Hi All

I'm starting to build my own kitchen cupboards, The base carcass's are done
and I'm starting work on the upper ones. I know my dad always used a rabbet
joint at the corners of the carcass's and then used a finish nails. I am
wondering about using a biscuit jointer with no rabbet. Just flushing the
3/4 ply with the face out and using about 4 biscuits across the 12 inches of
joint. I figure it should hold along with the glue then fire a 3 brads in
there. Then I can shore it up with the face frame, if it need any after 4
biscuits.

Any thoughts on this approach.

Cheers Mike H

"mh" wrote in message
news:54mCd.45925$dv1.12303@edtnps89...
Hi All

I'm starting to build my own kitchen cupboards, The base carcass's are
done and I'm starting work on the upper ones. I know my dad always used a
rabbet joint at the corners of the carcass's and then used a finish nails.
I am wondering about using a biscuit jointer with no rabbet. Just flushing
the 3/4 ply with the face out and using about 4 biscuits across the 12
inches of joint. I figure it should hold along with the glue then fire a 3
brads in there. Then I can shore it up with the face frame, if it need any
after 4 biscuits.


The beauty to the rabbet is that it hides the end of the board. If the cut
is not perfectly straight that is OK. If you butt joint with biscuits the
joint line has to be perfect. Additionally the rabbet holds the joint in
place perfectly during clamping. Biscuits can have a little play. I'd
stick with the rabbet.

"mh" wrote in message
news:54mCd.45925$dv1.12303@edtnps89...
Hi All

I'm starting to build my own kitchen cupboards, The base carcass's are
done
and I'm starting work on the upper ones. I know my dad always used a
rabbet
joint at the corners of the carcass's and then used a finish nails. I am
wondering about using a biscuit jointer with no rabbet. Just flushing the
3/4 ply with the face out and using about 4 biscuits across the 12 inches
of
joint. I figure it should hold along with the glue then fire a 3 brads in
there. Then I can shore it up with the face frame, if it need any after 4
biscuits.

Any thoughts on this approach.

Cheers Mike H

I don't know that I'd bother with the bisquits Mike. They make alignment
easier, but they don't strengthen the joint. I'd rabbit it like you Dad
did, but that's just because I like the extra strength of the added glue
surface. I'm not sure I'd really be comfortable with just a butt joint
glued up - even with bisquits. I'd want some mechanical fastener in there.
Finish nails or brads, if you have long enough ones.


--

-Mike-

"mh" wrote in news:54mCd.45925$dv1.12303@edtnps89:

I'm starting to build my own kitchen cupboards,

Your next acquisition should be a good book on the subject. Authors Jim
Tolpin, Danny Proulx and Udo Schmidt, amongst others, have done an
excellent job in presenting joinery and design methods.

A few things may have changed since you watched your dad.

Note #2: A prototype may be in order, with which you can test alternate
methods. You needn't make it full-scale. And the person(s) with whom you
share the kitchen then can express an informed opinion before you have to
redo it to suit them.

Patriarch, who swears he's a realist, and not a cynic...

ps: Biscuits are great. Pocket screws are great. Together, they're even
better.

Your dad did it right. The rabbet is a stronger joint than biscuits
because of more gluing area and fit.

On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 01:12:33 GMT, "mh" wrote:

Hi All

I'm starting to build my own kitchen cupboards, The base carcass's are done
and I'm starting work on the upper ones. I know my dad always used a rabbet
joint at the corners of the carcass's and then used a finish nails. I am
wondering about using a biscuit jointer with no rabbet. Just flushing the
3/4 ply with the face out and using about 4 biscuits across the 12 inches of
joint. I figure it should hold along with the glue then fire a 3 brads in
there. Then I can shore it up with the face frame, if it need any after 4
biscuits.

Any thoughts on this approach.

Cheers Mike H

On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 01:12:33 GMT, "mh" wrote:

Hi All

I'm starting to build my own kitchen cupboards, The base carcass's are done
and I'm starting work on the upper ones. I know my dad always used a rabbet
joint at the corners of the carcass's and then used a finish nails. I am
wondering about using a biscuit jointer with no rabbet. Just flushing the
3/4 ply with the face out and using about 4 biscuits across the 12 inches of
joint. I figure it should hold along with the glue then fire a 3 brads in
there. Then I can shore it up with the face frame, if it need any after 4
biscuits.

Any thoughts on this approach.

Cheers Mike H



I'd leave out the brads. nothing like having a nail hit on a biscuit
and turn out the face....

I don't know that I'd bother with the bisquits Mike. They make alignment
easier, but they don't strengthen the joint.

It's a shame this myth continues on the wreck. Many a great kitchen cabinet
has been built with biscuits and they haven't fallen off the wall. If one
takes time, you will learn biscuits are a wonderful tool to use in
woodworking, and they easily perform structural tasks.

--

Rumpty

Radial Arm Saw Forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/woodbutcher/start

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

"mh" wrote in message
news:54mCd.45925$dv1.12303@edtnps89...
Hi All

I'm starting to build my own kitchen cupboards, The base carcass's are
done
and I'm starting work on the upper ones. I know my dad always used a
rabbet
joint at the corners of the carcass's and then used a finish nails. I am
wondering about using a biscuit jointer with no rabbet. Just flushing
the
3/4 ply with the face out and using about 4 biscuits across the 12
inches
of
joint. I figure it should hold along with the glue then fire a 3 brads
in
there. Then I can shore it up with the face frame, if it need any after
4
biscuits.

Any thoughts on this approach.

Cheers Mike H

I don't know that I'd bother with the bisquits Mike. They make alignment
easier, but they don't strengthen the joint. I'd rabbit it like you Dad
did, but that's just because I like the extra strength of the added glue
surface. I'm not sure I'd really be comfortable with just a butt joint
glued up - even with bisquits. I'd want some mechanical fastener in
there.
Finish nails or brads, if you have long enough ones.


--

-Mike-

Rumpty wrote:
I don't know that I'd bother with the bisquits Mike. They make
alignment
easier, but they don't strengthen the joint.

It's a shame this myth continues on the wreck. Many a great kitchen
cabinet
has been built with biscuits and they haven't fallen off the wall.
If one
takes time, you will learn biscuits are a wonderful tool to use in
woodworking, and they easily perform structural tasks.

Nobody is saying biscuits are useless, but just because the cabinet
hasn't fallen off of the wall doesn't mean they strengthen the joint
(depending on the joint).

Certainly a biscuited right angle joint would be stronger than a butt
joint, but I'd like to hear the science of how a biscuited edge joint
would be stronger than a non-biscuited edge joint.

"mh" wrote in message
news:54mCd.45925$dv1.12303@edtnps89...
Hi All

I'm starting to build my own kitchen cupboards, The base carcass's are
done
and I'm starting work on the upper ones. I know my dad always used a
rabbet
joint at the corners of the carcass's and then used a finish nails. I am
wondering about using a biscuit jointer with no rabbet. Just flushing the
3/4 ply with the face out and using about 4 biscuits across the 12 inches
of
joint. I figure it should hold along with the glue then fire a 3 brads in
there. Then I can shore it up with the face frame, if it need any after 4
biscuits.

Any thoughts on this approach.

Cheers Mike H



Consider pocket screws (Kreg jig), with or without the rabbet. I like to
use rabbets myself. Adds some strength and makes alignment easier at
assembly. All in all, easier than biscuits IMHO.

--
********
Bill Pounds
http://www.billpounds.com

=20
wrote in message =
oups.com...
|=20
| Rumpty wrote:
| I don't know that I'd bother with the bisquits Mike. They make
| alignment
| easier, but they don't strengthen the joint.
|
| It's a shame this myth continues on the wreck. Many a great kitchen
| cabinet
| has been built with biscuits and they haven't fallen off the wall.
| If one
| takes time, you will learn biscuits are a wonderful tool to use in
| woodworking, and they easily perform structural tasks.
|=20
| Nobody is saying biscuits are useless, but just because the cabinet
| hasn't fallen off of the wall doesn't mean they strengthen the joint
| (depending on the joint).
|=20
| Certainly a biscuited right angle joint would be stronger than a butt
| joint, but I'd like to hear the science of how a biscuited edge joint
| would be stronger than a non-biscuited edge joint.
|

This may not please you, but; a biscuit seems to me to be of about the =
same value to a joint as a floating tenon in that it will serve to =
increase the glue area thereby increasing the durability and stability =
of the joint.

That said, the actual durability of the joint would seem to be dependant =
upon the quality of the glue and glue-up, and the drying time. Issue =
157 of WOOD (Sept 2004) has a comparison of various glues - =
polyurethanes, PVA's and water-resistant PVA's. The following tests =
used only but joints with no additional reinforcment. All the glues =
tested seemed to achieve maximum strength after 30 minutes of drying =
time except for the polyurethanes which required 120 minutes.

When joining edge grain to edge grain, almost all the glues tried =
resulted in the wood failing before the glued joint. The pressure =
required to "break" the joint exceeded 1600 PSI in all cases. In this =
instance, a tenon of any variety would seem superfluous. =20

When gluing edge grain to end grain, the results are quite different. =
The use of a tenon/biscuit, dowels, cope and stick is highly =
recommended. =20

The polyurethane glues failed between 350PSI and 800PSI, the =
water-resistant PVA's failed between 1200PSI and 1800PSI, and the PVS'a =
failed between 1150 PSI and 1400PSI. Of note is the fact that 4 glues =
surpassed all others in this area (the wood failed before the glue). =
These glues a=20
Elmer's Carpenter's ProBond Interior/Exterior
Titebond Moulding and Trim
Loctite Professional Wood Worx
Elmer's Probond Interior =20
--=20

PDQ
--

Well folks, thanks for the input, well the varied responses to my question
has left me with only one point to ponder, I have had great luck using my
biscuits joiner, its worked well for many projects. My first thought was to
basicly be lazy and not cut the rabbet, though I knew it was the way to go.
Actually my dad build one heck of allot of cupboards in his life and they
never fell off the wall. And his rabbet joints never used glue, just finish
nails. You all should have seen me taking out the old cupboards ( my dad
built them) hammers, recip saw, crow bar, and pull like heck. So i'm going
to use rabbets and glue.
By the way, most of the carcasses will be 3/4 in birch ply, but I did not
want the ends of the cupboards, the ones you see when you come into the
kitchen and down the stairs, to be a flat plain, so I have made then out of
1 inch birch stock stile and rail with a flat panel. I think it will look
great.

I'll keep ya posted.

Cheers Mike H
"Pounds on Wood" wrote in message
...


"mh" wrote in message
news:54mCd.45925$dv1.12303@edtnps89...
Hi All

I'm starting to build my own kitchen cupboards, The base carcass's are
done
and I'm starting work on the upper ones. I know my dad always used a
rabbet
joint at the corners of the carcass's and then used a finish nails. I am
wondering about using a biscuit jointer with no rabbet. Just flushing the
3/4 ply with the face out and using about 4 biscuits across the 12 inches
of
joint. I figure it should hold along with the glue then fire a 3 brads in
there. Then I can shore it up with the face frame, if it need any after 4
biscuits.

Any thoughts on this approach.

Cheers Mike H



Consider pocket screws (Kreg jig), with or without the rabbet. I like to
use rabbets myself. Adds some strength and makes alignment easier at
assembly. All in all, easier than biscuits IMHO.

--
********
Bill Pounds
http://www.billpounds.com

"Rumpty" wrote in message
...
I don't know that I'd bother with the bisquits Mike. They make alignment
easier, but they don't strengthen the joint.

It's a shame this myth continues on the wreck. Many a great kitchen
cabinet
has been built with biscuits and they haven't fallen off the wall. If one
takes time, you will learn biscuits are a wonderful tool to use in
woodworking, and they easily perform structural tasks.


I'm not so sure of that Rumpty. Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't a few
tests been done that showed that biscuits don't add any strength? You're
absolutely correct in saying that many cabinets have been built using them,
but many more have been built without using them, and they're still hanging
on the walls too. That really doesn't make the biscuit the reason for the
cabinets holding together. I'll agree that the slightly increased surface
area provided by the biscuit must increase strength somewhat, but again,
remembering back to tests people have published, it does not seem that it
was all that great.
--

-Mike-

There are a few books out on the subject of biscuit joints and most have the
strength comparisons.

Mike,

This always comes up on the wreck that biscuits are good for alignment only.
My shop, as well as many other shops have used biscuits for years in all
sorts of structural joints etc. They are a wonderful tool. Learn to use
them correctly and you won't have any failures.

The Shakers would have loved biscuits.

FWIW, the last thing we use biscuits for is alignment during glue ups.

--

Rumpty

Radial Arm Saw Forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/woodbutcher/start

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...

"Rumpty" wrote in message
...
I don't know that I'd bother with the bisquits Mike. They make
alignment
easier, but they don't strengthen the joint.

It's a shame this myth continues on the wreck. Many a great kitchen
cabinet
has been built with biscuits and they haven't fallen off the wall. If
one
takes time, you will learn biscuits are a wonderful tool to use in
woodworking, and they easily perform structural tasks.


I'm not so sure of that Rumpty. Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't a
few
tests been done that showed that biscuits don't add any strength? You're
absolutely correct in saying that many cabinets have been built using
them,
but many more have been built without using them, and they're still
hanging
on the walls too. That really doesn't make the biscuit the reason for the
cabinets holding together. I'll agree that the slightly increased surface
area provided by the biscuit must increase strength somewhat, but again,
remembering back to tests people have published, it does not seem that it
was all that great.
--

-Mike-

If you can "break a biscuit across a joint easier than a tenon", then I =
would suggest you are using the wrong quality of glue. Read the rest of =
my reply of which you cited only a part.

--=20

PDQ
--
=20
"Larry Blanchard" wrote in message =
...
| In article ,=2 0
| says...
| This may not please you, but; a biscuit seems to me to be of about =
the =3D
| same value to a joint as a floating tenon in that it will serve to =
=3D
| increase the glue area thereby increasing the durability and =
stability =3D
| of the joint.
| =20
| But not the equivalent in strength. I can break a biscuit across a=20
| joint a lot easier than I can break a floating tenon 1/4" or 3/8" =
thick.
|=20
| However, to be fair, I don't know if that kind of strength is =
required.
|=20
| --=20
| Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

In article ,
says...
This may not please you, but; a biscuit seems to me to be of about the =
same value to a joint as a floating tenon in that it will serve to =
increase the glue area thereby increasing the durability and stability =
of the joint.

But not the equivalent in strength. I can break a biscuit across a
joint a lot easier than I can break a floating tenon 1/4" or 3/8" thick.

However, to be fair, I don't know if that kind of strength is required.

--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

Mike,

For what it is worth, I built my kitchen about 10 years ago using
3/4 birch ply, rabbets, and glue. No failures. I had some ply end
panels showing and some with rail and stile panels to cover the ply.
Both are fine. I'm just starting the cabinets to go into the new house.
Same technique (but with lots more tools this time). Biscuits are
nice for alignment, but I still do it the old way-good straight edges
glued carefully.

Good luck on your project.

Len
---------------

Mike Harvey wrote:
Well folks, thanks for the input, well the varied responses to my question
has left me with only one point to ponder, I have had great luck using my
biscuits joiner, its worked well for many projects. My first thought was to
basicly be lazy and not cut the rabbet, though I knew it was the way to go.
Actually my dad build one heck of allot of cupboards in his life and they
never fell off the wall. And his rabbet joints never used glue, just finish
nails. You all should have seen me taking out the old cupboards ( my dad
built them) hammers, recip saw, crow bar, and pull like heck. So i'm going
to use rabbets and glue.
By the way, most of the carcasses will be 3/4 in birch ply, but I did not
want the ends of the cupboards, the ones you see when you come into the
kitchen and down the stairs, to be a flat plain, so I have made then out of
1 inch birch stock stile and rail with a flat panel. I think it will look
great.

I'll keep ya posted.

Cheers Mike H
"Pounds on Wood" wrote in message
...


"mh" wrote in message
news:54mCd.45925$dv1.12303@edtnps89...

Hi All

I'm starting to build my own kitchen cupboards, The base carcass's are

done

and I'm starting work on the upper ones. I know my dad always used a

rabbet

joint at the corners of the carcass's and then used a finish nails. I am
wondering about using a biscuit jointer with no rabbet. Just flushing the
3/4 ply with the face out and using about 4 biscuits across the 12 inches

of

joint. I figure it should hold along with the glue then fire a 3 brads in
there. Then I can shore it up with the face frame, if it need any after 4
biscuits.

Any thoughts on this approach.

Cheers Mike H



Consider pocket screws (Kreg jig), with or without the rabbet. I like to
use rabbets myself. Adds some strength and makes alignment easier at
assembly. All in all, easier than biscuits IMHO.

--
********
Bill Pounds
http://www.billpounds.com