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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Mortar dye
Hi all.
The back yard paving is not far from completion. I chose indian stone and I'd like to dye the mortar between the slabs to a more attractive colour (probably brown). The pavior told me that there is a risk of staining. Is this correct? If so, how to minimize the risk? (masking tape?) Arthur |
#2
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Mortar dye
51 wrote:
Hi all. The back yard paving is not far from completion. I chose indian stone and I'd like to dye the mortar between the slabs to a more attractive colour (probably brown). The pavior told me that there is a risk of staining. Is this correct? If so, how to minimize the risk? (masking tape?) Arthur There's a risk of staining no matter which mortar you use, with or without dye...personally I wouldn't reccomend dye, because within 6 months it will have gone away to leave natural mortar...it lasts slightly longer on walls etc but on paving slabs it simply washes off, or goes green. |
#3
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Mortar dye
I've been using cement dye in lime mortar to point up around
prefinished windows (windows dark stain on meranti, lime mortar with yellow dye to match local sandstone colour). Yes, I've succesfully used masking tape on the frames to minimise staining. For the small amount of paving/tiling I've done (fire hearths), I've just used care - and yes there is a little bit of staining - but it looks right on irregular reclaimed building materials. |
#4
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Mortar dye
....personally I wouldn't reccomend dye, because within 6 months it will
have gone away to leave natural mortar...it lasts slightly longer on walls etc but on paving slabs it simply washes off, or goes green. That hasn't been my experience of using Febtone Yellow in lime mortar to repoint around windows - 1.5 winters later and it still looks just as it should. Admittedly none of mine is outside on horizonal surfaces. Agree with you though, some degree of staining - with or without dye - is pretty unavoidable. |
#6
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Mortar dye
Stuart Noble wrote:
A lot depends how sloppy the mortar is. Mortar dyes are dispersions of oxide particles so they shouldn't wash out, any more than the sand does. well, i can assure you that it does. And whats worse, it washes out streakily. Thats with black dye. Red, which is iron oxide, might be different NT |
#7
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Mortar dye
Stuart Noble wrote:
A lot depends how sloppy the mortar is. Mortar dyes are dispersions of oxide particles so they shouldn't wash out, any more than the sand does. well, i can assure you that it does. And whats worse, it washes out streakily. Thats with black dye. Red, which is iron oxide, might be different NT |
#8
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Mortar dye
Stuart Noble wrote:
A lot depends how sloppy the mortar is. Mortar dyes are dispersions of oxide particles so they shouldn't wash out, any more than the sand does. well, i can assure you that it does. And whats worse, it washes out streakily. Thats with black dye. Red, which is iron oxide, might be different NT |
#9
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Mortar dye
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#10
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Mortar dye
51 wrote:
Hi all. The back yard paving is not far from completion. I chose indian stone and I'd like to dye the mortar between the slabs to a more attractive colour (probably brown). The pavior told me that there is a risk of staining. Is this correct? If so, how to minimize the risk? (masking tape?) Arthur Hi Arthur, I've just done the very same job - 'welsh slate' cast slabs from Bowland Stone with matching dye for the mortar. I too was aware of the potential for staining and so I followed the comprehensive 'coloured mortar' case study at http://www.pavingexpert.com/point04.htm (great site in general, if a little *too* much information!). The key to minimising staining is minimising water - you need enough to hydrate the cement but too much to cause staining to the surrounding slabs. Indeed, choosing the right day was the most difficult for me - I've been taking an unnatural interest in the weather and the so-called forecasts for a couple of weeks now and finally struck lucky on Wednesday when the seemingly-endless rain finally stopped. As the case study suggests (which aligned with the instructions on my dye which was reassuring) the absolute minimum amount of water is needed... the water in the sand is pretty much sufficient alone. My dye was mixed 1 part to 20 parts cement. Whilst the dye was jet black the abundance of cement soon made it all disappear and I was left with a very-much-cement colour to this 'coloured cement'. However, when the coloured cement was mixed 1 part to 4 parts building sand the colour *really* came out and the mixture was very dark very quickly... it must've been down to the water already in the sand. In perhaps half a bucket of mortar I added a splash of water (literally that little) which had some plasticiser in it however the mixture itself was aggregating quite well and could be smoothed to a relatively smooth finish. As the case study mentions, if the slabs are dry then any spillover whilst working should not stain - I can confirm they didn't too (which was a relief). Indeed, the loose (non-compacted) mortar on the surrounding areas soon dried out thus not staining the slabs. I could see that the slabs were soaking moisture from the mortar and was worried they'd be sucking in dye too however 24 hours on I can confirm that they didn't. All-in-all I've extremely pleased with the final result - I must say it was the pointing that I was dreading the most given the 'stain' factor but in reality it wasn't a problem given the steps I followed. I've got a few photos which show some of the steps in general if they're of any interest... indeed given the pointing took me 7 hours I want as many people to see the final result as possible! Mathew |
#11
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Mortar dye
"Mathew Newton" wrote in message ups.com... I've got a few photos which show some of the steps in general if they're of any interest... indeed given the pointing took me 7 hours I want as many people to see the final result as possible! Oh go on then, I'm about to lay some black limestone for a hearth. I was going to just mix some ash in to a standard mortar mix. I'll try it first. Bung it on tinypic.com or wherever. -- Mike W |
#12
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Mortar dye
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#13
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Mortar dye
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article om, writes: Stuart Noble wrote: A lot depends how sloppy the mortar is. Mortar dyes are dispersions of oxide particles so they shouldn't wash out, any more than the sand does. well, i can assure you that it does. And whats worse, it washes out streakily. Thats with black dye. Red, which is iron oxide, might be different Well, the front of my house is lime mortar with a black die. It's nearly 100 years old and the die hasn't washed out. When I've needed to repoint a few bits, I have been unable to make my mortar dark enough, even by chucking in much more black die than you're supposed to -- it still looks grey in comparison. I do wonder what they used 100 years ago? (Soot maybe?) then it isnt dyed lime mortar, its black mortar. Dying white mortar wont give you a match, as you've found. NT |
#15
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Mortar dye
Stuart Noble wrote:
How do you make black mortar then? as lime mortar but some or all of the sand is replaced with ash. It was forbidden on many building projects as it was more prone to failure than lime mortar. In many cases it was used anyway on the non visible areas, as coal ash was something one had to pay to get rid of. If repointing patches of black mortar, the logical thing would be to use more black mortar. NT |
#16
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Mortar dye
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#17
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Mortar dye
visionset wrote:
"Mathew Newton" wrote in message ups.com... I've got a few photos which show some of the steps in general if they're of any interest... indeed given the pointing took me 7 hours I want as many people to see the final result as possible! Oh go on then, I'm about to lay some black limestone for a hearth. I was going to just mix some ash in to a standard mortar mix. I'll try it first. Bung it on tinypic.com or wherever. Sorry for the delay - been waiting for it to stop raining so I can take some 'real' pictures - these slabs change colour significantly when wet (get much darker), and indeed the mortar joints also do except they seem to take longer to dry out. Anyway, gave up waiting for it to dry out however the following should give some idea what it's like: http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/house/patio/ The smaller slabs seem to take the longest to dry out and so whilst they, and a number of the other ones, may look like they've been stained (particularly at the edges) they're actually not. Have still got a bit more to do, including rebuilding the steps (to cover the full width of the french doors) along with some gravel infill between the patio and decking (this provides drainage to a nearby drain) but as far as I'm concerned the hardest bits are done! Mathew |
#18
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Mortar dye
Mathew Newton wrote:
visionset wrote: "Mathew Newton" wrote in message ups.com... I've got a few photos which show some of the steps in general if they're of any interest... indeed given the pointing took me 7 hours I want as many people to see the final result as possible! Oh go on then, I'm about to lay some black limestone for a hearth. I was going to just mix some ash in to a standard mortar mix. I'll try it first. Bung it on tinypic.com or wherever. Sorry for the delay - been waiting for it to stop raining so I can take some 'real' pictures - these slabs change colour significantly when wet (get much darker), and indeed the mortar joints also do except they seem to take longer to dry out. Anyway, gave up waiting for it to dry out however the following should give some idea what it's like: http://www.newtonnet.co.uk/house/patio/ The smaller slabs seem to take the longest to dry out and so whilst they, and a number of the other ones, may look like they've been stained (particularly at the edges) they're actually not. Have still got a bit more to do, including rebuilding the steps (to cover the full width of the french doors) along with some gravel infill between the patio and decking (this provides drainage to a nearby drain) but as far as I'm concerned the hardest bits are done! Mathew Ummm.. you've put visqueen under the slabs? |
#19
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Mortar dye
Phil L wrote:
Ummm.. you've put visqueen under the slabs? 'Visqueen'? Are you referring to the blue tarpaulin? Nah.. that's just keeping the rain off! Unfortunately I don't have (m)any pictures of the 'main build' as I was too busy with the back breaking side of the job! Mathew |
#20
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Mortar dye
Mathew Newton wrote:
Phil L wrote: Ummm.. you've put visqueen under the slabs? 'Visqueen'? Are you referring to the blue tarpaulin? Nah.. that's just keeping the rain off! Unfortunately I don't have (m)any pictures of the 'main build' as I was too busy with the back breaking side of the job! Mathew You've done a good job of it...I always find it hard avoiding making a pattern when using random shapes like this, I end up repeating the same pattern without realising it. |
#21
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Mortar dye
Phil L wrote:
Mathew Newton wrote: Phil L wrote: Ummm.. you've put visqueen under the slabs? 'Visqueen'? Are you referring to the blue tarpaulin? Nah.. that's just keeping the rain off! Unfortunately I don't have (m)any pictures of the 'main build' as I was too busy with the back breaking side of the job! Mathew You've done a good job of it...I always find it hard avoiding making a pattern when using random shapes like this, I end up repeating the same pattern without realising it. I know what you mean! I followed the 'rules' from the pavingexpert.com site, namely never have four corners meeting and try to minimise long runs of unbroken lines. I ended up printing/cutting out the shapes in paper and laying them out on a plan - this worked well (apart from when the cat took an interest) and then it was just a case of copying it out. Even then, once I'd thought it was good to go, the guy at the builder's merchant immediately spotted a four-corner-meet - clearly I'd got to the stage where I couldn't see the woods for the trees! Of course, getting rid of that 'error' without causing another one was tricky but we managed it in the end! Mathew |
#22
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Mortar dye
In article , Stuart Noble wrote:
A lot depends how sloppy the mortar is. Mortar dyes are dispersions of oxide particles so they shouldn't wash out, any more than the sand does. That would make them "pigments", not "dyes" in most uses. For practical purposes, that equates to "inorganic and insoluble" not "organic and soluble". Brown pigment required, reasonably stable on a million-year sun-&-rain basis of testing? I'd look at variations on burnt umber, limonite and the like. Do plenty of batch testing, and specify in great detail to the supplier that you want a hydrous iron oxide and nothing else. Ask them for the chemical analysis - should be around about 60~70% (by weight) iron. Only thing I'd be a little cautions about is that I'm not sure of how umber would react to the high alkalinity of a lime mix. Like I said, batch test. -- Aidan Aberdeen, Scotland Written at Sun, 03 Dec 2006 13:43 GMT, but posted later. |
#23
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Mortar dye
In article , Andrew Gabriel
wrote: Well, the front of my house is lime mortar with a black die. It's nearly 100 years old and the die hasn't washed out. When I've needed to repoint a few bits, I have been unable to make my mortar dark enough, even by chucking in much more black die than you're supposed to -- it still looks grey in comparison. I do wonder what they used 100 years ago? (Soot maybe?) "Lamp black" is a posh name for soot, made as a pigment. 100 years ago it was a major product for making inks, paints, etc. These days people have long since realised that (1) it's a hand-made product, therefore expensive compared to vat-made dyestuffs; and (2) it contains non-carbon compounds like polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbon, which are potentially carcinogenic. So, whatever is in your modern mortar dye probably isn't "lamp black", which is pretty much the definitive "black man looking for a black cat in a coal cellar at midnight" version of "black". You might be able to still get lamp black if you specify it. Also, your 100-year-old mortar will have lost appreciable slightly-soluble salts over the century, which will still be around in your new stuff. Look at the stalactites growing down out of an old brick-and-mortar bridge - that "stal" material came out of the mortar, and is more or less white, and it's still present in your new "black" mortar. -- Aidan Aberdeen, Scotland Written at Sun, 03 Dec 2006 14:05 GMT, but posted later. |
#24
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Mortar dye
Aidan Karley wrote:
[...] So, whatever is in your modern mortar dye probably isn't "lamp black", which is pretty much the definitive "black man looking for a black cat in a coal cellar at midnight" version of "black". You might be able to still get lamp black if you specify it. The modern equivalent "carbon black" is still extensively used as a filler and pigment in plastics and rubbers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_black -- Andy |
#25
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Mortar dye
Andy Wade wrote:
Aidan Karley wrote: [...] So, whatever is in your modern mortar dye probably isn't "lamp black", which is pretty much the definitive "black man looking for a black cat in a coal cellar at midnight" version of "black". You might be able to still get lamp black if you specify it. The modern equivalent "carbon black" is still extensively used as a filler and pigment in plastics and rubbers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_black All manner of pigments are available from art suppliers if you want to get nerdy about it, but oxides are the most intense, and are widely available from BMs. |
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