Folks -

Today I spent most of the day doing honest work - shoveling dirt. I
cleared out 3 1/2 piles of dirt along the outside 24' wall - about 10-15
wheelbarrows per pile... We've got LOTS of dirt.... Anyway, I cleaned
things up around the trenches in preparation for bringing in materials for
building the forms and all. I called the Building Inspector today and axed
if he was available for some general and rebar-ish questions. He was more
than accommodating and came by in the afternoon. He immediately saw the
problem I had with "Deliverance Backhoe and Freakshow"... I explained the
problem with the variances in the trenches and he suggested a three-part
pour... which is what I was kinda wondering about anyway. He clarified
the questions I had about rebar placement and made a couple of other good
suggestions. I was up-front with him and tole him I may well ask him some
obvious, dumb-ass grade question... but that this was new territory... He
appreciated the candor...

Anyway, he suggested that I pour the footings alone, with a "key" channel in
the middle, then pour the stem walls on top of footings - bring in any
fill/sand/rock and make sure it's compacted well, then pour the slab.
Tonight, it makes sense.... I want to reduce the "pucker factor threat vs.
blowing the budget" factors to the best degree possible. The North wall
trench is only 12" wide... and ~22 deep... The South Trench is 24" wide and
up to 29" deep; the West trench is 19" wide and ~24" deep.... I haven't
finished clearing out the East trench that abuts the garage yet but I expect
it'll be at least 20" wide and 20" deep. Remember, I was shooting for 16"
wide, 18" below grade...

So, for the North trench footing I don't need any forms - it'll just be 12"
wide. The other 3 sides I'll set the forms 12" apart and set the height at
10" below grade all the way around. I have to have the stem wall a minimum
of 6" below grade, so with this I estimate that the 6" stem wall will be
14-16" tall to leave me 4" for the slab level with the garage.

I am going to put 2 runs all around the perimeter (120" total) of #4 rebar
on 3" dobies in the base of the footings, another in about the middle of the
stemwall, and one at the top that will be enclosed in the slab pour. I am
going to put vertical reinforcements in on 16" centers that will extend to
the bottom of the stem wall, come up and bend 90 degrees and be buried in
the slab. The inspector said that if they extended into the slab by about a
foot that that would do it.

I refigured my cost estimates based on this new configuration and all of the
materials come to $4,030, including about $700 for lumber for the forms that
I'll prolly use for a greenhouse. The cost of the concrete includes
delivery, so multiple deliveries won't screw me up cost wise...

Here's the quick cost summary:

W" H" Lineal Ft Ttl Yds Material Total Yds
Qty unit price ttl
12 12 48 1.78 Concrete for 2 24' Footings 1.78
100 191.11
18 12 36 2.00 Concrete for South Footing 2.00
100 215.00
12 18 36 2.00 Concrete for North Footing 2.00
100 215.00
6 18 120 3.33 Concrete for Stem Wall 3.33
100 358.33
W' L' Thick "
24 36 4 10.66 Concrete for Slab 10.66
100 1145.52
24 36 5 13.32 Sand 13.32
22 315.02
0.00 0.00 0.00

Total for Aggregates 2439.98

Foundation Materials
#4 1/2 Rebar 20' 33 2.65 94.01
5/8 - 10" Anchor Bolts 40 0.54 23.22
3x3 Dobies 90 0.55 53.21
16'x100' Tyvek VB 1 30 32.25
Rebar Ties, 1000 1 10.69 11.49
2"x6"x20' for forms 40 15 645.00
Misc. Lumber & Supplies 1 100 107.50
Total Foundation Materials 966.68

Subcontractor/Equipment
Compactor (day) 2 days 60 64.50
Rebar Cutter/Bender 1 Week 95 102.13
Backhoe Svc 1 Each 425 456.88
Total Services 623.50

Total Materials & Services Estimate 4030.17

Sorry if the view doesn't quite make sense... I pasted from Excel... you can
get the drift of it tho'...


So, that's the view of things for today.


John

Thats more $$ than I have in my whole shop! Is there some reason why you
must have such a beefy footing? I poured mine monolythic, (slab & footings
at the same time) with rebar in the footings and wire in the slab over a
sheet of visqueen. Is there some reason why you cannot do the same, or want
to? I'm in Georgia so that may be the difference. Are you up in the north?
grin Is this shop going to be multiple levels?

Please, don't mention "Deliverance" anymore, I can't bear to have the
picture of Ned Beatty squealing like a pig in my head again today.... hehehe

"John Moorhead" wrote in message
...
Folks -

Today I spent most of the day doing honest work - shoveling dirt. I
cleared out 3 1/2 piles of dirt along the outside 24' wall - about 10-15
wheelbarrows per pile... We've got LOTS of dirt.... Anyway, I cleaned
things up around the trenches in preparation for bringing in materials for
building the forms and all. I called the Building Inspector today and
axed
if he was available for some general and rebar-ish questions. He was more
than accommodating and came by in the afternoon. He immediately saw the
problem I had with "Deliverance Backhoe and Freakshow"... I explained the
problem with the variances in the trenches and he suggested a three-part
pour... which is what I was kinda wondering about anyway. He clarified
the questions I had about rebar placement and made a couple of other good
suggestions. I was up-front with him and tole him I may well ask him some
obvious, dumb-ass grade question... but that this was new territory... He
appreciated the candor...

Anyway, he suggested that I pour the footings alone, with a "key" channel
in
the middle, then pour the stem walls on top of footings - bring in any
fill/sand/rock and make sure it's compacted well, then pour the slab.
Tonight, it makes sense.... I want to reduce the "pucker factor threat
vs.
blowing the budget" factors to the best degree possible. The North wall
trench is only 12" wide... and ~22 deep... The South Trench is 24" wide
and
up to 29" deep; the West trench is 19" wide and ~24" deep.... I haven't
finished clearing out the East trench that abuts the garage yet but I
expect
it'll be at least 20" wide and 20" deep. Remember, I was shooting for 16"
wide, 18" below grade...

So, for the North trench footing I don't need any forms - it'll just be
12"
wide. The other 3 sides I'll set the forms 12" apart and set the height
at
10" below grade all the way around. I have to have the stem wall a
minimum
of 6" below grade, so with this I estimate that the 6" stem wall will be
14-16" tall to leave me 4" for the slab level with the garage.

I am going to put 2 runs all around the perimeter (120" total) of #4 rebar
on 3" dobies in the base of the footings, another in about the middle of
the
stemwall, and one at the top that will be enclosed in the slab pour. I am
going to put vertical reinforcements in on 16" centers that will extend to
the bottom of the stem wall, come up and bend 90 degrees and be buried in
the slab. The inspector said that if they extended into the slab by about
a
foot that that would do it.

I refigured my cost estimates based on this new configuration and all of
the
materials come to $4,030, including about $700 for lumber for the forms
that
I'll prolly use for a greenhouse. The cost of the concrete includes
delivery, so multiple deliveries won't screw me up cost wise...

Here's the quick cost summary:

W" H" Lineal Ft Ttl Yds Material Total Yds
Qty unit price ttl
12 12 48 1.78 Concrete for 2 24' Footings 1.78
100 191.11
18 12 36 2.00 Concrete for South Footing 2.00
100 215.00
12 18 36 2.00 Concrete for North Footing 2.00
100 215.00
6 18 120 3.33 Concrete for Stem Wall 3.33
100 358.33
W' L' Thick "
24 36 4 10.66 Concrete for Slab 10.66
100 1145.52
24 36 5 13.32 Sand
13.32
22 315.02
0.00 0.00 0.00

Total for Aggregates 2439.98

Foundation Materials
#4 1/2 Rebar 20' 33 2.65 94.01
5/8 - 10" Anchor Bolts 40 0.54 23.22
3x3 Dobies 90 0.55 53.21
16'x100' Tyvek VB 1 30 32.25
Rebar Ties, 1000 1 10.69 11.49
2"x6"x20' for forms 40 15 645.00
Misc. Lumber & Supplies 1 100 107.50
Total Foundation Materials 966.68

Subcontractor/Equipment
Compactor (day) 2 days 60 64.50
Rebar Cutter/Bender 1 Week 95 102.13
Backhoe Svc 1 Each 425 456.88
Total Services 623.50

Total Materials & Services Estimate 4030.17

Sorry if the view doesn't quite make sense... I pasted from Excel... you
can
get the drift of it tho'...


So, that's the view of things for today.


John

Mark -

Dang! You're lucky.... Well concrete is $100+ per yard and by my most
economical estimates I'll be using 20 yards. As for the footings, code for
my area calls for 12"x12", with a stem wall that is a minimum of 6"x6" with
a 4" slab. I have to bring the slab level with the garage, and to do that,
I need to make the stem wall about 18" tall. I have to have 4 pcs of rebar
in the footings/stemwall all around the perimeter, verticals tying the stem
wall to the slab ever 16" and the footings tied to the garage footings every
16".

Mind you, this is with the wife and I doing all of our own labor. I did get
estimates early on, but most of the foundation contractors wouldn't give me
the time of day for such a "small project" - go figure.... Anyway, the
cheapest estimate I got was $9,000, the highest was over $12k... and that is
JUST for the excavation, footings and slab... I still would have had to
clear out vegetation and debris on the pad area. That works out to between
$10.42 and $13.88 per square foot, just for the foundation.... It's NUTS!

Based on my estimates, my fdn cost will run about 4 bucks a square foot, not
counting the form lumber... If I include the lumber it runs just over $4.50
a SF.

Because of the way the trenches were cut, I need to go with the method I've
described, or buy about another grand worth of concrete. I can reuse the
lumber for the forms, so that will be a bit of a help.

I would have loved to have been able to do a monolithic pour, but doing it
in smaller steps will be wiser, given my lack of experience.

John


"Mark Hopkins" wrote in message
...
Thats more $$ than I have in my whole shop! Is there some reason why you
must have such a beefy footing? I poured mine monolythic, (slab &
footings
at the same time) with rebar in the footings and wire in the slab over a
sheet of visqueen. Is there some reason why you cannot do the same, or
want
to? I'm in Georgia so that may be the difference. Are you up in the
north?
grin Is this shop going to be multiple levels?

Please, don't mention "Deliverance" anymore, I can't bear to have the
picture of Ned Beatty squealing like a pig in my head again today....
hehehe

"John Moorhead" wrote in message
...
Folks -

Today I spent most of the day doing honest work - shoveling dirt. I
cleared out 3 1/2 piles of dirt along the outside 24' wall - about 10-15
wheelbarrows per pile... We've got LOTS of dirt.... Anyway, I cleaned
things up around the trenches in preparation for bringing in materials
for
building the forms and all. I called the Building Inspector today and
axed
if he was available for some general and rebar-ish questions. He was
more
than accommodating and came by in the afternoon. He immediately saw the
problem I had with "Deliverance Backhoe and Freakshow"... I explained
the
problem with the variances in the trenches and he suggested a three-part
pour... which is what I was kinda wondering about anyway. He
clarified
the questions I had about rebar placement and made a couple of other
good
suggestions. I was up-front with him and tole him I may well ask him
some
obvious, dumb-ass grade question... but that this was new territory...
He
appreciated the candor...

Anyway, he suggested that I pour the footings alone, with a "key"
channel
in
the middle, then pour the stem walls on top of footings - bring in any
fill/sand/rock and make sure it's compacted well, then pour the slab.
Tonight, it makes sense.... I want to reduce the "pucker factor threat
vs.
blowing the budget" factors to the best degree possible. The North wall
trench is only 12" wide... and ~22 deep... The South Trench is 24" wide
and
up to 29" deep; the West trench is 19" wide and ~24" deep.... I haven't
finished clearing out the East trench that abuts the garage yet but I
expect
it'll be at least 20" wide and 20" deep. Remember, I was shooting for
16"
wide, 18" below grade...

So, for the North trench footing I don't need any forms - it'll just be
12"
wide. The other 3 sides I'll set the forms 12" apart and set the height
at
10" below grade all the way around. I have to have the stem wall a
minimum
of 6" below grade, so with this I estimate that the 6" stem wall will be
14-16" tall to leave me 4" for the slab level with the garage.

I am going to put 2 runs all around the perimeter (120" total) of #4
rebar
on 3" dobies in the base of the footings, another in about the middle of
the
stemwall, and one at the top that will be enclosed in the slab pour. I
am
going to put vertical reinforcements in on 16" centers that will extend
to
the bottom of the stem wall, come up and bend 90 degrees and be buried
in
the slab. The inspector said that if they extended into the slab by
about
a
foot that that would do it.

I refigured my cost estimates based on this new configuration and all of
the
materials come to $4,030, including about $700 for lumber for the forms
that
I'll prolly use for a greenhouse. The cost of the concrete includes
delivery, so multiple deliveries won't screw me up cost wise...

Here's the quick cost summary:

W" H" Lineal Ft Ttl Yds Material Total
Yds
Qty unit price ttl
12 12 48 1.78 Concrete for 2 24' Footings 1.78
100 191.11
18 12 36 2.00 Concrete for South Footing 2.00
100 215.00
12 18 36 2.00 Concrete for North Footing 2.00
100 215.00
6 18 120 3.33 Concrete for Stem Wall 3.33
100 358.33
W' L' Thick "
24 36 4 10.66 Concrete for Slab 10.66
100 1145.52
24 36 5 13.32 Sand
13.32
22 315.02
0.00 0.00 0.00

Total for Aggregates 2439.98

Foundation Materials
#4 1/2 Rebar 20' 33 2.65 94.01
5/8 - 10" Anchor Bolts 40 0.54 23.22
3x3 Dobies 90 0.55 53.21
16'x100' Tyvek VB 1 30 32.25
Rebar Ties, 1000 1 10.69 11.49
2"x6"x20' for forms 40 15 645.00
Misc. Lumber & Supplies 1 100 107.50
Total Foundation Materials 966.68

Subcontractor/Equipment
Compactor (day) 2 days 60 64.50
Rebar Cutter/Bender 1 Week 95 102.13
Backhoe Svc 1 Each 425 456.88
Total Services 623.50

Total Materials & Services Estimate 4030.17

Sorry if the view doesn't quite make sense... I pasted from Excel... you
can
get the drift of it tho'...


So, that's the view of things for today.


John

"Mark Hopkins" wrote in
:

Thats more $$ than I have in my whole shop! Is there some reason why
you must have such a beefy footing?

John lives in Northern California earthquake country, as well as in an area
with somewhat expansive soils. Codes take that into account. Even when
we're not trying to overengineer things, new construction, actually
inspected, tends to cost more.

Next time you get to the Bay Area, check out what passes for a $1M house.

Patriarch

That explains it. Pouring it level with the existing garage. You are on the
right track to making that inspector happy. Sometimes they can save you
money. I got several estimates for the concrete work, but it seems everyone
was either starving or greedy around here. One Mexican guy I met at the borg
was the most reasonable. He wanted .50 (yes, 50 cents) a square foot but
couldn't do it for about a month. I kept his number for future jobs. Nice
guy too. I wish I spoke spanish or he better english.

My site was almost level to begin with but the inspector made me go deep on
the lower end due to softer soil. It was pick and shovel for a while since
some of the dirt was very, VERY hard. I used a tiller to dig most of it over
several weeks. I have taken my time on it. I still have about 1/4 of it to
put siding on. Its pretty much weather tight now, wired and I still have a
couple of final inspections left to get through. So far so good, we have had
some storms lately with heavy rain and no leaks.

I bought most of the materials last year and stored them. I was glad I did
that. I bought OSB when it was $4.73 a sheet. If I had waited, it would have
been $18.00+ a sheet. Now its back down to around $11 a sheet. Studs were
$1.53 then too, now at $3.11. I got lucky on the concrete as it was only $60
a yard since my father is tight with the owner of the company. 11 yards in
the footings and slab. Metal roofing cost me $1.29 a foot and I had to
install it. Nice charcoal gray color. Remind me to tell the story about the
tarp and the city ordinance I got a ticket for before I poured the slab.
(roof is about the same color as the tarp was) evil grin

I did the slab with the help of a neighbor and have built the rest by myself
a stick at a time. Its been fun. (HA!) My roof is pretty steep (6.5/12) with
a cathedral type ceiling in 2/3 of the interior. I built an 8 foot high
section to support the garage door and give me some lumber storage space
above. I used the sheathing that has a foil backing over polystyrene both on
the exterior walls and on the roof between the 1/4's for the metal roofing.
With just the walls insulated to 8 feet the place is pretty cool so far this
summer. I still have some insulation to install in the rafters and on the
ends of the gables. I think it will be nice and toasty this winter in there.



"John Moorhead" wrote in message
m...
Mark -

Dang! You're lucky.... Well concrete is $100+ per yard and by my most
economical estimates I'll be using 20 yards. As for the footings, code
for
my area calls for 12"x12", with a stem wall that is a minimum of 6"x6"
with
a 4" slab. I have to bring the slab level with the garage, and to do
that,
I need to make the stem wall about 18" tall. I have to have 4 pcs of
rebar
in the footings/stemwall all around the perimeter, verticals tying the
stem
wall to the slab ever 16" and the footings tied to the garage footings
every
16".

Mind you, this is with the wife and I doing all of our own labor. I did
get
estimates early on, but most of the foundation contractors wouldn't give
me
the time of day for such a "small project" - go figure.... Anyway, the
cheapest estimate I got was $9,000, the highest was over $12k... and that
is
JUST for the excavation, footings and slab... I still would have had to
clear out vegetation and debris on the pad area. That works out to
between
$10.42 and $13.88 per square foot, just for the foundation.... It's NUTS!

Based on my estimates, my fdn cost will run about 4 bucks a square foot,
not
counting the form lumber... If I include the lumber it runs just over
$4.50
a SF.

Because of the way the trenches were cut, I need to go with the method
I've
described, or buy about another grand worth of concrete. I can reuse the
lumber for the forms, so that will be a bit of a help.

I would have loved to have been able to do a monolithic pour, but doing it
in smaller steps will be wiser, given my lack of experience.

John

That explains a lot! I thought they were into fires and mudslides these
days? I guess if you make a structure heavy enough on the bottom, it will
always stay in the right side up position. Hehehehehehe

I can imagine not very much passes for a $1M house these days anywhere. We
have a shake or two here in Georgia, but nothing nowhere near as harsh as
California....

"patriarch astDOTnet" patriarch wrote in message
.17...
"Mark Hopkins" wrote in
:

Thats more $$ than I have in my whole shop! Is there some reason why
you must have such a beefy footing?

John lives in Northern California earthquake country, as well as in an
area
with somewhat expansive soils. Codes take that into account. Even when
we're not trying to overengineer things, new construction, actually
inspected, tends to cost more.

Next time you get to the Bay Area, check out what passes for a $1M house.

Patriarch

patriarch wrote:

"Mark Hopkins" wrote in
:

Thats more $$ than I have in my whole shop! Is there some
reason why you must have such a beefy footing?

John lives in Northern California earthquake country, as well
as in an area with somewhat expansive soils. Codes take that
into account. Even when we're not trying to overengineer
things, new construction, actually inspected, tends to cost
more.

Next time you get to the Bay Area, check out what passes for a
$1M house.

I saved a copy of the SJ Mercury's full-page photo of a tiny
bungalow with the copy: "You always wanted a million dollar
estate - you just thought it would be more than 750 square feet."

Made me wonder how young families/teachers/police/firefighters
manage to cope. At some point it would seem that the Bay Area
must price itself such that there won't be any public services.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto, Iowa USA

On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 19:39:43 GMT, patriarch
calmly ranted:

"Mark Hopkins" wrote in
:

Thats more $$ than I have in my whole shop! Is there some reason why
you must have such a beefy footing?

John lives in Northern California earthquake country, as well as in an area
with somewhat expansive soils. Codes take that into account. Even when
we're not trying to overengineer things, new construction, actually
inspected, tends to cost more.

Next time you get to the Bay Area, check out what passes for a $1M house.

My buddy's mom sold her 800s/f 2br(?) house on a quarter
acre lot in NorCal for $525k last year. Half a mil for a
crackerbox that probably cost $10k to build in the 40's?

I'd hate to be holding title to an overpriced box there
when the bottom falls out. Say, in November, if the Shrub
makes it back in office...


--
ALL YOUR FEARS ARE LIES
-----------------------
http://diversify.com UNfearful Websites

Mark Hopkins wrote:

That explains a lot! I thought they were into fires and mudslides these
days? I guess if you make a structure heavy enough on the bottom, it will
always stay in the right side up position. Hehehehehehe

I can imagine not very much passes for a $1M house these days anywhere. We
have a shake or two here in Georgia, but nothing nowhere near as harsh as
California....

"patriarch astDOTnet" patriarch wrote in message
9.17...


"Mark Hopkins" wrote in
:



Thats more $$ than I have in my whole shop! Is there some reason why
you must have such a beefy footing?


John lives in Northern California earthquake country, as well as in an


area


with somewhat expansive soils. Codes take that into account. Even when
we're not trying to overengineer things, new construction, actually
inspected, tends to cost more.

Next time you get to the Bay Area, check out what passes for a $1M house.

Patriarch






Shhhh! Keep quiet! It's hasn't shaken around here for a while and I'm
afraid you'll wake the earthquake gods!

On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 21:04:21 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

My buddy's mom sold her 800s/f 2br(?) house on a quarter
acre lot in NorCal for $525k last year. Half a mil for a
crackerbox that probably cost $10k to build in the 40's?

Probably cost less than half that in the 40s. A lot of those 750 -
1000 square foot tract houses only cost $3500 or so to build.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

Morris Dovey wrote in
:

Next time you get to the Bay Area, check out what passes for a
$1M house.

I saved a copy of the SJ Mercury's full-page photo of a tiny
bungalow with the copy: "You always wanted a million dollar
estate - you just thought it would be more than 750 square feet."

Made me wonder how young families/teachers/police/firefighters
manage to cope. At some point it would seem that the Bay Area
must price itself such that there won't be any public services.


There are multiple efforts underway to make things work for public employee
types, because that's an identifiable group of people. It's also a limited
size group, and one that has, for the most part, good public support.

The young families part is the one we haven't figured out yet. And I have
four sons, between 24 and 30. Well educated, hard working, and willing to
rebuild older housing stock, something is going to work out, but exactly
what, isn't clear right yet.

Saw an older Victorian in central Oakland today, in a pretty tough
neighborhood. The good news was the adult children, up on scaffolding,
repainting and repairing the building, older than their parents.

Makes you feel good. It doesn't always take a Habitat for Humanity...

Patriarch

"Mark Hopkins" wrote in
:

That explains a lot! I thought they were into fires and mudslides
these days? I guess if you make a structure heavy enough on the
bottom, it will always stay in the right side up position.
Hehehehehehe


Fire season runs through late October. Mudslides generally don't start
until almost Christmas. It's unusual when we have both in the same week.

Patriarch

patriarch wrote:

"Mark Hopkins" wrote in
:


That explains a lot! I thought they were into fires and mudslides
these days? I guess if you make a structure heavy enough on the
bottom, it will always stay in the right side up position.
Hehehehehehe



Fire season runs through late October. Mudslides generally don't start
until almost Christmas. It's unusual when we have both in the same week.

Patriarch

Last year, an early November snowfall cooled the LA fires down
considerably. The way things were going, I figured that we would get a
real frog-strangler downpour which would wash the snow, the fire, and us
down to the flat lands. The gully-washer didn't occur until Christmas
day however.
gloom,
jo4hn