere and will ultimately fail.

Yes and DeWalt are just as capable of falling foul of that as Pro
Tools or B&D are, which is probably why they are now found in B&Q and
not jut trade outlets.

Good market communications, product marketing and channel marketing
are essential to achieve the routes to market but unfortunately cost
a lot of money.

This is why I make the point about small manufacturers in western
Europe with high cost base, inadequate marketing and little or no
product differentiation trying to compete with the big boys. It
isn't a winning proposition, no matter how good the product might
be.


Except that the largest market for these small manufacturers is within
the easiest market to enter, the DIY market, not the difficult trade
arena.