interesting shot showing the fires during the life of the tree

http://media.eurekalert.org/multimed.../20963_web.jpg

On Tue, 5 Jan 2016 09:00:09 -0800, Electric Comet
wrote:


interesting shot showing the fires during the life of the tree

http://media.eurekalert.org/multimed.../20963_web.jpg

Did you know that tree rings do not show years, but show rainy
seasons?

On 1/5/2016 6:15 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Tue, 5 Jan 2016 09:00:09 -0800, Electric Comet
wrote:


interesting shot showing the fires during the life of the tree

http://media.eurekalert.org/multimed.../20963_web.jpg

Did you know that tree rings do not show years, but show rainy
seasons?



I always understood rings represent years, size of rings represent the
climate for that year. Do you have a reference by any chance?

On Tue, 5 Jan 2016 18:17:20 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 1/5/2016 6:15 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Tue, 5 Jan 2016 09:00:09 -0800, Electric Comet
wrote:


interesting shot showing the fires during the life of the tree

http://media.eurekalert.org/multimed.../20963_web.jpg

Did you know that tree rings do not show years, but show rainy
seasons?



I always understood rings represent years, size of rings represent the
climate for that year. Do you have a reference by any chance?

I'll have to look for it, The reason it stuck in my mind was that
those people looking for the ark could tell by lumber with the lack of
rings in it. Which some people would discount, but also a friend of
mine who was studying ice "rings" or layers that geologists used for
the age of ice discovered that it actually bore record of rain or
snowfall, which is why some rings were close and some wider in
patterns. I'll look it up tonight.

On 1/5/2016 8:15 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Tue, 5 Jan 2016 18:17:20 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 1/5/2016 6:15 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Tue, 5 Jan 2016 09:00:09 -0800, Electric Comet
wrote:


interesting shot showing the fires during the life of the tree

http://media.eurekalert.org/multimed.../20963_web.jpg

Did you know that tree rings do not show years, but show rainy
seasons?



I always understood rings represent years, size of rings represent the
climate for that year. Do you have a reference by any chance?

I'll have to look for it, The reason it stuck in my mind was that
those people looking for the ark could tell by lumber with the lack of
rings in it. Which some people would discount, but also a friend of
mine who was studying ice "rings" or layers that geologists used for
the age of ice discovered that it actually bore record of rain or
snowfall, which is why some rings were close and some wider in
patterns. I'll look it up tonight.



;~) Well the Arc, is a super natural object and all that goes with
that... ;~) But I would be interested in what you find.

On Tue, 5 Jan 2016 22:24:41 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 1/5/2016 8:15 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Tue, 5 Jan 2016 18:17:20 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 1/5/2016 6:15 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Tue, 5 Jan 2016 09:00:09 -0800, Electric Comet
wrote:


interesting shot showing the fires during the life of the tree

http://media.eurekalert.org/multimed.../20963_web.jpg

Did you know that tree rings do not show years, but show rainy
seasons?



I always understood rings represent years, size of rings represent the
climate for that year. Do you have a reference by any chance?

I'll have to look for it, The reason it stuck in my mind was that
those people looking for the ark could tell by lumber with the lack of
rings in it. Which some people would discount, but also a friend of
mine who was studying ice "rings" or layers that geologists used for
the age of ice discovered that it actually bore record of rain or
snowfall, which is why some rings were close and some wider in
patterns. I'll look it up tonight.



;~) Well the Arc, is a super natural object and all that goes with
that... ;~) But I would be interested in what you find.

As the story goes, before the flood there was no rain. No rainy
season, no rings, or very few?


Anyhow, here are a few page links, and basically the growth, or rainy
season and the end of it determines the rings. So in area's that have
a regular rainy season you will get a growth ring. In a severe drought
it can be difficult to tell if there is a growth ring or not. I have
included the areas of tropical forests to show that there can be
multiple growth rings per year, and that basically a tree is a tree is
a tree.

Here in the west I can remember seeing large trees with growth ring
anomalies shown in the local museums of national parks where
uncertainty prevailed in the reading of rings due to weather patterns.

Bottom line? Tree's don't have birthday's.


https://www.theforestacademy.com/tre.../#.VoyxRI9FyUk

Annual rings generally exist in trees where the climate halts growth
at some point during the year. In our country, winter causes this
shutdown. In other countries, it is the dry season. Growth begins
again in the spring or rainy season.

But what happens to trees growing in countries where there is no
alternation between growth and rest periods?

For example, a country where it rains all year long! Remember that all
trees grow by adding successive rings. So in such an area, the
beginning and end of the growth period may occur any time during the
year, depending on the local conditions.

Some trees in tropical forests, like the okoumé (Gaboon), manage to
create several dozen very thin rings in a year, and never the same
number from one year to the next. It is often difficult, even
impossible, to distinguish them with the naked eye. In such cases, it
is extremely hard to determine the age of the tree.



http://www.priweb.org/globalchange/c...cc/scc_01.html

Dendrochronology is the study of climate change as recorded by tree
growth rings. Each year, trees add a layer of growth between the
older wood and the bark. This layer, or ring as seen in cross
section, can be wide, recording a wet season, or narrow, recording a
dry growing season. Because the rings are basically recording a good
growing season or a bad growing season, they are indirectly recording
more than just moisture. They also document temperature and cloud
cover as they impact tree growth as well. This record of annual
summer information is very important when you consider that certain
types of trees grow slowly over hundreds and hundreds of years, and
therefore contain a record of as many years of climate and climate
change.

There are limitations to this research though. Trees in the
temperate zone only record the growing season, so the winter season,
no matter how dramatic, will not be seen in the ring record.
Interestingly, trees in tropical regions grow year round and therefore
show no real obvious annual growth rings. Therefore climate data from
equatorial areas is difficult to piece out and use. The record is
limited geographically in another way too. Trees do not grow in all
places on Earth, therefore we don’t have a tree ring record of climate
change for each region and ecologic niche globally. (No trees in
polar regions, high in the mountains, in the ocean!!!)

OFWW wrote in news

On Tue, 5 Jan 2016 18:17:20 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 1/5/2016 6:15 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Tue, 5 Jan 2016 09:00:09 -0800, Electric Comet
wrote:


interesting shot showing the fires during the life of the tree

http://media.eurekalert.org/multimed.../20963_web.jpg

Did you know that tree rings do not show years, but show rainy
seasons?



I always understood rings represent years, size of rings represent the
climate for that year. Do you have a reference by any chance?

I'll have to look for it, The reason it stuck in my mind was that
those people looking for the ark could tell by lumber with the lack of
rings in it.

Are ~those people~ the same ones who believe our square
planet is only 6000 years old and the baby Jesus put all
those dinosaur fossils here ~just to test our faith~ ?


--
Religion was invented when the first
con-man met the first fool. ~ Mark Twain

On Wed, 06 Jan 2016 06:39:11 -0800, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

OFWW wrote in news

On Tue, 5 Jan 2016 18:17:20 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 1/5/2016 6:15 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Tue, 5 Jan 2016 09:00:09 -0800, Electric Comet
wrote:


interesting shot showing the fires during the life of the tree

http://media.eurekalert.org/multimed.../20963_web.jpg

Did you know that tree rings do not show years, but show rainy
seasons?



I always understood rings represent years, size of rings represent the
climate for that year. Do you have a reference by any chance?

I'll have to look for it, The reason it stuck in my mind was that
those people looking for the ark could tell by lumber with the lack of
rings in it.

Are ~those people~ the same ones who believe our square
planet is only 6000 years old and the baby Jesus put all
those dinosaur fossils here ~just to test our faith~ ?

No, and this is not the place for that type of discussion.

On 01/05/2016 6:17 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/5/2016 6:15 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Tue, 5 Jan 2016 09:00:09 -0800, Electric Comet
wrote:


interesting shot showing the fires during the life of the tree

http://media.eurekalert.org/multimed.../20963_web.jpg

Did you know that tree rings do not show years, but show rainy
seasons?



I always understood rings represent years, size of rings represent the
climate for that year. Do you have a reference by any chance?

The US FPL Wood Handbook --
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/products/publications/several_pubs.php?grouping_id=100

See chap 3 for botany lessons. Short version is, in temperate climates
such as most of the US, there is an annual growth and dormant season and
so the growth rings can be associated with that yearly cycle. How
prevalent they are is basically determined by the variety of the tree
itself, spacing is related to environmental and local conditions. But
it makes note that this is a temperate-zone characteristic and so to
refer them as "annual rings" isn't necessarily accurate; use the term
"growth rings" or "growth increment" instead.

OTOH, in many tropical woods it's essentially impossible to visually
detect growth rings altho I note in the 2010 edition it includes the
following: "... continuing research in this area has uncovered several
characteristics whereby growth rings can be correlated with seasonality
changes in some tropical species (Worbes 1995, 1999; Callado and others
2001)."

Shorter version is R. B. Hoadley's Understanding Wood, Taunton
Press...although I don't believe it's been revised; there's certainly
little to fault for a US audience and domestic woods on the subject
albeit it's not a botany textbook, either (nor, of course, is the
Handbook, but it is in more depth than Hoadley).

--

On 01/06/2016 9:34 AM, dpb wrote:
....

The US FPL Wood Handbook --
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/products/publications/several_pubs.php?grouping_id=100


See chap 3 for botany lessons. Short version is, in temperate climates
such as most of the US, there is an annual growth and dormant season and
so the growth rings can be associated with that yearly cycle. How
prevalent they are is basically determined by the variety of the tree
itself, spacing is related to environmental and local conditions. But it
makes note that this is a temperate-zone characteristic and so to refer
them as "annual rings" isn't necessarily accurate; use the term "growth
rings" or "growth increment" instead.

OTOH, in many tropical woods it's essentially impossible to visually
detect growth rings altho I note in the 2010 edition it includes the
following: "... continuing research in this area has uncovered several
characteristics whereby growth rings can be correlated with seasonality
changes in some tropical species (Worbes 1995, 1999; Callado and others
2001)."
....

First sentence 2nd paragraph is garbled -- I changed horses in
midsentence on what was planning on writing and didn't get all the first
outta' there that shoulda' been --

What was intended to say was impossible had to to with associating
growth rings with a necessarily annual cycle in tropical regions, not
that the growth increments are not visible.

--

OFWW wrote:

On Tue, 5 Jan 2016 09:00:09 -0800, Electric Comet
wrote:


interesting shot showing the fires during the life of the tree

http://media.eurekalert.org/multimed.../20963_web.jpg

Did you know that tree rings do not show years, but show rainy
seasons?

You might want to rethink that:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendrochronology

https://www.classzone.com/books/eart...2905page01.cfm

On Wed, 06 Jan 2016 03:16:54 +0000, Spalted Walt
wrote:

OFWW wrote:

On Tue, 5 Jan 2016 09:00:09 -0800, Electric Comet
wrote:


interesting shot showing the fires during the life of the tree

http://media.eurekalert.org/multimed.../20963_web.jpg

Did you know that tree rings do not show years, but show rainy
seasons?

You might want to rethink that:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendrochronology

These pages are full of errors, and a good deal of it is written by
those with narrow visions who think that what they see here in the US
applies globally. They have pulled in some historic notes in order to
add weight to their arguments, but they failed and the pages reflect
it by asking for confirmations, etc.

See my reply to Leon, where it is easy to see that it is the growth
season or lack of it that gives the rings. Sometimes multiple rings
from one year to the next.

I have seen mentions of this in some of our national parks.

https://www.classzone.com/books/eart...2905page01.cfm

Disclaimer on this page, "In general tree's have one growth ring per
year"

On Tue, 05 Jan 2016 16:15:26 -0800
OFWW wrote:

Did you know that tree rings do not show years, but show rainy
seasons?

it is not that simple
some can be decades and longer
as always it depends on many factors

dendrochronology is the study of the rings

there are photos of giant sequoia cross sections marked with historic
events that are fun to see

On 01/06/2016 9:55 AM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Tue, 05 Jan 2016 16:15:26 -0800
wrote:

Did you know that tree rings do not show years, but show rainy
seasons?

it is not that simple
some can be decades and longer

An individual growth increment? I'm certainly not aware of anything
that shows such a pattern. Reference????

as always it depends on many factors
....

Spacing, yes. Actual ring structure itself is simply a characteristic
of the individual species. Now, yes, while there are lots of species,
there are a (relatively few) characteristics into which individual trees
fall.

--

On 01/06/2016 10:22 AM, dpb wrote:
On 01/06/2016 9:55 AM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Tue, 05 Jan 2016 16:15:26 -0800
wrote:

Did you know that tree rings do not show years, but show rainy
seasons?

it is not that simple
some can be decades and longer

An individual growth increment? I'm certainly not aware of anything that
shows such a pattern. Reference????
....

Or perhaps are you simply referring to a period of time such as a
prolonged drought or the like that can bring a period of growth to near
standstill for as long as the particular event lasts and sometimes for
sometime thereafter before the specimen really fully recovers (presuming
it survives and does do so eventually, of course)?

That sort of thing certainly happens for any number of reasons, weather
patterns being the most notable for a given specimen. Over a longer
period of time over a number of generations one may see other more
longer-term trends although one may have to have some additional help in
that the forest was uprooted in a devastating event such a a flood,
buried in an anerobic environment and became fossilized or otherwise
preserved in order for us to find rings to count and ponder over their
meaning...a few thousand years for individual trees is their lifetime, a
mere blink of the eye in geologic time.

The bristlecone pine is, afaik, the longest-lived single tree, reaching
into the 5-6,000 yr neighborhood. The giant sequoias are mere
youngsters in comparison in the 3-4,000 range.

What's really unusual is that the Pando quaking aspen grove is the
oldest overall by a wide margin (80,000 to to perhaps as much as
1,000,000 by some estimates) but it's not the part you see; it (they?
) is a clonal colony of a single male quaking aspen. Individual stems
are more like only 100-130 years in age but they come up from the
underground root system, not by flowering/seed production. The whole
grove of some 100 acres and 40-50,000 "stems" are identical clones
genetically.

--

On Wed, 06 Jan 2016 14:19:08 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 01/06/2016 10:22 AM, dpb wrote:
On 01/06/2016 9:55 AM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Tue, 05 Jan 2016 16:15:26 -0800
wrote:

Did you know that tree rings do not show years, but show rainy
seasons?

it is not that simple
some can be decades and longer

An individual growth increment? I'm certainly not aware of anything that
shows such a pattern. Reference????
...

Or perhaps are you simply referring to a period of time such as a
prolonged drought or the like that can bring a period of growth to near
standstill for as long as the particular event lasts and sometimes for
sometime thereafter before the specimen really fully recovers (presuming
it survives and does do so eventually, of course)?

That sort of thing certainly happens for any number of reasons, weather
patterns being the most notable for a given specimen. Over a longer
period of time over a number of generations one may see other more
longer-term trends although one may have to have some additional help in
that the forest was uprooted in a devastating event such a a flood,
buried in an anerobic environment and became fossilized or otherwise
preserved in order for us to find rings to count and ponder over their
meaning...a few thousand years for individual trees is their lifetime, a
mere blink of the eye in geologic time.

The bristlecone pine is, afaik, the longest-lived single tree, reaching
into the 5-6,000 yr neighborhood. The giant sequoias are mere
youngsters in comparison in the 3-4,000 range.

What's really unusual is that the Pando quaking aspen grove is the
oldest overall by a wide margin (80,000 to to perhaps as much as
1,000,000 by some estimates) but it's not the part you see; it (they?
) is a clonal colony of a single male quaking aspen. Individual stems
are more like only 100-130 years in age but they come up from the
underground root system, not by flowering/seed production. The whole
grove of some 100 acres and 40-50,000 "stems" are identical clones
genetically.

There are tree's like that in La Jolla, Calif. To the naked eye people
mistake them for scrub pine due to their small stature, but some wise
person recognized them for what they are not too awful long ago, and
now they are protected. The only spot, I think, in NA

On Wed, 06 Jan 2016 10:22:43 -0600
dpb wrote:

An individual growth increment? I'm certainly not aware of anything
that shows such a pattern. Reference????

look at the sequoias

there are some great pics around with markings of historic events
over the life of the tree

the sequoias are special for sure and the annual ring does not apply
as yo noted it is the growth ring and it can span decades

trees are incredible
the blue gum and sequoias are more so due to their size

On 01/06/2016 4:22 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
....

the sequoias are special for sure and the annual ring does not apply
as yo noted it is the growth ring and it can span decades
....

A _given_ growth ring for a sequoia (or any other tree in the temperate
climatic zone) will absolutely _NOT_ span "decades". It'll be in accord
with the growing seasons which are, and have been for the life of these
trees, annual cycles.

It takes a place without these cycles for there to not be any
correlation; that ain't where the redwoods are.

--