I've been experimenting with my woodrat and I find that after some
practice I can make joints as tight or loose as I wish.

Although there is a certain satisfaction in making a really slick,
precise and tightly fitting dry joint, I begin to suspect that things
would be better if I left a little more room for some glue.

While all the test joints I have made seem to hold OK, with an aim of
making furniture that lasts reasonably well I am concerned to get this
right.

What's the word then, assembled guru's, on how tight is tight enough,
or how much space is necessary for sufficient glue in a joint?

Nigel wrote:

....
What's the word then, assembled guru's, on how tight is tight enough,
or how much space is necessary for sufficient glue in a joint?

Snug w/ maybe a light tap for final drawdown on a large mortise...

More force required is too tight, a fit that goes "klunk" when it hits
the shoulder is too loose...

"Nigel" wrote in message

What's the word then, assembled guru's, on how tight is tight enough,
or how much space is necessary for sufficient glue in a joint?

My general rule of thumb is just tight enough to put together and take apart
by hand, but not so loose that it will fall apart by itself.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

On 21 Feb 2005 08:22:07 -0800, "Nigel" wrote:

I hope I'm not the only one to make a smartass reply based on the
subject line, but I was taught to make it tight enough that none of
the leaves fall out once it's lit...if I'd ever rolled one, that
is...one what, I don't know.


- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

For most joints, a snug fit is best. Not so tight that it requires a
hard tug to pull it apart nor a mallet to put together, not so loose
that there is slop. My handcut dovetail joints are the exception--they
are tight and require a mallet to assemble. Don't be concerned about
enough glue in the joint, a thin layer on both mating surfaces is
enough. Never think the glue will compensate for a loose-fitting
joint.

On 21 Feb 2005 08:22:07 -0800, "Nigel" wrote:

I've been experimenting with my woodrat and I find that after some
practice I can make joints as tight or loose as I wish.

Although there is a certain satisfaction in making a really slick,
precise and tightly fitting dry joint, I begin to suspect that things
would be better if I left a little more room for some glue.

While all the test joints I have made seem to hold OK, with an aim of
making furniture that lasts reasonably well I am concerned to get this
right.

What's the word then, assembled guru's, on how tight is tight enough,
or how much space is necessary for sufficient glue in a joint?

one what, I don't know.

I'm sure I don't know either !

Don't be concerned about enough glue in the joint, a thin layer on
both mating surfaces is enough.

This is what I was worrying about. This sounds like the best of both
worlds then - a tight fitting dry joint is a pleasure to produce (in a
wierd sort of way) and should hold well too!

I assume this is also glue independant? For now I'm using TiteBond ..

Thanks people,

Nigel.

"Nigel" wrote in message
oups.com...
Don't be concerned about enough glue in the joint, a thin layer on
both mating surfaces is enough.

This is what I was worrying about. This sounds like the best of both
worlds then - a tight fitting dry joint is a pleasure to produce (in a
wierd sort of way) and should hold well too!

I assume this is also glue independant? For now I'm using TiteBond ..


Well, it's not all that you think. The word "snug" is best, I believe, in
describing the dry fit. Water-soluble glues expand the fiber almost
immediately, so don't dawdle over assembly.

Oh yes, the plastic will keep the area expanded as it solidifies, so you
really can get by with a little less than a press fit.

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 17:06:43 +0000, LRod
wrote:

On 21 Feb 2005 08:22:07 -0800, "Nigel" wrote:

I hope I'm not the only one to make a smartass reply based on the
subject line, but I was taught to make it tight enough that none of
the leaves fall out once it's lit...if I'd ever rolled one, that
is...one what, I don't know.

Beat me to it.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

On 21 Feb 2005 08:22:07 -0800, "Nigel" wrote:

I've been experimenting with my woodrat and I find that after some
practice I can make joints as tight or loose as I wish.

Although there is a certain satisfaction in making a really slick,
precise and tightly fitting dry joint, I begin to suspect that things
would be better if I left a little more room for some glue.

While all the test joints I have made seem to hold OK, with an aim of
making furniture that lasts reasonably well I am concerned to get this
right.

What's the word then, assembled guru's, on how tight is tight enough,
or how much space is necessary for sufficient glue in a joint?


you want them to slide smoothly together without needing to be driven
and without slopping about.

While I agree with all the posts, I'll add one item: the surfaces should be
smooth. I can just a joint on the bandsaw that slides smoothly together
without slop, but the rougher surface just won't be as strong unless the glue
is sufficiently gap-filling and enough is applied.

Still and all, most well-made glue joints are stronger than the wood itself. I
compared MT joints with the mortice from morticing bits and the tenon on a BS,
against routed mortice and TS tenon. Angled strain broke the wood in both
cases. However, repeated back-and-forth pounding loosened the former while the
latter held.
GerryG

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 17:07:07 -0700, s wrote:

On 21 Feb 2005 08:22:07 -0800, "Nigel" wrote:

I've been experimenting with my woodrat and I find that after some
practice I can make joints as tight or loose as I wish.

Although there is a certain satisfaction in making a really slick,
precise and tightly fitting dry joint, I begin to suspect that things
would be better if I left a little more room for some glue.

While all the test joints I have made seem to hold OK, with an aim of
making furniture that lasts reasonably well I am concerned to get this
right.

What's the word then, assembled guru's, on how tight is tight enough,
or how much space is necessary for sufficient glue in a joint?


you want them to slide smoothly together without needing to be driven
and without slopping about.

In addition to the leaves not falling out, don't forget that air must pass
through it easily once lit, or else it is too tight. --dave

"LRod" wrote in message
...
On 21 Feb 2005 08:22:07 -0800, "Nigel" wrote:

I hope I'm not the only one to make a smartass reply based on the
subject line, but I was taught to make it tight enough that none of
the leaves fall out once it's lit...if I'd ever rolled one, that
is...one what, I don't know.


- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Brings back memories of 30 years ago when I could roll up a perfect
bone with one Bugler paper (not that EZwider stuff, that was for
"kids") in under 10 seconds. Although I gave up the reefer almost as
many years ago, a buddy of mine smokes Bugler's and I rolled one up
just as quick for him, better than he can, so you never lose the touch,
I guess.

Mutt

Subject

Reminds me of the old one about how do you make a hormone?

Answer:

Don't pay her.

Moan

Lew

Tim Douglass wrote:

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 17:06:43 +0000, LRod
wrote:


On 21 Feb 2005 08:22:07 -0800, "Nigel" wrote:

I hope I'm not the only one to make a smartass reply based on the
subject line, but I was taught to make it tight enough that none of
the leaves fall out once it's lit...if I'd ever rolled one, that
is...one what, I don't know.



Beat me to it.

Tim Douglass


Does one may need a clip or clamp to properly hold it during some part
of the process? Damn, I don't remember... Got the munchies....gotta
go.......
Go Seahawks!

Lew Hodgett wrote:

Subject

Reminds me of the old one about how do you make a hormone?

Answer:

Don't pay her.

Moan

Lew

Or step on her douche bag..............

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:13:09 -0700, John DeBoo
wrote:

Tim Douglass wrote:

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 17:06:43 +0000, LRod
wrote:


On 21 Feb 2005 08:22:07 -0800, "Nigel" wrote:

I hope I'm not the only one to make a smartass reply based on the
subject line, but I was taught to make it tight enough that none of
the leaves fall out once it's lit...if I'd ever rolled one, that
is...one what, I don't know.



Beat me to it.

Tim Douglass


Does one may need a clip or clamp to properly hold it during some part
of the process? Damn, I don't remember... Got the munchies....gotta
go.......

I think that a clip of some sort would be considered part of *using*
not *making*.

Go Seahawks!

Right on!

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 03:44:44 GMT, GerryG wrote:

While I agree with all the posts, I'll add one item: the surfaces should be
smooth. I can just a joint on the bandsaw that slides smoothly together
without slop, but the rougher surface just won't be as strong unless the glue
is sufficiently gap-filling and enough is applied.

Still and all, most well-made glue joints are stronger than the wood itself. I
compared MT joints with the mortice from morticing bits and the tenon on a BS,
against routed mortice and TS tenon. Angled strain broke the wood in both
cases. However, repeated back-and-forth pounding loosened the former while the
latter held.
GerryG

Good point and one I hadn't thought of. How smooth *are* the mortises
from a mortising machine? Maybe on a related thought, are mortises
stronger with rounded corners (routed) or with square corners?
Intuition would tell me that a rounded M&T would have fewer stress
points and would therefore be stronger, but intuition is often wrong.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

"Tim Douglass" wrote in message
...

Maybe on a related thought, are mortises
stronger with rounded corners (routed) or with square corners?
Intuition would tell me that a rounded M&T would have fewer stress
points and would therefore be stronger, but intuition is often wrong.


M/T has shear strength based on the tenon depth and wood strength. Shape of
corner unimportant. What's important is that the tenon should mate with the
bottom of the of the mortise in the load direction. Can be loose as a goose
up top.

Racking stress depends on a firm register of the shoulders of the tenoned
member against the mortised member.

Unshouldered tenons should fit and bottom the mortise to take best advantage
of the anti-racking available by having some resistance at right angles to
the tenon itself.

John DeBoo wrote:

Does one may need a clip or clamp to properly hold it during some
part of the process? Damn, I don't remember... Got the
munchies....gotta go.......
Go Seahawks!

This may refresh your memory... "bracelet assistant", right!

http://www.pennstateind.com/Merchant...te gory_Code=

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:42:47 -0500, Nova
wrote:

John DeBoo wrote:

Does one may need a clip or clamp to properly hold it during some
part of the process? Damn, I don't remember... Got the
munchies....gotta go.......
Go Seahawks!

This may refresh your memory... "bracelet assistant", right!

http://www.pennstateind.com/Merchant...te gory_Code=

*Very* nice roach^h^h^h^h^h bracelet assistant. And since it is made
from wood it gets this mess back on topic.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:21:34 -0700, John DeBoo
wrote:

Lew Hodgett wrote:

Subject

Reminds me of the old one about how do you make a hormone?

Answer:

Don't pay her.

Moan

Lew

Or step on her douche bag..............

Pinch her tit.

Tim Douglass wrote:

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:42:47 -0500, Nova
wrote:


John DeBoo wrote:


Does one may need a clip or clamp to properly hold it during some
part of the process? Damn, I don't remember... Got the
munchies....gotta go.......
Go Seahawks!


This may refresh your memory... "bracelet assistant", right!

http://www.pennstateind.com/Merchant...te gory_Code=



*Very* nice roach^h^h^h^h^h bracelet assistant. And since it is made
from wood it gets this mess back on topic.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com


Hmmmmm, there just may be something to turning
pens................................
John

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 19:24:03 -0700, John DeBoo
wrote:


Please turn off your HTML.

- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

George wrote:

M/T has shear strength based on the tenon depth and wood strength. Shape of
corner unimportant. What's important is that the tenon should mate with the
bottom of the of the mortise in the load direction. Can be loose as a goose
up top.

Racking stress depends on a firm register of the shoulders of the tenoned
member against the mortised member.

Unshouldered tenons should fit and bottom the mortise to take best advantage
of the anti-racking available by having some resistance at right angles to
the tenon itself.

and charlie b added:

the following may make George's points clearer

http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/MtPrimer4.html

wood expands more, a lot more, acrossed the grain than with the
grain.
A mortise and tenon typically joins at 90 degrees (+/-). If the
tenon
fits the opening snug all the way around, the dimension of the
mortise
won't change much, the depth of the mortise might but that's not
a problem. The tenon, on the other hand, can expand or contract
because
of the cross grain on the critical, largest cross grain height
dimension.
Leaving a little room on top gives the tenon some room to move.

|-----|
| |------
| | ^
| | |
| | v
| |-----------


And here's some more on "fit", including "spit tight".

http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/MTPrimer13.html

M&Ts seem so easy and straight foreward - until you think
about it a bit - or try to make some good ones. Them old
woodworkers were pretty smart - and skilled!

Hope this helps.

charlie b

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:13:57 -0800, charlie b
wrote:

and charlie b added:

the following may make George's points clearer

http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/MtPrimer4.html

Good stuff all the way around. I guess there really isn't any reason
to square the corners of my mortises when I cut them with a router. It
is dead simple to make the tenon fit the rounded corners and a bit of
a pain to make the mortise square, so with no structural reason to do
it differently I'm voting for round ended M&Ts unless someone provides
a practical reason or if I'm doing a through tenon.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

I just browsed around a bit on charlie b's site. There are some
interesting thoughts there ... probably old hat to you pro's but this
beginner is pushed into thinking a bit about what he finds there.
Thanks charlie !

Charlie's site like a pretty good reference for many to start with. As was
mentioned, there are very few articles that go into enough detail. However,
keep an eye open for articles by Ian Kirby. He goes into more details of
joinery than most.

A little confusing, though, on his mortise/tenon-first page. He says he cuts
the tenon first, then goes on and gives another reason for cutting the mortise
first. I agree with his comments, but I'm not sure which his conclusion is.
For most cases, I used to always start with the mortise. Moving to router
template jigs, however, it no longer matters since I get exact duplicates
(provided I don't flip the reference faces, of course).

GerryG

On 23 Feb 2005 12:09:04 -0800, "Nigel" wrote:

I just browsed around a bit on charlie b's site. There are some
interesting thoughts there ... probably old hat to you pro's but this
beginner is pushed into thinking a bit about what he finds there.
Thanks charlie !

GerryG wrote:

Charlie's site like a pretty good reference for many to start with. As was
mentioned, there are very few articles that go into enough detail. However,
keep an eye open for articles by Ian Kirby. He goes into more details of
joinery than most.

A little confusing, though, on his mortise/tenon-first page. He says he cuts
the tenon first, then goes on and gives another reason for cutting the mortise
first. I agree with his comments, but I'm not sure which his conclusion is.

Geez, and I thought I was like The Pope - inflammable. Sorry - it
was
a Thinko (mental equivalent of a typo) and it's been fixed.
Definitely
mortise first -yeah, mortise first. K-Mart sucks, yeah.

http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/MTPrimer11.html

Sorry about the confusion. My bad.

charlie b

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:21:46 -0800, the inscrutable charlie b
spake:

SCREAMING YELLOW ZONKERS
THE Ultimate stoner munchie!

charlie b
flashing back
now its nitros oxide - at the dontist's
endodontist, periodontist, prostheodontist ...
"we can rebuild him - we have the
technology.
(am way beyond mere dentists and
approaching the 6 million dollar mark)

Zig-zag machine. (Remove stems and seeds first.)

Hmmm, mmm mmm "No stems, no seeds that you don't need,
Acapulco Gold is Bad Ass Weed." mmmmm

(from a whole 'nother life ago)


-----------------------------------------------------------------
When I die, I'm leaving my body to science fiction. --Steven Wright
----------------------------
http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development

Ummm... on
http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/MTPrimer11.html
you have "Another reason for doing the mortises first"
still there.
GerryG

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:06:17 -0800, charlie b wrote:

GerryG wrote:

Charlie's site like a pretty good reference for many to start with. As was
mentioned, there are very few articles that go into enough detail. However,
keep an eye open for articles by Ian Kirby. He goes into more details of
joinery than most.

A little confusing, though, on his mortise/tenon-first page. He says he cuts
the tenon first, then goes on and gives another reason for cutting the mortise
first. I agree with his comments, but I'm not sure which his conclusion is.

Geez, and I thought I was like The Pope - inflammable. Sorry - it
was
a Thinko (mental equivalent of a typo) and it's been fixed.
Definitely
mortise first -yeah, mortise first. K-Mart sucks, yeah.

http://home.comcast.net/~charliebcz/MTPrimer11.html

Sorry about the confusion. My bad.

charlie b