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Robert Fenster
 
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Default Good Plumber or Bad Plumber?

In my basement the pressure release valve, right where the water comes in
the house, gave way. Started spraying water all over the place.

I immediately shut off the water with the cut off directly below the
pressure valve. That stopped the spray, but water was still running at
about a gallon every 10 minutes. I opened a tap in the basement and one
outside. But water was still running. Called plumber. He said that PRV
was gone, and it looked as if my shut off was gone/leaking too.

He instructed me to turn off water at the street, and he would be here
tomorrow to replace PRV and add a secondary shut off.

The next day, plumber shows up replaces PRV and adds new shutoff above the
PRV.

He then tells me there was nothing wrong with my original shutoff.

I asked him, why then did he add a new shutoff, if mine was already working,
and why did he add it above the PRV? What possible use could that server.

He told me that with the two shutoffs, I could isolate my PRV.

Is that something I would ever need to do? Did plumber do me a favor by
making my situation better, or did he sell me a $150 useless shutoff just to
make a buck?

Thanks

Bob


  #2   Report Post  
m Ransley
 
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Default Good Plumber or Bad Plumber?

His price was fair and his logic is for your benefit, im thinking. Also
he probably could have charged more and not put it in. If all is ok I
think you did good.
I had a plumber replace all pipes at the incomming main , I had 2 leaks
, Well when he finished I had 3 leaks and paid someone else again to
redo it.
Im no plumber but if you have no leaks you can now isolate it if you
have it happen again so it sounds fair.

  #3   Report Post  
Doug Kanter
 
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Default Good Plumber or Bad Plumber?

"m Ransley" wrote in message
...
His price was fair and his logic is for your benefit, im thinking. Also
he probably could have charged more and not put it in. If all is ok I
think you did good.
I had a plumber replace all pipes at the incomming main , I had 2 leaks
, Well when he finished I had 3 leaks and paid someone else again to
redo it.
Im no plumber but if you have no leaks you can now isolate it if you
have it happen again so it sounds fair.


In my experience with two good plumbers, both have taken the "overkill"
approach, which suits me just fine. Both leaks were in the cellar. In an
unfinished basement, few things are nastier than trying to clean up water
mixed with spider webs and other basement crap. I'll do anything to avoid
it.


  #4   Report Post  
DanG
 
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Default Good Plumber or Bad Plumber?

It sounds like an unnecessary valve to me.

It would be possible to have a valve on the incoming supply going
to a tee, each leg of the tee going to a valve - one to the PRV,
one to the house supply. The PRV would need another valve on the
house side that would tee back into the house supply line. This
arrangement would allow you to either send the water through the
PRV, straight to the house (this would allow you to change out the
PRV next time), or both which would not be good.

It is probably not worth the hassle or service call, but I would
think you would still want to know whether you can shut off the
water with the bottom valve. Turn it off and go watch the
triangle in your water meter, if it is moving, the valve did not
work and does not work. As long as you can shut off the water at
the street, you are serviceable. Let's hope its not needed when
the meter is covered with ice and snow.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Keep the whole world singing. . . .
DanG


"Robert Fenster" wrote in message
news:GeKuc.3322$eP.296@lakeread01...
In my basement the pressure release valve, right where the water

comes in
the house, gave way. Started spraying water all over the place.

I immediately shut off the water with the cut off directly below

the
pressure valve. That stopped the spray, but water was still

running at
about a gallon every 10 minutes. I opened a tap in the basement

and one
outside. But water was still running. Called plumber. He

said that PRV
was gone, and it looked as if my shut off was gone/leaking too.

He instructed me to turn off water at the street, and he would

be here
tomorrow to replace PRV and add a secondary shut off.

The next day, plumber shows up replaces PRV and adds new shutoff

above the
PRV.

He then tells me there was nothing wrong with my original

shutoff.

I asked him, why then did he add a new shutoff, if mine was

already working,
and why did he add it above the PRV? What possible use could

that server.

He told me that with the two shutoffs, I could isolate my PRV.

Is that something I would ever need to do? Did plumber do me a

favor by
making my situation better, or did he sell me a $150 useless

shutoff just to
make a buck?

Thanks

Bob




  #5   Report Post  
Toller
 
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Default Good Plumber or Bad Plumber?

I am confused.

You had a leaking pressure reduction (relief?) valve. You tried to turn off
the main shut off (which presumably was before the PRV?), but it did not
shut off completely.
You had the water shut off at the street.

A plumber came out. He replaced the PRV and added a new shutoff after
(above?) the PRV. He also reported the original shutoff was okay.

Is that what happened, or do I have it wrong?

I can't see much use for a shutoff after the PRV, unless there is something
unusual about your plumbing. Why did he want to be able to isolate the PRV?
(I suppose it might be easier to replace the PRV the next time because the
water wouldn't be running back from the house, but he could have asked you
if you wanted it done that way rather than just doing it; it is not
routine.)

I also can't see how he could say there was nothing wrong with your main
shutoff if you were unable to get it to work. Do you mean he fixed it
rather than replacing it, or was it just fine the way it was?

I installed a PRV last year. My main shutoff didn't work completely, so I
added a second shutoff BEFORE the new PRV so I wouldn't have to use the
original shutoff again. (soldering the new shutoff on was a challenge, but
that's a whole other issue) In my case adding a new shutoff after the PRV
would have been a waste of money because I could use faucets in the basement
to drain the system.




  #6   Report Post  
Robert Fenster
 
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Default Good Plumber or Bad Plumber?

You understand it exactly as it happened.

Apparently, what appeared as the shut off not working was still some water
in the pipes. Had I let the downstaris sink run longer, the "seeming leak
in the shut-off " would have alleviated itslef.

I do not understand how a shutoff north of the PRV is useful all. If by
turing off the main water, and running the basement sink, i could
"virtually" drain the system without a shutoff isolating the PRV.

Thanks for the feed back.


"Toller" wrote in message
...
I am confused.

You had a leaking pressure reduction (relief?) valve. You tried to turn

off
the main shut off (which presumably was before the PRV?), but it did not
shut off completely.
You had the water shut off at the street.

A plumber came out. He replaced the PRV and added a new shutoff after
(above?) the PRV. He also reported the original shutoff was okay.

Is that what happened, or do I have it wrong?

I can't see much use for a shutoff after the PRV, unless there is

something
unusual about your plumbing. Why did he want to be able to isolate the

PRV?
(I suppose it might be easier to replace the PRV the next time because the
water wouldn't be running back from the house, but he could have asked you
if you wanted it done that way rather than just doing it; it is not
routine.)

I also can't see how he could say there was nothing wrong with your main
shutoff if you were unable to get it to work. Do you mean he fixed it
rather than replacing it, or was it just fine the way it was?

I installed a PRV last year. My main shutoff didn't work completely, so I
added a second shutoff BEFORE the new PRV so I wouldn't have to use the
original shutoff again. (soldering the new shutoff on was a challenge,

but
that's a whole other issue) In my case adding a new shutoff after the PRV
would have been a waste of money because I could use faucets in the

basement
to drain the system.




  #7   Report Post  
Toller
 
Posts: n/a
Default Good Plumber or Bad Plumber?


I do not understand how a shutoff north of the PRV is useful all. If by
turing off the main water, and running the basement sink, i could
"virtually" drain the system without a shutoff isolating the PRV.

You are correct, you do not need the shutoff after the valve any more than I
did. If you didn't have the basement sink a case could be made for it.


  #8   Report Post  
John Hines
 
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Default Good Plumber or Bad Plumber?

"Robert Fenster" wrote:

You understand it exactly as it happened.

Apparently, what appeared as the shut off not working was still some water
in the pipes. Had I let the downstaris sink run longer, the "seeming leak
in the shut-off " would have alleviated itslef.

I do not understand how a shutoff north of the PRV is useful all. If by
turing off the main water, and running the basement sink, i could
"virtually" drain the system without a shutoff isolating the PRV.


It allows a plumber to maintain and/or replace the PRV in the future
without having to drain the rest of the water system. He can control
the water as it drains, rather than letting it run out on the floor, if
he needs to drain the system,

I can also see it providing you with a secondary shut off, in that you
should be able to shut off the water at either, or both valves.

Thanks for the feed back.


As others have said, not a requirement, but a nice, neater way of doing
it.

  #9   Report Post  
Edwin Pawlowski
 
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"DanG" wrote in message
news:AULuc.3929$wS2.3587@okepread03...
It sounds like an unnecessary valve to me.


Completely unnecessary. Until the old valve fails. I've seen it happen and
I have one that does not shut off properly. I'm going to install a double
vale soon, but I have to shut off at the street to do it.

Had problems at my in-laws house and could not shut off the main. Sure wish
a second valve was there.

The plumber has probably seen many examples and that is why he did what he
did.
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome



  #10   Report Post  
Toller
 
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Default Good Plumber or Bad Plumber?

Completely unnecessary. Until the old valve fails. I've seen it happen
and
I have one that does not shut off properly. I'm going to install a double
vale soon, but I have to shut off at the street to do it.

Had problems at my in-laws house and could not shut off the main. Sure

wish
a second valve was there.

The plumber has probably seen many examples and that is why he did what he
did.


Putting in a second valve is probably prudent, especially if the original
valve was a "builder's special". However it should go before the PRV, not
after it.




  #11   Report Post  
Lester
 
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Default Good Plumber or Bad Plumber?


But then again, you can sue the plumber and get filthy rich.

And all the plumbers and their electrical and hvac buddies will rush
to your house at your every call just dying for the opportunity
because they love you so much.

Les




On Mon, 31 May 2004 17:20:30 -0400, "Robert Fenster"
wrote:

You understand it exactly as it happened.

Apparently, what appeared as the shut off not working was still some water
in the pipes. Had I let the downstaris sink run longer, the "seeming leak
in the shut-off " would have alleviated itslef.

I do not understand how a shutoff north of the PRV is useful all. If by
turing off the main water, and running the basement sink, i could
"virtually" drain the system without a shutoff isolating the PRV.

Thanks for the feed back.


"Toller" wrote in message
...
I am confused.

You had a leaking pressure reduction (relief?) valve. You tried to turn

off
the main shut off (which presumably was before the PRV?), but it did not
shut off completely.
You had the water shut off at the street.

A plumber came out. He replaced the PRV and added a new shutoff after
(above?) the PRV. He also reported the original shutoff was okay.

Is that what happened, or do I have it wrong?

I can't see much use for a shutoff after the PRV, unless there is

something
unusual about your plumbing. Why did he want to be able to isolate the

PRV?
(I suppose it might be easier to replace the PRV the next time because the
water wouldn't be running back from the house, but he could have asked you
if you wanted it done that way rather than just doing it; it is not
routine.)

I also can't see how he could say there was nothing wrong with your main
shutoff if you were unable to get it to work. Do you mean he fixed it
rather than replacing it, or was it just fine the way it was?

I installed a PRV last year. My main shutoff didn't work completely, so I
added a second shutoff BEFORE the new PRV so I wouldn't have to use the
original shutoff again. (soldering the new shutoff on was a challenge,

but
that's a whole other issue) In my case adding a new shutoff after the PRV
would have been a waste of money because I could use faucets in the

basement
to drain the system.




  #12   Report Post  
xrongor
 
Posts: n/a
Default Good Plumber or Bad Plumber?


"Robert Fenster" wrote in message
news:GeKuc.3322$eP.296@lakeread01...
In my basement the pressure release valve, right where the water comes in
the house, gave way. Started spraying water all over the place.

I immediately shut off the water with the cut off directly below the
pressure valve. That stopped the spray, but water was still running at
about a gallon every 10 minutes. I opened a tap in the basement and one
outside. But water was still running. Called plumber. He said that PRV
was gone, and it looked as if my shut off was gone/leaking too.

He instructed me to turn off water at the street, and he would be here
tomorrow to replace PRV and add a secondary shut off.

The next day, plumber shows up replaces PRV and adds new shutoff above the
PRV.

He then tells me there was nothing wrong with my original shutoff.

I asked him, why then did he add a new shutoff, if mine was already

working,
and why did he add it above the PRV? What possible use could that server.

He told me that with the two shutoffs, I could isolate my PRV.

Is that something I would ever need to do? Did plumber do me a favor by
making my situation better, or did he sell me a $150 useless shutoff just

to
make a buck?


i wouldnt say the valve is useless, but if that valve cost 150$ over and
above the cost of the job without it, THAT sounds like a screw job.....

randy


  #13   Report Post  
Mike Fritz
 
Posts: n/a
Default Good Plumber or Bad Plumber?

Robert Fenster wrote:
In my basement the pressure release valve, right where the water comes in
the house, gave way. Started spraying water all over the place.

I immediately shut off the water with the cut off directly below the
pressure valve. That stopped the spray, but water was still running at
about a gallon every 10 minutes. I opened a tap in the basement and one
outside. But water was still running. Called plumber. He said that PRV
was gone, and it looked as if my shut off was gone/leaking too.

He instructed me to turn off water at the street, and he would be here
tomorrow to replace PRV and add a secondary shut off.

The next day, plumber shows up replaces PRV and adds new shutoff above the
PRV.

He then tells me there was nothing wrong with my original shutoff.

I asked him, why then did he add a new shutoff, if mine was already working,
and why did he add it above the PRV? What possible use could that server.

He told me that with the two shutoffs, I could isolate my PRV.

Is that something I would ever need to do? Did plumber do me a favor by
making my situation better, or did he sell me a $150 useless shutoff just to
make a buck?

Thanks

Bob


Bob,

It seems many people here feel that it's good to have a valve on each
side of the PRV. In fact, I think it's a great idea also. Now the
problem I have with the situation is the fact the plummer installed the
valve without your permission. He should have first sold you on the idea
of a second valve first, before installing it then charging you.
--Mike
  #14   Report Post  
NoOne N Particular
 
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Default Good Plumber or Bad Plumber?

I would wonder at what point he knew that your original valve was ok. If he
didn't find out until the job was finished and he was looking at the
original valve, that's one thing. If he knew very early on that your valve
was ok, and then didn't give you the option having him continue or not,
that's bad plumber. But I hafta say that it seems like an experienced
competent plumber most likely would have known. On the surface, it sounds
like rip to me.

Wayne


"Robert Fenster" wrote in message
news:GeKuc.3322$eP.296@lakeread01...
In my basement the pressure release valve, right where the water comes in
the house, gave way. Started spraying water all over the place.

I immediately shut off the water with the cut off directly below the
pressure valve. That stopped the spray, but water was still running at
about a gallon every 10 minutes. I opened a tap in the basement and one
outside. But water was still running. Called plumber. He said that PRV
was gone, and it looked as if my shut off was gone/leaking too.

He instructed me to turn off water at the street, and he would be here
tomorrow to replace PRV and add a secondary shut off.

The next day, plumber shows up replaces PRV and adds new shutoff above the
PRV.

He then tells me there was nothing wrong with my original shutoff.

I asked him, why then did he add a new shutoff, if mine was already

working,
and why did he add it above the PRV? What possible use could that server.

He told me that with the two shutoffs, I could isolate my PRV.

Is that something I would ever need to do? Did plumber do me a favor by
making my situation better, or did he sell me a $150 useless shutoff just

to
make a buck?

Thanks

Bob




  #15   Report Post  
xrongor
 
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Default Good Plumber or Bad Plumber?

ya the more i think about it this whole job smells of a ripoff artist.

randy

"NoOne N Particular" wrote in message
om...
I would wonder at what point he knew that your original valve was ok. If

he
didn't find out until the job was finished and he was looking at the
original valve, that's one thing. If he knew very early on that your

valve
was ok, and then didn't give you the option having him continue or not,
that's bad plumber. But I hafta say that it seems like an experienced
competent plumber most likely would have known. On the surface, it

sounds
like rip to me.

Wayne


"Robert Fenster" wrote in message
news:GeKuc.3322$eP.296@lakeread01...
In my basement the pressure release valve, right where the water comes

in
the house, gave way. Started spraying water all over the place.

I immediately shut off the water with the cut off directly below the
pressure valve. That stopped the spray, but water was still running at
about a gallon every 10 minutes. I opened a tap in the basement and one
outside. But water was still running. Called plumber. He said that

PRV
was gone, and it looked as if my shut off was gone/leaking too.

He instructed me to turn off water at the street, and he would be here
tomorrow to replace PRV and add a secondary shut off.

The next day, plumber shows up replaces PRV and adds new shutoff above

the
PRV.

He then tells me there was nothing wrong with my original shutoff.

I asked him, why then did he add a new shutoff, if mine was already

working,
and why did he add it above the PRV? What possible use could that

server.

He told me that with the two shutoffs, I could isolate my PRV.

Is that something I would ever need to do? Did plumber do me a favor by
making my situation better, or did he sell me a $150 useless shutoff

just
to
make a buck?

Thanks

Bob






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