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Which Is Witch - A Halloween Wood Identification Quiz - Five Pix on ABPW
Almost everyone enjoys the Great Pumpkin of American Hardwoods - that
being Cherry. Unfortunately, not everyone can afford it and even those that can are often too impatient to wait for it to mellow out and darken naturally. When I was making cabinets for people I was often asked to provide a Cherry Look, without the price tag. I was also asked to apply a toner to real Cherry, to mimic the look it would have if left alone for ten years or so. The attachment contains five color samples. Two of them are Poplar. One of them is Birch Plywood. One of them is Solid Cherry. One of them is Cherry Plywood. The clearcoats are all nitro lacquer and I'm sorry to say that the samples have picked up some nasty scratches over time. Still, I think they provide a fair test. I'll post the answers in a day or two. Regards, Tom. "People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.) tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email) http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 |
Tom Watson wrote:
Cherry Look, without the price tag. I was also asked to apply a toner to real Cherry, to mimic the look it would have if left alone for ten years or so. Pretty ghastly, ain't it? At my uncle's place there's this massive, extremely ornate china cabinet made out of some near ebony-colored wood that has obviously had stain applied with a bucket. He bragged that it's solid cherry. Why?? WHY???????? I just don't get it. Why waste a thousand bucks worth of wood giving it a finish like that when you could achieve the same result with MDF and paint? I think if I were the guy doing that job for them I'd be tempted to stick the cherry in my basement and actually build the thing out of poplar or something. They'd never know the difference, and I would be preventing a great crime from being committed. Hell, I might even build it out of OAK. What do you reckon they'd ever notice? The attachment contains five color samples. Two of them are Poplar. One of them is Birch Plywood. One of them is Solid Cherry. One of them is Cherry Plywood. I'll post the answers in a day or two. If they're there, they aren't showing up here. I looked at ABPW with the usenet replayer thing (neither of my servers does binaries anymore) and all I see are some random tables and whatnots and a bunch of toy trains. -- Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621 http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/ http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/ |
In article ,
Tom Watson wrote: The attachment contains five color samples. Two of them are Poplar. One of them is Birch Plywood. One of them is Solid Cherry. One of them is Cherry Plywood. #1 is the real deal - it doesn't matter the ID of the others, they're just the ugly stepsisters trying to hitch a ride on the pumpkin. -- Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company ____ "To know the world intimately is the beginning of caring." -- Ann Hayman Zwinger |
On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 16:35:10 -0500, Tom Watson
calmly ranted: Almost everyone enjoys the Great Pumpkin of American Hardwoods - that being Cherry. I like the nutty brown color of cherry, not the gawdawful mess people call a "cherry finish", Tawm. Shame on you for actually staining cherry. That's a "karma demerits" offense, y'know. Unfortunately, not everyone can afford it and even those that can are often too impatient to wait for it to mellow out and darken naturally. When I was making cabinets for people I was often asked to provide a Cherry Look, without the price tag. I was also asked to apply a toner to real Cherry, to mimic the look it would have if left alone for ten years or so. So why didn't you tell them that you could set the wood in the sun for a couple days, then let them tell you when to build? The attachment contains five color samples. Two of them are Poplar. One of them is Birch Plywood. One of them is Solid Cherry. One of them is Cherry Plywood. All I can say is "Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww ww!" Wild Cherry flavor ain't purty at all. The answer to your challenge is: Who cares which was the real wood at this (discolored) point? I choose F) None of the above. -- "Given the low level of competence among politicians, every American should become a Libertarian." -- Charley Reese, Alameda Times-Star (California), June 17, 2003 |
On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 09:16:38 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote: The answer to your challenge is: cluck...cluck...cluck Regards, Tom. "People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.) tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email) http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 |
On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 16:35:10 -0500, Tom Watson
wrote: The attachment contains five color samples. Two of them are Poplar. One of them is Birch Plywood. One of them is Solid Cherry. One of them is Cherry Plywood. I think you forgot the attachment - at least it never made it over here. Tim Douglass http://www.DouglassClan.com |
1. Solid Poplar.
2. Solid Poplar. 3. Birch Ply. 4. Solid Cherry. 5. Cherry Ply. ;- Regards, Tom. "People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.) tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email) http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 |
On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 09:16:38 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote: I like the nutty brown color of cherry, not the gawdawful mess people call a "cherry finish", Tawm. Shame on you for actually staining cherry. That's a "karma demerits" offense, y'know. The customer is God. How's your bidness going? So why didn't you tell them that you could set the wood in the sun for a couple days, then let them tell you when to build? A thousand board feet for a cherry leebrary (library, dave) would be quite a sunbathing exhibition. All I can say is "Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww ww!" Wild Cherry flavor ain't purty at all. cf: The Customer Is God. The answer to your challenge is: Who cares which was the real wood at this (discolored) point? I choose F) None of the above. If'n you weren't sech a girlyman (insert party of choice, bob) ye'd be able to tell the real deal (i didn't really mean deal, andy) by the grain, pitch slashes, etc. cluck, cluck, cluck. Regards, Tom. "People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.) tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email) http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 |
In article ,
Tom Watson wrote: 1. Solid Poplar. Damn - I couldasworn. -- Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company ____ "To know the world intimately is the beginning of caring." -- Ann Hayman Zwinger |
"Fly-by-Night CC" wrote in message ... In article , Tom Watson wrote: 1. Solid Poplar. Damn - I couldasworn. That's what happens when you dip it in cherry Kool Aid. |
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 01:19:52 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote: That's what happens when you dip it in cherry Kool Aid. BTW - The original stain sample was copied from a desk in the Winterthur Museum, which had previously resided in Congress Hall in Philadelphia and was dated from the 1770's. You will find the same color, more or less, on the Goddard-Townsend highboys and shell desks. Of course, what did they know? Regards, Tom. "People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.) tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email) http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 |
"Tom Watson" wrote in message BTW - The original stain sample was copied from a desk in the Winterthur Museum, which had previously resided in Congress Hall in Philadelphia and was dated from the 1770's. You will find the same color, more or less, on the Goddard-Townsend highboys and shell desks. Of course, what did they know? I sure hope it looks better in person. On my screens both at home and at work, they look like cherry Kool Aid. |
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 18:39:17 -0500, Tom Watson
calmly ranted: On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 09:16:38 -0800, Larry Jaques wrote: I like the nutty brown color of cherry, not the gawdawful mess people call a "cherry finish", Tawm. Shame on you for actually staining cherry. That's a "karma demerits" offense, y'know. The customer is God. How's your bidness going? Well. Luckily, I'm not in the refinishing bidness. I can treat customers to their whims. So why didn't you tell them that you could set the wood in the sun for a couple days, then let them tell you when to build? A thousand board feet for a cherry leebrary (library, dave) would be quite a sunbathing exhibition. Rent out the suntan shop downtown for a couple hours? If'n you weren't sech a girlyman (insert party of choice, bob) ye'd be able to tell the real deal (i didn't really mean deal, andy) by the grain, pitch slashes, etc. cluck, cluck, cluck. My eyes got too red just looking at those samples. -- Music washes away from the soul the dust of everyday life. ---- --Unknown |
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 18:39:17 -0500, Tom Watson
wrote: On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 09:16:38 -0800, Larry Jaques wrote: I like the nutty brown color of cherry, not the gawdawful mess people call a "cherry finish", Tawm. Shame on you for actually staining cherry. That's a "karma demerits" offense, y'know. The customer is God. How's your bidness going? So why didn't you tell them that you could set the wood in the sun for a couple days, then let them tell you when to build? A thousand board feet for a cherry leebrary (library, dave) would be quite a sunbathing exhibition. This brings up a question. Here in Arizona it only takes a couple of days to get cherry to darken nicely in the sun. How long does it take in your neck of the woods. (And where are you?) All I can say is "Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww ww!" Wild Cherry flavor ain't purty at all. cf: The Customer Is God. The answer to your challenge is: Who cares which was the real wood at this (discolored) point? I choose F) None of the above. If'n you weren't sech a girlyman (insert party of choice, bob) ye'd be able to tell the real deal (i didn't really mean deal, andy) by the grain, pitch slashes, etc. cluck, cluck, cluck. Regards, Tom. "People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.) tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email) http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 That which does not kill us makes us stronger. --Friedrich Nietzsche Never get your philosophy from some guy who ended up in the looney bin. -- Wiz Zumwalt |
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 03:03:16 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote: I sure hope it looks better in person. On my screens both at home and at work, they look like cherry Kool Aid. It's not the fault of your screen but of the light that the photos were taken in. The point of the exercise, which seems to have been missed, is that most people can't tell the difference between cherry and poplar, if they are both finished using the same toner. It doesn't matter if these samples appear too red. The same point would stand if they were both finished to a color that had more brown in it. All the samples were finished in the same way. Not one person picked out which samples were cherry and which not. And this is on a woodworking newsgroup. Think about it. Regards, Tom. "People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.) tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email) http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 |
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 05:28:49 -0500, Tom Watson
wrote: Not one person picked out which samples were cherry and which not. Hey! I was HALF right! G I said #4 was either cherry or cherry ply. The poplar got me, though. In my case, you're preaching to the choir, as I feel artificial colorants should be handled on a case by case basis. On a side note, many of the pieces I've seen in museums show evidence of toner or stain, on cherry, walnut, maple, even genuine Cuban mahogany. Some of the pieces are 200 years old! Barry |
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 05:28:49 -0500, Tom Watson
wrote: The point of the exercise, which seems to have been missed, is that most people can't tell the difference between cherry and poplar, if they are both finished using the same toner. You can't tell rosewood from spruce, if you use the right sort of tar. I've seen the G-T secretaries in Boston MoFA and they're nowhere near the same cherryade colour as these pieces were on my monitor. I too thought #1 was cherry or cherry ply - the narrowness of the ring booundaries. I don't think I'd have been so fooled on a larger specimen though. The overall look of timber is as much due to the macroscopic shape of the sliced rings as it is to the close-up appearance. |
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:09:17 +0000, Andy Dingley
wrote: I've seen the G-T secretaries in Boston MoFA and they're nowhere near the same cherryade colour as these pieces were on my monitor. Do not mistake the patinated finish for the original finish. Look at a conservator's sample of the original and you might be surprised. You may recall some years back when the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel was being restored. Some people were horrified by what they considered to be the garish and far too bright colors that were being revealed. Surely these could not be the original colors? But they were. Regards, Tom. "People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.) tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email) http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 |
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 07:44:01 -0500, Tom Watson
wrote: I've seen the G-T secretaries in Boston MoFA and they're nowhere near the same cherryade colour as these pieces were on my monitor. Do not mistake the patinated finish for the original finish. Look at a conservator's sample of the original and you might be surprised. Last time I was in Boston was to give a couple of papers at a museums conference. As curators and librarians have much the same worldwide mafia as other niche crafts, I was lucky enough to get inside the furniture stores and workshops for a real tour around. Still not cherryade though. I admit I have almost no experience with cherry. It's an American timber, we just don't see it in the UK (good stuff anyway). I've a couple of boards sitting here, but they don't show anything like the colour changing I hear about from you guys. Is UK cherry the same species, or is it like white oak ? -- close enough for retail, but not really the same thing to work with. You may recall some years back when the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel was being restored. Some people were horrified by what they considered to be the garish and far too bright colors that were being revealed. Surely these could not be the original colors? But they were. Even that's debatable, but that's a topic for the conservator lists 8-) -- Smert' spamionam |
In article , Tom Watson wrote:
Not one person picked out which samples were cherry and which not. Not so. This was my response in abpw: 1. poplar 2. birch plywood 3. poplar 4. cherry plywood 5. solid cherry -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com) Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com You must use your REAL email address to get a response. |
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:58:17 +0000, Andy Dingley
wrote: On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 07:44:01 -0500, Tom Watson wrote: I've seen the G-T secretaries in Boston MoFA and they're nowhere near the same cherryade colour as these pieces were on my monitor. Do not mistake the patinated finish for the original finish. Look at a conservator's sample of the original and you might be surprised. Last time I was in Boston was to give a couple of papers at a museums conference. As curators and librarians have much the same worldwide mafia as other niche crafts, I was lucky enough to get inside the furniture stores and workshops for a real tour around. Still not cherryade though. I admit I have almost no experience with cherry. It's an American timber, we just don't see it in the UK (good stuff anyway). I've a couple of boards sitting here, but they don't show anything like the colour changing I hear about from you guys. Considering that sunlight (especially UV) is a big part of the process, that's not surprising. :-) Here in the desert you get a pronounced color change in a couple of days if you leave an unfinished piece out in the sunlight. --RC Is UK cherry the same species, or is it like white oak ? -- close enough for retail, but not really the same thing to work with. You may recall some years back when the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel was being restored. Some people were horrified by what they considered to be the garish and far too bright colors that were being revealed. Surely these could not be the original colors? But they were. Even that's debatable, but that's a topic for the conservator lists 8-) That which does not kill us makes us stronger. --Friedrich Nietzsche Never get your philosophy from some guy who ended up in the looney bin. -- Wiz Zumwalt |
In article ,
Tom Watson wrote: The point of the exercise, which seems to have been missed, is that most people can't tell the difference between cherry and poplar, if they are both finished using the same toner. But that doesn't address the original issue of could you tell cherry from poplar. I could paint 'em both and they would be indistinguishable as well. I would be much more interested in cherry more natural (eg. oil or the sort) and then trying to get poplar to look like it. *That* would be the real test. I have spent a fair bit of time looking at furniture. I have not yet seen -- in person -- a single example of a stained non-cherry that looked like unstained cherry. Now some of those stained pieces looked fantastic; this is not a value judgment. Not to mention, cherry is not the right choice by any means for everything. But I would love to see a piece *in person* that faked it well because cherry well finished is very beautiful and damn expensive; I certainly can't afford a lot of it. Not one person picked out which samples were cherry and which not. It was an interesting experiment but wood, especially with a glossy finish, is very difficult to photograph and get results which a clear enough to clearly identify wood. |
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STAIN - Matching poplar to raw cherry before applying toner.
Transtint Dyes 1/1 med brown/red brown in alcohol. A copy of my notebook reference. You might want to try it out. Regards, Tom. "People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.) tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email) http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 |
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 16:45:02 -0800, Fly-by-Night CC
calmly ranted: In article , Tom Watson wrote: 1. Solid Poplar. Damn - I couldasworn. Grain too even. I thought 2 and 3 were the poplar and couldn't tell the cherry solid from the ply. -- Music washes away from the soul the dust of everyday life. ---- --Unknown |
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 20:32:45 -0500, Tom Watson
calmly ranted: On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 01:19:52 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote: That's what happens when you dip it in cherry Kool Aid. BTW - The original stain sample was copied from a desk in the Winterthur Museum, which had previously resided in Congress Hall in Philadelphia and was dated from the 1770's. You will find the same color, more or less, on the Goddard-Townsend highboys and shell desks. Of course, what did they know? Ain't no effin' way the 230 y/o desk was that pale/red unless the thing never EVER saw the light of day in all that time. No fresh cherry I've ever seen has been that red, only stains. Did they actually have the gall to stain cherry back then? It's unnatural! -- Music washes away from the soul the dust of everyday life. ---- --Unknown |
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 21:11:00 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote: Ain't no effin' way the 230 y/o desk was that pale/red unless the thing never EVER saw the light of day in all that time. No fresh cherry I've ever seen has been that red, only stains. Did they actually have the gall to stain cherry back then? It's unnatural! http://www.wag-aic.org/authorindex.html Do a little homework, Bubba. Regards, Tom. "People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.) tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email) http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 |
On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:59:56 -0500, Tom Watson
calmly ranted: On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 21:11:00 -0800, Larry Jaques wrote: Ain't no effin' way the 230 y/o desk was that pale/red unless the thing never EVER saw the light of day in all that time. No fresh cherry I've ever seen has been that red, only stains. Did they actually have the gall to stain cherry back then? It's unnatural! http://www.wag-aic.org/authorindex.html Do a little homework, Bubba. You'll have to do better than that. (I didn't save the source file.) Whose desk? Point it out in the reference, please. Then I'll do the homework, Teach. -------------------------------------------------------- Murphy was an Optimist ---------------------------- http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development |
In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote: Grain too even. I thought 2 and 3 were the poplar and couldn't tell the cherry solid from the ply Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what you say *now*. -- Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company ____ "Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long |
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