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Location of Well Pressure Tank



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 11th 07, 01:13 PM posted to alt.home.repair
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Posts: 5
Default Location of Well Pressure Tank

I have always seen the pressure tanks for wells located where the
pipes enter the house from the well/pump. Or, on farms there is often
a pump house located real close to the well, and the pipes go from
there to the house and barns.

I have a rather unusual setup. When I bought my farm, the pipes went
to an old barn that was falling down. That barn was near the well, and
the pipes came into the lowest level of that barn, where the tank was
located. I could see they had used heat tape and heat lamps on the
pipes and tank. That barn was not salvagable and had to be
demolished. I had considered building a small shed where the pipes
and tank were located, after that barn was removed, but the seller,
and old farmer, showed me an old cistern, which is 16 feet deep, and
is only 5 feet from the 500ft. deep drilled well. He showed me a
capped pipe in there and said that at one time, he had a valve on that
pipe, and would pump that cistern full, in case there was a power
outage. He suggested that unless I wanted to fill the cistern with
water, I could just place my tank in the cistern and connect it to
that pipe.

Upon inspection, I found that cistern to be extremely solid, well
built, and almost waterproof. I ended up doing as he said. The tank
sits in the bottom of that cistern, on a few cement blocks (because
there is a little seepage), and I keep a sump pump in there so any
water that does seep in. gets pumped out. This all has worked quite
good for several years, and it never freezes in there, which saves
electricity for heat tape and heat lamps.

However, I have had one problem, being the tank tends to waterlog
quite often. This is an old galvanized non-bladder type tank, which I
an guessing is around 40 gallons. Now I know these type of tanks tend
to waterlog over time, and I have to drain it. For this setup, that
is not always the easiest. Getting into that 20" manhole with a
ladder to get to the bottom of that deep cistern is a challenge, and
in winter, the cover can freeze shut and I am not able to drain the
tank till spring. I have considered an electrical solenoid operated
valve, and that still could happen.

But my first question is this: My tank is located BELOW the level of
the pipe from the well. In other words, the pitless adaptor on the
well itself, is HIGHER than the top of the tank. Could a setup like
this cause the tank to waterlog faster, than if the tank was higher?
I know I could build a platform out of treated lumber and raise the
tank, but is this worth the trouble?

My second question is this: I have always seen pressure tanks nearest
to the well entrance pipes, but what if the tank was placed somewhere
else in the system? In my case , I have one new barn near the well.
The house is in the middle, and the pipes continue to another barn
which is where the line ends. Would it be appropriate and workable to
put the tank in the house? The house is about 150 feet from the well.
It would be much easier to drain it, and particularly access it in
cold weather. Would this work, or must the pump be as close to the
well as possible?

And lastly, what if I had TWO TANKS? In other words, keep the one in
the cistern, and put another in the house? I know that the larger the
tank, the better, especially on a farm, so would two (example) 40
gallon tanks actually be equivalant to an 80 gallon tank? I dont see
it real feasible to remove that tank from the cistern. It was tough
getting it in there. So, I could just add another tank in the house
and leave that cistern tank intact. Can two tanks be used? And what
if they are the bladder type tanks? Can two of them be used in the
same system?

Sorry for all the questions, I am just trying to learn all I can about
this so I can set this up in the most efficient and easy to maintain
manner as possible.

Thanks

Paul
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  #2  
Old March 11th 07, 03:23 PM posted to alt.home.repair
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Posts: 3,053
Default Location of Well Pressure Tank

On Mar 11, 6:13 am, wrote:
I have always seen the pressure tanks for wells located where the
pipes enter the house from the well/pump. Or, on farms there is often
a pump house located real close to the well, and the pipes go from
there to the house and barns.

I have a rather unusual setup. When I bought my farm, the pipes went
to an old barn that was falling down. That barn was near the well, and
the pipes came into the lowest level of that barn, where the tank was
located. I could see they had used heat tape and heat lamps on the
pipes and tank. That barn was not salvagable and had to be
demolished. I had considered building a small shed where the pipes
and tank were located, after that barn was removed, but the seller,
and old farmer, showed me an old cistern, which is 16 feet deep, and
is only 5 feet from the 500ft. deep drilled well. He showed me a
capped pipe in there and said that at one time, he had a valve on that
pipe, and would pump that cistern full, in case there was a power
outage. He suggested that unless I wanted to fill the cistern with
water, I could just place my tank in the cistern and connect it to
that pipe.

Upon inspection, I found that cistern to be extremely solid, well
built, and almost waterproof. I ended up doing as he said. The tank
sits in the bottom of that cistern, on a few cement blocks (because
there is a little seepage), and I keep a sump pump in there so any
water that does seep in. gets pumped out. This all has worked quite
good for several years, and it never freezes in there, which saves
electricity for heat tape and heat lamps.

However, I have had one problem, being the tank tends to waterlog
quite often. This is an old galvanized non-bladder type tank, which I
an guessing is around 40 gallons. Now I know these type of tanks tend
to waterlog over time, and I have to drain it. For this setup, that
is not always the easiest. Getting into that 20" manhole with a
ladder to get to the bottom of that deep cistern is a challenge, and
in winter, the cover can freeze shut and I am not able to drain the
tank till spring. I have considered an electrical solenoid operated
valve, and that still could happen.

But my first question is this: My tank is located BELOW the level of
the pipe from the well. In other words, the pitless adaptor on the
well itself, is HIGHER than the top of the tank. Could a setup like
this cause the tank to waterlog faster, than if the tank was higher?
I know I could build a platform out of treated lumber and raise the
tank, but is this worth the trouble?

My second question is this: I have always seen pressure tanks nearest
to the well entrance pipes, but what if the tank was placed somewhere
else in the system? In my case , I have one new barn near the well.
The house is in the middle, and the pipes continue to another barn
which is where the line ends. Would it be appropriate and workable to
put the tank in the house? The house is about 150 feet from the well.
It would be much easier to drain it, and particularly access it in
cold weather. Would this work, or must the pump be as close to the
well as possible?

And lastly, what if I had TWO TANKS? In other words, keep the one in
the cistern, and put another in the house? I know that the larger the
tank, the better, especially on a farm, so would two (example) 40
gallon tanks actually be equivalant to an 80 gallon tank? I dont see
it real feasible to remove that tank from the cistern. It was tough
getting it in there. So, I could just add another tank in the house
and leave that cistern tank intact. Can two tanks be used? And what
if they are the bladder type tanks? Can two of them be used in the
same system?

Sorry for all the questions, I am just trying to learn all I can about
this so I can set this up in the most efficient and easy to maintain
manner as possible.

Thanks

Paul


Does it matter where the tank is located? No. The static pressure
throughout the system is identical.

Is the different height of the tank/pitless causing a problem? No.
Pressure in the system is far higher than the minor pressure
difference (.46 psi/ft).

Can you use two tanks? - Yes and nothing needs done to the system to
coordinate them. They will operate in unison. Of course the system
can only have one pressure switch. In your case though, since the
tank in the cistern waterlogs, it wouldn't be long before it would
just be a tank sitting there and, in effect, you would only have the
second tank doing anything.

Some danger of the water in the cistern tank becoming stagnant as
nothing would be forcing water out of it (after it waterlogged).

Put the tank in the new barn or in the house? Put it where it is most
accessible for service and won't need frost protection. I would take
the old tank out of service (leaving it in place). Replace it with
one large tank.

Harry K

  #3  
Old March 12th 07, 04:21 PM posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,317
Default Location of Well Pressure Tank

On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 07:13:45 -0600, wrote:

I have always seen the pressure tanks for wells located where the
pipes enter the house from the well/pump. Or, on farms there is often
a pump house located real close to the well, and the pipes go from
there to the house and barns.

I have a rather unusual setup. When I bought my farm, the pipes went
to an old barn that was falling down. That barn was near the well, and
the pipes came into the lowest level of that barn, where the tank was
located. I could see they had used heat tape and heat lamps on the
pipes and tank. That barn was not salvagable and had to be
demolished. I had considered building a small shed where the pipes
and tank were located, after that barn was removed, but the seller,
and old farmer, showed me an old cistern, which is 16 feet deep, and
is only 5 feet from the 500ft. deep drilled well. He showed me a
capped pipe in there and said that at one time, he had a valve on that
pipe, and would pump that cistern full, in case there was a power
outage. He suggested that unless I wanted to fill the cistern with
water, I could just place my tank in the cistern and connect it to
that pipe.

Upon inspection, I found that cistern to be extremely solid, well
built, and almost waterproof. I ended up doing as he said. The tank
sits in the bottom of that cistern, on a few cement blocks (because
there is a little seepage), and I keep a sump pump in there so any
water that does seep in. gets pumped out. This all has worked quite
good for several years, and it never freezes in there, which saves
electricity for heat tape and heat lamps.

However, I have had one problem, being the tank tends to waterlog
quite often. This is an old galvanized non-bladder type tank, which I
an guessing is around 40 gallons. Now I know these type of tanks tend
to waterlog over time, and I have to drain it. For this setup, that
is not always the easiest. Getting into that 20" manhole with a
ladder to get to the bottom of that deep cistern is a challenge, and
in winter, the cover can freeze shut and I am not able to drain the
tank till spring. I have considered an electrical solenoid operated
valve, and that still could happen.

But my first question is this: My tank is located BELOW the level of
the pipe from the well. In other words, the pitless adaptor on the
well itself, is HIGHER than the top of the tank. Could a setup like
this cause the tank to waterlog faster, than if the tank was higher?
I know I could build a platform out of treated lumber and raise the
tank, but is this worth the trouble?

My second question is this: I have always seen pressure tanks nearest
to the well entrance pipes, but what if the tank was placed somewhere
else in the system? In my case , I have one new barn near the well.
The house is in the middle, and the pipes continue to another barn
which is where the line ends. Would it be appropriate and workable to
put the tank in the house? The house is about 150 feet from the well.
It would be much easier to drain it, and particularly access it in
cold weather. Would this work, or must the pump be as close to the
well as possible?

And lastly, what if I had TWO TANKS? In other words, keep the one in
the cistern, and put another in the house? I know that the larger the
tank, the better, especially on a farm, so would two (example) 40
gallon tanks actually be equivalant to an 80 gallon tank? I dont see
it real feasible to remove that tank from the cistern. It was tough
getting it in there. So, I could just add another tank in the house
and leave that cistern tank intact. Can two tanks be used? And what
if they are the bladder type tanks? Can two of them be used in the
same system?

Sorry for all the questions, I am just trying to learn all I can about
this so I can set this up in the most efficient and easy to maintain
manner as possible.

Thanks


I was under the impression that for a bladerless tank, you
were supposed to have a pump that pumps air into the tank
at the same time as it pumps water into it. That, of course,
only works with a surface-mounted pump.

Was it me, and this was a working farm, I'd be tempted to
take out the existing pressure tank, put a new bladder-tank
in the house, and restore the cistern to use as a cistern,
for irrigation and fire-suppression.

--Goedjn
  #4  
Old March 13th 07, 04:49 AM posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default Location of Well Pressure Tank

On Mon, 12 Mar 2007 12:21:38 -0400, Goedjn wrote:

On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 07:13:45 -0600, wrote:

I have always seen the pressure tanks for wells located where the
pipes enter the house from the well/pump. Or, on farms there is often
a pump house located real close to the well, and the pipes go from
there to the house and barns.

I have a rather unusual setup. When I bought my farm, the pipes went
to an old barn that was falling down. That barn was near the well, and
the pipes came into the lowest level of that barn, where the tank was
located. I could see they had used heat tape and heat lamps on the
pipes and tank. That barn was not salvagable and had to be
demolished. I had considered building a small shed where the pipes
and tank were located, after that barn was removed, but the seller,
and old farmer, showed me an old cistern, which is 16 feet deep, and
is only 5 feet from the 500ft. deep drilled well. He showed me a
capped pipe in there and said that at one time, he had a valve on that
pipe, and would pump that cistern full, in case there was a power
outage. He suggested that unless I wanted to fill the cistern with
water, I could just place my tank in the cistern and connect it to
that pipe.

Upon inspection, I found that cistern to be extremely solid, well
built, and almost waterproof. I ended up doing as he said. The tank
sits in the bottom of that cistern, on a few cement blocks (because
there is a little seepage), and I keep a sump pump in there so any
water that does seep in. gets pumped out. This all has worked quite
good for several years, and it never freezes in there, which saves
electricity for heat tape and heat lamps.

However, I have had one problem, being the tank tends to waterlog
quite often. This is an old galvanized non-bladder type tank, which I
an guessing is around 40 gallons. Now I know these type of tanks tend
to waterlog over time, and I have to drain it. For this setup, that
is not always the easiest. Getting into that 20" manhole with a
ladder to get to the bottom of that deep cistern is a challenge, and
in winter, the cover can freeze shut and I am not able to drain the
tank till spring. I have considered an electrical solenoid operated
valve, and that still could happen.

But my first question is this: My tank is located BELOW the level of
the pipe from the well. In other words, the pitless adaptor on the
well itself, is HIGHER than the top of the tank. Could a setup like
this cause the tank to waterlog faster, than if the tank was higher?
I know I could build a platform out of treated lumber and raise the
tank, but is this worth the trouble?

My second question is this: I have always seen pressure tanks nearest
to the well entrance pipes, but what if the tank was placed somewhere
else in the system? In my case , I have one new barn near the well.
The house is in the middle, and the pipes continue to another barn
which is where the line ends. Would it be appropriate and workable to
put the tank in the house? The house is about 150 feet from the well.
It would be much easier to drain it, and particularly access it in
cold weather. Would this work, or must the pump be as close to the
well as possible?

And lastly, what if I had TWO TANKS? In other words, keep the one in
the cistern, and put another in the house? I know that the larger the
tank, the better, especially on a farm, so would two (example) 40
gallon tanks actually be equivalant to an 80 gallon tank? I dont see
it real feasible to remove that tank from the cistern. It was tough
getting it in there. So, I could just add another tank in the house
and leave that cistern tank intact. Can two tanks be used? And what
if they are the bladder type tanks? Can two of them be used in the
same system?

Sorry for all the questions, I am just trying to learn all I can about
this so I can set this up in the most efficient and easy to maintain
manner as possible.

Thanks


I was under the impression that for a bladerless tank, you
were supposed to have a pump that pumps air into the tank
at the same time as it pumps water into it. That, of course,
only works with a surface-mounted pump.


I had heard that too, but for a submercible pump I dont believe this
is possible. That bladderless tank is the same tank that was on this
system in the old barn. They are tall tanks, so all I can assume is
that they develop an air cushion in the top, until they waterlog. I
did some inquiring about an AVC (air volume control), but again, they
dont seem to be used on submercible pumps, and being a 500ft deep
well, I cant use a shallow well pump. It seems they used these
non-bladder tanks for many years.

Was it me, and this was a working farm, I'd be tempted to
take out the existing pressure tank, put a new bladder-tank
in the house, and restore the cistern to use as a cistern,
for irrigation and fire-suppression.

--Goedjn


I was thinking the same, except I never planned to fill the cistern
again. The problem I see is that if I remove the pipes in the
cistern, I would have to run wires underground all the way to the
house for the pressure switch, and thats a long way to dig at 150 feet
or so. I *think* I could remove the tank in the cistern, and just
hook the pressure switch to the pipes down there.

The more I think about it, it seems the easiest and cheapest route
would be to just get some sort of solenoid operated valve to put on
the bottom of the tank so I dont have to climb down there to drain the
tank, and so I can drain it in winter when the cover is frozen down.
That's the biggest problem. For the last month I have not been able
to get down there because of a frozen cover and the pump was cycling
constantly when I turned on water. I could easily run some waterproof
cable to the cistern to connect to that solenoid valve, and put a
switch in my nearby garage. Then all I have to do is shut off the
pump and switch on the valve till it drains which I know takes about
10 minutes. So I'd leave it drain for a half hour (since I cant see
it), and my sump pump would remove the water from the cistern.

Now, where do I get such a valve?
A low voltage 12 or 24 volt would be preferable, but a 110v would be
ok too.

  #5  
Old March 13th 07, 02:50 PM posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,053
Default Location of Well Pressure Tank

On Mar 12, 9:49 pm, wrote:
On Mon, 12 Mar 2007 12:21:38 -0400, Goedjn wrote:


snip

I was under the impression that for a bladerless tank, you
were supposed to have a pump that pumps air into the tank
at the same time as it pumps water into it. That, of course,
only works with a surface-mounted pump.


I had heard that too, but for a submercible pump I dont believe this
is possible. That bladderless tank is the same tank that was on this
system in the old barn. They are tall tanks, so all I can assume is
that they develop an air cushion in the top, until they waterlog. I
did some inquiring about an AVC (air volume control), but again, they
dont seem to be used on submercible pumps, and being a 500ft deep
well, I cant use a shallow well pump. It seems they used these
non-bladder tanks for many years.


There are two types of AVC, a 'snifter valve' that injects a bit of
air every time the pump starts and a float valve that installs in the
side of the tank. Can't say as I understand the operation of either
one. I can see no reason that the float type at least wouldn't work.
Our community well had both and we still had problems maintaining an
air cushion.

snilp


I was thinking the same, except I never planned to fill the cistern
again. The problem I see is that if I remove the pipes in the
cistern, I would have to run wires underground all the way to the
house for the pressure switch, and thats a long way to dig at 150 feet
or so. I *think* I could remove the tank in the cistern, and just
hook the pressure switch to the pipes down there.



snip

The pressure switch does not have to be co-located with the pressure
tank. Having 150 ft from the tank _might_ cause a small lag in
turning the pump off when it reaches the cut-off but that would not be
a problem.

Harry K

 




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