Should I re-wire for 220 volts?
 

I just acquired a new 6" jointer...the Craftsman which is made by Orion. It
has a (true) 1 HP motor and comes pre-wired for 110, but can be easily
rewired for 220. My questions a

1. What is the advantage of wiring for 220 vs. 110? Different Websites say
different things...some say the motor will run cooler, some say it will run
"better" (not defined!), some say it makes no difference whatsoever.
Opinions?

2. The 220 drop in my basement is the type with two straight prongs (at an
angle) and one L-shaped. The L-shaped prong carries the neutral. (It's a
30-amp "dryer outlet.") The jointer's manual says I must connect the ground
wire to a true ground. My question is...if I connect the ground wire to a
neutral instead of a true ground, am I still properly grounding the tool?

Total newbie here, so any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Mark

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 22:58:22 -0500, "Mark Cooper"
wrote:

I just acquired a new 6" jointer...the Craftsman which is made by Orion. It
has a (true) 1 HP motor and comes pre-wired for 110, but can be easily
rewired for 220. My questions a

1. What is the advantage of wiring for 220 vs. 110? Different Websites say
different things...some say the motor will run cooler, some say it will run
"better" (not defined!), some say it makes no difference whatsoever.
Opinions?

2. The 220 drop in my basement is the type with two straight prongs (at an
angle) and one L-shaped. The L-shaped prong carries the neutral. (It's a
30-amp "dryer outlet.") The jointer's manual says I must connect the ground
wire to a true ground. My question is...if I connect the ground wire to a
neutral instead of a true ground, am I still properly grounding the tool?

Here's the way to look at it: in most dual voltage motors there are
two windings. It is possible to connect the windings either in series
or in parallel. For 120V operation, the windings are connected in
parallel; for 240V operation, the windings are connected in series.

What all of this means is related to E=IR (Ohm's Law) and the
derivative, P=IE, and the result is half the current used at 240V vs
that used at 120V--however, the power (watts) is the same. The
windings in your motor are thus always seeing 120V so no difference in
efficiency, no change in the electric bill, and no cooler running.

If you have a stiff supply (short run of adequately sized wire) it
won't make a whit of difference which voltage you run it on. If you
have a 15A run of 50 feet, you would indeed be well served by rewiring
the motor to 240V, if for no other reason than to reduce the effect of
the high current draw (and voltage drop) at startup.

Now, erase all thoughts of a "neutral" in a 240V circuit. Ain't no
such animal. There are two 120V hot leads (180° out of phase) and a
ground, and the ground is only for safety; it's not needed to make the
motor run (dryers were permitted to use the ground as a netural so
that they could use one leg of the 240V circuit for electric timers
and such, but otherwise, the 240V feed is used for the heating coils).

If the panel that feeds your "dryer outlet" is the main load center,
Bob's your uncle, as the ground and neutral are bonded in the panel
and the third wire can truly be used as a ground with no further
effort. If the panel is a sub-panel then you must make sure the third
wire is indeed connected to the ground bus.


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

You can use that 240v outlet, but I don't think it is a good idea to put a
small tool on what is probably a 40a breaker. I would replace the breaker
with a 15 or 20a and replace the outlet with an appropriate outlet. That
the wire is too big is good.

Motors drawing over 15a @ 120v should be wired to 240v. They will draw half
the amperage, so voltage drop is smaller, especially with starting. It is
not really an issue with your jointer, which is probably only 10a UNLESS you
will also be running your dust collector on the same circuit. Then you
should rewire one to 240v just to get them on separate circuits. Are you
following me, or am I too tired to be coherent? You basically want to avoid
running two tools on the same circuit (at the same time of course). If
rewiring will prevent that, then rewire.

"Mark Cooper" wrote in message
news:1110945174.a3c2fd1b1ee0dcec10c4ff2019b0490e@t eranews...
I just acquired a new 6" jointer...the Craftsman which is made by Orion.
It has a (true) 1 HP motor and comes pre-wired for 110, but can be easily
rewired for 220. My questions a

1. What is the advantage of wiring for 220 vs. 110? Different Websites
say different things...some say the motor will run cooler, some say it
will run "better" (not defined!), some say it makes no difference
whatsoever. Opinions?


Makes no difference if line voltage drop were the same.

The difference for 220V is half the conductor size with half the current
draw. In other words with the same conductor size you could run your jointer
at twice the distance with 220V.


2. The 220 drop in my basement is the type with two straight prongs (at
an angle) and one L-shaped. The L-shaped prong carries the neutral.
(It's a 30-amp "dryer outlet.") The jointer's manual says I must connect
the ground wire to a true ground. My question is...if I connect the
ground wire to a neutral instead of a true ground, am I still properly
grounding the tool?


Don't connect the jointer to the 30A circuit. Maximum breaker size 15A as
your motor is only about 8A at 220V. I would not interchange ground with
neutral although the neutral is grounded at the main panel and the motor
should run. Neutral carries current while ground does not except during a
phase to ground short circuit. There should not be a neutral in your 220V
configuration - all you require is two phase conductors and a ground unless
your Craftsman wiring setup dictates otherwise. You need a 2-pole, 3-wire
grounding plug and a matching receptacle type NEMA 6-15 - verify with your
Craftsman instruction manual.




Total newbie here, so any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Mark

Kim wrote:
Don't connect the jointer to the 30A circuit. Maximum breaker size 15A as
your motor is only about 8A at 220V. I would not interchange ground with
neutral although the neutral is grounded at the main panel and the motor
should run. Neutral carries current while ground does not except during a
phase to ground short circuit. There should not be a neutral in your 220V
configuration - all you require is two phase conductors and a ground unless
your Craftsman wiring setup dictates otherwise. You need a 2-pole, 3-wire
grounding plug and a matching receptacle type NEMA 6-15 - verify with your
Craftsman instruction manual.



I had the local power utility repair a downed power line once and they
accidentally reversed the phasing, which in turn destroyed a 15 HP 220V 3 phase
Ingersol Rand air compressor I operated at work (caused it to run backwards and
the oil pump didn't pick up oil like it should).

Now, many years later, I'm dealing with 220V single phase power at the house.
Does it make any difference which conductor goes to which blade on a 220V plug?
Obviously the ground goes to the round prong but there are the two remaining
blades: one oriented vertically; the other hortizontally.

I would hate to make a dumb mistake just because I'm trying to save a few bucks.
I'm comfortable enough with 110V but this 220V stuff was something I'd always
let the electrician do.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

In article , "toller" wrote:
You can use that 240v outlet, but I don't think it is a good idea to put a
small tool on what is probably a 40a breaker.

The breaker is for the protection of the wiring, not the tool that's plugged
into it.

I would replace the breaker
with a 15 or 20a and replace the outlet with an appropriate outlet. That
the wire is too big is good.

That's NOT a good idea. The wire used in a 40A circuit is too large to be
adequately secured in a 15- or 20-amp receptacle.

A much better idea - IF, but ONLY if the existing circuit has both a neutral
and a ground - would be to use the existing circuit to feed a subpanel, and
branch new circuits off the subpanel.

Motors drawing over 15a @ 120v should be wired to 240v.

So who has a motor drawing over 15A? He said it's a true 1HP motor. 1HP =
apprpox 750 watts = a little over 6A at 120V.

They will draw half
the amperage, so voltage drop is smaller, especially with starting. It is
not really an issue with your jointer, which is probably only 10a UNLESS you
will also be running your dust collector on the same circuit. Then you
should rewire one to 240v just to get them on separate circuits.

There's really not much point in doing that, unless the two of them together
would overload a single 20A circuit.

Are you
following me, or am I too tired to be coherent? You basically want to avoid
running two tools on the same circuit (at the same time of course). If
rewiring will prevent that, then rewire.

There's nothing wrong with running two, or more, tools on the same circuit at
the same time, as long as the combined load doesn't exceed the capacity of the
circuit.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article , "Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote:

I had the local power utility repair a downed power line once and they
accidentally reversed the phasing, which in turn destroyed a 15 HP 220V 3ph
Ingersol Rand air compressor I operated at work (caused it to run backwards and
the oil pump didn't pick up oil like it should).

Ouch. I hope they paid for repairs.

Now, many years later, I'm dealing with 220V single phase power at the house.
Does it make any difference which [hot] conductor goes to which blade on a 220V plug?

Not at all.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

"Doug Miller" wrote in message om...
In article , "toller" wrote:

Motors drawing over 15a @ 120v should be wired to 240v.

So who has a motor drawing over 15A? He said it's a true 1HP motor. 1HP =
apprpox 750 watts = a little over 6A at 120V.


I'm really not sure what you mean by a true 1HP motor. Do you mean 100% efficiency?

In real life, a 1HP motor will draw between 10 and 15 amps at 115 VAC, depending on motor construction, speed and efficiency.

However, if you know of a source or those 1HP, 6A 120VAC, 100% efficient motors, please post a link. I may want to buy a few.

--
Al Reid

How will I know when I get there...
If I don't know where I'm going?

"Al Reid" wrote in message
...
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
om...
In article , "toller"
wrote:

Motors drawing over 15a @ 120v should be wired to 240v.

So who has a motor drawing over 15A? He said it's a true 1HP motor. 1HP =
apprpox 750 watts = a little over 6A at 120V.


I'm really not sure what you mean by a true 1HP motor. Do you mean 100%
efficiency?

In real life, a 1HP motor will draw between 10 and 15 amps at 115 VAC,
depending on motor construction, speed and efficiency.

However, if you know of a source or those 1HP, 6A 120VAC, 100% efficient
motors, please post a link. I may want to buy a few.

Doug doesn't know of a source, In fact he doesn't know his ass from a hole
in the ground.
He simply looks for my posts and says I am wrong. He will take quote out of
context to make it look like I said something silly. Here I actually said
the 1hp motor probably drew 10a and didn't need to be changed; only motors
over 15 amps needed to be changed. He quoted the "over 15" to make it look
like I said the 1hp motor drew over 15a.
He is an idiot and an obnoxious jerk. I have him killfiled, but I see him
when someone replies to a post in which he says something stupid about my
post.
Do yourself a favor and killfile him; you won't be sorry.

Doug Miller wrote:
I had the local power utility repair a downed power line once and they
accidentally reversed the phasing, which in turn destroyed a 15 HP 220V 3ph
Ingersol Rand air compressor I operated at work (caused it to run backwards
and the oil pump didn't pick up oil like it should).

Ouch. I hope they paid for repairs.


They did. I cost them quite a bit: that was a 5000 psi 15 cfm air compressor
originally designed to pump up the oleo struts of B-52s. I used it to fill
scuba cylinders.


Now, many years later, I'm dealing with 220V single phase power at the house.
Does it make any difference which [hot] conductor goes to which blade on a
220V plug?

Not at all.


Thanks very much. This 220V stuff is looking easier all the time.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

Now, many years later, I'm dealing with 220V single phase power at the
house.
Does it make any difference which conductor goes to which blade on a 220V
plug? Obviously the ground goes to the round prong but there are the two
remaining blades: one oriented vertically; the other hortizontally.

No, 3 phase has to hit the motor in the right sequence. 240v is symetrical,
so the sequence is the same either way.

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 04:51:20 GMT, "toller" wrote:

You can use that 240v outlet, but I don't think it is a good idea to put a
small tool on what is probably a 40a breaker.

Why not? Do you have a bunch of teeny tiny 1A breakers to power your
clock radio and other small devices with? Someone posted similar
nonsense a whlle back saying that because Grizzly recommended a 20A
line for their blurpfl that it would void the warranty to power it
with a 30A line. I recommended that person refrain from giving
electrical advice, obviously lacking a fundamental understanding of
it.

You basically want to avoid running two tools on the same circuit (at the
same time of course).

Why is that? Do you have separate circuits for your food processor and
stand mixer? Geez, where do you guys come up with this stuff?


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 21:04:13 -0800, "Kim" wrote:

The difference for 220V is half the conductor size with half the current
draw. In other words with the same conductor size you could run your jointer
at twice the distance with 220V.

Don't throw conductor size in the argument when debating 120V vs 240V
operation. If one is going to run 240V so one can use smaller
conductors, any possible advantage is lost, as you imply with your
"twice the distance" argument.

Don't connect the jointer to the 30A circuit.

Why not?

Maximum breaker size 15A as your motor is only about 8A at 220V.

Where do you get that from? And if there were some sort of
relationship to breaker size and load demand, why would 15A breaker
with an 8A load be okay but not 20A or 30A breaker?

The load demand has absolutely nothing to do with supply size unless
the load is more than the supply capacity.

Geez, where do you guys get this stuff?


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

"LRod" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 04:51:20 GMT, "toller" wrote:

You can use that 240v outlet, but I don't think it is a good idea to put a
small tool on what is probably a 40a breaker.

Why not? Do you have a bunch of teeny tiny 1A breakers to power your
clock radio and other small devices with? Someone posted similar
nonsense a whlle back saying that because Grizzly recommended a 20A
line for their blurpfl that it would void the warranty to power it
with a 30A line. I recommended that person refrain from giving
electrical advice, obviously lacking a fundamental understanding of
it.

If you read my post, I said he could use it, but I wouldn't.
It is a bad idea to put a 10a load on a circuit protected by a 30a breaker;
no one would argue with that except to be a jerk. The 1a clock on a 15a
circuit is not an appropriate analogy.

You basically want to avoid running two tools on the same circuit (at the
same time of course).

Why is that? Do you have separate circuits for your food processor and
stand mixer? Geez, where do you guys come up with this stuff?

Kitchens are required to have two circuits because it is not a good idea to
run a food processor and stand mixer on the same circuit at the same time.
If you only have one line it is okay if necessary, but only a moron wouldn't
try to avoid it.

Friend of Doug's?

toller wrote:

....

It is a bad idea to put a 10a load on a circuit protected by a 30a breaker;
no one would argue with that except to be a jerk. The 1a clock on a 15a
circuit is not an appropriate analogy.
....

Precisely why for a physical reason do you think this is so?

The purpose of the breaker is to protect the wiring, not the device.

As long as the breaker is not oversized for the wiring, there's no
problem.

Eddie Munster wrote:

It may need a new switch, one for 220.

For what reason...any UL-listed switch supplied will be rated for at
least 250V and amperage for 110V which is twice the current at 220V.

In article , "toller" wrote:

"Al Reid" wrote in message
...
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
om...
In article , "toller"
wrote:

Motors drawing over 15a @ 120v should be wired to 240v.

So who has a motor drawing over 15A? He said it's a true 1HP motor. 1HP =
apprpox 750 watts = a little over 6A at 120V.


I'm really not sure what you mean by a true 1HP motor. Do you mean 100%
efficiency?

In real life, a 1HP motor will draw between 10 and 15 amps at 115 VAC,
depending on motor construction, speed and efficiency.

However, if you know of a source or those 1HP, 6A 120VAC, 100% efficient
motors, please post a link. I may want to buy a few.

Doug doesn't know of a source, In fact he doesn't know his ass from a hole
in the ground.
[snip further ranting]

Toller, your posts demonstrate that you have no business giving anybody advice
on electrical wiring.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message ...
Eddie Munster wrote:

It may need a new switch, one for 220.

For what reason...any UL-listed switch supplied will be rated for at
least 250V and amperage for 110V which is twice the current at 220V.

A switch for 220VAC should be, in the US of A, a 2 pole switch. That is, both hot, ungrounded conductors should be switched. For
the same reason the breaker is a 2 pole device.

--
Al Reid

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know
for sure that just ain't so." --- Mark Twain

Duane:

Duane Bozarth wrote:
toller wrote:
=20
...
=20
=20
It is a bad idea to put a 10a load on a circuit protected by a 30a brea=
ker;
no one would argue with that except to be a jerk. The 1a clock on a 15=
a
circuit is not an appropriate analogy.
=20

It is an entirely appropriate analogy. Devices should (and sometimes=20
must) have internal protective circuitry. He is not being a jerk.=20
Frustrated maybe -- but not a jerk.

...
=20
Precisely why for a physical reason do you think this is so?
=20
The purpose of the breaker is to protect the wiring, not the device.
=20
As long as the breaker is not oversized for the wiring, there's no
problem.


People are confusing _device safety_ with the safety of the distribution =

system as you and other people have pointed out...

You are absolutely correct in your assessment. Not that you need my vote =

to confirm you are correct, but what the heck.

Stands on soap box...
Motors (can, should must etc. depending on applicable regulations and=20
usage) have "safety cut-offs" in the form of thermal and current=20
overdraw breakers of various forms. That's what they are for. So you=20
won't have to put a "small breaker" at the the panel. That's why radios=20
and other electronic devices (should) have an internal fuse or breaker=20
-- although they often don't. But at least when the radio melts it=20
_should not_ harm the wiring -- or you could (might, possibly) get a=20
fire in the wall.
=2E..dismounts from soap box.

OK some else can have it. LOL


--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

In article , "toller" wrote:

"LRod" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 04:51:20 GMT, "toller" wrote:

You can use that 240v outlet, but I don't think it is a good idea to put a
small tool on what is probably a 40a breaker.

Why not? Do you have a bunch of teeny tiny 1A breakers to power your
clock radio and other small devices with? Someone posted similar
nonsense a whlle back saying that because Grizzly recommended a 20A
line for their blurpfl that it would void the warranty to power it
with a 30A line. I recommended that person refrain from giving
electrical advice, obviously lacking a fundamental understanding of
it.

If you read my post, I said he could use it, but I wouldn't.
It is a bad idea to put a 10a load on a circuit protected by a 30a breaker;

There's nothing wrong with that at all. The breaker is there to protect the
wiring, not what's plugged into it.

no one would argue with that except to be a jerk.

Wrong again -- people are arguing with that because it's a false statement.

The 1a clock on a 15a
circuit is not an appropriate analogy.

Of course it is. Only someone who doesn't understand the purpose of circuit
breakers would think otherwise.


You basically want to avoid running two tools on the same circuit (at the
same time of course).

Why is that? Do you have separate circuits for your food processor and
stand mixer? Geez, where do you guys come up with this stuff?

Kitchens are required to have two circuits because it is not a good idea to
run a food processor and stand mixer on the same circuit at the same time.

Where do you come up with ideas like this? What's the problem with running a
7A food processor and a 5A stand mixer simultaneously on a 20A circuit? A
toaster and a microwave together, yes, that could be a problem, because each
could be pulling over 10A, but there's no problem at all with operating *many*
small devices simultaneously on the same circuit, as long as the combined
current draw does not exceed the capacity of the circuit.

If you only have one line it is okay if necessary, but only a moron wouldn't
try to avoid it.

Only a moron, or someone who doesn't understand electricity, would think it
has to be avoided at all costs.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Al Reid wrote:

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message ...
Eddie Munster wrote:

It may need a new switch, one for 220.

For what reason...any UL-listed switch supplied will be rated for at
least 250V and amperage for 110V which is twice the current at 220V.

A switch for 220VAC should be, in the US of A, a 2 pole switch. That is, both hot, ungrounded conductors should be switched. For
the same reason the breaker is a 2 pole device.


Doh...you're right. I'd assume but it would be worthwhile for OP to
check that if it's shipped w/ a switchable motor and is
recommended/discussed that it would have appropriate switch too, but
that wouldn't necessarily be so, granted.

(Think it would indicate a Chinese POS, but that's pretty common these
days... :( )

In article , "Al Reid" wrote:
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
om...
In article , "toller"
wrote:

Motors drawing over 15a @ 120v should be wired to 240v.

So who has a motor drawing over 15A? He said it's a true 1HP motor. 1HP =
apprpox 750 watts = a little over 6A at 120V.


I'm really not sure what you mean by a true 1HP motor. Do you mean 100%
efficiency?

That was the original poster's term, not mine. I assume he meant that it draws
1HP of power.

In real life, a 1HP motor will draw between 10 and 15 amps at 115 VAC,
depending on motor construction, speed and efficiency.

A motor with 1HP output, drawing 15A, isn't very efficient (around 40%). I
think most electric motors do a little better than that.

However, if you know of a source or those 1HP, 6A 120VAC, 100% efficient
motors, please post a link. I may want to buy a few.

The point is that a 1HP motor isn't going to pull "over 15A".

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Al:

Not arguing with you... but... See below.

Al Reid wrote:
"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message news:423847A8=
...
=20
Eddie Munster wrote:

It may need a new switch, one for 220.

For what reason...any UL-listed switch supplied will be rated for at
least 250V and amperage for 110V which is twice the current at 220V.
=20
=20
A switch for 220VAC should be, in the US of A, a 2 pole switch. That i=
s, both hot, ungrounded conductors should be switched. For
the same reason the breaker is a 2 pole device.
=20


You are absolutely correct in that this would be a "good thing" -- is it =

indeed the law? Just because it makes sense doesn't mean it is a=20
requirement... LOL

You twigged me because I recently installed a thermostat for a baseboard =

heater... It was (from the original installation) single pole. The newer =

thermostats I bought were indeed double-pole -- but I could have bought=20
single pole style thermostats. All styles were UL and CSA approved for=20
use in Canada or the USA... I made a mental note to replace it on the=20
next go-round -- but I did not like using it it -- it was expedient=20
though. (Expediency is usually the first step down the path to something =

falling out of the sky... I Know.)

The DPST switch is indeed smarter (safer) you are right.




--=20
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20
who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

In article , "toller" wrote:


Doug doesn't know of a source, In fact he doesn't know his ass from a hole
in the ground.
He simply looks for my posts and says I am wrong.

You usually are, when it comes to electricity. Frequently, your errors lead
you to give advice that is not only incorrect, but potentially dangerous.

He will take quote out of
context to make it look like I said something silly.

I don't have to take your words out of context to make it look like you said
something silly. You do a perfectly adequate job of looking silly entirely on
your own, without any help from me.

Here I actually said
the 1hp motor probably drew 10a and didn't need to be changed; only motors
over 15 amps needed to be changed. He quoted the "over 15" to make it look
like I said the 1hp motor drew over 15a.

You missed the point: 15A motors, regardless of what they need, are utterly
irrelevant to the original poster, because he doesn't have one. So why bring
it up? Like I said, so who has a 15A motor?

He is an idiot and an obnoxious jerk. I have him killfiled, but I see him
when someone replies to a post in which he says something stupid about my
post.

You want some cheese to go with that whine? You're just upset because I caught
*another* instance of you giving incorrect answers to electrical questions.
Quit posting bad advice, and I'll quit calling you on it.

You *don't* know what you're talking about. Someone who makes the mistake of
thinking you do could wind up hurting himself.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 14:31:47 GMT, "toller" wrote:

If you read my post,

I did read it.

I said he could use it, but I wouldn't.

And I asked you why not.

It is a bad idea to put a 10a load on a circuit protected by a 30a breaker;

Please cite a single reputable source that supports that nonsense.
Just one. Of course you won't be able to because any reputable source
is in direct conflict with your distorted concept of electricity.

no one would argue with that except to be a jerk.

If you consider someone disagreeing with a completely nonsensical,
unsupportable proposition being a jerk, then I'll wear the badge
proudly.

The 1a clock on a 15a circuit is not an appropriate analogy.

It's a perfect analogy. That you don't recognsize it is an indicator
that you don't understand electricity. I now believe it was you I
recommended not give any electrical advice. You clearly don't have a
clue about it. In fact, you are the very embodiment of why people
should take advice gleaned from the internet with a huge grain of
salt.

Friend of Doug's?

That would be fine with me. He knows what he's talking about with
regard to electricity. You don't.


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

In article , wrote:
Eddie Munster wrote:

It may need a new switch, one for 220.

For what reason...any UL-listed switch supplied will be rated for at
least 250V and amperage for 110V which is twice the current at 220V.

Maybe so... but that's not what he meant. Switches intended for use with 120V
typically disconnect only the hot conductor. 240V has *two* hot conductors,
and so a double-pole switch is required, to disconnect *both* hot conductors
at once.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

In article , Will wrote:
You are absolutely correct in that this would be a "good thing" -- is it
indeed the law? Just because it makes sense doesn't mean it is a
requirement... LOL

Whether it's required or not is irrelevant: to do otherwise is to create a
potential, and entirely unnecessary, safety hazard.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Doug Miller wrote:

In article , wrote:
Eddie Munster wrote:

It may need a new switch, one for 220.

For what reason...any UL-listed switch supplied will be rated for at
least 250V and amperage for 110V which is twice the current at 220V.

Maybe so... but that's not what he meant. Switches intended for use with 120V
typically disconnect only the hot conductor. 240V has *two* hot conductors,
and so a double-pole switch is required, to disconnect *both* hot conductors
at once.


Yeah, Al already beat me up over my slipup...had a toller moment
there... :(

"Doug Miller" wrote in message om...
In article , "Al Reid" wrote:
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
om...
In article , "toller"
wrote:

Motors drawing over 15a @ 120v should be wired to 240v.

So who has a motor drawing over 15A? He said it's a true 1HP motor. 1HP =
apprpox 750 watts = a little over 6A at 120V.


I'm really not sure what you mean by a true 1HP motor. Do you mean 100%
efficiency?

That was the original poster's term, not mine. I assume he meant that it draws
1HP of power.

In real life, a 1HP motor will draw between 10 and 15 amps at 115 VAC,
depending on motor construction, speed and efficiency.

A motor with 1HP output, drawing 15A, isn't very efficient (around 40%). I
think most electric motors do a little better than that.

However, if you know of a source or those 1HP, 6A 120VAC, 100% efficient
motors, please post a link. I may want to buy a few.

The point is that a 1HP motor isn't going to pull "over 15A".

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Doug,

If we consider Service Factor along with Efficiency and Power Factor, a 1 HP motor will pull between 10 and 15 Amps at 115 VAC.

However, the main point is that a 1 HP motor will NEVER pull 6 FLA. That calculation was just plain wrong.

HTH,


--
Al Reid

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know
for sure that just ain't so." --- Mark Twain

toller wrote:


"LRod" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 04:51:20 GMT, "toller" wrote:

You can use that 240v outlet, but I don't think it is a good idea to put
a small tool on what is probably a 40a breaker.

Why not? Do you have a bunch of teeny tiny 1A breakers to power your
clock radio and other small devices with? Someone posted similar
nonsense a whlle back saying that because Grizzly recommended a 20A
line for their blurpfl that it would void the warranty to power it
with a 30A line. I recommended that person refrain from giving
electrical advice, obviously lacking a fundamental understanding of
it.

If you read my post, I said he could use it, but I wouldn't.
It is a bad idea to put a 10a load on a circuit protected by a 30a
breaker;
no one would argue with that except to be a jerk. The 1a clock on a 15a
circuit is not an appropriate analogy.

So why is it OK to put a 1A clock on a 15A circuit but not on a 30A circuit?

You basically want to avoid running two tools on the same circuit (at the
same time of course).

Why is that? Do you have separate circuits for your food processor and
stand mixer? Geez, where do you guys come up with this stuff?

Kitchens are required to have two circuits because it is not a good idea
to run a food processor and stand mixer on the same circuit at the same
time.

Why not?

The reason kitchens have two circuits is that they are used for cooking,
which often involves heating, using, in addition to the stove, things like
toaster ovens and microwave ovens and deep friers that draw a full 15 amps.

When the requirement for two circuits was put into the codes, nobody had
ever _heard_ of a "food processor".

If you only have one line it is okay if necessary, but only a moron
wouldn't try to avoid it.

Friend of Doug's?

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

on 3/16/2005 8:57 AM Al Reid said the following:
"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message ...

Eddie Munster wrote:

It may need a new switch, one for 220.

For what reason...any UL-listed switch supplied will be rated for at
least 250V and amperage for 110V which is twice the current at 220V.


A switch for 220VAC should be, in the US of A, a 2 pole switch. That is, both hot, ungrounded conductors should be switched. For
the same reason the breaker is a 2 pole device.


Perhaps in an external switch, i.e. wall switch or something like that.

What you suggest makes sense for safety but...

If what you say is true, how is that manufacturer's of power tools that
are easily converted from 110v to 220v are so converted by merely
switching the connection of a pair of leads in the machine? They
certainly are not switching both sides of the connection.

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:32:55 -0600, Duane Bozarth
wrote:


Yeah, Al already beat me up over my slipup...had a toller moment
there... :(

Good one!

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:39:32 GMT, Unquestionably Confused
wrote:


If what you say is true, how is that manufacturer's of power tools that
are easily converted from 110v to 220v are so converted by merely
switching the connection of a pair of leads in the machine? They
certainly are not switching both sides of the connection.

Actually, they areI can't speak for all tools and all manufacturers,
but both my Delta bandsaw switch and my Jet switch (which I bought to
use on my table saw--240V) are DPST switches, and in 120V use switch
both the hot and the neutral, and, with no further rewiring necessary,
will switch both hots of a 240V supply.

In fact, I can't think of a reason why a manufacturer of power tools
easily converted from 120V to 240V wouldn't do it that way.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

on 3/16/2005 11:08 AM LRod said the following:
On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 16:39:32 GMT, Unquestionably Confused
wrote:



If what you say is true, how is that manufacturer's of power tools that
are easily converted from 110v to 220v are so converted by merely
switching the connection of a pair of leads in the machine? They
certainly are not switching both sides of the connection.


Actually, they areI can't speak for all tools and all manufacturers,
but both my Delta bandsaw switch and my Jet switch (which I bought to
use on my table saw--240V) are DPST switches, and in 120V use switch
both the hot and the neutral, and, with no further rewiring necessary,
will switch both hots of a 240V supply.

In fact, I can't think of a reason why a manufacturer of power tools
easily converted from 120V to 240V wouldn't do it that way.

Hmmm, perhaps my bad - I made an assumption and you know what...

I was thinking of the only such tool (other than an air compressor) that
I switched over to 220v being a Craftsman RAS (and yes, it was a 70's
vintage Craftsman that preceded many of the Crapsman power tools that
followedg).

I didn't think it had a DPST switch but now I'm curious enough to check
and see. As I mentioned, I think it's a good idea but wasn't sure that
it was required in that setting.

Thanks.

Your observations prompted me to check the Instruction Manuals for a Delta
10" Contractor's Saw, circa 1990 and a Delta 1HP Dust Collector, circa 2001.
Both machines are supplied with dual voltage 120/230 volt motors.

The more recent manual makes a point of the need for the conversion to be
done by "qualified electrical personnel" to include a)re-wiring the motor
for 240 volts; b)installing a 240 volt plug on the cord; and c) replacing
the single pole on/off switch with a double pole switch. However, the older
manual for the table saw describes only the motor rewiring and the plug
replacement but makes no mention of the need for a new switch. The switch
in question is a simple metal toggle mounted directly in the saw cabinet (so
I haven't dug it out to examine it's specs; parts list just says 'Switch',
438-01-628-004).

Is it possible that the switch supplied with the table saw was/is suitable
for both 120 and 240 volt operation? Is it likely that it is, in fact, DPST
to begin with; and, if so, can a DPST be used for either 120 or 240 volt
operation.

The newer, Dust Collector manual Parts List doesn't list a 220 volt switch
either and the switch design doesn't look 'generic'; instead, the manual
says: "Should you desire to have your dust collector converted for 240
volts, take your dust collector to the nearest Authorized Service Center".

David Merrill

PS Has anyone else noticed that, after some thirty-odd posts, nobody has
addressed the OP's first question regarding whether there is any real
[practical] advantage to his converting his 6" jointer from 120 to 240?
Yes, I know it's been beat to death :-) but so has the mechanics of doing
it.



"Doug Miller" wrote in message
om...
In article , Will
wrote:
You are absolutely correct in that this would be a "good thing" -- is it
indeed the law? Just because it makes sense doesn't mean it is a
requirement... LOL

Whether it's required or not is irrelevant: to do otherwise is to create a
potential, and entirely unnecessary, safety hazard.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Geez, where do you guys get this stuff?

IEEE, NEC, short circuit and load flow studies, breaker/device
coordinations.

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:51:21 GMT, "David Merrill"
wrote:


PS Has anyone else noticed that, after some thirty-odd posts, nobody has
addressed the OP's first question regarding whether there is any real
[practical] advantage to his converting his 6" jointer from 120 to 240?
Yes, I know it's been beat to death :-) but so has the mechanics of doing
it.

Excuse me, but I was the first to respond to the OP and I absolutely
did address that.

Sure, the answer is buried in some technical stuff, but it's there;
note especially paragraphs two and three:

Here's the way to look at it: in most dual voltage motors there are
two windings. It is possible to connect the windings either in series
or in parallel. For 120V operation, the windings are connected in
parallel; for 240V operation, the windings are connected in series.

What all of this means is related to E=IR (Ohm's Law) and the
derivative, P=IE, and the result is half the current used at 240V vs
that used at 120V--however, the power (watts) is the same. The
windings in your motor are thus always seeing 120V so no difference in
efficiency, no change in the electric bill, and no cooler running.

If you have a stiff supply (short run of adequately sized wire) it
won't make a whit of difference which voltage you run it on. If you
have a 15A run of 50 feet, you would indeed be well served by rewiring
the motor to 240V, if for no other reason than to reduce the effect of
the high current draw (and voltage drop) at startup.


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:16:57 GMT, Unquestionably Confused
wrote:

I was thinking of the only such tool (other than an air compressor) that
I switched over to 220v being a Craftsman RAS (and yes, it was a 70's
vintage Craftsman that preceded many of the Crapsman power tools that
followedg).

I didn't think it had a DPST switch but now I'm curious enough to check
and see. As I mentioned, I think it's a good idea but wasn't sure that
it was required in that setting.

I also switched a 1972 Sears RAS to 240V and I guarantee I didn't
(haven't) touch[ed] the switch. I can only assume that it was a DPST
to begin with. I never looked. But the instructions only related to
the leads in the motor.


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

In article ,
"toller" wrote:

If you read my post, I said he could use it, but I wouldn't.
It is a bad idea to put a 10a load on a circuit protected by a 30a breaker;
no one would argue with that except to be a jerk. The 1a clock on a 15a
circuit is not an appropriate analogy.

It sure as hell is an appropriate analogy.

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 10:40:45 -0800, "Kim" wrote:


Geez, where do you guys get this stuff?

IEEE, NEC, short circuit and load flow studies, breaker/device
coordinations.

You can blindly claim all the initialed documents you want, but cite
just one specific paragraph in any reputable regulatory document that
supports your statement: "[m]aximum breaker size 15A as your motor is
only about 8A at 220V."

That's pure nonsense, and I'll be the first to apologize ot you were
you to come up with something. Of course that's a safe promise,
because you not only can't, but you won't.

Local AHJs don't count as their specific requirements are not germane
to the discussion, but I'd be happy to see them if they do exist.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net