What if you only want to attend the show one day, does one have to still
spend 10 bucks? I can't see spending 10 dollars for one day. What can you
possibly see in 3 days that you can't see in one day?
The venders/exhibitors should be the only ones that should pay. Why should
us woodworkers pay - to spend our own money? We are paying for their
advertising/space, not them. To begin with, the vendors have there
advertising costs already built into the cost of their product before they
ever get to the show/s.
My 2 cents worth.

"Bob" wrote in message
news:ajeCd.273862$5K2.48988@attbi_s03...
What if you only want to attend the show one day, does one have to still
spend 10 bucks? I can't see spending 10 dollars for one day. What can you
possibly see in 3 days that you can't see in one day?
The venders/exhibitors should be the only ones that should pay. Why
should
us woodworkers pay - to spend our own money? We are paying for their
advertising/space, not them. To begin with, the vendors have there
advertising costs already built into the cost of their product before they
ever get to the show/s.
My 2 cents worth.


IIRC it used to be $10 per day per person. Now you can bring a spouse for
free on 1 day.
IMHO the parking fees should be removed. Also IMHO having all the vendors
showing their products in 1 place is well worth the expense of getting into
the show. Beats the heck out of spending a few day driving all over town to
see each product individually.

Bob states:

What if you only want to attend the show one day, does one have to still
spend 10 bucks? I can't see spending 10 dollars for one day. What can you
possibly see in 3 days that you can't see in one day?

Fair enough. But some day, go to the Atlanta version of IWF, and then come back
and tell us what you can see in one day so that you don't need three.

Charlie Self
"A politician is an animal which can sit on a fence and yet keep both ears to
the ground." H. L. Mencken

If they hall didn't charge for parking and the show didn't charge
addmission, there wouldn't be any show. In my real life I have a long
history of exhbiting and hosting events like this and trust me, nobody
is getting rich on this.

As long as we are willing to pay, they will keep having the shows. I
went to my local version and was mostly dissapointed, I was hoping for
more commercial grade stuff. Anyway, even though dissapointed, I think
I'll lilely go to the next one. Cost me about the same as two copies of
FWW mag, and probably got about as much from it.

I tend to go just to see the new stuff. The cost is the least important
part of my decision to go. The prices are usually better on terminal
supplies and I generally spend more that I should anyway. Sometimes the
heavy stuff is priced to sell as well.

Dave

"Bob" wrote in message
news:ajeCd.273862$5K2.48988@attbi_s03...
What if you only want to attend the show one day, does one have to still
spend 10 bucks? I can't see spending 10 dollars for one day. What can you
possibly see in 3 days that you can't see in one day?
The venders/exhibitors should be the only ones that should pay. Why
should
us woodworkers pay - to spend our own money? We are paying for their
advertising/space, not them. To begin with, the vendors have there
advertising costs already built into the cost of their product before they
ever get to the show/s.
My 2 cents worth.

I think the parking fee is a site issue. The show I've attended, in
Syracuse, NY is held at the NY State Fairgrounds and parking was free.

-Keith

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 16:48:27 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


"Bob" wrote in message
news:ajeCd.273862$5K2.48988@attbi_s03...
What if you only want to attend the show one day, does one have to still
spend 10 bucks? I can't see spending 10 dollars for one day. What can you
possibly see in 3 days that you can't see in one day?
The venders/exhibitors should be the only ones that should pay. Why
should
us woodworkers pay - to spend our own money? We are paying for their
advertising/space, not them. To begin with, the vendors have there
advertising costs already built into the cost of their product before they
ever get to the show/s.
My 2 cents worth.


IIRC it used to be $10 per day per person. Now you can bring a spouse for
free on 1 day.
IMHO the parking fees should be removed. Also IMHO having all the vendors
showing their products in 1 place is well worth the expense of getting into
the show. Beats the heck out of spending a few day driving all over town to
see each product individually.

At least one benefit of it is that it keeps away the people that
shouldn't be there. This was a problem with Comdex (computer show) in
Vegas - it was much too easy to find free tickets and any joe schmoe
got in there and clogged up the aisles for those who really were in the
trade.

Shawn

Bob wrote:
What if you only want to attend the show one day, does one have to
still
spend 10 bucks? I can't see spending 10 dollars for one day. What
can you
possibly see in 3 days that you can't see in one day?
The venders/exhibitors should be the only ones that should pay. Why
should
us woodworkers pay - to spend our own money? We are paying for their
advertising/space, not them. To begin with, the vendors have there
advertising costs already built into the cost of their product before
they
ever get to the show/s.
My 2 cents worth.

=20
"Charlie Self" wrote in message =
...
| Bob states:
| SNIP
| "A politician is an animal which can sit on a fence and yet keep both =
ears to
| the ground." H. L. Mencken

Do the requisite long ears intimate the politician is somehow related to =
a jackass ??=20



--=20

PDQ
--

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 16:22:30 GMT, "Bob" wrote:

What if you only want to attend the show one day, does one have to still
spend 10 bucks? I can't see spending 10 dollars for one day. What can you
possibly see in 3 days that you can't see in one day?
The venders/exhibitors should be the only ones that should pay. Why should
us woodworkers pay - to spend our own money? We are paying for their
advertising/space, not them. To begin with, the vendors have there
advertising costs already built into the cost of their product before they
ever get to the show/s.
My 2 cents worth.


I pass on woodworking shows. It was just too expensive to look at
vendor displays. It had a $8 admission, $7 for parking, 85 miles
round trip driving, plus I'd have to take a vacation day. I do enjoy
the free local craft and arts street fairs, where you get to watch
some woodworkers in action.

"Bob" wrote in message
news:ajeCd.273862$5K2.48988@attbi_s03...
What if you only want to attend the show one day, does one have to still
spend 10 bucks? I can't see spending 10 dollars for one day. What can you
possibly see in 3 days that you can't see in one day?
The venders/exhibitors should be the only ones that should pay. Why
should
us woodworkers pay - to spend our own money? We are paying for their
advertising/space, not them. To begin with, the vendors have there
advertising costs already built into the cost of their product before they
ever get to the show/s.
My 2 cents worth.

I spoke to my local Rockler manager about a week ago and the topic of the
woodworking show came up. She told me that they made a grand total of
something like $40 at the last show. So, as someone else mentioned,
nobody's getting rich.

By the way, for those attending the Chicago show, there are a couple of
changes for this year. First, it's being held Feb 4-6, instead of in April.
It's also moving from the Odeum in Villa Park to the Donald E. Stephens
Convention Center (formerly the Rosemont Convention Center). That doesn't
bode well for me, since I lived close to Villa Park and would just have the
little woman drop me off and pick me up again. I hate paying for parking,
and the $10-15 it's going to cost to park in Rosemont might get me to stay
home.

todd

On 03 Jan 2005 18:38:13 GMT, DY (Tom) wrote:


It's what the market will bear. You _may_ change the market by not attending
their shows. Tom


Agreed.

If you have ever worked trade shows you will quickly learn the worst show in
the world is the one with free admission. Every jerk, bum and weirdo with
nothing to do attends a show like this. I can remember the first, last and only
free boat show I worked at. The standard reply to a sales picth was:" Those
are really nice but I don't even have a boat." The admission fee not only
helps the promoter make a living but qualifies most of the attendees. Leigh @
MarMachine

I am looking to purchase an Incra setup in the near future. Anyone
know if they discount their product at the show? It's not a short trip
for me to get to one but this would certainly make it more worth my
while.

Thanks
Daryl

"Todd Fatheree" wrote in message
news:ZbGdnR6XT7plQkTcRVn-
I spoke to my local Rockler manager about a week ago and the topic of the
woodworking show came up. She told me that they made a grand total of
something like $40 at the last show. So, as someone else mentioned,
nobody's getting rich.


They can only hope that people saw what they had to offer and will patronize
them during the years.

Exhibitors pay to exhibit at the shows and often have hefty expenses for
lodging, shipping displays, etc. If they need electrical hookups other than
for a light, they pay extra, possibly hundreds of dollars.

Some have product to sell at the show and I did get a good deal on the Ridge
Carbide 40T blade and the 8" dado. If what you are interested in is
exhibited, it is a good opportunity to see brand X and then see brand Y and
go back to compare brand X again and not have to drive across town. Last
year, there were no Delta or Jet saws that I saw.

There are discount coupons available in many cases. Figure 48 each to get
in, $5 for parking. breakfast on the way, lunch/dinner on the way home, and
a stop at the mall so your wife can buy something because you just spent
$400 on new toys.

Will I go this year? If the sun is shining, too cold to work in the shop
and nothing else pressing.

Not a good place to pick up chicks though, but if you are into middle aged
balding guys with a gut, this is the place to be!

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
m...

"Todd Fatheree" wrote in message
news:ZbGdnR6XT7plQkTcRVn-
I spoke to my local Rockler manager about a week ago and the topic of
the
woodworking show came up. She told me that they made a grand total of
something like $40 at the last show. So, as someone else mentioned,
nobody's getting rich.


They can only hope that people saw what they had to offer and will
patronize
them during the years.

Exhibitors pay to exhibit at the shows and often have hefty expenses for
lodging, shipping displays, etc. If they need electrical hookups other
than
for a light, they pay extra, possibly hundreds of dollars.

Some have product to sell at the show and I did get a good deal on the
Ridge
Carbide 40T blade and the 8" dado. If what you are interested in is
exhibited, it is a good opportunity to see brand X and then see brand Y
and
go back to compare brand X again and not have to drive across town. Last
year, there were no Delta or Jet saws that I saw.

There are discount coupons available in many cases. Figure 48 each to get
in, $5 for parking. breakfast on the way, lunch/dinner on the way home,
and
a stop at the mall so your wife can buy something because you just spent
$400 on new toys.

Will I go this year? If the sun is shining, too cold to work in the shop
and nothing else pressing.

Not a good place to pick up chicks though, but if you are into middle aged
balding guys with a gut, this is the place to be!



Hurl! You had to go and throw that last line in there, didn't ya? Well, on
second thought, we do seem to have attracted a new poster from the softer
side of life, so maybe Glenna will find that meaningful...
--

-Mike-

Phisherman wrote:

I pass on woodworking shows. It was just too expensive to look at
vendor displays. It had a $8 admission, $7 for parking, 85 miles
round trip driving, plus I'd have to take a vacation day. I do enjoy
the free local craft and arts street fairs, where you get to watch
some woodworkers in action.

It's been a couple of year since "The Woodworking Show" was in Buffalo. The
last time the show was help the major tool vendors decided the show wasn't
promoted enough in the area and boycotted the thing and held their own show on
the same days at one of the local tool distributor's location. "The Woodworking
Show" hasn't been back since.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)

writes:

Hurl! You had to go and throw that last line in there, didn't ya? Well,
on
second thought, we do seem to have attracted a new poster from the softer
side of life, so maybe Glenna will find that meaningful...
--

LOL!!! So you've been watching my bathroom scale creep up over the last
20+ years! Softer, indeed.

Actually, I would enjoy it somewhat, as I would enjoy a heavy equipment
exhibition (used to want to go to the one in Las Vegas). When I first
started building cabinets (1978-ish), guys just didn't take us gals
seriously. When I was remodeling my kitchen, I was buying the standards
(steel strips) for the cabinets when the guy at the lumber store realized
*I* was the one doing the work. He thought it was my husband even though
he never saw my husband. Geez. I met very few other ladies who did any
woodworking, but they were around. I mention the heavy equipment because
when I first started working in a construction office, men just didn't
want to talk to "a woman." My first two long-term (for construction) jobs
were working for men who realized how beneficial the attention to detail a
woman (not necessarily all women!) can bring to the job. No one talked to
the boss without talking to me first, both of them would just give the
phone back to me if someone got through to them without talking to me;
some men were quite offended but it surely helped pave the way for females
who came after.

It's not at all unusual now for men to fully accept women in construction
related activities which was *not* the case 20 and 30 years ago. All of
this said because some of us get quite a kick out of attending something
like that and knowing what is going on (at least in some areas) and seeing
some ol' timer eat crow after trying to make us look dumb in front of his
buddies. (Yes, I do admit to baiting a particularly disagreeable
individual from time to time.) Last spring, I dragged a friend to the
Toyota dealer to look at the Prius and test drive it. When the salesman
was done making his pitch (giving out misinformation quite plentifully),
after the drive, he asked me (thinking I was the "little woman") what I
thought of the car. LOL - When I got done with about half a dozen
sentences, he said, "You know more about this car than I do, you ought to
be selling them." I told him to never, never underestimate his customers,
male or female, that it was best to not be condescending and to be aware
that women do, indeed, control a great deal of buying power in our
country. It's usually the young ones, or the real old-timers, that are
like that. My boss who died in 2000, was like that the first few months I
worked for him. When he died, his daughter told me, "You are the only
woman my dad ever respected," which was a major compliment for an old-time
general contractor (though it took years for him to accept me as an
equal). He used to delight in attending construction meetings and turning
to me when he was asked a question, just to see the expression on the
questioner's face when I answered.g There's an art to remaining feminine
in what is primarily a man's world and not develop a hard edge.

Come to think of it, a lot of those contractors are balding middle-aged
guys with guts. LOL

But, no, thank you, not interested except for possibly amusement by asking
questions and see what kinds of answers they give, and their attitude
towards "the little lady" asking. I'm not an equipment operator, but I
could do an earth take-off as well as bombarding the engineers asking for
details omitted from the drawings and asking exactly where the 10" sewer
pipe does connect to what catchbasin, and where is that elevation anyway.
(They love that when it comes from a woman! Not.) I truly enjoy working
with wood, but my knowledge is limited (just learned what I needed for the
project at hand), a finish carpenter I am not, strictly utility
woodworking, for now but someday . . .

Then when I have my yard and house the way I want it, I'll meet Mr.
Wonderful and move to Australia for the rest of our days (as if I could
"change" to live with another person at this stage of life). I've already
had the love-of-my-life (twice) so the shows wouldn't be a meeting
place.g 'Sides, grocery stores are better for guys to meet gals, my ex
met all of his girlfriends at grocery stores. LOL

Seriously, it's nice to see there are other ladies reading the group (and
posting sometimes as well). Like digital video, they are there, they just
aren't as visible.

After seeing that absolutely beautiful jewelry box one poster made his
daughter, I think perhaps by the time my granddaughters are old enough to
appreciate something like that, I will have the skill to make one a bit
less grand. My first future high-quality project will be a cedar chest
for my youngest granddaughter, hopefully with her name and birthdate
inlaid on the top. But that's a long way off and many questions away (and
sandwiched in between all of my other interests).

Glenna
totally fascinated with many of
the projects by this group
(and, darn, it's tooooo cold to
work in the garage this week!)

Glenna,

You should come to Long Island. We have a handfull of female woodworkers in
the club, but I'd always like to see more. There's a group of us that have
taken restoration classes at FIT in NYC. May of the classes have more women
than men in them. The ladies are all ranges of skills, but there are some
that are serious craftsmen (sorry, just don't know another word for it.). I
think in fine woodworking its more of one's ability to develope hand eye
skills than one's bruit force. Granded when it's time to pick up a 4x8 sheet
of 3/4" MDF, the bruit force helps, hahahaha.

Bernie

"Glenna Rose" wrote in message
news:fc.003d094101dfe9683b9aca0097d31d65.1dfe9e6@p mug.org...
writes:

Hurl! You had to go and throw that last line in there, didn't ya? Well,
on
second thought, we do seem to have attracted a new poster from the softer
side of life, so maybe Glenna will find that meaningful...
--

LOL!!! So you've been watching my bathroom scale creep up over the last
20+ years! Softer, indeed.

Actually, I would enjoy it somewhat, as I would enjoy a heavy equipment
exhibition (used to want to go to the one in Las Vegas). When I first
started building cabinets (1978-ish), guys just didn't take us gals
seriously. When I was remodeling my kitchen, I was buying the standards
(steel strips) for the cabinets when the guy at the lumber store realized
*I* was the one doing the work. He thought it was my husband even though
he never saw my husband. Geez. I met very few other ladies who did any
woodworking, but they were around. I mention the heavy equipment because
when I first started working in a construction office, men just didn't
want to talk to "a woman." My first two long-term (for construction) jobs
were working for men who realized how beneficial the attention to detail a
woman (not necessarily all women!) can bring to the job. No one talked to
the boss without talking to me first, both of them would just give the
phone back to me if someone got through to them without talking to me;
some men were quite offended but it surely helped pave the way for females
who came after.

It's not at all unusual now for men to fully accept women in construction
related activities which was *not* the case 20 and 30 years ago. All of
this said because some of us get quite a kick out of attending something
like that and knowing what is going on (at least in some areas) and seeing
some ol' timer eat crow after trying to make us look dumb in front of his
buddies. (Yes, I do admit to baiting a particularly disagreeable
individual from time to time.) Last spring, I dragged a friend to the
Toyota dealer to look at the Prius and test drive it. When the salesman
was done making his pitch (giving out misinformation quite plentifully),
after the drive, he asked me (thinking I was the "little woman") what I
thought of the car. LOL - When I got done with about half a dozen
sentences, he said, "You know more about this car than I do, you ought to
be selling them." I told him to never, never underestimate his customers,
male or female, that it was best to not be condescending and to be aware
that women do, indeed, control a great deal of buying power in our
country. It's usually the young ones, or the real old-timers, that are
like that. My boss who died in 2000, was like that the first few months I
worked for him. When he died, his daughter told me, "You are the only
woman my dad ever respected," which was a major compliment for an old-time
general contractor (though it took years for him to accept me as an
equal). He used to delight in attending construction meetings and turning
to me when he was asked a question, just to see the expression on the
questioner's face when I answered.g There's an art to remaining feminine
in what is primarily a man's world and not develop a hard edge.

Come to think of it, a lot of those contractors are balding middle-aged
guys with guts. LOL

But, no, thank you, not interested except for possibly amusement by asking
questions and see what kinds of answers they give, and their attitude
towards "the little lady" asking. I'm not an equipment operator, but I
could do an earth take-off as well as bombarding the engineers asking for
details omitted from the drawings and asking exactly where the 10" sewer
pipe does connect to what catchbasin, and where is that elevation anyway.
(They love that when it comes from a woman! Not.) I truly enjoy working
with wood, but my knowledge is limited (just learned what I needed for the
project at hand), a finish carpenter I am not, strictly utility
woodworking, for now but someday . . .

Then when I have my yard and house the way I want it, I'll meet Mr.
Wonderful and move to Australia for the rest of our days (as if I could
"change" to live with another person at this stage of life). I've already
had the love-of-my-life (twice) so the shows wouldn't be a meeting
place.g 'Sides, grocery stores are better for guys to meet gals, my ex
met all of his girlfriends at grocery stores. LOL

Seriously, it's nice to see there are other ladies reading the group (and
posting sometimes as well). Like digital video, they are there, they just
aren't as visible.

After seeing that absolutely beautiful jewelry box one poster made his
daughter, I think perhaps by the time my granddaughters are old enough to
appreciate something like that, I will have the skill to make one a bit
less grand. My first future high-quality project will be a cedar chest
for my youngest granddaughter, hopefully with her name and birthdate
inlaid on the top. But that's a long way off and many questions away (and
sandwiched in between all of my other interests).

Glenna
totally fascinated with many of
the projects by this group
(and, darn, it's tooooo cold to
work in the garage this week!)

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 16:22:30 GMT, "Bob" wrote:

The venders/exhibitors should be the only ones that should pay. Why should
us woodworkers pay

Because if you do that, you see stalls from the big-name machinery
dealers you've heard of before, and you don't get people like Steve
Knight there with something interesting.

It's often far from cheap to have one of those stalls.

"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 16:22:30 GMT, "Bob" wrote:

The venders/exhibitors should be the only ones that should pay. Why
should
us woodworkers pay

Because if you do that, you see stalls from the big-name machinery
dealers you've heard of before, and you don't get people like Steve
Knight there with something interesting.

It's often far from cheap to have one of those stalls.

Very good point. It is very expensive to go to a show, ship in booths and
equipment, pay people to staff them, etc.

OTOH, the manufacturers don't pay for any of it. Woodworkers do when they
buy the products. Any time you think Budweiser is paying for those big buck
superbowl commercials, just look at what you are paying for colored
carbonated water.

Ed Pawlowski writes:

It is very expensive to go to a show, ship in booths and
equipment, pay people to staff them, etc.

OTOH, the manufacturers don't pay for any of it. Woodworkers do when they
buy the products. Any time you think Budweiser is paying for those big buck
superbowl commercials, just look at what you are paying for colored
carbonated water.

Yabbut for the little guy, the cash layout can be prohibitive, so getting that
cut by charging attendees is an effective device to help growing companies and
to spread the knowledge base exhibited in the show.

As an example, the National Hardware Show had been held in Chicago for decades.
For varous reasons, including unions and general greed, costs for putting on
the show kept rising, until it wasn't only the little guys backing out. For
decades, it was difficult to impossible to get even a small booth. Then, one
year not long ago, people realized that an awful lot of those 10K 8x10 booths
were empty. After that, Stanley cut back and B&D/DeWalt was a drop out, Delta
cut their booth size, and zing. All of a sudden...there were two shows. One in
Chi, one in Vegas.

Now, it appears the Vegas venue has won out. It is a great deal cheaper (nice
to not have to fork over $200 a night for a hotel room--including nearly 15% in
extra taxes--within the range of the bus routes to the show, for one thing, and
the 10 buck pizza slices [nasty stuff, too] are a thing of the past). Of
course, now my wife wants to go, too, so there go the expenses again.

Charlie Self
"One of the common denominators I have found is that expectations rise above
that which is expected." George W. Bush

snip

As an example, the National Hardware Show had been held in Chicago for
decades.
For varous reasons, including unions and general greed, costs for putting
on
the show kept rising, until it wasn't only the little guys backing out.
For
decades, it was difficult to impossible to get even a small booth. Then,
one
year not long ago, people realized that an awful lot of those 10K 8x10
booths
were empty. After that, Stanley cut back and B&D/DeWalt was a drop out,
Delta
cut their booth size, and zing. All of a sudden...there were two shows.
One in
Chi, one in Vegas.
snip


From an exhibitors standpoint - the NHS in Chicago evolved into legalized
extortion...

The internet has had a tremendous impact on the nature/need for trade
shows...many are moving to a bi-annual schedule...

Cheers -

Rob

"Robin Lee" wrote in message


From an exhibitors standpoint - the NHS in Chicago evolved into legalized
extortion...


You mean the $40 to plug your lights into the receptacle you paid $100 to
have there? Of the $150 to unroll the carpet you shipped in? and the
charges to vacuum your carpet, empty your trash can and on and on . . . . .
..
Don't touch that wire or five unions will be on the picket line.
Ed

Robin Lee wrote:
The internet has had a tremendous impact on the nature/need for trade
shows...many are moving to a bi-annual schedule...


Hey Robin, are you saying that the Internet is making it
less needful to be going on the road?

UA100

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:31:12 -0600, Patriarch
wrote:

Every trade show in Chicago turned into legalized extortion.

It's _Chicago_ ! What do you expect ? It's like going to Houston
and complaining about the heat.

Andy Dingley wrote in
:

It's _Chicago_ ! What do you expect ?

Great pizza. Excellent hot dogs. Losing baseball teams. Wind.

Patriarch

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
news:lPfFd.15959$7b.11953@trndny04...

"Robin Lee" wrote in message


From an exhibitors standpoint - the NHS in Chicago evolved into
legalized
extortion...


You mean the $40 to plug your lights into the receptacle you paid $100 to
have there? Of the $150 to unroll the carpet you shipped in? and the
charges to vacuum your carpet, empty your trash can and on and on . . . .
..
.
Don't touch that wire or five unions will be on the picket line.
Ed

Hey - you've been there before!

It actually took four people to install (plug in) a light in one of our
booths once...

A driver
A shipper receiver
An electrician
A Decorator

Cheers -

Rob

"Unisaw A100" wrote in message
...
Robin Lee wrote:
The internet has had a tremendous impact on the nature/need for trade
shows...many are moving to a bi-annual schedule...


Hey Robin, are you saying that the Internet is making it
less needful to be going on the road?

UA100

Hi -

Sort of -

In a way, it makes trade shows much more effective too...the yield is
higher, which takes a lot more time to process...

Give you an example...

1) Hit the show website
2) download Exhibitor list (or copy into Excel)
3) perform a look-up on internal vendor list
4) plot, plan, schedule meetings with appropriate current
vendors...typically using on-line floorplans
5) research known sourcing needs in advance, and prioritize booth visits...

It much easier to do now, and a big show can provide more info/contacts than
one can deal with in a year....

Cheers -

Rob

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:55:34 -0600, Patriarch
wrote:

Great pizza. Excellent hot dogs. Losing baseball teams. Wind.

Cut down on the hot dogs then.