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Can I hang cabinets from metal studs?
I am building some cabinets to be hung from as yet unbuilt wall.
I want to build the wall from 25 or 26 gauge steel studs (whatever they sell at Home Depot/Menards) instead of woood studs. Will screwing the cabinets into the metal studs be enough support? Brian Elfert |
"Brian Elfert" wrote in message ... I am building some cabinets to be hung from as yet unbuilt wall. I want to build the wall from 25 or 26 gauge steel studs (whatever they sell at Home Depot/Menards) instead of woood studs. Will screwing the cabinets into the metal studs be enough support? No, typically plywood is added between the studs & drywall for these applications |
Brian Elfert wrote:
I am building some cabinets to be hung from as yet unbuilt wall. I want to build the wall from 25 or 26 gauge steel studs (whatever they sell at Home Depot/Menards) instead of woood studs. Will screwing the cabinets into the metal studs be enough support? Brian Elfert Is the wall in the basement? If so then no - too much rust potential. I would _guess_ at the same issue in a kitchen. Others may have different opinions. ....Otherwise someone else can answer as I don't know. But if I were making the wall I would install cross bracing where I was going to place the wall and "make it work". Probably by making sure those studs had "hangers". -- Will Occasional Techno-geek |
www.mcfeeys.com sells cabinet hanging screws for use with steel studs
"Brian Elfert" wrote in message ... I am building some cabinets to be hung from as yet unbuilt wall. I want to build the wall from 25 or 26 gauge steel studs (whatever they sell at Home Depot/Menards) instead of woood studs. Will screwing the cabinets into the metal studs be enough support? Brian Elfert |
"Brian Elfert" wrote in message ... I am building some cabinets to be hung from as yet unbuilt wall. I want to build the wall from 25 or 26 gauge steel studs (whatever they sell at Home Depot/Menards) instead of woood studs. Will screwing the cabinets into the metal studs be enough support? Brian Elfert As others have said, no unless plywood is added where the cabinets are to hang. Why would you want steel studs? Do you live in Hawaii where termites are a significant problem? Dave Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services ---------------------------------------------------------- ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY ** ---------------------------------------------------------- http://www.usenet.com |
"Teamcasa" writes:
As others have said, no unless plywood is added where the cabinets are to hang. Why would you want steel studs? Do you live in Hawaii where termites are a significant problem? Weight. Wood studs are much heavier than steel. I'm converting a semi trailer to an RV. I plan to use 2x3 metal studs to frame walls inside of the regular trailer walls. I can then add wiring and insulation easily. the cabinets will hang on these walls. Brian Elfert |
On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:50:02 -0500, "longshot"
wrote: "Brian Elfert" wrote in message ... I am building some cabinets to be hung from as yet unbuilt wall. I want to build the wall from 25 or 26 gauge steel studs (whatever they sell at Home Depot/Menards) instead of woood studs. Will screwing the cabinets into the metal studs be enough support? No, typically plywood is added between the studs & drywall for these applications Why? If the cabinets have backs, and are screwed to the studs, why is this less reliable than screwing a piece of plywood to the same studs? |
"Brian Elfert" wrote in message ... "Teamcasa" writes: As others have said, no unless plywood is added where the cabinets are to hang. Why would you want steel studs? Do you live in Hawaii where termites are a significant problem? Weight. Wood studs are much heavier than steel. I'm converting a semi trailer to an RV. I plan to use 2x3 metal studs to frame walls inside of the regular trailer walls. I can then add wiring and insulation easily. the cabinets will hang on these walls. Considering the weight of a semi trailer, do you think that wood studs would make a noticeable difference considering every thing else that will go into the trailer. Is 14,600 pounds going to be much worse than 14,000 pounds? |
"Wes Stewart" wrote in message ... Why? If the cabinets have backs, and are screwed to the studs, why is this less reliable than screwing a piece of plywood to the same studs? Because the studs are only about 1/16" thick. The screw could easily be pulled back out compared to being screwed in to 2 or 3" of wood. |
Leon wrote:
"Wes Stewart" wrote in message ... Why? If the cabinets have backs, and are screwed to the studs, why is this less reliable than screwing a piece of plywood to the same studs? Because the studs are only about 1/16" thick. The screw could easily be pulled back out compared to being screwed in to 2 or 3" of wood. What's the plywood attached to? :) |
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Why would you want steel studs? Do you live in Hawaii where termites are
a significant problem? Weight. Wood studs are much heavier than steel. I'm converting a semi trailer to an RV. I plan to use 2x3 metal studs to frame walls inside of the regular trailer walls. I can then add wiring and insulation easily. the cabinets will hang on these walls. Brian Elfert Brian, Very interesting project. For RV use, I would consider using smaller studs, say 2" x 2". And where loads exist for cabinets and fixtures, I would inlay some plywood or 1" x 4"s for securing the cabinets. All screws eventually work loose in RVs. I would also consider not using drywall behind the cabinets and use 1/4" plywood instead. This way you will save a considerable amount of weight and be able to secure the cabinets using a French cleat system. (French cleat - a board ripped in half at 45 deg. One half of the cleat attached to the wall and the other mating half attached to the cabinet.) Dave Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services ---------------------------------------------------------- ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY ** ---------------------------------------------------------- http://www.usenet.com |
I think metal studs are only designed to carry a vertical load, by attaching
the plywood , you are spreading that load out over a 4' by 8' span -- Be cool, Longshot |
On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 17:39:36 GMT, "Leon"
wrote: "Wes Stewart" wrote in message .. . Why? If the cabinets have backs, and are screwed to the studs, why is this less reliable than screwing a piece of plywood to the same studs? Because the studs are only about 1/16" thick. The screw could easily be pulled back out compared to being screwed in to 2 or 3" of wood. Where did this "2 or 3" of wood" suddenly come from? I was commenting on the comment that said that "plywood" would be an improvement. But this very same plywood screws into the very same studs, so I fail to see an advantage. Now if you're suggesting a 2 x 3 stud inside the metal studs for a backup "nailer" then we are on the same page. That's what I would do. Pretty much like is sometimes done for door and window openings. |
In article , "longshot" wrote:
I think metal studs are only designed to carry a vertical load, by attaching the plywood , you are spreading that load out over a 4' by 8' span And using more screws to attach it. While the weight of a cabinet might be enough to pull four screws out of the metal studs, it will not pull four properly-sized screws out of plywood, nor will it be enough to pull out, say, two dozen screws holding the plywood to the studs. (Numbers picked out of the air to illustrate the point. Direct relationship to reality should not be assumed.) -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time? |
"Teamcasa" writes:
Brian, Very interesting project. For RV use, I would consider using smaller studs, say 2" x 2". And where loads exist for cabinets and fixtures, I 2x2s would probably work as that is what wood framed RVs are generally built from. The only reason for thicker studs would be for insulation. They make special electrical boxes for RVs that fit in a 2x2 wall. would inlay some plywood or 1" x 4"s for securing the cabinets. All screws eventually work loose in RVs. I would also consider not using drywall behind the cabinets and use 1/4" plywood instead. This way you will Someone else mentioned drywall. I didn't mention drywall and have plans to use it. 1/4" plywood covered with something is what I am planning to use. I'm not sure if 1/4" plywood will really hold up cabinets. Brian Elfert |
"Leon" writes:
Considering the weight of a semi trailer, do you think that wood studs would make a noticeable difference considering every thing else that will go into the trailer. Is 14,600 pounds going to be much worse than 14,000 pounds? I'm not sure I want to go with metal studs yet. I figured I needed to be sure I could attach my cabinets before choosing metal or wood studs. Wood studs would be less expensive but heavier. Brian Elfert |
Brian,
I am a carpenter and was doing the exact same thing at Montreal's City Hall. We were building a new kitchen for the blue collar works and commercial code states that metal studs are to be used because of fire code. So here is what I did. Metal studs are in a shape of a U and always face the same direction. Where you plan to put your cabinets, you need to add a piece of stud about 12" long in the opposite direction. So that the 12" stud will face the 8' stud(the U's will face eachother). Since the studs are 16" on center...you can cut a piece of 3/4" plywood 12"x15-1/2". Use 3/4" drywll screws. Do not use the self-tapping kind(silver). They will just burn the wood and will spin. But since you are turning a semi to an RV...if it will be on the road, I would use 2"x6" pine instead of plywood between the studs. It's cheap and it will hold your cabinets without a glitch. Good luck, Patrick "Brian Elfert" wrote in message ... "Teamcasa" writes: Brian, Very interesting project. For RV use, I would consider using smaller studs, say 2" x 2". And where loads exist for cabinets and fixtures, I 2x2s would probably work as that is what wood framed RVs are generally built from. The only reason for thicker studs would be for insulation. They make special electrical boxes for RVs that fit in a 2x2 wall. would inlay some plywood or 1" x 4"s for securing the cabinets. All screws eventually work loose in RVs. I would also consider not using drywall behind the cabinets and use 1/4" plywood instead. This way you will Someone else mentioned drywall. I didn't mention drywall and have plans to use it. 1/4" plywood covered with something is what I am planning to use. I'm not sure if 1/4" plywood will really hold up cabinets. Brian Elfert |
"Brian Elfert" wrote in message ... "Teamcasa" writes: Brian, Very interesting project. For RV use, I would consider using smaller studs, say 2" x 2". And where loads exist for cabinets and fixtures, I 2x2s would probably work as that is what wood framed RVs are generally built from. The only reason for thicker studs would be for insulation. They make special electrical boxes for RVs that fit in a 2x2 wall. would inlay some plywood or 1" x 4"s for securing the cabinets. All screws eventually work loose in RVs. I would also consider not using drywall behind the cabinets and use 1/4" plywood instead. This way you will Someone else mentioned drywall. I didn't mention drywall and have plans to use it. 1/4" plywood covered with something is what I am planning to use. I'm not sure if 1/4" plywood will really hold up cabinets. You're thinking of drywall, and you won't use wooden studs because of the weight? This does not compute. |
"George" george@least writes:
Someone else mentioned drywall. I didn't mention drywall and have plans to use it. 1/4" plywood covered with something is what I am planning to use. I'm not sure if 1/4" plywood will really hold up cabinets. You're thinking of drywall, and you won't use wooden studs because of the weight? This does not compute. Opps. Should say I have NO plans to use drywall. Brian Elfert |
What we do for commercial jobs is have the GC provide 6"
wide heavy gage (gauge David) coil stock wherever we need in wall blocking. This is screwed directly to the face of the stud.. You could also use horizontal steel studs bay making screw tabs on the ends. Personally I like 2 X 6's. If your studs are 16" on center cut the 2X material to 15 7/8"(ish) and notch (dado) the face of one end to clear the break (wrap) in the steel studs. Working from the notched end face screw the 2X in place through the stud and into the face of the 2X. Screw the other end through the stud and into the end of the 2X. It's as easy as eating pie. UA100 |
The short answer is No, you can't just screw to the metal studs.
They're just too thin to provide much pull-out resistance. However, with some wood blocking, this is standard construction for office and schools. Both of these environments put much greater loads and abuse on wall hung cabinets than you ever will. As one of the previous replys stated, use a reversed piece of stud and wood blocking, typically either plywood or 2X6. Cut a groove at each end on the face to fit the little lip on the studs (the part that makes it a 'C' instead of a 'U' shape) so the blocking fits up tight to the stud and doesn't distort it. Screw through the metal stud into the blocking to secure it. With plywood, screw on the face, with 2X6 you can screw through the ends. If you have a lot to do, your local lumber can mill these up by the pallet load for you. Put blocking continuously at the top and bottom of the cabinets; you and your SWMBO could both hang on them and they'll never come loose. Brian Elfert wrote: I am building some cabinets to be hung from as yet unbuilt wall. I want to build the wall from 25 or 26 gauge steel studs (whatever they sell at Home Depot/Menards) instead of woood studs. Will screwing the cabinets into the metal studs be enough support? Brian Elfert |
"Brian Elfert" wrote in message ... I am building some cabinets to be hung from as yet unbuilt wall. I want to build the wall from 25 or 26 gauge steel studs (whatever they sell at Home Depot/Menards) instead of woood studs. Will screwing the cabinets into the metal studs be enough support? Brian Elfert I would add some 2x4 backing to the inside of the metal stud where the cabinets will hang. Then when you hang the cabinets the screws will go through the stud, into the 2x4's. Greg |
Awesome!
Show us some pictures when finished. Putting some wood in the studs where cabinets will be makes sense. Wilson "Brian Elfert" wrote in message ... "Teamcasa" writes: As others have said, no unless plywood is added where the cabinets are to hang. Why would you want steel studs? Do you live in Hawaii where termites are a significant problem? Weight. Wood studs are much heavier than steel. I'm converting a semi trailer to an RV. I plan to use 2x3 metal studs to frame walls inside of the regular trailer walls. I can then add wiring and insulation easily. the cabinets will hang on these walls. Brian Elfert |
"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message ... Leon wrote: "Wes Stewart" wrote in message ... Why? If the cabinets have backs, and are screwed to the studs, why is this less reliable than screwing a piece of plywood to the same studs? Because the studs are only about 1/16" thick. The screw could easily be pulled back out compared to being screwed in to 2 or 3" of wood. What's the plywood attached to? :) The plywood is on the back side of the front face of the stud. The screws that hold the plywood go through the steel first and then into the plywood. |
"Wes Stewart" wrote in message ... On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 17:39:36 GMT, "Leon" I was commenting on the comment that said that "plywood" would be an improvement. But this very same plywood screws into the very same studs, so I fail to see an advantage. OK, steel studs are 3 sided. Think of the letter C. The Plywood is attached behind the front face of the steel stud. The screw goes through the front face of the steel stud and then into the plywood. The screw has the thickness of the plywood to get its holding power. If the screw simply went through the steel stud it would strip and pull out of the stud. Then the cavbinet screws are screwed into the plywood. |
Yep. Done about a zillion linear feet of blocking that way (at least
it seems that much. Blocking is _boring_ work). Not only can you drive a screw anywhere you want, but you know the screw won't pull out. And, the load is distributed along the whole wall. Also, scrap 2x or 3/4 ply is abundant in pieces 15 7/8" long. Regarding an earlier post, I think maybe the french cleat idea is maybe not so good, seeing as how the RV will be going over bumps and whatnot. Hope it helps. -Phil Crow |
On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 02:06:49 GMT, "Leon"
wrote: "Wes Stewart" wrote in message .. . On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 17:39:36 GMT, "Leon" I was commenting on the comment that said that "plywood" would be an improvement. But this very same plywood screws into the very same studs, so I fail to see an advantage. OK, steel studs are 3 sided. Think of the letter C. The Plywood is attached behind the front face of the steel stud. The screw goes through the front face of the steel stud and then into the plywood. The screw has the thickness of the plywood to get its holding power. If the screw simply went through the steel stud it would strip and pull out of the stud. Then the cavbinet screws are screwed into the plywood. Gotcha |
lgb wrote:
In article , says... Considering the weight of a semi trailer, do you think that wood studs would make a noticeable difference considering every thing else that will go into the trailer. Is 14,600 pounds going to be much worse than 14,000 pounds? How about wood studs only where the cabinets need to screw in? When in doubt, Build it stout! I think steel is stronger, isn't it? when I worked Demo for a summer, the steel walls where a lot harder to tear down. just one steel stud will flex and bend etc. be get two or more secured and there very secure, could be wrong, just what I remebered |
Richard Clements writes:
I think steel is stronger, isn't it? when I worked Demo for a summer, the steel walls where a lot harder to tear down. just one steel stud will flex and bend etc. be get two or more secured and there very secure, could be wrong, just what I remebered I can't imagine steel studs are stronger than wood unless you get into 20 gauge or heavier. Do they even make load bearing walls from steel studs like they do with wood studs? The fact that steel studs flex so bad is probably a sign that the studs are not very strong. I don't need strong walls for my RV. I just need walls that can hold wiring and insulation along with holding up cabinets. Brian Elfert |
Brian Elfert wrote:
Richard Clements writes: I think steel is stronger, isn't it? when I worked Demo for a summer, the steel walls where a lot harder to tear down. just one steel stud will flex and bend etc. be get two or more secured and there very secure, could be wrong, just what I remebered I can't imagine steel studs are stronger than wood unless you get into 20 gauge or heavier. Do they even make load bearing walls from steel studs like they do with wood studs? The fact that steel studs flex so bad is probably a sign that the studs are not very strong. I don't need strong walls for my RV. I just need walls that can hold wiring and insulation along with holding up cabinets. Your solution has already been posted, Brian. Take your choice: Transition to wood studs where the cabinets will be hung or, and this I think is the winner, use the 2"x6" notched to backup the steel studs. As for the strength, the metal studs which I've seen installed used construction adhesive AND screws to fasten the wallboard. Think torsion box when that job's done. The weak point is sticking those screws through that thin piece of metal and then subjecting it to the weight of the cabinet trying to pull it out. If it was merely the shear force of the cabinet trying to reach the floor you'd probably be okay but load that cabinet up and have a door that swings wide, etc. and you introduce other forces on that fastener which the steel stud may not hold all that well. Just out of curiosity, how big is this semi-trailer RV going to be? contain? You just going to haul it some place (hunting area) and park it or actually travel around pulling it with a tractor? As others have said, it's an interesting project. Hopefully you'll post some pictures as it progresses |
On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 05:18:59 GMT, Unquestionably Confused
scribbled: Brian Elfert wrote: snip I don't need strong walls for my RV. I just need walls that can hold wiring and insulation along with holding up cabinets. Your solution has already been posted, Brian. Take your choice: Transition to wood studs where the cabinets will be hung or, and this I think is the winner, use the 2"x6" notched to backup the steel studs. As for the strength, the metal studs which I've seen installed used construction adhesive AND screws to fasten the wallboard. Think torsion box when that job's done. Brian, the mention of torsion boxes gave me an idea that you might consider. When I was rebuilding the front of my camper I ended up creating a torsion box for the floor. (see: http://groups.google.ca/groups?hl=en...jacq%404ax.com Essentially milled 1"X1" (real dimension, not 3/4") cedar on 1-foot squares grid with 1/8" plywood glued on each side. It is more than sufficient to hold up my weight (250lb) on a 4'X7' floor. I don't know what the shear strength would be of this kind of construction, but note that the cupboards on my camper (late 70's) are screwed into a wall made with 3/4" lumber and they haven't moved despite having been used mostly on very rough Yukon backroads. I'll let you do the weight calculations to compare it with steel studs. You might have to make the wall thicker for the lecktrical stuff. Just an idea, but it brings the whole thing back to wooddorking. Luigi Replace "nonet" with "yukonomics" for real email address www.yukonomics.ca/wooddorking/humour.html www.yukonomics.ca/wooddorking/antifaq.html |
"Brian Elfert" wrote in message ... Richard Clements writes: Snip I can't imagine steel studs are stronger than wood unless you get into 20 gauge or heavier. Do they even make load bearing walls from steel studs like they do with wood studs? Absolutely, Builders in Houston use them to build houses. The fact that steel studs flex so bad is probably a sign that the studs are not very strong. Like 2x4 studs, they need a covering like dry wall to become rigid. |
Larry Jaques wrote: On 24 Mar 2005 18:10:22 -0800, the inscrutable spake: not so good, seeing as how the RV will be going over bumps and whatnot. Simple fix: Use upper and lower sets of cleats and affix with screws through the backs (into the bottom cleats) to hold them in place. ================================================== ====== TANSTAAFL: There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. http://diversify.com Gourmet Web Applications ========================== ah HAH! So _that's_ why we keep you around! g -Phil Crow |
On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:59:00 -0000, Brian Elfert
wrote: "Teamcasa" writes: As others have said, no unless plywood is added where the cabinets are to hang. Why would you want steel studs? Do you live in Hawaii where termites are a significant problem? Weight. Wood studs are much heavier than steel. I'm converting a semi trailer to an RV. I plan to use 2x3 metal studs to frame walls inside of the regular trailer walls. I can then add wiring and insulation easily. the cabinets will hang on these walls. Brian Elfert consider using plywood instead of drywall for the sheet goods over the studs. you'll save weight and add both strength and stiffness to the structure. then you can get an attachment you can count on for the cabinetry. build the cabinets as light as you can. lauan ply is light for it's strength, comes with a surface that is smooth enough for laminate but will likely need some prep before paint. |
On 25 Mar 2005 08:14:06 -0800, the inscrutable
spake: Larry Jaques wrote: On 24 Mar 2005 18:10:22 -0800, the inscrutable spake: not so good, seeing as how the RV will be going over bumps and whatnot. Simple fix: Use upper and lower sets of cleats and affix with screws through the backs (into the bottom cleats) to hold them in place. ah HAH! So _that's_ why we keep you around! g 2nd alternative: Use french cleats upside down on the bottom row so they make dovetails, then slide on the cabinets! Send money, not praise. ;) ================================================== ====== TANSTAAFL: There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. http://diversify.com Gourmet Web Applications ========================== |
Ba r r y writes:
Steel studs are common in commercial construction. I haven't seen a wood stud in a phone building for at least 15-20 years, regardless if the wall carries a load. Lots of these walls have counters, cabinets, etc... mounted to them. A lot of this stuff is installed as an afterthought, so the wall was not specially designed to carry the load. I'm guessing commercial construction uses 20 gauge metal studs for load bearing walls, not the 25 gauge metal studs they sell at all the home improvement centers. I was thinking about the 25 gauge studs when I was questioning if any used them for load bearing walls. Brian Elfert |
Ba r r y writes: Steel studs are common in commercial construction. I haven't seen a wood stud in a phone building for at least 15-20 years, regardless if the wall carries a load. Lots of these walls have counters, cabinets, etc... mounted to them. A lot of this stuff is installed as an afterthought, so the wall was not specially designed to carry the load. I did some web searching on this a while back, and found a number of people who claimed to be hanging cabinets from steelstuds with no problems (I don't know what guage of steel they were using). I assume the success rate would vary with the amount of weight and the number of screws (and whether you're using screws designed for steel studs). It seems to me there should be some kind of rule of thumb for weight-per-screw. The screws seem to grip pretty well. Another possible strategy is to arrange things so that something else takes the weight, and the studs just hold it upright. The OP said his walls weren't up yet, so I'd certainly add wood blocking wherever it might come in handy. For an RV, you also have to consider dynamic loads. I like the idea of a french cleat, with a peg that has to be removed before you can lift the cabinet off the cleat. |
"Ron Bean" wrote in message ... Ba r r y writes: Steel studs are common in commercial construction. I haven't seen a wood stud in a phone building for at least 15-20 years, regardless if the wall carries a load. Lots of these walls have counters, cabinets, etc... mounted to them. A lot of this stuff is installed as an afterthought, so the wall was not specially designed to carry the load. I did some web searching on this a while back, and found a number of people who claimed to be hanging cabinets from steelstuds with no problems (I don't know what guage of steel they were using). I assume the success rate would vary with the amount of weight and the number of screws (and whether you're using screws designed for steel studs). It seems to me there should be some kind of rule of thumb for weight-per-screw. The screws seem to grip pretty well. Another possible strategy is to arrange things so that something else takes the weight, and the studs just hold it upright. The OP said his walls weren't up yet, so I'd certainly add wood blocking wherever it might come in handy. For an RV, you also have to consider dynamic loads. I like the idea of a french cleat, with a peg that has to be removed before you can lift the cabinet off the cleat. 2x blocking is installed between the studs at the proper heights to act as *nailers* for the wall cabinets to be screwed to. Believe it or not the drywall adds a lot to the stability of the steel stud wall. Without the drywall you can grab ahold of the studs and twist them every which way, but once the drywall has been screwed on it acts like a drum head, tightens right up. My next house will be built with steel studs because I like the consistency of the sizing and continuity of the quality. Those two things are not possible with wood studs. |
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