Water-based poly?
 

I just used a water-based polyurethane for the first time. (I'm no
woodworking expert. The last time I refinished anything was my
grandma's old oak table, 20 years ago. Now it's time to refinish it
and I'm using water-based this time.)

I noticed the grain popped up after the first coat of poly. I assumed
that was because the water soaked into the wood. I sanded lightly with
220 grit and applied 2nd & 3rd coats.

It looks pretty good now. Not as smooth as the old poly, but that
might have been because the old stuff has 20 years of wear. I think I
might sand it again and put a few more coats on -- any harm in that?

It seems to me the water poly isn't filling in the open oak grain as
well as the old poly did. This is a kitchen/dining table that gets
plenty of use every day, including lots of spills from my 7-yr-old. I
want to make sure the wood is appropriately protected from spills and
is easy to clean up. Should I keep putting on 4th, 5th, ? coats until
it looks like the grain is filled in better?

Thanks,
Gary
remove xxx's to email

"Gary Fritz" wrote in message
...
Snip


I noticed the grain popped up after the first coat of poly. I assumed
that was because the water soaked into the wood. I sanded lightly with
220 grit and applied 2nd & 3rd coats.

Typically when using water based products on bare wood you should lightly
wet the wood surface, let thoroughly dry, lightly sand to get rid of the
fuzzy grain that popped up and then apply the water based product.

It looks pretty good now. Not as smooth as the old poly, but that
might have been because the old stuff has 20 years of wear. I think I
might sand it again and put a few more coats on -- any harm in that?

No harm.

"Leon" wrote:
Typically when using water based products on bare wood you should
lightly wet the wood surface, let thoroughly dry, lightly sand to
get rid of the fuzzy grain that popped up and then apply the water
based product.

Hm. There was no mention on the can. They just said sand with 220
after the first coat. Hopefully that does the job as well.

Gary Fritz wrote:
I just used a water-based polyurethane for the first time. (I'm no
woodworking expert. The last time I refinished anything was my
grandma's old oak table, 20 years ago. Now it's time to refinish it
and I'm using water-based this time.)

I noticed the grain popped up after the first coat of poly. I assumed
that was because the water soaked into the wood. I sanded lightly with
220 grit and applied 2nd & 3rd coats.

Good.

It looks pretty good now. Not as smooth as the old poly, but that
might have been because the old stuff has 20 years of wear. I think I
might sand it again and put a few more coats on -- any harm in that?

Nope!


It seems to me the water poly isn't filling in the open oak grain as
well as the old poly did. This is a kitchen/dining table that gets
plenty of use every day, including lots of spills from my 7-yr-old. I
want to make sure the wood is appropriately protected from spills and
is easy to clean up. Should I keep putting on 4th, 5th, ? coats until
it looks like the grain is filled in better?

You can. Usually pore/defect filling is best done before the finish is
applied, but the only real drawback for you is more work and extra coats.

Keep in mind that water based poly is nothing at all like oil based.
They have the same name bit that is about it. Water based poly is much
like latex paint, it is not a very good water barrier at all. The finish
is emusified, which basically means the dried finish is much like scales
on a fish, lots of small "plates" each overlapping each other. Oil based
poly is actually cross linked and much more water tight.

I really like water based poly however since it is very easy to apply (I
like to spray), clean up, and adds no tint to the project.

-Bruce


Thanks,
Gary
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Gary, as much as I like applying WB poly, it wouldn't be my finish of
choice for a well used dining room tabletop. You can increase the
durability (water resistance, abrasion resistance) of Enduro polys by
adding Crosslinker. It is expensive, at $30 for a small bottle, but it
goes a long way.

Another option would be to use a more durable finish such as C-V.

David

Gary Fritz wrote:

I just used a water-based polyurethane for the first time. (I'm no
woodworking expert. The last time I refinished anything was my
grandma's old oak table, 20 years ago. Now it's time to refinish it
and I'm using water-based this time.)

I noticed the grain popped up after the first coat of poly. I assumed
that was because the water soaked into the wood. I sanded lightly with
220 grit and applied 2nd & 3rd coats.

It looks pretty good now. Not as smooth as the old poly, but that
might have been because the old stuff has 20 years of wear. I think I
might sand it again and put a few more coats on -- any harm in that?

It seems to me the water poly isn't filling in the open oak grain as
well as the old poly did. This is a kitchen/dining table that gets
plenty of use every day, including lots of spills from my 7-yr-old. I
want to make sure the wood is appropriately protected from spills and
is easy to clean up. Should I keep putting on 4th, 5th, ? coats until
it looks like the grain is filled in better?

Thanks,
Gary
remove xxx's to email

Gary,
No matter what the 'purists' say . . . I like water-based poly for finishing
a 'working' surface, like your kitchen table. It's both hard and relatively
impervious to liquids & damage.

Agreed, for a faster 'dead flat' & smooth surface, you should have filled
the pores first. However, that type of surface is not a necessity but more
of a cosmetic choice. To fill the existing grain with the poly, think about
6 coats . . . as a start. {Bare in mind that I consider 6 coats of varnish,
etc. as normal !!}. Sand with progressively finer grits between coats. Use
220 for the first AND second, then 320, 400, and 600.

Note, that after the 2nd or 3rd coat the surface is sealed. Even if you see
the little 'dimples' of the pores, they have sufficient finish in them to
repel spills. Therefore, if you can live with the 'look', and still have it
after 6 coats . . . don't worry about it.

Regards & Good Luck,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop

"Gary Fritz" wrote in message
...
I just used a water-based polyurethane for the first time. (I'm no
woodworking expert. The last time I refinished anything was my
grandma's old oak table, 20 years ago. Now it's time to refinish it
and I'm using water-based this time.)

SNIP
I sanded lightly with 220 grit and applied 2nd & 3rd coats.

It looks pretty good now. . . .I think I might sand it again and put a few
more coats on --
It seems to me the water poly isn't filling in the open oak grain . . .
This is a kitchen/dining table that gets plenty of use every day, including
lots of spills from my 7-yr-old. I
want to make sure the wood is appropriately protected from spills and
is easy to clean up. Should I keep putting on 4th, 5th, ? coats

"Ron Magen" wrote:
No matter what the 'purists' say . . . I like water-based poly for
finishing a 'working' surface, like your kitchen table. It's both
hard and relatively impervious to liquids & damage.

Well that's good to hear. From what some of the other posters were
saying, I was starting to think it was going to dissolve the first time
my son spilled his juice on it. :-)

Agreed, for a faster 'dead flat' & smooth surface, you should have
filled the pores first. However, that type of surface is not a
necessity but more of a cosmetic choice. To fill the existing
grain with the poly, think about 6 coats . . . as a start.

I have no problem with doing more coats. It only takes about 20-30
minutes to slap on a coat. I did 3 coats yesterday and I can easily do
another 3 today if I want to. Except 220 is the finest grit I have, so
I'll have to go out to the store to get 320/400/600.

Thanks!
Gary

Gary Fritz wrote:
No matter what the 'purists' say . . . I like water-based poly
for finishing a 'working' surface, like your kitchen table. It's
both hard and relatively impervious to liquids & damage.

Hm. Does it harden as it cures? I just looked at the table and I can
fairly easily scratch/dent the finish with a fingernail. That would
NEVER stand up to my kids.

I just put the 3 coats on yesterday, so maybe it just needs more time.

Gotta say though, the surface is nice and satiny. Just a few dust pips
here and there. Not sure why it would be necessary to use the uber-
fine sandpapers unless you wanted a glassy finish.

Gary

In article ,
says...
Should I keep putting on 4th, 5th, ? coats until
it looks like the grain is filled in better?



You would have been better off filling the with a filler or several
coats of thinned and sanded back coats of your finish. Now you don't
have much choice but to plow forward adding coats.

The only real way you are going to accomplish the task without adding
three, four, five, or six more coats is to sand what you have now all
the way down to where it is flat, note, not to the wood, just so it is
level, and add another coat or two on the sanded flat surface.


--
MikeG
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net

It will harden over time, Gary, but I'll bet you the contents of my shop
that even 3 months from now, you will be able to scratch it with your
fingernail (dragged vertically in line with the edge of the fingernail).
Moisture left on the surface for most of the day will mar the finish.
Short term spills shouldn't bother it, however.

David

Gary Fritz wrote:

Gary Fritz wrote:

No matter what the 'purists' say . . . I like water-based poly
for finishing a 'working' surface, like your kitchen table. It's
both hard and relatively impervious to liquids & damage.


Hm. Does it harden as it cures? I just looked at the table and I can
fairly easily scratch/dent the finish with a fingernail. That would
NEVER stand up to my kids.

I just put the 3 coats on yesterday, so maybe it just needs more time.

Gotta say though, the surface is nice and satiny. Just a few dust pips
here and there. Not sure why it would be necessary to use the uber-
fine sandpapers unless you wanted a glassy finish.

Gary

MikeG wrote:
You would have been better off filling the with a filler or
several coats of thinned and sanded back coats of your finish. Now
you don't have much choice but to plow forward adding coats.

Yeah, I realize that now. The "texture" of the grain doesn't bother me
as long as the wood is protected and the grain doesn't collect too much
spilled milk and other gunk.

The only real way you are going to accomplish the task without
adding three, four, five, or six more coats is to sand what you
have now all the way down to where it is flat, note, not to the
wood, just so it is level, and add another coat or two on the
sanded flat surface.

Can't. It's quarter-sawn oak with a very "open" grain. Some of the
"pits" in the grain are lower than the surface of the wood.

I dunno if another 3 or more coats will actually "fill in" the grain,
but maybe it will help?

I'm more concerned about the durability of the water-based. Unless it
hardens as it cures, this will never work out. I can easily
dent/scratch it with a fingernail.

I don't suppose it's possible to put solvent-based poly on top of
water-based poly? :-(

Gary

David wrote:
It will harden over time, Gary, but I'll bet you the contents of
my shop that even 3 months from now, you will be able to scratch
it with your fingernail

Eeesh. In 3 months my kids could make a mess of my beautiful new
finish. How long until it's fully hardened? Hopefully it will get a
whole lot harder than fingernail-scratching level!!!

I'm starting to wonder if water-based was such a good idea after all...

On 26 Oct 2004 17:19:13 GMT, Gary Fritz wrote:

|David wrote:
| It will harden over time, Gary, but I'll bet you the contents of
| my shop that even 3 months from now, you will be able to scratch
| it with your fingernail
|
|Eeesh. In 3 months my kids could make a mess of my beautiful new
|finish. How long until it's fully hardened? Hopefully it will get a
|whole lot harder than fingernail-scratching level!!!
|
|I'm starting to wonder if water-based was such a good idea after all...

What (whose) material did you use. As I believe David said, Enduro
makes a crosslinking material that is claimed to improve chemical and
abrasion resistance by a factor of seven or so when added to their
finish.

I have some of this material but have yet use it, so I can't confirm.

On 26 Oct 2004 15:26:56 GMT, Gary Fritz wrote:

Gary Fritz wrote:
No matter what the 'purists' say . . . I like water-based poly
for finishing a 'working' surface, like your kitchen table. It's
both hard and relatively impervious to liquids & damage.

Hm. Does it harden as it cures? I just looked at the table and I can
fairly easily scratch/dent the finish with a fingernail. That would
NEVER stand up to my kids.

it takes a while.

there are two things going on. first, the water used as a carrier has
to evaporate. that takes anywhere from a few minutes to an hour or so.
at that point it's dry to the touch, can be sanded and recoated and
the new layer will bond chemically. second, there is a cure process
where the polyurethane/acrylic does it's crosslinking bit and releases
it's primary solvent, usually one of the slower alcohols. this takes a
few days, during which it becomes harder and more chemically inert.
once this is complete new layers no longer bond chemically, and
witness lines and delamination start to become problems.






I just put the 3 coats on yesterday, so maybe it just needs more time.

Gotta say though, the surface is nice and satiny. Just a few dust pips
here and there. Not sure why it would be necessary to use the uber-
fine sandpapers unless you wanted a glassy finish.

Gary

If you put the first coat on too thick that might have popped the grain.
What brand are you using? Sand to 22/330 between coats.

--

Rumpty

Radial Arm Saw Forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/woodbutcher/start

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


"Gary Fritz" wrote in message
...
"Leon" wrote:
Typically when using water based products on bare wood you should
lightly wet the wood surface, let thoroughly dry, lightly sand to
get rid of the fuzzy grain that popped up and then apply the water
based product.

Hm. There was no mention on the can. They just said sand with 220
after the first coat. Hopefully that does the job as well.

Gary Fritz wrote:
"Ron Magen" wrote:
No matter what the 'purists' say . . . I like water-based poly for
finishing a 'working' surface, like your kitchen table. It's both
hard and relatively impervious to liquids & damage.

Well that's good to hear. From what some of the other posters were
saying, I was starting to think it was going to dissolve the first
time my son spilled his juice on it. :-)

[snip]

I've used it for floor cloths and was shocked at the amount of traffic
they withstood, some are 5 years old now and were used in kitchens.

Josie

In article ,
says...
MikeG wrote:
You would have been better off filling the with a filler or
several coats of thinned and sanded back coats of your finish. Now
you don't have much choice but to plow forward adding coats.

Yeah, I realize that now. The "texture" of the grain doesn't bother me
as long as the wood is protected and the grain doesn't collect too much
spilled milk and other gunk.

The only real way you are going to accomplish the task without
adding three, four, five, or six more coats is to sand what you
have now all the way down to where it is flat, note, not to the
wood, just so it is level, and add another coat or two on the
sanded flat surface.

Can't. It's quarter-sawn oak with a very "open" grain. Some of the
"pits" in the grain are lower than the surface of the wood.

I dunno if another 3 or more coats will actually "fill in" the grain,
but maybe it will help?

I'm more concerned about the durability of the water-based. Unless it
hardens as it cures, this will never work out. I can easily
dent/scratch it with a fingernail.

I don't suppose it's possible to put solvent-based poly on top of
water-based poly? :-(

Gary

Hi Gary

Of course the pits are lower then the wood, that's oaks job.

Lets look at it this way. Suppose you dug a six foot hole in your back
yard and the powers that be didn't like it and told you to get rid of
it.

Now, you decide to get rid of it by, rather then just filling it in,
putting layers of fill over the whole back yard. Yes, I know, of course
you wouldn't actually do that but bear with me.

Ok, after about the fifteenth load of fill when half the back door is
covered you find the hole is filling up. You've only got three more feet
to fill. Kind of like where you are now.

So, where do you go from there. You scrape off all the layers down the
three feet and the yard is level. Not all the way back to the original
level, just till you reach the level the hole is filled too.

If you have multiple layers of finish on now you should be able to
"scrape" that back to a level where all is flat and without hitting the
wood. If you're not comfortable with that do a couple of more layers
then sand it back. Do not expect large pores to be filled anytime soon
by just adding more coats.

As for the strength of the poly. It'll take weeks before it cures fully,
oil takes even longer. It'll help if you give each coat twice as long to
cure as recommended before adding the next. Also, depending where you
live of course, environmental factors can effect curing time. 50
degrees, which it is here right now, is not the ideal temperature for
finishes. Finishes like about seventy.

--
MikeG
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net

MikeG wrote:
Of course the pits are lower then the wood, that's oaks job.

OK, you had me wondering there. :-) So you're saying just smooth out
the finish and don't worry about the pits in the open grain.

As for the strength of the poly. It'll take weeks before it cures
fully, oil takes even longer. It'll help if you give each coat
twice as long to cure as recommended before adding the next. Also,
depending where you live of course, environmental factors can
effect curing time. 50 degrees, which it is here right now, is not
the ideal temperature for finishes. Finishes like about seventy.

I didn't give it all that much extra time, but I did it in the basement
to avoid 50deg temps. It was right around 70.

Gary

Wes Stewart wrote:
What (whose) material did you use.

Minwax Polycrylic, clear semi-gloss.

Gary Fritz wrote:
wrote:

a cure process where the polyurethane/acrylic does it's
crosslinking bit and releases it's primary solvent, usually one of
the slower alcohols. this takes a few days, during which it
becomes harder and more chemically inert. once this is complete
new layers no longer bond chemically, and witness lines and
delamination start to become problems.


Hmm. So it's been almost 24 hrs since the last coat. Am I going to
regret it if I add another coat 24-48 hrs after the last coat?

One thing to watch for is making too many layers with a semigloss
finish. Each layer reduces the clarity and begins to hide the wood.
Usually you do all the base coats with "clear" and then do the final
satin coat with the satin or SG finish.
I've only used the minwax stuff and have applied extra coats within
minutes and sometimes weeks later. I would avoid any recoats in the 4-24
hour range since the surface is too dry for the next coat to adhere well
and too soft to properly "scuff" it up.
After 24 hours you can do whatever leveling sanding you need and apply
another coat.

-Bruce



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On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 16:01:27 -0600, BruceR wrote:

Gary Fritz wrote:
wrote:

a cure process where the polyurethane/acrylic does it's
crosslinking bit and releases it's primary solvent, usually one of
the slower alcohols. this takes a few days, during which it
becomes harder and more chemically inert. once this is complete
new layers no longer bond chemically, and witness lines and
delamination start to become problems.


Hmm. So it's been almost 24 hrs since the last coat. Am I going to
regret it if I add another coat 24-48 hrs after the last coat?

depends on the product. generally they recommend recoating pretty soon
after it's dry to the touch. what's it say on the can?





One thing to watch for is making too many layers with a semigloss
finish. Each layer reduces the clarity and begins to hide the wood.

depends on the product. some MFRs make satin by adding white powders
to the finish. they cloud with build. some make satin other ways.
enduro products for instance don't cloud with build.



Usually you do all the base coats with "clear" and then do the final
satin coat with the satin or SG finish.
I've only used the minwax stuff and have applied extra coats within
minutes and sometimes weeks later. I would avoid any recoats in the 4-24
hour range since the surface is too dry for the next coat to adhere well
and too soft to properly "scuff" it up.
After 24 hours you can do whatever leveling sanding you need and apply
another coat.

-Bruce



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On 26 Oct 2004 15:26:56 GMT, Gary Fritz calmly
ranted:

Gary Fritz wrote:
No matter what the 'purists' say . . . I like water-based poly
for finishing a 'working' surface, like your kitchen table. It's
both hard and relatively impervious to liquids & damage.

Hm. Does it harden as it cures? I just looked at the table and I can
fairly easily scratch/dent the finish with a fingernail. That would
NEVER stand up to my kids.

I just put the 3 coats on yesterday, so maybe it just needs more time.

I make it a point NEVER to put on more than one coat of any finish
('cept shellac) within 24 hours. Giving the finish time to dry between
coats is half its hardness factor, IMHO. And putting another coat
on top of a gooey coat keeps the lower coat from hardening in a fair
amount of time...if ever.

You're using a PLASTIC finish, so moisture removal is of utmost
importance between coats. The upper coat could keep the bottom
coat wet forever.


--
"Excess regulation and government spending destroy jobs and increase
unemployment. Every regulator we fire results in the creation of over
150 new jobs, enough to hire the ex-regulator, the unemployed, and
the able-bodied poor." -Michael Badnarik

VOTE LIBERTARIAN ON NOVEMBER 2, 2004 OR YOU WON'T CHANGE ANYTHING.

On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 16:03:15 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On 26 Oct 2004 15:26:56 GMT, Gary Fritz calmly
ranted:

Gary Fritz wrote:
No matter what the 'purists' say . . . I like water-based poly
for finishing a 'working' surface, like your kitchen table. It's
both hard and relatively impervious to liquids & damage.

Hm. Does it harden as it cures? I just looked at the table and I can
fairly easily scratch/dent the finish with a fingernail. That would
NEVER stand up to my kids.

I just put the 3 coats on yesterday, so maybe it just needs more time.

I make it a point NEVER to put on more than one coat of any finish
('cept shellac) within 24 hours. Giving the finish time to dry between
coats is half its hardness factor, IMHO. And putting another coat
on top of a gooey coat keeps the lower coat from hardening in a fair
amount of time...if ever.

You're using a PLASTIC finish, so moisture removal is of utmost
importance between coats. The upper coat could keep the bottom
coat wet forever.

acrylic polyurethanes are an exception to that rule. they do their
final cure mostly by crosslinking rather than by drying. you're
supposed to recoat soon after they are dry to touch. otherwise the
layers won't bond well.

On 26 Oct 2004 21:44:25 GMT, Gary Fritz calmly
ranted:

wrote:
a cure process where the polyurethane/acrylic does it's
crosslinking bit and releases it's primary solvent, usually one of
the slower alcohols. this takes a few days, during which it
becomes harder and more chemically inert. once this is complete
new layers no longer bond chemically, and witness lines and
delamination start to become problems.

Hmm. So it's been almost 24 hrs since the last coat. Am I going to
regret it if I add another coat 24-48 hrs after the last coat?

Read the can and follow their suggestions unless you have
personal experience with the product and know what you can
get away with.


--
"Excess regulation and government spending destroy jobs and increase
unemployment. Every regulator we fire results in the creation of over
150 new jobs, enough to hire the ex-regulator, the unemployed, and
the able-bodied poor." -Michael Badnarik

VOTE LIBERTARIAN ON NOVEMBER 2, 2004 OR YOU WON'T CHANGE ANYTHING.

Larry, WB finishes are designed to be recoated in a short time frame.
Failure to do so can result in finish failure (adhesion issues).

David

Larry Jaques wrote:
On 26 Oct 2004 15:26:56 GMT, Gary Fritz calmly
ranted:


Gary Fritz wrote:

No matter what the 'purists' say . . . I like water-based poly
for finishing a 'working' surface, like your kitchen table. It's
both hard and relatively impervious to liquids & damage.

Hm. Does it harden as it cures? I just looked at the table and I can
fairly easily scratch/dent the finish with a fingernail. That would
NEVER stand up to my kids.

I just put the 3 coats on yesterday, so maybe it just needs more time.


I make it a point NEVER to put on more than one coat of any finish
('cept shellac) within 24 hours. Giving the finish time to dry between
coats is half its hardness factor, IMHO. And putting another coat
on top of a gooey coat keeps the lower coat from hardening in a fair
amount of time...if ever.

You're using a PLASTIC finish, so moisture removal is of utmost
importance between coats. The upper coat could keep the bottom
coat wet forever.

Wes, the crosslinker DOES harden the finish by a noticeable amount. I'm
not sure it is the 7 times that they claim. :)

David

Wes Stewart wrote:

On 26 Oct 2004 17:19:13 GMT, Gary Fritz wrote:

|David wrote:
| It will harden over time, Gary, but I'll bet you the contents of
| my shop that even 3 months from now, you will be able to scratch
| it with your fingernail
|
|Eeesh. In 3 months my kids could make a mess of my beautiful new
|finish. How long until it's fully hardened? Hopefully it will get a
|whole lot harder than fingernail-scratching level!!!
|
|I'm starting to wonder if water-based was such a good idea after all...

What (whose) material did you use. As I believe David said, Enduro
makes a crosslinking material that is claimed to improve chemical and
abrasion resistance by a factor of seven or so when added to their
finish.

I have some of this material but have yet use it, so I can't confirm.

The Flecto WB Varathane label states "Our hardest finish".

On 26 Oct 2004 17:03:24 GMT, Gary Fritz wrote:

I'm more concerned about the durability of the water-based. Unless it
hardens as it cures, this will never work out. I can easily
dent/scratch it with a fingernail.

Minwax's Polycrylic is not polyurethane and is much softer than traditional
oil-based polyurethanes. Flecto's water-based Varathane is much harder than
Polycrylic. I've used many gallons of Polycrylic on cabinets because I like
the way it applies and settles, but I use Varathane on shelves for it's
toughness.

They should be compatible. Sand the Polycrylic with 320 grit, then apply a
coat or two of Varathane.

-Dave
--
http://plumpe.home.mindspring.com
email:
ANTI-SPAM: To email, replace "lastname" with "plumpe"
-------------------------------

"Gary Fritz" wrote in message
...
Wes Stewart wrote:
What (whose) material did you use.

Minwax Polycrylic, clear semi-gloss.

In article ,
says...

OK, you had me wondering there. :-) So you're saying just smooth out
the finish and don't worry about the pits in the open grain.





No Gary, what I am saying is that if you continue to just add varnish in
and attempt to level the low spots you could be at it for the next
month.

Level out the finish to the level of the low spots caused by the open
grain then add a coat or two.

--
MikeG
Heirloom Woods
www.heirloom-woods.net

"Dave Plumpe" wrote:
Minwax's Polycrylic is not polyurethane and is much softer than
traditional oil-based polyurethanes.

Gack. Great.

Flecto's water-based
Varathane is much harder than Polycrylic. I've used many gallons
of Polycrylic on cabinets because I like the way it applies and
settles, but I use Varathane on shelves for it's toughness.

They should be compatible. Sand the Polycrylic with 320 grit,
then apply a coat or two of Varathane.

Hmmm. OK. If I remember right it was a Varathane product that I used
on the table 20 years ago.

If sanding with 320 will ensure bonding to the polycrylic, then I think
I'll do that. Two coats (on top of 3 coats of the polycrylic?) will
be enough? Or should I sand down most of the polycrylic so the
varathane doesn't have a soft surface underneath it??

I definitely can't tolerate a soft finish from the polycrylic. This
table gets used 2-4 times every day and it needs to stand up to wear.

Thanks,
Gary

No guarantees in life that I know of, Gary - sometimes we just have to take
chances. I THINK Varathane should bond well to scuffed-up Polycrylic, but
can't remember ever actually doing that.

Certainly, the less Polycrylic under the Varathane, the better, but what you
suggest sounds good. If I had it to do, I'd probably sand down the
Polycrylic until it's very thin, but not gone (I like the color of the first
coat of Polycrylic better than Varathane), then apply 2-3 coats of glossy
Varathane (sanding between coats, of course), followed by one coat of
semi-gloss (I think that's the surface you wanted). Generally, you want to
use gloss for all but the last coat because it's much clearer than
semi-gloss or flat, but it depends on whether you think of your table as
"fine furniture". The Varathane I use is for floors, specifically:
"Varathane Crystal Clear Waterborne Diamond Wood Finish", "Floors".

-Dave
--
http://plumpe.home.mindspring.com
email:
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-----------------------------------

"Gary Fritz" wrote in message
...
"Dave Plumpe" wrote:
Minwax's Polycrylic is not polyurethane and is much softer than
traditional oil-based polyurethanes.

Gack. Great.

Flecto's water-based
Varathane is much harder than Polycrylic. I've used many gallons
of Polycrylic on cabinets because I like the way it applies and
settles, but I use Varathane on shelves for it's toughness.

They should be compatible. Sand the Polycrylic with 320 grit,
then apply a coat or two of Varathane.

Hmmm. OK. If I remember right it was a Varathane product that I used
on the table 20 years ago.

If sanding with 320 will ensure bonding to the polycrylic, then I think
I'll do that. Two coats (on top of 3 coats of the polycrylic?) will
be enough? Or should I sand down most of the polycrylic so the
varathane doesn't have a soft surface underneath it??

I definitely can't tolerate a soft finish from the polycrylic. This
table gets used 2-4 times every day and it needs to stand up to wear.

Thanks,
Gary

"Dave Plumpe" wrote:
No guarantees in life that I know of, Gary -

I guarantee this polycrylic would get trashed within a few months. :-\
I can easily gouge out pieces with my fingernail.

Certainly, the less Polycrylic under the Varathane, the better,
but what you suggest sounds good. If I had it to do, I'd probably
sand down the Polycrylic until it's very thin, but not gone (I
like the color of the first coat of Polycrylic better than
Varathane), then apply 2-3 coats of glossy Varathane (sanding
between coats, of course), followed by one coat of semi-gloss (I
think that's the surface you wanted).

I sanded down the Polycrylic with 220. Much more than just "scuffing
it up," but not down to the wood. Unfortunately this means the
higher areas of the wood are glassy-smooth now, instead of having the
interesting grain pattern I had before. Oh well.

This stuff is nasty to sand, at least with a fine grit. I had to stop
every few minutes to scrape goobers of plastic off the sanding disk.
The sanding dust feels more like fine plastic balls than like the
silky-smooth dust you get from wood. Or even from the old Varathane.

I'm a bit concerned that the color seems a bit irregular now. I'm
hoping that evens out when I apply the Varathane. I really don't want
to have to start over and sand down to the wood again -- especially if
this polycrylic is as nasty to sand with 40-grit as it was with 220 --
but if that's the right thing to do, I'll do it. Better to do it now
before I put a couple of coats of Varathane on. I don't want to have
to refinish this thing again for 15-20 years so I want to do it right.

Gary

Gary Fritz wrote:
I'm a bit concerned that the color seems a bit irregular now. I'm
hoping that evens out when I apply the Varathane.

BTW I thought I didn't get down to the wood. It still feels like
plastic in most areas. But e.g. there is a spot where I accidentally
gouged the wood with the 40-grit, and I smoothed out a depression
around it. Now that area shows a light ring around the depression.
Not sure why that would be, if I haven't touched the wood & thus the
stain. Maybe it will disappear when I apply the Varathane? Or maybe I
got down to the wood in a few spots and removed some of the stain. If
so, I probably ought to start over and take it down to the wood again.
***SIGH***

Gary Fritz wrote in
:

Gary Fritz wrote:
I'm a bit concerned that the color seems a bit irregular now. I'm
hoping that evens out when I apply the Varathane.

BTW I thought I didn't get down to the wood. It still feels like
plastic in most areas. But e.g. there is a spot where I accidentally
gouged the wood with the 40-grit, and I smoothed out a depression
around it. Now that area shows a light ring around the depression.
Not sure why that would be, if I haven't touched the wood & thus the
stain. Maybe it will disappear when I apply the Varathane? Or maybe I
got down to the wood in a few spots and removed some of the stain. If
so, I probably ought to start over and take it down to the wood again.
***SIGH***


It sands better when it cures longer. The same reason you're trying to
take it off is the reason the paper clogs.

Is there any way you can just leave it alone for a couple of weeks? Use
another table, until this one cures?

The ingredient most often forgotten in the formula is patience. DAMHIKT.

Patriarch

patriarch wrote:
Is there any way you can just leave it alone for a couple of
weeks? Use another table, until this one cures?

Ick. We already have a temporary table but it's definitely a pain.
I'm wondering if the 40-grit will take the polycrylic off without so
much gunking-up. I might give it a try and see how it works so I can
get this project DONE and get this big honkin' table (4 leaves, 10'
long) off the floor & out of the way. If I waited a few weeks I'd at
least get it off the floor, but I'd like to finish this.

What was that you said about patience?? :-)

When I take it down to the wood again -- this time should I use a
filler before the Varathane? Or do you figure there's enough
polycrylic in the low spots to take care of it already?

OK, I got out the 60 grit (HD didn't have any 40) and took it down to
the wood. Don't know whether it was another few days of curing, or the
coarser grit, but it went much quicker and smoother than when I used
the 220. No plastic melting, etc.

So I need to do passes with 150 and 220, but does anybody have any
thoughts on wood filler? Should I just assume the deep grain pits are
full of Polycrylic and don't worry about it? Didn't worry about it
with the Polycrylic and it seemed OK.

Now I just gotta find the Varathane DWF Floors. HD didn't have it, and
neither did the local Ace hardware (except one 4oz can of gloss). They
had all kinds of Varathane products but not the DWF WB.

Gary

Gary Fritz wrote:
I went over it with 150 and 220, and got it to a glassy-smooth
finish. But I apparently have troubles running my new random-orbit
sander right.

The first time I did this, I found two small spots (after staining)
that showed corkscrew sanding marks. I sanded them out by hand and
restained over them, and they seemed OK.

This time, even though I was being extra-careful, I've got corkscrew
marks all over the place. There must be at least 6-8 of them. And
naturally you can't see them until you stain.

Am I doing something wrong here? Should I only use the random-orbit
sander for rough sanding, removing material, etc, and use a regular
sander for everything else? Except most of these marks probably came
from the 40/60 grit, didn't they??

sigh

This is why I gave up on the random orbital sanders - seemed like maybe
some spot got clogged and *that* made the marks? Wasn't sure and the marks
really stand out. I've noticed the same in some craft show work.

Josie

I went over it with 150 and 220, and got it to a glassy-smooth finish.
But I apparently have troubles running my new random-orbit sander
right.

The first time I did this, I found two small spots (after staining)
that showed corkscrew sanding marks. I sanded them out by hand and
restained over them, and they seemed OK.

This time, even though I was being extra-careful, I've got corkscrew
marks all over the place. There must be at least 6-8 of them. And
naturally you can't see them until you stain.

Am I doing something wrong here? Should I only use the random-orbit
sander for rough sanding, removing material, etc, and use a regular
sander for everything else? Except most of these marks probably came
from the 40/60 grit, didn't they??

sigh