I sold the garage storage cabinet jobs. A few days back I mention this
and inquired about soft close hinges and such.

Originally my bid was to use paint quality birch plywood for the bodies
of the cabinets and MDF for the doors. That has changed. The customer
opted for the more expensive frame and panel doors and MDO for the body
of the cabinets.

I have never used MDO but felt that this wes the best option for my
customer AND me since I will not be painting, he will do this. I
certainly did not want to address any veneer on the surface of the
plywood in the event the customer used a water based product. The doors
will be 1/4" birch plywood panels, not that big of a deal if there is a
problem with one and I have to rebuild it. At least not as big as
replacing a cabinet.

Anyway the MDO was $64.95 per sheet. Inspecting it before buying it
looked fine for this purpose, smooth enough for garage cabinets, and
absolutely smoother than birch plywood if it bubbled up.
I was surprised that the MDO has a distinct "plastic laminate" odor. So
now I know how this stuff is resistant to water.

One rack lower was ProBond plywood. It looked similar to the MDO
however the owner explained that the MDO has a paper resin surface that
is water resistant as opposed to ProBond. IMHO the ProBond appeared to
be a superior product as the outer veneer layer was 3 times thicker than
the outer layer of the MDO. BUT that outer layer is MDF so that pretty
much defeats the idea of having a water resistant surface. FWIW the MDO
outer veneer surface is twice as thick as the birch veneer surface and
is an actual 97/128" thick and or 1/128" thicker than 3/4" thick. I
suppose if the wood veneers were as thick, today's plywoods would be
3/4" thick to, come to think about it on numerous occasions the import
plywoods are closer to 3/4" if not exactly 3/4" than domestic plywoods.
It's a crap shoot as to what you will get so I always plan for this
and don't cut anything until I know what thickness I will end up with.

Strange enough the Probond was less expensively priced by $20 per sheet.
More food for thought in the future if I build and paint myself.

Anyway..... this should be a quick job, no painting or finishing, so
there will be no delay between stages waiting for stain, varnish, or
paint to dry.

About ten years ago DixiePly (for our northern friends, they are a manufacturer and distributor of sheet goods) had a big open house for contractors, cabinet makers, and anyone else that was interested in sheet goods when they opened a new warehouse.

I spent many hours drinking iced tea and talking with different reps about this stuff:

https://goo.gl/0FBPHn

I saw a LOT of things there that I have never seen or heard of since. I don't know how much of those products are available, how many are affordable, or how many of them are in actual use.

I have always been surprised how little the building industry takes advantage of the engineered sheet goods that are available. When I was there at the open house, I saw 3/4" plywood that had an aluminum layer in the middle, one that was made to be cut with a regular carbide blade. I saw 1/2" sheet goods that were made to be structurally sound for engineered applications such as framing backer needed when framing to hang equipment, etc.

I saw all kinds of laminations... mind blowing stuff that I thought was going to change our industry. They showed me a 3/4" chipboard (not an OSB) that was going to be used in heavy roof installation such as on concrete tiles that allowed the rafters to be on 24" centers, so as a structural component.

On 3/12/2016 2:36 AM, wrote:
Where did all that stuff go? Sometimes when you and Karl post about the availability of products in your area I feel like I am in a third world country down here. I have never seen (sometimes never heard) of the stuff you guys come up with, and it is frustrating.

What is actually more frustrating is to buy it, use it, like it, then
find out no one carries it anymore.

IOW, we, more often than not, feel your pain in that regard ...

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 03/12/2016 2:36 AM, wrote:
About ten years ago DixiePly (for our northern friends, they are a
manufacturer and distributor of sheet goods) had a big open house for
contractors, cabinet makers, and anyone else that was interested in
sheet goods when they opened a new warehouse.
....

I saw a LOT of things there that I have never seen or heard of
since. ...

I have always been surprised how little the building industry takes
advantage of the engineered sheet goods that are available. When I was
there at the open house, I saw 3/4" plywood that had an aluminum layer
in the middle, one that was made to be cut with a regular carbide blade.
I saw 1/2" sheet goods that were made to be structurally sound for
engineered applications such as framing backer needed when framing to
hang equipment, etc.
....

Where did all that stuff go? Sometimes when you and Karl post about
the availability of products in your area I feel like I am in a third
world country down here. I have never seen (sometimes never heard) of
the stuff you guys come up with, and it is frustrating. I really like
the idea of that sheet goods MDF you guys were talking about a while
back as it would be PERFECT for my repairs on roofs. No one around here
has heard of it, certainly not my contracting cohorts.
....
I am disappointed that we don't have more advanced products here
that I could take fine advantage of in my area of
construction/repair. I will be interested to hear your thoughts on
today's version of the MDO you bought.
....

And, if you're in the desert there, think of those of us in
population-starved areas!!!

I expect it's more to do with simply there being no concerted way to
introduce new products into the market combined with perceived cost as
opposed to benefit for the residential builder. I'd expect there's more
inroads in commercial building what with more architectural inputs and
larger budgets but little of the market for them gets reflected in the
general-purpose building products inventory at the retail outlets so
never seen...

Just a hypothesis, no real knowledge. Also wonder if building codes
don't cause some to not risk new materials simply because they know what
is accepted currently so why "rock the boat"?

On the "nobody here has heard of it", what if you went to the (one and
only) local lumberyard and asked if had any fir and they gave you the
blank stare???? (True story here, sadly)

--

On Saturday, March 12, 2016 at 1:03:31 PM UTC-6, dpb wrote:

And, if you're in the desert there, think of those of us in
population-starved areas!!!

I can only imagine. I run into contractors at my vendors all the time that are driving 30, 40 or more miles one way to get products. "Specialized" products, even longer trips. Most of the old fashioned lumberyards around here are long gone or have become hardwood and residential hardware dealers.

I'd expect there's more
inroads in commercial building what with more architectural inputs and
larger budgets but little of the market for them gets reflected in the
general-purpose building products inventory at the retail outlets so
never seen...

An astute observation. I used to do mostly commercial, and we could only get certain products that were being held in warehouse by large contractors that were using a product only because it was specified for a certain application. When the job was over, the yard would sell all it had and no reorder, ever.

Just a hypothesis, no real knowledge. Also wonder if building codes
don't cause some to not risk new materials simply because they know what
is accepted currently so why "rock the boat"?

Local building codes here are interpreted so widely by our inspectors I am sure that is a factor.

On the "nobody here has heard of it", what if you went to the (one and
only) local lumberyard and asked if had any fir and they gave you the
blank stare???? (True story here, sadly)

I would feel like I am in Home Depot or Lowes! Happens all the time here as their work force gets younger and younger, combined with a lack of training on the employer's part, and a lack of interest on the part of the employee. Our local HD guys now use their own app in the store to locate certain items that they don't know about or have a clue where they are located, just like I do when I am trying to make sure they have what I want before I get in the truck to go get it.

Those two stores are becoming more and more a group of checkout stand operators and stockers, nothing else.

Robert

In article ,
says...

On Saturday, March 12, 2016 at 1:03:31 PM UTC-6, dpb wrote:

And, if you're in the desert there, think of those of us in
population-starved areas!!!

I can only imagine. I run into contractors at my vendors all the time that are driving 30, 40 or more miles one way to get products. "Specialized" products, even longer trips. Most of the old fashioned lumberyards around here are long gone or have become hardwood and residential hardware dealers.

I'd expect there's more
inroads in commercial building what with more architectural inputs and
larger budgets but little of the market for them gets reflected in the
general-purpose building products inventory at the retail outlets so
never seen...

An astute observation. I used to do mostly commercial, and we could only get certain products that were being held in warehouse by large contractors that were using a product only because it was specified for a certain application. When the job was over, the yard would sell all it had and no reorder, ever.

Just a hypothesis, no real knowledge. Also wonder if building codes
don't cause some to not risk new materials simply because they know what
is accepted currently so why "rock the boat"?

Local building codes here are interpreted so widely by our inspectors I am sure that is a factor.

On the "nobody here has heard of it", what if you went to the (one and
only) local lumberyard and asked if had any fir and they gave you the
blank stare???? (True story here, sadly)

I would feel like I am in Home Depot or Lowes! Happens all the time here as their work force gets younger and younger, combined with a lack of training on the employer's part, and a lack of interest on the part of the employee. Our local HD guys now use their own app in the store to locate certain items that they don't know about or have a clue where they are located, just like I do when I am trying to make sure they have what I want before I get in the truck to go
get it.

Those two stores are becoming more and more a group of checkout stand operators and stockers, nothing else.

One time I walked into Lowes looking for something or other that
according to the web site was in stock. Nobody had a clue where it was.
Finally after an hour of watching them run around, I pulled out my
phone, went to their web site, and ordered it for pickup. About five
minutes later I had it in hand.

On 3/12/2016 2:36 AM, wrote:

Snip

I am disappointed that we don't have more advanced products here that
I could take fine advantage of in my area of construction/repair. I
will be interested to hear your thoughts on today's version of the
MDO you bought.

Robert




So I spent yesterday afternoon cutting up the 4 sheets of MDO.

So far so good. What I have noticed is that the surface is pretty hard
but thin, after all it is a lot like plastic laminate. It seems to
slide around on the TS surface very easily. It has 7 wood plies and the
two resin/paper outer veneers. Thickness seems to be consistent and
the sheets are FLAT. I suppose that has a lot to do with water proof
outer veneers, no humidity absorption problems. Additionally the MDO
does not appear to be any heavier, or lighter, than traditional cabinet
quality plywood.

The product cuts like butter and the edges remain Crisp! I use Forrest
blades, in particular the WWII, for ALL of my cuts. Typically when I
am cutting plywood sheets and because they typically are not perfectly
flat I will make a shallow scoring cut and then a full final cut when
cutting cross grain. Two pluses here, there is no cross grain so there
was no need for any scoring cuts. Additionally because there is no
grain there is no problem with cutting parts and having to deal with
grain direction. ;~)

Amy way here is a shot of the product and its ID stamp. Notice that
even the factory edge looks pretty nice.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112.../in/datetaken/

Once I have cut the poplar face frame pieces I will begin cutting
grooves in the bottom and top rails at the same time as cutting dado's
in the MDO side panels to insure perfect alignment for the and top panels.

Leon wrote:
I sold the garage storage cabinet jobs. A few days back I mention this
and inquired about soft close hinges and such.

Originally my bid was to use paint quality birch plywood for the bodies
of the cabinets and MDF for the doors. That has changed. The customer
opted for the more expensive frame and panel doors and MDO for the body
of the cabinets.

I have never used MDO but felt that this wes the best option for my
customer AND me since I will not be painting, he will do this. I
certainly did not want to address any veneer on the surface of the
plywood in the event the customer used a water based product. The doors
will be 1/4" birch plywood panels, not that big of a deal if there is a
problem with one and I have to rebuild it. At least not as big as
replacing a cabinet.

Anyway the MDO was $64.95 per sheet. Inspecting it before buying it
looked fine for this purpose, smooth enough for garage cabinets, and
absolutely smoother than birch plywood if it bubbled up.
I was surprised that the MDO has a distinct "plastic laminate" odor. So
now I know how this stuff is resistant to water.

One rack lower was ProBond plywood. It looked similar to the MDO
however the owner explained that the MDO has a paper resin surface that
is water resistant as opposed to ProBond. IMHO the ProBond appeared to
be a superior product as the outer veneer layer was 3 times thicker than
the outer layer of the MDO. BUT that outer layer is MDF so that pretty
much defeats the idea of having a water resistant surface. FWIW the MDO
outer veneer surface is twice as thick as the birch veneer surface and
is an actual 97/128" thick and or 1/128" thicker than 3/4" thick. I
suppose if the wood veneers were as thick, today's plywoods would be
3/4" thick to, come to think about it on numerous occasions the import
plywoods are closer to 3/4" if not exactly 3/4" than domestic plywoods.
It's a crap shoot as to what you will get so I always plan for this
and don't cut anything until I know what thickness I will end up with.

Strange enough the Probond was less expensively priced by $20 per sheet.
More food for thought in the future if I build and paint myself.

Anyway..... this should be a quick job, no painting or finishing, so
there will be no delay between stages waiting for stain, varnish, or
paint to dry.


There's a good use of your new Thermowood Cut-Ready machine. You can
start on them at 4 pm and deliver the cabinets before supper. I
forgot--does it have dust collection? Sounds like it will need it.

--
GW Ross

Between two evils, always pick the one
you never tried before.

On 3/11/2016 7:10 PM, Leon wrote:

Strange enough the Probond was less expensively priced by $20 per sheet.
More food for thought in the future if I build and paint myself.

Hmmm ... never heard of "ProBond" in anything but aluminum?

Colombia Forest Product's "PureBond" plywood, is supposedly more water
resistant, and is pushed hard for "green" projects due to the lower CH2O
content in the glue ... Home Depot sells a lot of it.

Where was this?

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 3/12/2016 12:43 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 3/11/2016 7:10 PM, Leon wrote:

Strange enough the Probond was less expensively priced by $20 per sheet.
More food for thought in the future if I build and paint myself.

Hmmm ... never heard of "ProBond" in anything but aluminum?

Colombia Forest Product's "PureBond" plywood, is supposedly more water
resistant, and is pushed hard for "green" projects due to the lower CH2O
content in the glue ... Home Depot sells a lot of it.

Where was this?



OOPS according to my helper that was ProCore not ProBond, I might have
been thinking the ProBond Elmers glue.

On 03/11/2016 7:10 PM, Leon wrote:
I sold the garage storage cabinet jobs. A few days back I mention this
and inquired about soft close hinges and such.
....

So which way did the decision on the tall door go??? (inquiring minds
and all that... )

If you've not used it previously, you may find the following of
interest, Leon...

www.pacificwoodlaminates.com/img/PDFs/PlywoodGuide.pdf

--

On 3/12/2016 12:53 PM, dpb wrote:
On 03/11/2016 7:10 PM, Leon wrote:
I sold the garage storage cabinet jobs. A few days back I mention this
and inquired about soft close hinges and such.
...

So which way did the decision on the tall door go??? (inquiring minds
and all that... )

Shorter, actually two doors. 55" on bottom and 32" on top.



If you've not used it previously, you may find the following of
interest, Leon...

www.pacificwoodlaminates.com/img/PDFs/PlywoodGuide.pdf

--

Thanks for that link!

On 03/12/2016 5:55 PM, Leon wrote:
On 3/12/2016 12:53 PM, dpb wrote:
On 03/11/2016 7:10 PM, Leon wrote:
I sold the garage storage cabinet jobs. A few days back I mention this
and inquired about soft close hinges and such.
...

So which way did the decision on the tall door go??? (inquiring minds
and all that... )

Shorter, actually two doors. 55" on bottom and 32" on top.

I'm sure that'll turn out more satisfactory by far...


If you've not used it previously, you may find the following of
interest, Leon...

www.pacificwoodlaminates.com/img/PDFs/PlywoodGuide.pdf

Thanks for that link!

We did some with it for some signs w/ a local scout as part of an Eagle
project he took on...it works very nicely; we'll see how long they hold
up as has only been a year (or is it two now?), but not enough to know
for long term...but inside a garage it'll be good...

Speaking on the other thread of availability, the kid went to Wichita to
get it, though...

--

an actual 97/128" thick and or 1/128" thicker than 3/4" thick.

I'm English and 73 years old, I don't like the metric system, but I have never known of anyone who works in 128ths of an inch before!

On 3/12/2016 2:08 PM, wrote:
an actual 97/128" thick and or 1/128" thicker than 3/4" thick.

I'm English and 73 years old, I don't like the metric system, but I
have never known of anyone who works in 128ths of an inch before!


If you carefully measure sheet goods you might find 256ths of an inch.
FWIW I do use a digital caliper for measuring certain products. ;~)

I am pretty anal about precision and the varying thicknesses of sheet
goods play into dado's and groves that all come together on x,y,z planes.

Leon wrote:
On 3/12/2016 2:08 PM, wrote:
an actual 97/128" thick and or 1/128" thicker than 3/4" thick.

I'm English and 73 years old, I don't like the metric system, but I
have never known of anyone who works in 128ths of an inch before!


If you carefully measure sheet goods you might find 256ths of an inch.
FWIW I do use a digital caliper for measuring certain products. ;~)

I am pretty anal about precision and the varying thicknesses of sheet
goods play into dado's and groves that all come together on x,y,z planes.

Oh come on Leon - regardless of our individual OCD, 1/256th of an inch
or 1/124th of an inch is just not even reliably measurable, let alone
achievable. Even if it were, those infinitesimal differences would not
matter one bit in woodworking. What would they matter - oh geeze, this
is a nice fit or this is a little nicer fit?

Or... did I completely miss your point?


--
-Mike-

Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 3/12/2016 2:08 PM, wrote:
an actual 97/128" thick and or 1/128" thicker than 3/4" thick.

I'm English and 73 years old, I don't like the metric system, but I
have never known of anyone who works in 128ths of an inch before!


If you carefully measure sheet goods you might find 256ths of an inch.
FWIW I do use a digital caliper for measuring certain products. ;~)

I am pretty anal about precision and the varying thicknesses of sheet
goods play into dado's and groves that all come together on x,y,z
planes.

Oh come on Leon - regardless of our individual OCD, 1/256th of an inch
or 1/124th of an inch is just not even reliably measurable, let alone
achievable.


Come on, Mike. It's 1/128th of an inch, not 1/124th. Do you build dog
houses? ; )

Even if it were, those infinitesimal differences would not matter one
bit in woodworking. What would they matter - oh geeze, this is a nice
fit or this is a little nicer fit?

Or... did I completely miss your point?

On 3/12/2016 6:12 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 3/12/2016 2:08 PM, wrote:
an actual 97/128" thick and or 1/128" thicker than 3/4" thick.

I'm English and 73 years old, I don't like the metric system, but I
have never known of anyone who works in 128ths of an inch before!


If you carefully measure sheet goods you might find 256ths of an inch.
FWIW I do use a digital caliper for measuring certain products. ;~)

I am pretty anal about precision and the varying thicknesses of sheet
goods play into dado's and groves that all come together on x,y,z planes.

Oh come on Leon - regardless of our individual OCD, 1/256th of an inch
or 1/124th of an inch is just not even reliably measurable, let alone
achievable. Even if it were, those infinitesimal differences would not
matter one bit in woodworking. What would they matter - oh geeze, this
is a nice fit or this is a little nicer fit?

Or... did I completely miss your point?



You probably missed my point.

But having said that if you don't plan to deal with odd sized panels and
you are dealing with multiple panels in various locations errors
multiply. It is more a process of planing so that odd sizes do not
become a problem. It would be soooo nice if plywood was actually as
thick as what it is called.

No, I do not work with the assumption that I need to build to those
128ths of an inch and pretty much not even in 64ths but, 32nds of an
inch are very common and some times you have to split that amount. IIRC
the drawer slides I use have a tolerance of the drawers being within
-1/32" but not +. AND if you are going to have a center panel in a
cabinet between stacks of drawers you have to be pretty darn precise.

That center panel sits in a dado in the bottom panel and then it is
seldom when a 3/4" thick center panel is actually 3/4" thick. So you
are getting into 64ths of an inch so that that dado is "centered".
Then you have a center stile on the front face frame with a grove to
receive that center panel and that grove and the bottom panel dado have
to be precisely aligned. Then you have the back face frame center style
with its centered groove to receive the center panel. The dado in the
bottom panel, the grove in the back face frame center stile, and the
grove in the front face frame stile must all align so that the center
vertical panel will fit into all dado's and groves. And if all is not
centered the drawers on both sides have to be lightly different sizes
because you have a "-1/32" of play to work with.

Now I used to dry fit assemble the panels of the cabinets and all their
dado's. And then I would glue up a back or front face frame and fit
that onto the cabinet panels to help align that center stile and then
add the clamps.

I have made so many face frames and cabinets this way that I no longer
dry fit. I cut all the dado's and groves and pretty much glue up the
face frames first, front and back and then glue the cabinet panels
together and glue the front and back face frames assemblies all at the
same time. Everything better be right. So yes, those tiny measurements
mean a lot to me.

Anyway, I hope you are coping with the house and all that has come along
with that.

Gotta go eat dinner!