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Non-Metalic Wire?
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Non-Metalic Wire?
On Saturday, March 9, 2019 at 10:38:52 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 9 Mar 2019 08:47:19 -0600, dpb wrote: On 3/8/2019 10:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote: ... Electric power plants use pure, distilled, H2O to cool their generators. Â*If that water conducted electricity, it would short out the generators. At least, that's what my electrical engineer buddy who works for the 3rd largest power supplier in the US tells me. While air, water and oil all have been (and still are in some cases) used for cooling, modern large power generators use H gas for generator cooling since its comparable low density, high specific heat and thermal conductivity allows a significant improvement in efficiency and commensurate reduction in size/expense.v Hydrogen sounds really dangerous around a generator (unless it's used as the fuel also). He is used as a coolant and, like water, won't go boom. He is as non-reactive as you can get. I don't know about that. I remember the time I called him an A-hole. He reacted rather violently. ;-) |
Non-Metalic Wire?
On 3/9/2019 10:32 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
.... Correction.Â* Inflammable and flammable are synonyms.Â* I believe the word you're looking for is nonflammable. Good catch, thanks. Was _really_ intending "inert", but sometimes the fingers just go on their own, it seems. --dpb |
Non-Metalic Wire?
On 3/9/19 8:47 AM, dpb wrote:
On 3/8/2019 10:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote: ... Electric power plants use pure, distilled, H2O to cool their generators. Â*Â*If that water conducted electricity, it would short out the generators. At least, that's what my electrical engineer buddy who works for the 3rd largest power supplier in the US tells me. While air, water and oil all have been (and still are in some cases) used for cooling, modern large power generators use H gas for generator cooling since its comparable low density, high specific heat and thermal conductivity allows a significant improvement in efficiency and commensurate reduction in size/expense. -- Ok. -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- www.mikedrums.com |
Non-Metalic Wire?
On 3/9/19 10:32 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 3/9/2019 9:48 AM, dpb wrote: Correction.Â* Inflammable and flammable are synonyms.Â* I believe the word you're looking for is nonflammable. That always cracked me up. I always have to remember inflammable means able to be inflamed. I usually think of it as inflammable = in-flames. -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- www.mikedrums.com |
Non-Metalic Wire?
On 3/9/2019 11:06 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 3/9/19 8:47 AM, dpb wrote: On 3/8/2019 10:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote: ... Electric power plants use pure, distilled, H2O to cool their generators. Â*Â*If that water conducted electricity, it would short out the generators. At least, that's what my electrical engineer buddy who works for the 3rd largest power supplier in the US tells me. While air, water and oil all have been (and still are in some cases) used for cooling, modern large power generators use H gas for generator cooling since its comparable low density, high specific heat and thermal conductivity allows a significant improvement in efficiency and commensurate reduction in size/expense. -- Ok. I remember being exceedingly surprised and amazed when I was first introduced to this as a young'un not long out of school on first exposure to the real plant environment as opposed to running reactor core power distribution calculations for power peaking limits... :) That was 50 year ago now at what was at the time the highest thermal efficiency coal-fired generating station in the world...TVA's Bull Run station just outside Oak Ridge, TN. It was one of the very first super-critical steam cycle plants. Had been to TVA HQ in Knoxville on sales/support mission for new nuclear unit they were considering; they offered tour to a couple plant sites, one of which was Bull Run, the other Sequoyah, a competitors' nuclear station so I turned that one down and went to Bull Run instead. :) -- |
Non-Metalic Wire?
On Sat, 9 Mar 2019 09:48:56 -0600, dpb wrote:
On 3/9/2019 9:38 AM, wrote: On Sat, 9 Mar 2019 08:47:19 -0600, dpb wrote: On 3/8/2019 10:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote: ... Electric power plants use pure, distilled, H2O to cool their generators. *If that water conducted electricity, it would short out the generators. At least, that's what my electrical engineer buddy who works for the 3rd largest power supplier in the US tells me. While air, water and oil all have been (and still are in some cases) used for cooling, modern large power generators use H gas for generator cooling since its comparable low density, high specific heat and thermal conductivity allows a significant improvement in efficiency and commensurate reduction in size/expense. Hydrogen sounds really dangerous around a generator (unless it's used as the fuel also). He is used as a coolant and, like water, won't go boom. He is as non-reactive as you can get. Sounds that way, doesn't it? :) But is so. He is inflammable, true, but as a gas has lousy heat transfer properties in comparison and so is comparatively poor for the purpose. LIQUID He is used for superconducting applications, but that's not this application at all. I think you meant "not-flammable". "Inflammable" doesn't mean what you think it does. ;-) No, not cryogenic He. He gas has great heat transfer properties, at least for a gas. It has a very high mobility and is more massive than H, so will transfer more per mole. We used it to fill electronics modules for exactly that reason (and it was non-reactive). And, "no, I'm not making this up!" -- spent 30+ years, first in commercial nuclear generation and then transitioned over to fossil... https://www.power-eng.com/articles/print/volume-113/issue-6/features/hydrogen-cools-well-but-safety-is-crucial.html |
Non-Metalic Wire?
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Non-Metalic Wire?
On 3/9/2019 12:52 PM, dpb wrote:
.... 70% or so of all turbine-generators over 50-60 MWe wouldn't use H cooling if it weren't a marked advantage. .... Which, of course, doesn't negate that it may be used for other applications as your example. Large central-station generating units are very large, very complex and very expensive and the payback of a little extra efficiency is sufficiently high they can afford the added complexity in handling H. For other uses, the handling issues can easily be prohibitive. -- |
Non-Metalic Wire?
Electric power plants use pure, distilled, H2O to cool their generators. *If that water conducted electricity, it would short out the generators. At least, that's what my electrical engineer buddy who works for the 3rd largest power supplier in the US tells me. Our nuclear power plants use " heavy water " for that very reason - so that gravity will assure that the short-circuit-current will flow to ground .. With regular old tap water - the electrons might go anywhere ! John T. |
Non-Metalic Wire?
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Non-Metalic Wire?
On 3/8/2019 8:51 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 8 Mar 2019 11:12:19 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03 wrote: On Friday, March 8, 2019 at 1:25:44 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote: On 3/8/2019 11:12 AM, -MIKE- wrote: On 3/8/19 11:03 AM, Leon wrote: I saw this and was wondering how long it has been around and how does it work.Â* What is it made out of to deliver electricity? https://www.lowesforpros.com/pd/Sout...e-Roll/1193433 What am I missing?Â* Are they actually talking about the casing?Â* The casing is not wire... I believe the Non-Metallic (NM) means the sheathing is made of plastic, not metal. There are times when it's required to have metal-sheathed wire and times when you can use Romex, non-metallic sheathed wire. So that's the designation.Â* MC for metal clad, and NM for non-metallic. Understood but it specifically says non metallic "wire". And I do not ever recall Romex ever being called metallic or non metallic. It's not uncommon, assuming that you accept that by referring to something by using the initials NM, it is being referred to as non-metallic. https://www.thespruce.com/what-does-...m-mean-1821530 "Romex® is the specific brand name for a non-metallic (NM) building wire made by Southwire. In other words, Romex® is technically just one brand of NM cable. However, the term Romex is often used generically (though inaccurately) to describe any type of NM cable, no matter which manufacturer made it." "Romex" is not wire - it is CABLE. A "wire" is a single conductor Yes, and further confuses the matter. LOL |
Non-Metalic Wire?
On Sat, 9 Mar 2019 15:21:19 -0600, dpb wrote:
On 3/9/2019 3:16 PM, wrote: Electric power plants use pure, distilled, H2O to cool their generators. *If that water conducted electricity, it would short out the generators. At least, that's what my electrical engineer buddy who works for the 3rd largest power supplier in the US tells me. Our nuclear power plants use " heavy water " for that very reason - so that gravity will assure that the short-circuit-current will flow to ground .. With regular old tap water - the electrons might go anywhere ! John T. Chuckles... I'm old enough to remember when there were HV transformers that were cooled with get this - water ! Including my fav transformer cooling - on a EHV international tie-line, no less - where the big old thang would get some extra MVA with the cooling rads being sprayed with water - in addition to the usual oil pumps and cooling fans .. John T. |
Non-Metalic Wire?
On 3/8/2019 8:26 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 8 Mar 2019 11:03:11 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote: I saw this and was wondering how long it has been around and how does it work. What is it made out of to deliver electricity? https://www.lowesforpros.com/pd/Sout...e-Roll/1193433 What am I missing? Are they actually talking about the casing? The casing is not wire... It is non metallic sheathed cable by definiution - has copper conductors. What do you expect af a big box store's description of technical products??? LOL, I exported more. But in this "every one gets a trophy" society of uneducated people.... |
Non-Metalic Wire?
On 3/8/2019 3:56 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Markem writes: On Fri, 8 Mar 2019 12:25:28 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote: And while I am on the soap box, When did the word button start being pronounced but-in. Garden, now pronounced gar-din. Classic example of school no longer teaching students how to read the dictionary. Classic example of geographical variation, y'all. LOL!!! That is short for you all. The words I have trouble with, I don't recall hearing them pronounced that way 15+ years ago. |
Non-Metalic Wire?
On 3/8/2019 8:48 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 8 Mar 2019 12:25:28 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote: On 3/8/2019 11:12 AM, -MIKE- wrote: On 3/8/19 11:03 AM, Leon wrote: I saw this and was wondering how long it has been around and how does it work.Â* What is it made out of to deliver electricity? https://www.lowesforpros.com/pd/Sout...e-Roll/1193433 What am I missing?Â* Are they actually talking about the casing?Â* The casing is not wire... I believe the Non-Metallic (NM) means the sheathing is made of plastic, not metal. There are times when it's required to have metal-sheathed wire and times when you can use Romex, non-metallic sheathed wire. So that's the designation.Â* MC for metal clad, and NM for non-metallic. Understood but it specifically says non metallic "wire". And I do not ever recall Romex ever being called metallic or non metallic. Probably another situation where those persons naming parts or describing something have no idea what the meaning of words are. Functionality, never needed to replace the word function. And for that matter, "almost any word that has had "ality" added in the last 10~12 years. Utilize, never needed to replace the word use. And while I am on the soap box, When did the word button start being pronounced but-in. Garden, now pronounced gar-din. Classic example of school no longer teaching students how to read the dictionary. All future left voters. I thought it was the inbread homeschooled backwoods southern repugnicans who couldn't read or write past a 3rd grade level. Those and the sons of rich new york mobsters that run for president as a way to "improve their brand" In other word - current "right" voters (or at least TRUMP voters) and Trump offspring Could be some of them in there too but I'd be willing to bet it is mostly those caught on Youtube boo-hooing like 5 year olds when they learned that Trump won. So it is getting worse on how words are being pronounced. Even Savannah Guthrie on the Today show was saying but-in the other day, I don't recall her saying it that way in the past. That word is like a sore thumb every time I hear it. That and functionality. It all falls in line with taking down Confederate flaga, statues, excreta. Anything that reminds any one of a past they would like to forget. The problem with that is that if you do not study the past/history you are bound to repeat it. Burning books will be next. |
Non-Metalic Wire?
On 3/8/2019 9:50 PM, Colin Campbell wrote:
On Fri, 08 Mar 2019 21:48:27 -0500, Clare Snyder wrote: I thought it was the inbread homeschooled backwoods southern repugnicans who couldn't read or write past a 3rd grade level. Those and the sons of rich new york mobsters that run for president as a way to "improve their brand" In other word - current "right" voters (or at least TRUMP voters) and Trump offspring Looks like time to update the killfile: this kind of snide ad hominem bull**** is a complete waste of time, and totally out of place in an exchange of ideas and experience of woodworking. Colin You should probably hang around longer before kill filing any one. I would say you might be a recent poster, I don't recall you being on this group in the past few years. Many of us here have been here sine the last millennium. And as we get older we kinda become less tolerant. and go off on a tangent. ;~) |
Non-Metalic Wire?
DerbyDad03 wrote in
: On Saturday, March 9, 2019 at 10:38:52 AM UTC-5, wrote: Hydrogen sounds really dangerous around a generator (unless it's used as the fuel also). He is used as a coolant and, like water, won't go boom. He is as non-reactive as you can get. I don't know about that. I remember the time I called him an A-hole. He reacted rather violently. ;-) Someone's written a lengthy article on his life: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Hydrogen Puckdropper -- http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst! |
Non-Metalic Wire?
On Saturday, March 9, 2019 at 5:24:45 PM UTC-5, Puckdropper wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote in : On Saturday, March 9, 2019 at 10:38:52 AM UTC-5, wrote: Hydrogen sounds really dangerous around a generator (unless it's used as the fuel also). He is used as a coolant and, like water, won't go boom. He is as non-reactive as you can get. I don't know about that. I remember the time I called him an A-hole. He reacted rather violently. ;-) Someone's written a lengthy article on his life: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Hydrogen Very nice! |
Non-Metalic Wire?
On Sat, 09 Mar 2019 16:22:49 -0600, Leon wrote:
On 3/8/2019 9:50 PM, Colin Campbell wrote: On Fri, 08 Mar 2019 21:48:27 -0500, Clare Snyder wrote: I thought it was the inbread homeschooled backwoods southern repugnicans who couldn't read or write past a 3rd grade level. Those and the sons of rich new york mobsters that run for president as a way to "improve their brand" In other word - current "right" voters (or at least TRUMP voters) and Trump offspring Looks like time to update the killfile: this kind of snide ad hominem bull**** is a complete waste of time, and totally out of place in an exchange of ideas and experience of woodworking. Colin You should probably hang around longer before kill filing any one. I would say you might be a recent poster, I don't recall you being on this group in the past few years. Many of us here have been here sine the last millennium. And as we get older we kinda become less tolerant. and go off on a tangent. ;~) You're probably right, Leon; the comments caught me crossways after a long day, and I hit send before think. AAMOF, I've been following the NG for 3-4 years, just don't have a lot to say. I figure 2 eyes, 2 ears and only 1 mouth has to mean something. Thanks for the nudge, Leon! Colin |
Non-Metalic Wire?
On Sat, 9 Mar 2019 12:52:19 -0600, dpb wrote:
On 3/9/2019 11:56 AM, wrote: ... No, not cryogenic He. He gas has great heat transfer properties, at least for a gas. It has a very high mobility and is more massive than H, so will transfer more per mole. We used it to fill electronics modules for exactly that reason (and it was non-reactive). ... Not in comparison to H, it doesn't, no...the heat transfer characteristics outweigh He enough to use it extensively despite the flammability for turbine-generator cooling. H conductivity is ~20% higher, but the molar heat capacity is almost double He and the density is roughly half so one gets much more heat transport out that wins the thermal efficiency battle handily. 70% or so of all turbine-generators over 50-60 MWe wouldn't use H cooling if it weren't a marked advantage. I'm not aware of any using He altho there may well be a few. He is a lot more difficult to come by, particularly in the quantities that would be needed for large generators. |
Non-Metalic Wire?
On Sat, 9 Mar 2019 12:52:19 -0600, dpb wrote:
On 3/9/2019 11:56 AM, wrote: ... No, not cryogenic He. He gas has great heat transfer properties, at least for a gas. It has a very high mobility and is more massive than H, so will transfer more per mole. We used it to fill electronics modules for exactly that reason (and it was non-reactive). ... Not in comparison to H, it doesn't, no...the heat transfer characteristics outweigh He enough to use it extensively despite the flammability for turbine-generator cooling. H conductivity is ~20% higher, but the molar heat capacity is almost double He and the density is roughly half so one gets much more heat transport out that wins the thermal efficiency battle handily. 70% or so of all turbine-generators over 50-60 MWe wouldn't use H cooling if it weren't a marked advantage. Looking up the difference, I see that H is significantly better than He at high temperature but not so much at lower temperatures. In fact, H gets _much_ better at high temperature. Its lower mass really shows up. I'm not aware of any using He altho there may well be a few. |
Non-Metalic Wire?
On 3/9/2019 9:40 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 9 Mar 2019 12:52:19 -0600, dpb wrote: On 3/9/2019 11:56 AM, wrote: ... No, not cryogenic He. He gas has great heat transfer properties, at least for a gas. It has a very high mobility and is more massive than H, so will transfer more per mole. We used it to fill electronics modules for exactly that reason (and it was non-reactive). ... Not in comparison to H, it doesn't, no...the heat transfer characteristics outweigh He enough to use it extensively despite the flammability for turbine-generator cooling. H conductivity is ~20% higher, but the molar heat capacity is almost double He and the density is roughly half so one gets much more heat transport out that wins the thermal efficiency battle handily. .... Looking up the difference, I see that H is significantly better than He at high temperature but not so much at lower temperatures. In fact, H gets _much_ better at high temperature. Its lower mass really shows up. What I kept telling you... :) I don't know what your definition of a "high" temperature is, but the ~2X factors occur by 200F or thereabouts. Stator operating limits are just about there with typical alarm setpoints at 110 C. -- |
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