Hmmm.... I wonder how much the market can stand.

I saw on the Festool website that they are going to raise prices once again.. Obviously they are selling a lot of tools or they wouldn't be raising prices. Their quality is without doubt, as well is their engineering.

But I do have to think somewhere in the mix folks will say "enough". I truly believe that for someone like Leon that uses his Festool machines the way he does they are worth the price. Some of their tools aren't /that/ bad in their pricing, but they have long been out of range for the casual or part time woodworker that is trying to build a shop and needs a lot of basic tools.

As a full time professional I have always spent a lot of money on tools if I thought they were worth it. Back in the mid 70s, I spent $95 on a Milwaukee corded drill when I could buy Porter Cable (when it was quality!), Disston, Stanley commercial, and a couple of other professional brands for $50 to $65. Similarly, I bought my Milwaukee circular saw, and my Porter Cable trim carpenter's circular saw. At a couple of bucks an hour, it took me a while to be able to afford them. But since I literally made a living with those tools and relied on them to perform everyday, I was encouraged (instructed?) to purchase tools that would perform reliably and last on the job site. OK, I got that. That first Milwaukee tool still works (!), the PC trim circular saw still works(!), and I have a Milwaukee circular saw I bought new about 35 years ago that still works. They have seen a few lifetimes of work and still perform, so they were worth double, triple and even four times the price of the competing products.

But what about Festool? How are they positioning themselves in the market? They are too expensive to take to a job site as they would surely sprout legs and be gone in a day on some sites. When considering all the rigors, hard duty, misuse, accidents, and all the other site conditions that exist on a daily basis, no contractors or subcontractors I know use Festool products. Not even in their personal shops. Not a drill, not even a drill bit. So the folks I know that would get the most use out of them don't buy. With other contractors from other areas and even states, that is the case.

So I wonder, who is buying these tools? Is it the guy that likes driving a Maserati when a Ford will do? Is it the serious collector? And I would have to ask, does anyone know (even by internet acquaintance) besides Leon that use Festool products professionally, or even as a serious hobbyist that turns out a few projects a year?

I get pleasure from using really nice tools myself, but there has to be consideration for the quality/utility equation. The Domino machine, I truly get. There is no competitor, no machine on the market that does what it does. Kind of like when Lamello had the market on biscuit machines. But with it poised to most likely be over a $1000 now (and don't forget tax) who will be buying it? Beats me.

Anyway, for those that are thinking of buying, at least they have extended the courtesy of letting folks know there is a price boost coming.

Robert

On 2017-03-07 1:04 PM, wrote:

Hmmm.... I wonder how much the market can stand.

I saw on the Festool website that they are going to raise prices once again. Obviously they are selling a lot of tools or they wouldn't be raising prices. Their quality is without doubt, as well is their engineering.

But I do have to think somewhere in the mix folks will say "enough". I truly believe that for someone like Leon that uses his Festool machines the way he does they are worth the price. Some of their tools aren't /that/ bad in their pricing, but they have long been out of range for the casual or part time woodworker that is trying to build a shop and needs a lot of basic tools.

As a full time professional I have always spent a lot of money on tools if I thought they were worth it. Back in the mid 70s, I spent $95 on a Milwaukee corded drill when I could buy Porter Cable (when it was quality!), Disston, Stanley commercial, and a couple of other professional brands for $50 to $65. Similarly, I bought my Milwaukee circular saw, and my Porter Cable trim carpenter's circular saw. At a couple of bucks an hour, it took me a while to be able to afford them. But since I literally made a living with those tools and relied on them to perform everyday, I was encouraged (instructed?) to purchase tools that would perform reliably and last on the job site. OK, I got that. That first Milwaukee tool still works (!), the PC trim circular saw still works(!), and I have a Milwaukee circular saw I bought new about 35 years ago that still works. They have seen a few lifetimes of work and still perform, so they were worth double, triple and even four times the price of the competing products.

But what about Festool? How are they positioning themselves in the market? They are too expensive to take to a job site as they would surely sprout legs and be gone in a day on some sites. When considering all the rigors, hard duty, misuse, accidents, and all the other site conditions that exist on a daily basis, no contractors or subcontractors I know use Festool products. Not even in their personal shops. Not a drill, not even a drill bit. So the folks I know that would get the most use out of them don't buy. With other contractors from other areas and even states, that is the case.

So I wonder, who is buying these tools? Is it the guy that likes driving a Maserati when a Ford will do? Is it the serious collector? And I would have to ask, does anyone know (even by internet acquaintance) besides Leon that use Festool products professionally, or even as a serious hobbyist that turns out a few projects a year?

I get pleasure from using really nice tools myself, but there has to be consideration for the quality/utility equation. The Domino machine, I truly get. There is no competitor, no machine on the market that does what it does. Kind of like when Lamello had the market on biscuit machines. But with it poised to most likely be over a $1000 now (and don't forget tax) who will be buying it? Beats me.

Anyway, for those that are thinking of buying, at least they have extended the courtesy of letting folks know there is a price boost coming.


Tom Silva uses them on the job site but I kind of doubt he bought them
himself.

--
Froz....

On 3/7/2017 12:04 PM, wrote:
Hmmm.... I wonder how much the market can stand.

I saw on the Festool website that they are going to raise prices once
again. Obviously they are selling a lot of tools or they wouldn't be
raising prices. Their quality is without doubt, as well is their
engineering.

But I do have to think somewhere in the mix folks will say "enough".
I truly believe that for someone like Leon that uses his Festool
machines the way he does they are worth the price. Some of their
tools aren't /that/ bad in their pricing, but they have long been out
of range for the casual or part time woodworker that is trying to
build a shop and needs a lot of basic tools.

FWIW It is hyped as a price increase by retailers, buy NOW before the
increase. I have noticed, in past years, that is comes up as a "price
change". I have seen items actually go down in price as well as not
change at all. That is not to say that there will not be a price
increase on some items. And IIRC they do this every year at about this
time. I also recall a published list of the product line before and
after price change.


As a full time professional I have always spent a lot of money on
tools if I thought they were worth it. Back in the mid 70s, I spent
$95 on a Milwaukee corded drill when I could buy Porter Cable (when
it was quality!), Disston, Stanley commercial, and a couple of other
professional brands for $50 to $65. Similarly, I bought my Milwaukee
circular saw, and my Porter Cable trim carpenter's circular saw. At
a couple of bucks an hour, it took me a while to be able to afford
them. But since I literally made a living with those tools and
relied on them to perform everyday, I was encouraged (instructed?) to
purchase tools that would perform reliably and last on the job site.
OK, I got that. That first Milwaukee tool still works (!), the PC
trim circular saw still works(!), and I have a Milwaukee circular saw
I bought new about 35 years ago that still works. They have seen a
few lifetimes of work and still perform, so they were worth double,
triple and even four times the price of the competing products.

I can see how it would be tough, in a mixed company setting, to bring a
load of Festools to a job site and leave with what yu brought. Swingman
and I have worked in mixed company with out Festools but we knew the
people that were working beside. We did not leave them out when we
broke for lunch.
I use to buy PC sanders and actually wore a few out after being repaired
multiple times. The OP SpeedBloc comes to mind. A pronominal finish
sander, that would raise a cloud of dust. AND that sander got replaced
by a Festool for one reason only, to subtract the dust out of the
equation. I already had the FT Dust Extractor, which is kind to your
ears and works extremely well.

Moving on, I think if contractors realized that they did not have to
mask off a room. to control dust, Festool might look better. And the
track saw eliminates the need for an onsite table saw.

I recall refacing kitchen cabinets with 1/8" maple veneer and replacing
the doors and drawers about 9 years ago. The customer/neighbor/good
friend masked off all of the cabinet openings the evening after I
applied the veneers to the front of the cabinets. Every thing that was
in the cabinets was left in the cabinets.
I returned the next morning to sand all of the surfaces. He left to
take a nap, about 20 feet away, while I sanded the cabinets. I was
using the dust extractor vac and my Rotex and finish sander. I had to
wake him up and he was shocked to find little to no dust on the counter
tops and floor.

In the old days I learned to look for a layer of dust before feeling the
condition of the sanded surface. Now I have to feel with out a visual
indicator.



But what about Festool? How are they positioning themselves in the
market? They are too expensive to take to a job site as they would
surely sprout legs and be gone in a day on some sites. When
considering all the rigors, hard duty, misuse, accidents, and all the
other site conditions that exist on a daily basis, no contractors or
subcontractors I know use Festool products. Not even in their
personal shops. Not a drill, not even a drill bit. So the folks I
know that would get the most use out of them don't buy. With other
contractors from other areas and even states, that is the case.

So I wonder, who is buying these tools? Is it the guy that likes
driving a Maserati when a Ford will do?

YES!

Is it the serious collector?

YES!

And I would have to ask, does anyone know (even by internet
acquaintance) besides Leon that use Festool products professionally,
or even as a serious hobbyist that turns out a few projects a year?

I get pleasure from using really nice tools myself, but there has to
be consideration for the quality/utility equation. The Domino
machine, I truly get. There is no competitor, no machine on the
market that does what it does. Kind of like when Lamello had the
market on biscuit machines. But with it poised to most likely be
over a $1000 now (and don't forget tax) who will be buying it? Beats
me.

Anyway, for those that are thinking of buying, at least they have
extended the courtesy of letting folks know there is a price boost
coming.

Robert

On 3/7/2017 12:04 PM, wrote:
Snip


I get pleasure from using really nice tools myself, but there has to
be consideration for the quality/utility equation. The Domino
machine, I truly get. There is no competitor, no machine on the
market that does what it does.

This is new to me.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=P...=zm VXbP21NHk

In action.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5i0...vV3qkgVs1YzH2f

On 03/07/2017 12:04 PM, wrote:
....

...I would have to ask, does anyone know (even by internet acquaintance)
besides Leon that use Festool products professionally, or even as a
serious hobbyist that turns out a few projects a year?
....

Personally know, no; I've never even seen an actual Festool product in
the wild; there's no dealer within 200 mi...

I did notice in the new Fine Homebuilding issue a cover story in which
the builder is using the tracksaw and some other green appears in his
shop...he is, however, Editor of the mag so one wonders as with Tom
Silva if they were actually purchased retail or are part of advertising
budget from Festool or left from evaluation product from earlier
acquisition by Taunton...

--

On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 12:57:54 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

Please note that my comments were about the market, the marketplace, and potential clientele than anything else. Certainly, the quality of their tools speak for itself. But I do stand by what I said, you Leon, and Swing too are the only Festool users I know in a commercial environment. I was blown away by the smooth, splinter free cuts from Swingman's track saw when he was breaking down sheet goods to make cabinets. We both agreed that the cuts themselves were easily cabinet grade, ready to go.

This is new to me.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=P...=zm VXbP21NHk

In action.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5i0...vV3qkgVs1YzH2f

Two things come to mind. First, for Festool, the connectors are surprisingly affordable for the quality and sturdiness of the connections.

Second, you can only use the big boy Domino to carve the appropriate mortise. So... another $1400 plus tax? Yikes!!

Robert

On 3/7/2017 2:35 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 12:57:54 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

Please note that my comments were about the market, the marketplace,
and potential clientele than anything else. Certainly, the quality
of their tools speak for itself. But I do stand by what I said, you
Leon, and Swing too are the only Festool users I know in a commercial
environment. I was blown away by the smooth, splinter free cuts from
Swingman's track saw when he was breaking down sheet goods to make
cabinets. We both agreed that the cuts themselves were easily
cabinet grade, ready to go.

Understood, I was just commenting on what value I see and what might be
a value to a full time contractor. ;~)




This is new to me.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=P...=zm VXbP21NHk



In action.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5i0...vV3qkgVs1YzH2f


Two things come to mind. First, for Festool, the connectors are
surprisingly affordable for the quality and sturdiness of the
connections.

Second, you can only use the big boy Domino to carve the appropriate
mortise. So... another $1400 plus tax? Yikes!!

Yu-huh... Ok, if you already have the big'n.



Robert

On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 15:41:29 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 3/7/2017 2:35 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 12:57:54 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

Please note that my comments were about the market, the marketplace,
and potential clientele than anything else. Certainly, the quality
of their tools speak for itself. But I do stand by what I said, you
Leon, and Swing too are the only Festool users I know in a commercial
environment. I was blown away by the smooth, splinter free cuts from
Swingman's track saw when he was breaking down sheet goods to make
cabinets. We both agreed that the cuts themselves were easily
cabinet grade, ready to go.

Understood, I was just commenting on what value I see and what might be
a value to a full time contractor. ;~)


It would be real useful for setup in the shop, verifying the fitting,
disassembly shipping or transporting to the end user. No big pieces to
have to work through a tight spot?

There is also a video on how to link two Formica countertops together,
or any other wide boards together with a different style connector.
One also that is setup to link thick mdf boards without splitting
them.

I could see a lot of possibilities. Like making bunk beds and shipping
them to grand kids, and so on.





This is new to me.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=P...=zm VXbP21NHk



In action.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5i0...vV3qkgVs1YzH2f


Two things come to mind. First, for Festool, the connectors are
surprisingly affordable for the quality and sturdiness of the
connections.

Second, you can only use the big boy Domino to carve the appropriate
mortise. So... another $1400 plus tax? Yikes!!

Yu-huh... Ok, if you already have the big'n.



Robert

I did see a Festool track in the wild. A friend was having kitchen cabinets installed and a new wood floor. When I stopped by the site it was almost all done and there was a Festool track on the counter. So I get the impression that some pros use them on the job. But on the site I saw the job was small and done by just a few pros who work together, inside a house. No open outside situation with many unknown people on site.

I agree with what you wrote. Festool is more or less a professional inside the shop tool. Or pros might use it onsite indoors if they are the only person or small team working on the job. Or for the hobbyist who wants to spend as much money as possible. Either for quality or to justify their hobby.

Agree about the Domino. It does something essential, make joints, and is the only tool able to do this. There really isn't any competition. Every spring Festool has price increases/changes.

On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 10:04:14 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

Hmmm.... I wonder how much the market can stand.

I saw on the Festool website that they are going to raise prices once again. Obviously they are selling a lot of tools or they wouldn't be raising prices. Their quality is without doubt, as well is their engineering.

But I do have to think somewhere in the mix folks will say "enough". I truly believe that for someone like Leon that uses his Festool machines the way he does they are worth the price. Some of their tools aren't /that/ bad in their pricing, but they have long been out of range for the casual or part time woodworker that is trying to build a shop and needs a lot of basic tools.

Most of the increases are less that 5%. Most a lot less. While I
don't like higher prices any more than anyone else, 5% isn't horrible.

As a full time professional I have always spent a lot of money on tools if I thought they were worth it. Back in the mid 70s, I spent $95 on a Milwaukee corded drill when I could buy Porter Cable (when it was quality!), Disston, Stanley commercial, and a couple of other professional brands for $50 to $65. Similarly, I bought my Milwaukee circular saw, and my Porter Cable trim carpenter's circular saw. At a couple of bucks an hour, it took me a while to be able to afford them. But since I literally made a living with those tools and relied on them to perform everyday, I was encouraged (instructed?) to purchase tools that would perform reliably and last on the job site. OK, I got that. That first Milwaukee tool still works (!), the PC trim circular saw still works(!), and I have a Milwaukee circular saw I bought new about 35 years ago that still works. They have seen a few lifetimes of work and still perform, so they were worth double, triple and even four times the price of the
competing products.

But what about Festool? How are they positioning themselves in the market? They are too expensive to take to a job site as they would surely sprout legs and be gone in a day on some sites. When considering all the rigors, hard duty, misuse, accidents, and all the other site conditions that exist on a daily basis, no contractors or subcontractors I know use Festool products. Not even in their personal shops. Not a drill, not even a drill bit. So the folks I know that would get the most use out of them don't buy. With other contractors from other areas and even states, that is the case.

Isn't that the whole reason behind the Systainer and the MFT? ...to
make the system portable?

So I wonder, who is buying these tools? Is it the guy that likes driving a Maserati when a Ford will do? Is it the serious collector? And I would have to ask, does anyone know (even by internet acquaintance) besides Leon that use Festool products professionally, or even as a serious hobbyist that turns out a few projects a year?

I get pleasure from using really nice tools myself, but there has to be consideration for the quality/utility equation. The Domino machine, I truly get. There is no competitor, no machine on the market that does what it does. Kind of like when Lamello had the market on biscuit machines. But with it poised to most likely be over a $1000 now (and don't forget tax) who will be buying it? Beats me.

Anyway, for those that are thinking of buying, at least they have extended the courtesy of letting folks know there is a price boost coming.

Robert

Hey Nailshooter and others,
I have seen a few contractors using Festool at my place of business (large research hospital with lots of "fancy" wood walls and plaques, etc) plus a few on the streets. However most of the contractors who come into the labs are using Dewalt, Makita, Milwaukee, etc. I'd say it's about 40 to 1 ratio.
Of the few professional cabinet and furniture makers I know five of them use Festools for all of their sanding work and all of them have track saws and a few Dominos
On the other hand I probably own and use more Festools than Leon and Swingman, been using them for more than 10 years. My house is paid for, we have no children, I have a nice paying job and my wife has a tidy monthly retirement pension. I have used my Festools at home refinishing and remodeling the house and building furniture and "helping" friends get jobs done that I think would have been a bit more difficult -FOR ME TO DO - using other brand tools. (Your results may have been better) I think if I was a professional builder I would have spent my money on Festools because I like how they work and I like how I work with them.
Each time I bought a new Festool I thought it was expensive but once used I felt it was money well spent. I have also been fortunate to have sold a few pieces of furniture that were made partially and finished predominantly with Festools. I'm happy I got them, that said, I'm going to sleep now.
Marc

On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 10:01:36 PM UTC-6, marc rosen wrote:

Hey Marc... long time no see! Hope to see you around more. Leon and I have spoken about trying to keep the group going here, and being a little more active. Now if we could only get some of the other old hands back (Swing, Marlow, and a few others...)

Of the few professional cabinet and furniture makers I know five of them use Festools for all of their sanding work and all of them have track saws and a few Dominos

The Domino and the big track saw are the only two Festools I am really trying to figure out how to justify. So far, no luck. I went through my tools at the first of the year to determine the remaining life span, the cost to repair, the capability/reliability of the group. In hand tools and consumables I am around 2K for the year. I won't have to have this much expenditure for another few years, but then I am not finished yet, either. Even buying carefully chews up the cash fast.

Each time I bought a new Festool I thought it was expensive but once used I felt it was money well spent. I have also been fortunate to have sold a few pieces of furniture that were made partially and finished predominantly with Festools. I'm happy I got them, that said, I'm going to sleep now.


There is indeed a certain joy from using a well made, accurate tool. There is satisfaction out of owning a really nice tool, too. And it is nice to know that they will be around doing as they were designed to do for as long as you want.

I have two circular saws and a 3 amp Milwaukee Sawzall (could be mistaken for a sewing machine) that are in my "hall of fame". They are all over 40 years old, were all on the job for at least 25 years, used nearly daily when I was still wearing nail bags all day long. They are all old school build with cut gears, heavy duty motors, heavy duty triggers with exceptional duty cycles, polished aluminum cases, and the name, model and serial number riveted to the tools. They made my living and then some, worked better than their competitors and were the envy of the job site. I coveted and cherished those tools like Leon does his Festools, maybe like you do yours. I remember that feeling fondly, although I haven't had it in years.

Robert

wrote:
On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 10:01:36 PM UTC-6, marc rosen wrote:



I have two circular saws and a 3 amp Milwaukee Sawzall (could be mistaken
for a sewing machine) that are in my "hall of fame". They are all over
40 years old, were all on the job for at least 25 years, used nearly
daily when I was still wearing nail bags all day long. They are all old
school build with cut gears, heavy duty motors, heavy duty triggers with
exceptional duty cycles, polished aluminum cases, and the name, model and
serial number riveted to the tools. They made my living and then some,
worked better than their competitors and were the envy of the job site.
I coveted and cherished those tools like Leon does his Festools, maybe
like you do yours. I remember that feeling fondly, although I haven't had it in years.

Robert



I have a machine that I can't seem to wear out. I don't use it daily but
weekly 6 months out of the year and 3 times already this year. I bought it
in April-May 1987 and paid $450.00 for it. I hoped it would last at least
10-15 years when I bought it. It's a Honda lawn mower that I bought
about 3 months before Bryan was born. :-). A lot of sentimental value
makes me hang on to it. The lower part of the handle bar is rusted where
Bryan would hang on to as we mowed the yard. He was about 3 and always had
sweaty little hands. :-)

On Wednesday, March 8, 2017 at 8:03:09 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

I have a machine that I can't seem to wear out. I don't use it daily but
weekly 6 months out of the year and 3 times already this year. I bought it
in April-May 1987 and paid $450.00 for it. I hoped it would last at least
10-15 years when I bought it. It's a Honda lawn mower that I bought
about 3 months before Bryan was born. :-). A lot of sentimental value
makes me hang on to it. The lower part of the handle bar is rusted where
Bryan would hang on to as we mowed the yard. He was about 3 and always had
sweaty little hands. :-)

Definitely a Leon Hall of Fame tool!

Robert

Weighing in on Festool price and value: I only own one Festool -- the older Domino which I bought used for about $300. I couldn't justify buying new as I am just a hobbyist and make more sawdust than anything else. I connect it to my cheapo shop vac using the $75 Festool hose (not included with the purchase). That's a lot of $$$ for a flippin' hose. In any event, I use that Domino about 4 or 5 times a year and it is a magnificent tool.

Larry

On Wednesday, March 8, 2017 at 9:13:46 AM UTC-6, wrote:
On Wednesday, March 8, 2017 at 8:03:09 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

I have a machine that I can't seem to wear out. I don't use it daily but
weekly 6 months out of the year and 3 times already this year. I bought it
in April-May 1987 and paid $450.00 for it. I hoped it would last at least
10-15 years when I bought it. It's a Honda lawn mower that I bought
about 3 months before Bryan was born. :-). A lot of sentimental value
makes me hang on to it. The lower part of the handle bar is rusted where
Bryan would hang on to as we mowed the yard. He was about 3 and always had
sweaty little hands. :-)

Definitely a Leon Hall of Fame tool!

Robert