Hiya,
I've been using Titebond II pretty much exclusively for all my projects the
past few years. I posted a while back
that I had problems with the glue after finishing when it crept. I kind of
put it in the back of my mind thinking that maybe
temperature had been the culprit (I glued up pretty close to their lower
limit).

Well, today I wandered by one of my projects, a cherry bed built about 3
years ago and low and behold, I have glue creep.
Now this thing was built in the summer and I took my sweet time with it
(meaning I didn't glue up and start sanding within the
first 12 hours....more like days between the glue up and futher working of
it). What's going on here? Am I the only one with this
issue? Could the glue be "spoiled" (ie. age wise)? I'm pretty ticked off
as I noticed I have this problem on just about every
other project around the house as well. Is there another glue that folks
recommend (yellow or white preferably). Thanks
for the rant!
Cheers,
cc

Define Glue Creep.

Can you take photos? It would be very useful to see the exact
characteristics of what you are talking about.

I can't say that I have ever had an issue with TBII, but I have not
used it much. I use standard Titebond whenever I can. In the back of
my mind I always think that it is best to use the most tried and true
when you don't need the characteristics for which a specialty glue is
intended. A very good example is the use of polyurethane glues. Hate
that stuff. I only use it if I have to glue dissimilar materials to
wood or some examples of waterproof applications. It is messy on the
project and on your hands (if you don't use gloves).

Now you are making me wonder if there is any concern about Titebond
Extend. I am considering using that as my mainline glue because it
would give me added working time. Should I stick to my rule?

I'm using the term "Glue Creep" to describe what appears to be glue that
over time, has squeezed out between joints.
Not sure it's the correct terminology. Basically what I get, and this is
for edge glued stuff, is a slight ridge where the two boards
are joined that wasn't there when I built it. I can't take photos of it as
it's really too small to see but you can definitely feel
it as you rub your fingers over the joint. My method of edge glue ups goes
something like this. I joint my edges, set up the
clamps with cauls as needed, apply the glue, clamp the boards, and let sit
for anywhere from 12 hours to days. Afterwards,
I scrape the dried glue off and give the panel or whatever a good sanding
(or handplane sometimes) to the point where you cannot feel the joint with
your
fingers. I typically finish with a light coat of oil (linseed, watco,
tried and true, etc...) and then shellac. After all the finishing,
the joint is still as smooth as before. Months (or even years) later, I'm
getting this ridge where the joint is. I had this happen
once before on a box I made and the diagnosis from the group was I believe,
"Glue Creep". I took a scraper to it and very
gently removed it and sure enough it looked like dried glue.

Thanks for any help/advice!
Cheers,
cc

"Leon" wrote in message
m...
Define Glue Creep.

Mmmm. Are you sure it isn't the wood creeping? By that I mean that if
two pieces from the exact same board were not glued together, a
slightly different cut (say for example, one more plainsawn and the
other more quartersawn) might produce an edge situation like you
describe.

"James "Cubby" Culbertson" wrote in message
...
Hiya,
I've been using Titebond II pretty much exclusively for all my projects
the past few years. I posted a while back
....
Well, today I wandered by one of my projects, a cherry bed built about 3
years ago and low and behold, I have glue creep.

It's sort of the accepted thing on instrument (guitar, etc...) making forums
(like mimf.com) that Titebond II is not suitable for instruments because of
glue creep. Hide glue (the ground stuff that you mix fresh yourself, not
the pre-bottled stuff) and original Titebond are probably the most two most
common glues used for building instruments. But when they talk about "glue
creep" it usually means that the joint is moving, not that it's really
squeezing the glue out of the joint.

Jon

James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote:

Hiya,
I've been using Titebond II pretty much exclusively for all my projects
the
past few years. I posted a while back
that I had problems with the glue after finishing when it crept. I kind
of put it in the back of my mind thinking that maybe
temperature had been the culprit (I glued up pretty close to their lower
limit).

Well, today I wandered by one of my projects, a cherry bed built about 3
years ago and low and behold, I have glue creep.
Now this thing was built in the summer and I took my sweet time with it
(meaning I didn't glue up and start sanding within the
first 12 hours....more like days between the glue up and futher working of
it). What's going on here? Am I the only one with this
issue? Could the glue be "spoiled" (ie. age wise)? I'm pretty ticked
off as I noticed I have this problem on just about every
other project around the house as well. Is there another glue that folks
recommend (yellow or white preferably). Thanks
for the rant!

Any "white" glue will creep under sustained load. The solutions are to
design your structure so that there is no shear load on the glue joints or
to use a different type of glue (plastic resin or phenol-formaldehyde for
example) that does not creep under sustained load.

Cheers,
cc

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"James "Cubby" Culbertson" wrote in message
...
Hiya,
I've been using Titebond II pretty much exclusively for all my projects
the
past few years. I posted a while back
that I had problems with the glue after finishing when it crept. I kind
of
put it in the back of my mind thinking that maybe
temperature had been the culprit (I glued up pretty close to their lower
limit).

Well, today I wandered by one of my projects, a cherry bed built about 3
years ago and low and behold, I have glue creep.
Now this thing was built in the summer and I took my sweet time with it
(meaning I didn't glue up and start sanding within the
first 12 hours....more like days between the glue up and futher working of
it). What's going on here? Am I the only one with this
issue? Could the glue be "spoiled" (ie. age wise)? I'm pretty ticked
off
as I noticed I have this problem on just about every
other project around the house as well. Is there another glue that folks
recommend (yellow or white preferably). Thanks
for the rant!
Cheers,
cc


I am beginning to wonder if it has something to do with clamp pressure. and
the quality of the joining of the boards. From all accounts white and yellow
glues do "creep". So if clamp excessive clamp pressure is used to ensure
squeeze out the jointed edge is in compression ,some areas more than others
.. When the clamps are released the compressive load is gone but in the joint
"valleys" there will remain in fact a tension load which over time will be
allieviated by glue "creep".

I dont know the solution other than using hide glue where. most joints of
this type were "rubbed" joints requiring no clamp pressure.....mjh .

Subject: Titebond II, am I the only one with issues?
From: "James \"Cubby\"

If you have the time, call the company,
They're the real experts on the subject.

Some have described a problem when sanding prematurely after glue-up.
Gluing introduces moisture into the wood and sanding too soon after
clamp removal removes wet wood from the joint and after the moisture
departs the wood has "shrunk" leaving the glue line proud.

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:39:12 GMT, TWS wrote:

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 21:37:01 -0700, "James \"Cubby\" Culbertson"
wrote:

snip
... After all the finishing,
the joint is still as smooth as before. Months (or even years) later, I'm
getting this ridge where the joint is. I had this happen
once before on a box I made and the diagnosis from the group was I believe,
"Glue Creep". I took a scraper to it and very
gently removed it and sure enough it looked like dried glue.

I haven't experienced the problem you are citing but one possible
explanation is that the wood was not totally dry when you did the glue
up. Over time the wood will shrink but the glued edge will shrink
less due to the wood cells being soaked with glue. Basically the glue
saturated cells will feel like a ridge.

One way to check this is with a caliper if you are confident in the
'final' dimension of your boards. The 'ridge' would be virtually the
same as your 'final' dimension and the base wood would be thinner.

TWS

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 21:37:01 -0700, "James \"Cubby\" Culbertson"
wrote:

snip
... After all the finishing,
the joint is still as smooth as before. Months (or even years) later, I'm
getting this ridge where the joint is. I had this happen
once before on a box I made and the diagnosis from the group was I believe,
"Glue Creep". I took a scraper to it and very
gently removed it and sure enough it looked like dried glue.

I haven't experienced the problem you are citing but one possible
explanation is that the wood was not totally dry when you did the glue
up. Over time the wood will shrink but the glued edge will shrink
less due to the wood cells being soaked with glue. Basically the glue
saturated cells will feel like a ridge.

One way to check this is with a caliper if you are confident in the
'final' dimension of your boards. The 'ridge' would be virtually the
same as your 'final' dimension and the base wood would be thinner.

TWS

I can't take photos of it as
it's really too small to see but you can definitely feel
it as you rub your fingers over the joint.
If it is too small to see, why do you care about it?

"James "Cubby" Culbertson" wrote in message
...
I'm using the term "Glue Creep" to describe what appears to be glue that
over time, has squeezed out between joints.
Not sure it's the correct terminology. Basically what I get, and this is
for edge glued stuff, is a slight ridge where the two boards
are joined that wasn't there when I built it. I can't take photos of it
as it's really too small to see but you can definitely feel
it as you rub your fingers over the joint.

That really sounds more like the wood expanding and or contracting. That is
perfectly normal.

wrote:

....
... use of polyurethane glues...only use it if I have to ...

BTW, I've been using Type III for the barn restoration for exterior
work...so far, it seems to hold up well and is immeasureably easier to
use than the polyurethanes--significantly cheaper as well, although
about twice the cost of Type I

I'd stay w/ Type I yellow glues for interior furniture work myself
unless there were a reason...

I've used the extended open glues for special purposes w/ no observable
problems, but those have been very unusual cases.

"James "Cubby" Culbertson" wrote in message
...
I posted a while back that I had problems with the glue after finishing
when it crept.
I have glue creep.
Now this thing was built in the summer and I took my sweet time with it
(meaning I didn't glue up and start sanding within the

James,
The common definition of glue creep is during the clamping process, the
pieces may tend to move on non-mechanically aided joints.

After the glue, any common wood glue, sets it will not creep. What you are
describing is seasonal wood movement. Very common. Design and construction
techniques can eliminate or hide this common problem to all woodworkers.

Dave

James \"Cubby\" Culbertson wrote:

I'm using the term "Glue Creep" to describe what appears to be glue that
over time, has squeezed out between joints.

snip

Are you sure it's glue creep and not wood movement. PVA glue does not expand or
contract with humidity changes. Wood does. Another thing that might cause the
problem is not allowing enough time for the wood to acclimatize to the
environment (where it will reside) before glue up.

Check the piece when the humidity is high and see if the glue line is still
proud of the wood.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...


I'd stay w/ Type I yellow glues for interior furniture work myself
unless there were a reason...

I've used the extended open glues for special purposes w/ no observable
problems, but those have been very unusual cases.

I think I am going to switch to TBIII for everything. Franklin sent me a
case of the it to evaluate and with 3 bottles left I am beginning to like
it. I was not real fond of it in the beginning as the open time seemed
shorter and the glue seems a bit thicker but I find with it being thicker
that it is less likely to run and it dries to a medium dark brown color as
opposed to yellow. The cured color tends to blend better with the color of
the wood than TBII. This is more important to me where normally I am not
concerned with a bit of squeeze out showing. But if the squeeze out is less
noticeable, all the better.

Leon said:
I think I am going to switch to TBIII for everything.

I too like it better and now use it almost exclusively. Its a good product.

Dave

Leon wrote:

"DuanElmerrth" wrote in message
...


I'd stay w/ Type I yellow glues for interior furniture work myself
unless there were a reason...

I've used the extended open glues for special purposes w/ no observable
problems, but those have been very unusual cases.

I think I am going to switch to TBIII for everything. Franklin sent me a
case of the it to evaluate and with 3 bottles left I am beginning to like
it. I was not real fond of it in the beginning as the open time seemed
shorter and the glue seems a bit thicker but I find with it being thicker
that it is less likely to run and it dries to a medium dark brown color as
opposed to yellow. The cured color tends to blend better with the color
of
the wood than TBII. This is more important to me where normally I am not
concerned with a bit of squeeze out showing. But if the squeeze out is
less noticeable, all the better.

I switched to using probond a while ago, and haven't had any complanits
about it, there indoor/outdoor isn't to bad price wise and seems to hold up
really well, on both indoor and outdoor projects

I thought "creep" meant the gradual inelastic deformation of a
material as a result of constant applied load below the material's
yield point, or something like that, anyway.


--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland

"Richard Clements" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:

I switched to using probond a while ago, and haven't had any complanits
about it, there indoor/outdoor isn't to bad price wise and seems to hold
up
really well, on both indoor and outdoor projects

ProBond Carpenters glue? Yeah that is good also and I prefer it in the
Summer plus the container is perfect for refilling. During the Winter it
is way too thick for my liking.

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...
Lawrence Wasserman responds:

I thought "creep" meant the gradual inelastic deformation of a
material as a result of constant applied load below the material's
yield point, or something like that, anyway.

Me, too. Supposedly, creep is helpful for wood joints that need to flex a
bit,
as in chairs.

Or joints that are end grain glued to side grain.

TeamCasa wrote:

....
The common definition of glue creep is during the clamping process, the
pieces may tend to move on non-mechanically aided joints.

After the glue, any common wood glue, sets it will not creep. What you are
describing is seasonal wood movement. Very common. Design and construction
techniques can eliminate or hide this common problem to all woodworkers.

That's not the common definition I'm aware of...creep is the gradual
shift of two pieces relative to each other under long term loading and
is a potential problem w/ any non-hard glue.

You're right that proud glue lines are not creep but the result of
differential expansion from temperature or more commonly moisture...

In article , "James \"Cubby\"
Culbertson" says...
'm using the term "Glue Creep" to describe what appears to be glue that
over time, has squeezed out between joints.
Not sure it's the correct terminology. Basically what I get, and this is
for edge glued stuff, is a slight ridge where the two boards
are joined that wasn't there when I built it.


One of the things I do (when I remember to do it) on edge gluing is to
scratch a little groove about a 32nd in from each edge of each board.
Then I keep the glue between the grooves. No squeezeout unless I use
way too much glue :-).

If what you're seeing is the result of wood movement, my method won't
help. Except if it's the wood shrinking and the glue not shrinking.

--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

Leon wrote:


"Richard Clements" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:

I switched to using probond a while ago, and haven't had any complanits
about it, there indoor/outdoor isn't to bad price wise and seems to hold
up
really well, on both indoor and outdoor projects

ProBond Carpenters glue? Yeah that is good also and I prefer it in the
Summer plus the container is perfect for refilling. During the Winter
it is way too thick for my liking.

I'm in my Garage, turn the heater on, no problems

"Lawrence Wasserman" wrote in message
...
I thought "creep" meant the gradual inelastic deformation of a
material as a result of constant applied load below the material's
yield point, or something like that, anyway.


--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland



where d'you learn all them long word frum.....mjh

Thanks folks for all the help. A few answers to some of the questions
popping up.
1. Wood being used is typically 5-7% moisture content. The wood is
seasoned in my garage for a few weeks.
Cut to rough dimension, sits another week or two, then I cut to final
dimension.
2. Clamping pressure is pretty minimal meaning I don't crank the heck out
of the
clamps.
3. My joints are nice and even before glue up and after. In fact, some of
them, with the grain
orientation etc... you cannot even see.

I've obviously misused the term "Glue Creep" as these are pieces that have
no stresses
on them in most cases. I suppose it's possible the moisture content might
swell the thickness
a bit but it just seems odd that none of the other furniture in the house
seems to have this
issue (not my construction). Using shellac as well, I wouldn't expect to
see moisture changes
at the joint although I may be wrong on that assessment. I suppose a more
accurate description is "Proud Joints".
I believe I'm jointing, gluing, clamping just like most folks so I guess my
question is now
becoming "Is this normal?".

Cheers,
cc

5-7% is pretty low for equilibrium moisture...where are you located? If
it's not in a very arid climate, I'd expect that the final moisture is,
in fact, higher and is a likely cause.

Sounds like your working is ok other than I suppose it might be possible
(although unlikely if you work anything like I do on fine work--not
enough time for that ) you are sanding near the joint too soon after
gluing and the excess moisture has swollen the joint somewhat so that
when it subsequently dries the glue line does stand a little proud of
the surface. Some moveement is not unheard of, for it to be extremely
prevelant indicates to me there's some difference in moisture
equilibrium between the working area and the finished pieces'
environment.

I notice the piece you mentioned was cherry and built in the summer...if
your summers are humid and you now are looking at very dry, heated
indoor air after a couple of years, I could see that...

Cubby wrote:

....
I'm in New Mexico. Humidity is negligible most of the time. Items
are being built in the garage and put inside the house approx. 20 feet
away. I do remember some pine I worked with at about 9% but generally
stuff get's pretty darned dry here.

Yep, I was guessing somewhere such as that...moutains or flatlander?
I'm in far SW KS and it's hard to get that dry here even...

Do you by any chance have a power humidifier hooked up to the central
heat?

I can only recomend perhaps waiting a little longer after you glue
before final sanding of the glue joint to see if that will help
equilibrium some. Even here I rarely have a problem.

Idea...Maybe try a couple of test pieces w/ Type I and II glues (and
maybe a couple of vendors' varieties as well) and see if you can tell
any difference between the glues and timing of various patterns of work.

OBTW, you are finishing both sides of the pieces, correct?

Duane Bozarth wrote:
5-7% is pretty low for equilibrium moisture...where are you located?
If
it's not in a very arid climate, I'd expect that the final moisture
is,
in fact, higher and is a likely cause.

Sounds like your working is ok other than I suppose it might be
possible
(although unlikely if you work anything like I do on fine work--not
enough time for that ) you are sanding near the joint too soon
after
gluing and the excess moisture has swollen the joint somewhat so that
when it subsequently dries the glue line does stand a little proud of
the surface. Some moveement is not unheard of, for it to be
extremely
prevelant indicates to me there's some difference in moisture
equilibrium between the working area and the finished pieces'
environment.

I notice the piece you mentioned was cherry and built in the
summer...if
your summers are humid and you now are looking at very dry, heated
indoor air after a couple of years, I could see that...

I'm in New Mexico. Humidity is negligible most of the time. Items
are being built in the garage and put inside the house approx. 20 feet
away. I do remember some pine I worked with at about 9% but generally
stuff get's pretty darned dry here.
cheers,
cc

No humidifier hooked up. I do have to say however, that humidity does
tend to swing quite a bit. Usually it's dry (say 15% most of the
summer) but rains come and jack that up for a week or so to say 30%.
Winters are usually pretty dry. I am finishing all the sides of the
pieces (obviously not the mortices/tenons). Just seems odd that the
boards move on my projects but not the other furniture.
cc

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 17:15:14 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


"Richard Clements" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:

I switched to using probond a while ago, and haven't had any complanits
about it, there indoor/outdoor isn't to bad price wise and seems to hold
up
really well, on both indoor and outdoor projects

ProBond Carpenters glue? Yeah that is good also and I prefer it in the
Summer plus the container is perfect for refilling. During the Winter it
is way too thick for my liking.


"Winter" in Houston? Isn't that like "winter" here in Tucson but with
humidity?

Cubby wrote:

No humidifier hooked up. I do have to say however, that humidity does
tend to swing quite a bit. Usually it's dry (say 15% most of the
summer) but rains come and jack that up for a week or so to say 30%.
Winters are usually pretty dry. I am finishing all the sides of the
pieces (obviously not the mortices/tenons). Just seems odd that the
boards move on my projects but not the other furniture.
cc

Most of your purchased furniture is probably finished w/ lacquer and
also probably uses heat-cured resin glues...

"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message

"Winter" in Houston? Isn't that like "winter" here in Tucson but with
humidity?

25 scheduled for tonight ... it will be colder here through Christmas (47
Hi) then the forecast for Tucson.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

Cause I can feel it. I don't like the fact that I have tops on a
nightstand where you can feel the joint.

"Chuck" wrote in message
oups.com...
I can't take photos of it as
it's really too small to see but you can definitely feel
it as you rub your fingers over the joint.
If it is too small to see, why do you care about it?