Almost everyone enjoys the Great Pumpkin of American Hardwoods - that
being Cherry.

Unfortunately, not everyone can afford it and even those that can are
often too impatient to wait for it to mellow out and darken naturally.

When I was making cabinets for people I was often asked to provide a
Cherry Look, without the price tag. I was also asked to apply a toner
to real Cherry, to mimic the look it would have if left alone for ten
years or so.

The attachment contains five color samples. Two of them are Poplar.
One of them is Birch Plywood. One of them is Solid Cherry. One of
them is Cherry Plywood.

The clearcoats are all nitro lacquer and I'm sorry to say that the
samples have picked up some nasty scratches over time. Still, I think
they provide a fair test.

I'll post the answers in a day or two.




Regards,
Tom.

"People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston

Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

Tom Watson wrote:

Cherry Look, without the price tag. I was also asked to apply a toner
to real Cherry, to mimic the look it would have if left alone for ten
years or so.

Pretty ghastly, ain't it? At my uncle's place there's this massive,
extremely ornate china cabinet made out of some near ebony-colored wood
that has obviously had stain applied with a bucket. He bragged that it's
solid cherry.

Why?? WHY????????

I just don't get it. Why waste a thousand bucks worth of wood giving it a
finish like that when you could achieve the same result with MDF and paint?

I think if I were the guy doing that job for them I'd be tempted to stick
the cherry in my basement and actually build the thing out of poplar or
something. They'd never know the difference, and I would be preventing a
great crime from being committed.

Hell, I might even build it out of OAK. What do you reckon they'd ever
notice?

The attachment contains five color samples. Two of them are Poplar.
One of them is Birch Plywood. One of them is Solid Cherry. One of
them is Cherry Plywood.

I'll post the answers in a day or two.

If they're there, they aren't showing up here. I looked at ABPW with the
usenet replayer thing (neither of my servers does binaries anymore) and all
I see are some random tables and whatnots and a bunch of toy trains.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

In article ,
Tom Watson wrote:

The attachment contains five color samples. Two of them are Poplar.
One of them is Birch Plywood. One of them is Solid Cherry. One of
them is Cherry Plywood.

#1 is the real deal - it doesn't matter the ID of the others, they're
just the ugly stepsisters trying to hitch a ride on the pumpkin.

--
Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company
____

"To know the world intimately is the beginning of caring."
-- Ann Hayman Zwinger

On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 16:35:10 -0500, Tom Watson
calmly ranted:

Almost everyone enjoys the Great Pumpkin of American Hardwoods - that
being Cherry.

I like the nutty brown color of cherry, not the gawdawful mess
people call a "cherry finish", Tawm. Shame on you for actually
staining cherry. That's a "karma demerits" offense, y'know.


Unfortunately, not everyone can afford it and even those that can are
often too impatient to wait for it to mellow out and darken naturally.

When I was making cabinets for people I was often asked to provide a
Cherry Look, without the price tag. I was also asked to apply a toner
to real Cherry, to mimic the look it would have if left alone for ten
years or so.

So why didn't you tell them that you could set the wood in the sun for
a couple days, then let them tell you when to build?


The attachment contains five color samples. Two of them are Poplar.
One of them is Birch Plywood. One of them is Solid Cherry. One of
them is Cherry Plywood.

All I can say is "Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww ww!"
Wild Cherry flavor ain't purty at all.

The answer to your challenge is: Who cares which was the real wood
at this (discolored) point? I choose F) None of the above.


--
"Given the low level of competence among politicians,
every American should become a Libertarian."
-- Charley Reese, Alameda Times-Star (California), June 17, 2003

On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 09:16:38 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

The answer to your challenge is: cluck...cluck...cluck


Regards,
Tom.

"People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston

Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 16:35:10 -0500, Tom Watson
wrote:

The attachment contains five color samples. Two of them are Poplar.
One of them is Birch Plywood. One of them is Solid Cherry. One of
them is Cherry Plywood.

I think you forgot the attachment - at least it never made it over
here.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

1. Solid Poplar.
2. Solid Poplar.
3. Birch Ply.
4. Solid Cherry.
5. Cherry Ply.

;-



Regards,
Tom.

"People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston

Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 09:16:38 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:


I like the nutty brown color of cherry, not the gawdawful mess
people call a "cherry finish", Tawm. Shame on you for actually
staining cherry. That's a "karma demerits" offense, y'know.

The customer is God. How's your bidness going?


So why didn't you tell them that you could set the wood in the sun for
a couple days, then let them tell you when to build?

A thousand board feet for a cherry leebrary (library, dave) would be
quite a sunbathing exhibition.


All I can say is "Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww ww!"
Wild Cherry flavor ain't purty at all.

cf: The Customer Is God.

The answer to your challenge is: Who cares which was the real wood
at this (discolored) point? I choose F) None of the above.


If'n you weren't sech a girlyman (insert party of choice, bob) ye'd be
able to tell the real deal (i didn't really mean deal, andy) by the
grain, pitch slashes, etc.

cluck, cluck, cluck.



Regards,
Tom.

"People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston

Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

In article ,
Tom Watson wrote:

1. Solid Poplar.

Damn - I couldasworn.

--
Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company
____

"To know the world intimately is the beginning of caring."
-- Ann Hayman Zwinger

"Fly-by-Night CC" wrote in message
news
In article ,
Tom Watson wrote:

1. Solid Poplar.

Damn - I couldasworn.


That's what happens when you dip it in cherry Kool Aid.

On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 01:19:52 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


That's what happens when you dip it in cherry Kool Aid.



BTW - The original stain sample was copied from a desk in the
Winterthur Museum, which had previously resided in Congress Hall in
Philadelphia and was dated from the 1770's.

You will find the same color, more or less, on the Goddard-Townsend
highboys and shell desks.


Of course, what did they know?



Regards,
Tom.

"People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston

Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

"Tom Watson" wrote in message
BTW - The original stain sample was copied from a desk in the
Winterthur Museum, which had previously resided in Congress Hall in
Philadelphia and was dated from the 1770's.

You will find the same color, more or less, on the Goddard-Townsend
highboys and shell desks.


Of course, what did they know?

I sure hope it looks better in person. On my screens both at home and at
work, they look like cherry Kool Aid.

On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 18:39:17 -0500, Tom Watson
calmly ranted:

On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 09:16:38 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:


I like the nutty brown color of cherry, not the gawdawful mess
people call a "cherry finish", Tawm. Shame on you for actually
staining cherry. That's a "karma demerits" offense, y'know.

The customer is God. How's your bidness going?

Well. Luckily, I'm not in the refinishing bidness.
I can treat customers to their whims.


So why didn't you tell them that you could set the wood in the sun for
a couple days, then let them tell you when to build?

A thousand board feet for a cherry leebrary (library, dave) would be
quite a sunbathing exhibition.

Rent out the suntan shop downtown for a couple hours?


If'n you weren't sech a girlyman (insert party of choice, bob) ye'd be
able to tell the real deal (i didn't really mean deal, andy) by the
grain, pitch slashes, etc.

cluck, cluck, cluck.

My eyes got too red just looking at those samples.

--
Music washes away from the soul the dust of everyday life.
---- --Unknown

On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 18:39:17 -0500, Tom Watson
wrote:

On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 09:16:38 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:


I like the nutty brown color of cherry, not the gawdawful mess
people call a "cherry finish", Tawm. Shame on you for actually
staining cherry. That's a "karma demerits" offense, y'know.

The customer is God. How's your bidness going?


So why didn't you tell them that you could set the wood in the sun for
a couple days, then let them tell you when to build?

A thousand board feet for a cherry leebrary (library, dave) would be
quite a sunbathing exhibition.

This brings up a question. Here in Arizona it only takes a couple of
days to get cherry to darken nicely in the sun. How long does it take
in your neck of the woods. (And where are you?)


All I can say is "Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww ww!"
Wild Cherry flavor ain't purty at all.

cf: The Customer Is God.

The answer to your challenge is: Who cares which was the real wood
at this (discolored) point? I choose F) None of the above.


If'n you weren't sech a girlyman (insert party of choice, bob) ye'd be
able to tell the real deal (i didn't really mean deal, andy) by the
grain, pitch slashes, etc.

cluck, cluck, cluck.



Regards,
Tom.

"People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston

Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

That which does not kill us makes us stronger.
--Friedrich Nietzsche

Never get your philosophy from some guy who ended up in the looney bin.
-- Wiz Zumwalt

On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 03:03:16 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


I sure hope it looks better in person. On my screens both at home and at
work, they look like cherry Kool Aid.



It's not the fault of your screen but of the light that the photos
were taken in.

The point of the exercise, which seems to have been missed, is that
most people can't tell the difference between cherry and poplar, if
they are both finished using the same toner.

It doesn't matter if these samples appear too red. The same point
would stand if they were both finished to a color that had more brown
in it.

All the samples were finished in the same way.

Not one person picked out which samples were cherry and which not.

And this is on a woodworking newsgroup.

Think about it.


Regards,
Tom.

"People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston

Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 05:28:49 -0500, Tom Watson
wrote:

Not one person picked out which samples were cherry and which not.


Hey! I was HALF right! G I said #4 was either cherry or cherry
ply. The poplar got me, though.

In my case, you're preaching to the choir, as I feel artificial
colorants should be handled on a case by case basis.

On a side note, many of the pieces I've seen in museums show evidence
of toner or stain, on cherry, walnut, maple, even genuine Cuban
mahogany. Some of the pieces are 200 years old!

Barry

On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 05:28:49 -0500, Tom Watson
wrote:

The point of the exercise, which seems to have been missed, is that
most people can't tell the difference between cherry and poplar, if
they are both finished using the same toner.

You can't tell rosewood from spruce, if you use the right sort of tar.
I've seen the G-T secretaries in Boston MoFA and they're nowhere near
the same cherryade colour as these pieces were on my monitor.

I too thought #1 was cherry or cherry ply - the narrowness of the ring
booundaries. I don't think I'd have been so fooled on a larger
specimen though. The overall look of timber is as much due to the
macroscopic shape of the sliced rings as it is to the close-up
appearance.

On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:09:17 +0000, Andy Dingley
wrote:

I've seen the G-T secretaries in Boston MoFA and they're nowhere near
the same cherryade colour as these pieces were on my monitor.


Do not mistake the patinated finish for the original finish. Look at
a conservator's sample of the original and you might be surprised.

You may recall some years back when the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel
was being restored. Some people were horrified by what they
considered to be the garish and far too bright colors that were being
revealed. Surely these could not be the original colors?

But they were.




Regards,
Tom.

"People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston

Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 07:44:01 -0500, Tom Watson
wrote:

I've seen the G-T secretaries in Boston MoFA and they're nowhere near
the same cherryade colour as these pieces were on my monitor.

Do not mistake the patinated finish for the original finish. Look at
a conservator's sample of the original and you might be surprised.

Last time I was in Boston was to give a couple of papers at a museums
conference. As curators and librarians have much the same worldwide
mafia as other niche crafts, I was lucky enough to get inside the
furniture stores and workshops for a real tour around. Still not
cherryade though.

I admit I have almost no experience with cherry. It's an American
timber, we just don't see it in the UK (good stuff anyway). I've a
couple of boards sitting here, but they don't show anything like the
colour changing I hear about from you guys. Is UK cherry the same
species, or is it like white oak ? -- close enough for retail, but
not really the same thing to work with.


You may recall some years back when the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel
was being restored. Some people were horrified by what they
considered to be the garish and far too bright colors that were being
revealed. Surely these could not be the original colors?

But they were.

Even that's debatable, but that's a topic for the conservator lists
8-)

--
Smert' spamionam

In article , Tom Watson wrote:

Not one person picked out which samples were cherry and which not.

Not so. This was my response in abpw:

1. poplar
2. birch plywood
3. poplar
4. cherry plywood
5. solid cherry


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:58:17 +0000, Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 07:44:01 -0500, Tom Watson
wrote:

I've seen the G-T secretaries in Boston MoFA and they're nowhere near
the same cherryade colour as these pieces were on my monitor.

Do not mistake the patinated finish for the original finish. Look at
a conservator's sample of the original and you might be surprised.

Last time I was in Boston was to give a couple of papers at a museums
conference. As curators and librarians have much the same worldwide
mafia as other niche crafts, I was lucky enough to get inside the
furniture stores and workshops for a real tour around. Still not
cherryade though.

I admit I have almost no experience with cherry. It's an American
timber, we just don't see it in the UK (good stuff anyway). I've a
couple of boards sitting here, but they don't show anything like the
colour changing I hear about from you guys.

Considering that sunlight (especially UV) is a big part of the
process, that's not surprising. :-) Here in the desert you get a
pronounced color change in a couple of days if you leave an unfinished
piece out in the sunlight.

--RC

Is UK cherry the same
species, or is it like white oak ? -- close enough for retail, but
not really the same thing to work with.


You may recall some years back when the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel
was being restored. Some people were horrified by what they
considered to be the garish and far too bright colors that were being
revealed. Surely these could not be the original colors?

But they were.

Even that's debatable, but that's a topic for the conservator lists
8-)

That which does not kill us makes us stronger.
--Friedrich Nietzsche

Never get your philosophy from some guy who ended up in the looney bin.
-- Wiz Zumwalt

In article ,
Tom Watson wrote:

The point of the exercise, which seems to have been missed, is that
most people can't tell the difference between cherry and poplar, if
they are both finished using the same toner.

But that doesn't address the original issue of could you tell cherry
from poplar. I could paint 'em both and they would be indistinguishable
as well. I would be much more interested in cherry more natural (eg. oil
or the sort) and then trying to get poplar to look like it. *That* would
be the real test.

I have spent a fair bit of time looking at furniture. I have not yet
seen -- in person -- a single example of a stained non-cherry that
looked like unstained cherry. Now some of those stained pieces looked
fantastic; this is not a value judgment. Not to mention, cherry is not
the right choice by any means for everything. But I would love to see a
piece *in person* that faked it well because cherry well finished is
very beautiful and damn expensive; I certainly can't afford a lot of it.

Not one person picked out which samples were cherry and which not.

It was an interesting experiment but wood, especially with a glossy
finish, is very difficult to photograph and get results which a clear
enough to clearly identify wood.

On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 14:44:00 GMT, wrote:

Considering that sunlight (especially UV) is a big part of the
process, that's not surprising.

I've seen sunlight ! 1976 ! and again in 1984 !

It's not as if I lived in _Manchester_

STAIN - Matching poplar to raw cherry before applying toner.

Transtint Dyes
1/1 med brown/red brown in alcohol.

A copy of my notebook reference.

You might want to try it out.





Regards,
Tom.

"People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston

Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 16:45:02 -0800, Fly-by-Night CC
calmly ranted:

In article ,
Tom Watson wrote:

1. Solid Poplar.

Damn - I couldasworn.

Grain too even. I thought 2 and 3 were the poplar and
couldn't tell the cherry solid from the ply.


--
Music washes away from the soul the dust of everyday life.
---- --Unknown

On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 20:32:45 -0500, Tom Watson
calmly ranted:

On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 01:19:52 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


That's what happens when you dip it in cherry Kool Aid.

BTW - The original stain sample was copied from a desk in the
Winterthur Museum, which had previously resided in Congress Hall in
Philadelphia and was dated from the 1770's.

You will find the same color, more or less, on the Goddard-Townsend
highboys and shell desks.


Of course, what did they know?

Ain't no effin' way the 230 y/o desk was that pale/red unless
the thing never EVER saw the light of day in all that time.
No fresh cherry I've ever seen has been that red, only stains.
Did they actually have the gall to stain cherry back then?
It's unnatural!


--
Music washes away from the soul the dust of everyday life.
---- --Unknown

On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 21:11:00 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:


Ain't no effin' way the 230 y/o desk was that pale/red unless
the thing never EVER saw the light of day in all that time.
No fresh cherry I've ever seen has been that red, only stains.
Did they actually have the gall to stain cherry back then?
It's unnatural!


http://www.wag-aic.org/authorindex.html


Do a little homework, Bubba.



Regards,
Tom.

"People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston

Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:59:56 -0500, Tom Watson
calmly ranted:

On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 21:11:00 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Ain't no effin' way the 230 y/o desk was that pale/red unless
the thing never EVER saw the light of day in all that time.
No fresh cherry I've ever seen has been that red, only stains.
Did they actually have the gall to stain cherry back then?
It's unnatural!

http://www.wag-aic.org/authorindex.html

Do a little homework, Bubba.

You'll have to do better than that. (I didn't save the
source file.) Whose desk? Point it out in the reference,
please. Then I'll do the homework, Teach.


--------------------------------------------------------
Murphy was an Optimist
----------------------------
http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:

Grain too even. I thought 2 and 3 were the poplar and
couldn't tell the cherry solid from the ply

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what you say *now*.

--
Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company
____

"Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised
as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long