[jamesgangnc[_3_]]

On Jun 7, 6:39*pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
Hi all

am looking for a hopefully easy to obtain, not too expensive method of
demonstrating that a receptacle is GFCI protected... *long story short.
* Am selling house, got offer. *Home inspector came through and wrote up
two receptacles as being "ungrounded" despite them actually having the
blue stickers on them that said "GFCI Protected - No Equipment Ground"
(duh) before you ask, it would be fairly difficult to pull grounds to
these boxes, otherwise I'd not be fighting. *Also there are a
approximately 5 or 6 other receps throughout the house that I haven't
grounded yet that are in a similar situation, and I don't want to open
that can of worms whereby accepting that the lack of a ground at these
receps is a fault that needs to be corrected leads to the request to
ground *everything.* *(house was built in 1948, before you ask. *I did
update a good bit of the wiring already, just not all of it. *Everything
is to the best of my knowledge code compliant at this time, and in fact
I got a permit for the rewiring I did on the 2nd floor a while back.)

SO.

I scanned the page of the NEC (2008 edition, which is what my AHJ is
using these days) addressing the replacement of ungrounded receptacles;
called the head inspector to confirm that there were no local addendums
to the code (he said no) and so I have a case, right? *I just need to
demonstrate that the receps are in fact downstream of a GFCI.

Here's where I had a moment of dumbass. *I figured I would just stop by
the Local Hardware Sellin' Emporium and get one of those plug in cube
testers - kind of like the one I already have but this time the fancy
one with the little button on the top to test a GFCI. *That should do
it, right? *Well I get it home (not the house for sale, my current
temporary residence) and plug it in to a kitchen recep, push the button,
GFCI pops. *Then I read the instructions - says it may not work on
ungrounded receps. *Of course it wouldn't - it probably just has a
resistor that the button inserts between hot and ground so that it
allows a current slightly higher than 5 mA @ 120V. *duh!

So the question is - is there a tester available that I could use to
demonstrate the principle to someone who's not really clueful about such
things that the GFCI really works? *I could use a test lead to connect
the ground pin to a faucet or something, but I have a feeling that that
wouldn't really help the case that I know what I'm talking about and did
a proper job in front of people who aren't really clueful about
electricity and have never heard of the NEC...

any ideas?

thanks

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel

It doesn't seem to me that it matters if the gfci works. The
inspector wrote the outlets up as ungrounded. They are ungrounded.
Proving the gfci works is not going to prove there is a ground, there
is not one.

You want to say that is not an issue. So just say it. If the buyers
want to use that as a negotiation point then you'll have to deal with
that.

[N8N]

On Jun 8, 10:30*am, jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jun 7, 6:39*pm, Nate Nagel wrote:





Hi all

am looking for a hopefully easy to obtain, not too expensive method of
demonstrating that a receptacle is GFCI protected... *long story short.

[[email protected][_2_]]

On Jun 8, 10:30*am, jamesgangnc wrote:
On Jun 7, 6:39*pm, Nate Nagel wrote:





Hi all

am looking for a hopefully easy to obtain, not too expensive method of
demonstrating that a receptacle is GFCI protected... *long story short.

[Bud--]

On 6/8/2011 10:09 AM, N8N wrote:
On Jun 8, 10:30 am, wrote:
On Jun 7, 6:39 pm, Nate wrote:





Hi all

am looking for a hopefully easy to obtain, not too expensive method of
demonstrating that a receptacle is GFCI protected... long story short.
Am selling house, got offer. Home inspector came through and wrote up
two receptacles as being "ungrounded" despite them actually having the
blue stickers on them that said "GFCI Protected - No Equipment Ground"
(duh) before you ask, it would be fairly difficult to pull grounds to
these boxes, otherwise I'd not be fighting. Also there are a
approximately 5 or 6 other receps throughout the house that I haven't
grounded yet that are in a similar situation, and I don't want to open
that can of worms whereby accepting that the lack of a ground at these
receps is a fault that needs to be corrected leads to the request to
ground *everything.* (house was built in 1948, before you ask. I did
update a good bit of the wiring already, just not all of it. Everything
is to the best of my knowledge code compliant at this time, and in fact
I got a permit for the rewiring I did on the 2nd floor a while back.)

SO.

I scanned the page of the NEC (2008 edition, which is what my AHJ is
using these days) addressing the replacement of ungrounded receptacles;
called the head inspector to confirm that there were no local addendums
to the code (he said no) and so I have a case, right? I just need to
demonstrate that the receps are in fact downstream of a GFCI.

Here's where I had a moment of dumbass. I figured I would just stop by
the Local Hardware Sellin' Emporium and get one of those plug in cube
testers - kind of like the one I already have but this time the fancy
one with the little button on the top to test a GFCI. That should do
it, right? Well I get it home (not the house for sale, my current
temporary residence) and plug it in to a kitchen recep, push the button,
GFCI pops. Then I read the instructions - says it may not work on
ungrounded receps. Of course it wouldn't - it probably just has a
resistor that the button inserts between hot and ground so that it
allows a current slightly higher than 5 mA @ 120V. duh!

So the question is - is there a tester available that I could use to
demonstrate the principle to someone who's not really clueful about such
things that the GFCI really works? I could use a test lead to connect
the ground pin to a faucet or something, but I have a feeling that that
wouldn't really help the case that I know what I'm talking about and did
a proper job in front of people who aren't really clueful about
electricity and have never heard of the NEC...

any ideas?

thanks

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel

It doesn't seem to me that it matters if the gfci works. The
inspector wrote the outlets up as ungrounded. They are ungrounded.
Proving the gfci works is not going to prove there is a ground, there
is not one.

You want to say that is not an issue. So just say it. If the buyers
want to use that as a negotiation point then you'll have to deal with
that.

I'm following you. Contract says that "electrical, plumbing, and
HVAC." should be in good working order or words to that effect. The
inspector's report ****ed me off because he wrote up some stuff that
we were not contractually obligated to fix (a door was replaced and
the strike didn't line up quite right, etc.) He also wrote up the
ungrounded receps and directed us to "provide ground." I have a real
problem with this because in my mind "compliant with the latest
version of the NEC" = "good working order." I'm certainly not going
to agree to "fix" them but am looking for a way to demonstrate proper
GFCI function to the satisfaction of all involved.


You could provide the 'inspector' with the relevant code section that
says that a grounded receptacle can be used downstream from a GFCI if
labeled "no ground" and "GFCI protected".

Ask the 'inspector' the basis of his report since the receptacles are
NEC compliant?

I would be real annoyed if he did not accept the NEC.

You could replace the grounded receptacles with ungrounded ones.

Are 'inspectors' licensed/registered/regulated?

--
bud--

[N8N]

On Jun 8, 11:09*am, "
wrote:
On Jun 8, 10:30*am, jamesgangnc wrote:





On Jun 7, 6:39*pm, Nate Nagel wrote:

Hi all

am looking for a hopefully easy to obtain, not too expensive method of
demonstrating that a receptacle is GFCI protected... *long story short.
* Am selling house, got offer. *Home inspector came through and wrote up
two receptacles as being "ungrounded" despite them actually having the
blue stickers on them that said "GFCI Protected - No Equipment Ground"
(duh) before you ask, it would be fairly difficult to pull grounds to
these boxes, otherwise I'd not be fighting. *Also there are a
approximately 5 or 6 other receps throughout the house that I haven't
grounded yet that are in a similar situation, and I don't want to open
that can of worms whereby accepting that the lack of a ground at these
receps is a fault that needs to be corrected leads to the request to
ground *everything.* *(house was built in 1948, before you ask. *I did
update a good bit of the wiring already, just not all of it. *Everything
is to the best of my knowledge code compliant at this time, and in fact
I got a permit for the rewiring I did on the 2nd floor a while back.)

SO.

I scanned the page of the NEC (2008 edition, which is what my AHJ is
using these days) addressing the replacement of ungrounded receptacles;
called the head inspector to confirm that there were no local addendums
to the code (he said no) and so I have a case, right? *I just need to
demonstrate that the receps are in fact downstream of a GFCI.

Here's where I had a moment of dumbass. *I figured I would just stop by
the Local Hardware Sellin' Emporium and get one of those plug in cube
testers - kind of like the one I already have but this time the fancy
one with the little button on the top to test a GFCI. *That should do
it, right? *Well I get it home (not the house for sale, my current
temporary residence) and plug it in to a kitchen recep, push the button,
GFCI pops. *Then I read the instructions - says it may not work on
ungrounded receps. *Of course it wouldn't - it probably just has a
resistor that the button inserts between hot and ground so that it
allows a current slightly higher than 5 mA @ 120V. *duh!

So the question is - is there a tester available that I could use to
demonstrate the principle to someone who's not really clueful about such
things that the GFCI really works? *I could use a test lead to connect
the ground pin to a faucet or something, but I have a feeling that that
wouldn't really help the case that I know what I'm talking about and did
a proper job in front of people who aren't really clueful about
electricity and have never heard of the NEC...

any ideas?

thanks

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel

It doesn't seem to me that it matters if the gfci works. *The
inspector wrote the outlets up as ungrounded. *They are ungrounded.
Proving the gfci works is not going to prove there is a ground, there
is not one.

You want to say that is not an issue. *So just say it. *If the buyers
want to use that as a negotiation point then you'll have to deal with
that.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Agree with the above. *From what was stated, the home inspector is
objecting to the fact that the receptacles are ungrounded. * Are they
the old two prong type, or did someone replace those with 3 prong
ones that appear to have a ground, but do not? * If they are the
2 prong type, you aren't required per NEC to make them grounded.

They're three prong type. This is one of those things that ****ed me
off when I bought the house. Turns out that probably prior to the
previous owners buying the house (because the people we bought it from
seemed like good people but weren't particularly handy,) someone of
questionable integrity replaced all the receps with grounding type
receps but instead of installing GFCIs or repulling the wire, they
jumped the ground terminal to the neutral terminal at all the
ungrounded receps thus making it appear that the house had been
properly updated. They all tested fine with the inspector's little
cube tester at our home inspection as well. When I went in to replace
a few receps that didn't hold a plug well is when I discovered the
mess... so I immediately replaced all receps in the house (figured it
was time for a change, they were all builder grade crap and
backstabbed) and installed the GFCIs. I then ended up rewiring about
half the second floor myself (I did pull a permit) a couple years ago
when I went up in the attic to replace a light fixture box with a fan
rated box in one of the bedrooms and discovered some really, really
shady wiring that had been done whenever one big bedroom was split
into two small ones. It's all correct now; the new wiring that I did
is properly grounded, and there are only two circuits with ungrounded
receps in the whole house and both of them have GFCIs at the first
position. The problem is that the inspector is saying that there is a
requirement for those two receps to be grounded whereas NEC 2008
406.3(D)(3) explicitly allows the current configuration (and the city
inspector that came out to inspect the 2nd floor work agreed -
althought they were using the previous NEC @ that time, nothing
substantially changed.)

So, long story short, the house actually appears to be "less updated"
than it was when we bought it, but is far, far safer and more correct
than it was... don'tcha hate when that happens?

If you just want to demonstrate that the GFCI works, one of the
previous posts suggested demonstrating that the upstream
GFCI trips when the test button is pressed and that the
receptacle in question goes off when it is tripped.

I guess I just don't know if that will truly make them happy. But I
guess we will find out. My concern is that if I can't convince them
that I'm right and I "admit" that the ungrounded receps are a
"problem" then they could come back and ask us to ground
*everything.* That would probably involve at least a few holes in the
walls, not to mention a lot of work, and it just offends me when
someone makes my life difficult over a made-up problem.

nate

[DerbyDad03]

On Jun 8, 11:09*am, "
wrote:
On Jun 8, 10:30*am, jamesgangnc wrote:





On Jun 7, 6:39*pm, Nate Nagel wrote:

Hi all

am looking for a hopefully easy to obtain, not too expensive method of
demonstrating that a receptacle is GFCI protected... *long story short.
* Am selling house, got offer. *Home inspector came through and wrote up
two receptacles as being "ungrounded" despite them actually having the
blue stickers on them that said "GFCI Protected - No Equipment Ground"
(duh) before you ask, it would be fairly difficult to pull grounds to
these boxes, otherwise I'd not be fighting. *Also there are a
approximately 5 or 6 other receps throughout the house that I haven't
grounded yet that are in a similar situation, and I don't want to open
that can of worms whereby accepting that the lack of a ground at these
receps is a fault that needs to be corrected leads to the request to
ground *everything.* *(house was built in 1948, before you ask. *I did
update a good bit of the wiring already, just not all of it. *Everything
is to the best of my knowledge code compliant at this time, and in fact
I got a permit for the rewiring I did on the 2nd floor a while back.)

SO.

I scanned the page of the NEC (2008 edition, which is what my AHJ is
using these days) addressing the replacement of ungrounded receptacles;
called the head inspector to confirm that there were no local addendums
to the code (he said no) and so I have a case, right? *I just need to
demonstrate that the receps are in fact downstream of a GFCI.

Here's where I had a moment of dumbass. *I figured I would just stop by
the Local Hardware Sellin' Emporium and get one of those plug in cube
testers - kind of like the one I already have but this time the fancy
one with the little button on the top to test a GFCI. *That should do
it, right? *Well I get it home (not the house for sale, my current
temporary residence) and plug it in to a kitchen recep, push the button,
GFCI pops. *Then I read the instructions - says it may not work on
ungrounded receps. *Of course it wouldn't - it probably just has a
resistor that the button inserts between hot and ground so that it
allows a current slightly higher than 5 mA @ 120V. *duh!

So the question is - is there a tester available that I could use to
demonstrate the principle to someone who's not really clueful about such
things that the GFCI really works? *I could use a test lead to connect
the ground pin to a faucet or something, but I have a feeling that that
wouldn't really help the case that I know what I'm talking about and did
a proper job in front of people who aren't really clueful about
electricity and have never heard of the NEC...

any ideas?

thanks

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel

It doesn't seem to me that it matters if the gfci works. *The
inspector wrote the outlets up as ungrounded. *They are ungrounded.
Proving the gfci works is not going to prove there is a ground, there
is not one.

You want to say that is not an issue. *So just say it. *If the buyers
want to use that as a negotiation point then you'll have to deal with
that.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Agree with the above. *From what was stated, the home inspector is
objecting to the fact that the receptacles are ungrounded. * Are they
the old two prong type, or did someone replace those with 3 prong
ones that appear to have a ground, but do not? * If they are the
2 prong type, you aren't required per NEC to make them grounded.

If you just want to demonstrate that the GFCI works, one of the
previous posts suggested demonstrating that the upstream
GFCI trips when the test button is pressed and that the
receptacle in question goes off when it is tripped.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"If they are the 2 prong type, you aren't required per NEC to make
them grounded."

You are not implying that if they are 3 prong receptacles then you are
required per NEC to make them grounded, are you?

It sort of sounds like you are implying that, but I'm sure you know
that you are not required to provide a ground if the receptacle is
GFCI protected.

[David Combs]

In article ,
DerbyDad03 wrote:

"If they are the 2 prong type, you aren't required per NEC to make
them grounded."

You are not implying that if they are 3 prong receptacles then you are
required per NEC to make them grounded, are you?

It sort of sounds like you are implying that, but I'm sure you know
that you are not required to provide a ground if the receptacle is
GFCI protected.





So, the gfci does not NEED a ground in order to work?


If yes, then would the presence of a ground make the gfci
work (a) any better and (b) would downstream be any safer?

Thanks!

David

[Smitty Two]

In article ,
(David Combs) wrote:



So, the gfci does not NEED a ground in order to work?

What, do we have to have this topic every week? No, it doesn't need a
ground. It doesn't use a ground. It looks for a difference in current
between hot and neutral.