box joint testing
Happened to come across this test of Joints, not all types but a
few,...and http://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/pockethole.html Our friend has a couple videos on it, he found with the wood he was using that the pocket screws, even with glue, was about the weakest, other than a butt joint with clue. Now I am not going to argue his methods of measuring since he did apply the same test to all, however in reviewing what he did and his points about pocket screws, I sort of think a shallower pocket, in conjunction with a slightly longer screw might help tremendously. So I am tossing out that idea for your consideration. I would ask him, since he has the gear set up for testing to verify it for curiosities sake, but then if he did so and it all worked out then he should be paid for the proof I would think. In any event, I do not think you will find any pocket screws in my new wall cabinets for my kitchen. I wish he had tested with domino joints. What does your experience tell us? |
box joint testing
On 12/18/2015 2:02 AM, OFWW wrote:
Happened to come across this test of Joints, not all types but a few,...and http://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/pockethole.html Our friend has a couple videos on it, he found with the wood he was using that the pocket screws, even with glue, was about the weakest, other than a butt joint with clue. Now I am not going to argue his methods of measuring since he did apply the same test to all, however in reviewing what he did and his points about pocket screws, I sort of think a shallower pocket, in conjunction with a slightly longer screw might help tremendously. Hard to say here, I don't recall where the pocket hole joint method failed. Did the screws pull out of the mating side or did the end grain of the pocket hole piece fail. If the former, I agree with your thoughts. If the later, shallower pocket holes might be better. Anyway I typically glue pocket hole joints when I use them. So I am tossing out that idea for your consideration. I would ask him, since he has the gear set up for testing to verify it for curiosities sake, but then if he did so and it all worked out then he should be paid for the proof I would think. In any event, I do not think you will find any pocket screws in my new wall cabinets for my kitchen. I wish he had tested with domino joints. What does your experience tell us? In my experience glued dowels and tenons and or floating tenons are better than screws. But another black eye for TBIII. LOL I have contacted Franklin more than a few times in the past 7+ years. My initial contact was to inquire on their position of the Wood Magazine glue test. Long story short TBIII did not do as well as TBII in the so called "Water Proof" testing. I did not recall the convoluted answer but they did send me a case of 4oz TBIII. The a year or two back I learned that you must periodically shake TBIII to keep the ingredients thoroughly mixed. The agent that gives the glue a longer open time will settle to the bottom and if let to sit there for a long period will be extremely difficult to remix with out actually mixing, not shake. There is also a shelf life on TBIII, and most bottles I see on the store shelves cut their recommended useful to 6 months or less. And Now this test once again shows that the lesser yellow glue appears to provide a stronger bond than TBIII. I think I am going back to TBII and or Elmers Probond or Gorilla White wood glue. |
box joint testing
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
: The a year or two back I learned that you must periodically shake TBIII to keep the ingredients thoroughly mixed. The agent that gives the glue a longer open time will settle to the bottom and if let to sit there for a long period will be extremely difficult to remix with out actually mixing, not shake. Wow, that's worth knowing. I haven't used TBIII until recently, but there is a bottle in the shop now. Guess I should shake it every time I walk past. I think as you suggest I'm going to stick with plain yellow glue (or epoxy if I need waterproof). John |
box joint testing
On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 09:04:25 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote: On 12/18/2015 2:02 AM, OFWW wrote: Happened to come across this test of Joints, not all types but a few,...and http://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/pockethole.html Our friend has a couple videos on it, he found with the wood he was using that the pocket screws, even with glue, was about the weakest, other than a butt joint with clue. Now I am not going to argue his methods of measuring since he did apply the same test to all, however in reviewing what he did and his points about pocket screws, I sort of think a shallower pocket, in conjunction with a slightly longer screw might help tremendously. Hard to say here, I don't recall where the pocket hole joint method failed. Did the screws pull out of the mating side or did the end grain of the pocket hole piece fail. If the former, I agree with your thoughts. If the later, shallower pocket holes might be better. Anyway I typically glue pocket hole joints when I use them. So I am tossing out that idea for your consideration. I would ask him, since he has the gear set up for testing to verify it for curiosities sake, but then if he did so and it all worked out then he should be paid for the proof I would think. In any event, I do not think you will find any pocket screws in my new wall cabinets for my kitchen. I wish he had tested with domino joints. What does your experience tell us? In my experience glued dowels and tenons and or floating tenons are better than screws. But another black eye for TBIII. LOL I have contacted Franklin more than a few times in the past 7+ years. My initial contact was to inquire on their position of the Wood Magazine glue test. Long story short TBIII did not do as well as TBII in the so called "Water Proof" testing. I did not recall the convoluted answer but they did send me a case of 4oz TBIII. The a year or two back I learned that you must periodically shake TBIII to keep the ingredients thoroughly mixed. The agent that gives the glue a longer open time will settle to the bottom and if let to sit there for a long period will be extremely difficult to remix with out actually mixing, not shake. There is also a shelf life on TBIII, and most bottles I see on the store shelves cut their recommended useful to 6 months or less. And Now this test once again shows that the lesser yellow glue appears to provide a stronger bond than TBIII. I think I am going back to TBII and or Elmers Probond or Gorilla White wood glue. this is all very interesting. As I am fixing to build 10 more beehives for spring at will amount to about 160 box joints that will need to be glued up. I find the results of TBIII compared to TBII or the elmers quite a surprise. |
box joint testing
On 12/18/15 2:02 AM, OFWW wrote:
Happened to come across this test of Joints, not all types but a few,...and http://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/pockethole.html Our friend has a couple videos on it, he found with the wood he was using that the pocket screws, even with glue, was about the weakest, other than a butt joint with clue. Now I am not going to argue his methods of measuring since he did apply the same test to all, however in reviewing what he did and his points about pocket screws, I sort of think a shallower pocket, in conjunction with a slightly longer screw might help tremendously. So I am tossing out that idea for your consideration. I would ask him, since he has the gear set up for testing to verify it for curiosities sake, but then if he did so and it all worked out then he should be paid for the proof I would think. In any event, I do not think you will find any pocket screws in my new wall cabinets for my kitchen. I wish he had tested with domino joints. What does your experience tell us? I've found that pocket screws are stronger in harder woods and yes, longer is better. All this, however, seems a bit too much like common sense to me. :-) I don't think I ever needed a test to tell me that a glued joint is going to be stronger that a pocket hole screw. Sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone, but that's always seemed like a "duh!" to me. Here's my verdict and why I use pocket screws. They're strong enough. I use them for joints and applications in which they are strong enough or even stronger. You don't always need a mortice & tenon joint, nor a dovetail, nor a rabbet joint. You don't always need glue. Some times a pocket screw is good enough. Some times it's better than good enough. And you know what? Some times it's perfect for the job. And I certainly didn't need to see a test to tell me two pocket screws in soft wood are much weaker than a glued M&T joint. :-) -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
box joint testing
On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 09:04:25 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote: On 12/18/2015 2:02 AM, OFWW wrote: Happened to come across this test of Joints, not all types but a few,...and http://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/pockethole.html Our friend has a couple videos on it, he found with the wood he was using that the pocket screws, even with glue, was about the weakest, other than a butt joint with clue. Now I am not going to argue his methods of measuring since he did apply the same test to all, however in reviewing what he did and his points about pocket screws, I sort of think a shallower pocket, in conjunction with a slightly longer screw might help tremendously. Hard to say here, I don't recall where the pocket hole joint method failed. Did the screws pull out of the mating side or did the end grain of the pocket hole piece fail. If the former, I agree with your thoughts. If the later, shallower pocket holes might be better. Anyway I typically glue pocket hole joints when I use them. He did tests both with and without glue, very little difference, the glue let go first. He did show the difference between screws both shallow and deep into the attached wood. Those that were deep, where you could almost see the tips, pulled the wood under the screw head free from the board with the pockets. If the screw was on the shallow side in the attached board then the board with the pocket was whole and the screw pulled out of the attached board. All material used was consistent on both sides. So I am tossing out that idea for your consideration. I would ask him, since he has the gear set up for testing to verify it for curiosities sake, but then if he did so and it all worked out then he should be paid for the proof I would think. In any event, I do not think you will find any pocket screws in my new wall cabinets for my kitchen. I wish he had tested with domino joints. What does your experience tell us? In my experience glued dowels and tenons and or floating tenons are better than screws. His as well. But another black eye for TBIII. LOL I have contacted Franklin more than a few times in the past 7+ years. My initial contact was to inquire on their position of the Wood Magazine glue test. Long story short TBIII did not do as well as TBII in the so called "Water Proof" testing. I did not recall the convoluted answer but they did send me a case of 4oz TBIII. The a year or two back I learned that you must periodically shake TBIII to keep the ingredients thoroughly mixed. The agent that gives the glue a longer open time will settle to the bottom and if let to sit there for a long period will be extremely difficult to remix with out actually mixing, not shake. There is also a shelf life on TBIII, and most bottles I see on the store shelves cut their recommended useful to 6 months or less. And Now this test once again shows that the lesser yellow glue appears to provide a stronger bond than TBIII. I think I am going back to TBII and or Elmers Probond or Gorilla White wood glue. I used their stuff made specifically for melamine, didn't appear to hold or bond much better than TBII, without screws I wouldn't use either. Those shop cabinets are coming down after other projects are done, I'll use them for jigs. |
box joint testing
On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 11:21:26 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote: On 12/18/15 2:02 AM, OFWW wrote: Happened to come across this test of Joints, not all types but a few,...and http://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/pockethole.html Our friend has a couple videos on it, he found with the wood he was using that the pocket screws, even with glue, was about the weakest, other than a butt joint with clue. Now I am not going to argue his methods of measuring since he did apply the same test to all, however in reviewing what he did and his points about pocket screws, I sort of think a shallower pocket, in conjunction with a slightly longer screw might help tremendously. So I am tossing out that idea for your consideration. I would ask him, since he has the gear set up for testing to verify it for curiosities sake, but then if he did so and it all worked out then he should be paid for the proof I would think. In any event, I do not think you will find any pocket screws in my new wall cabinets for my kitchen. I wish he had tested with domino joints. What does your experience tell us? I've found that pocket screws are stronger in harder woods and yes, longer is better. All this, however, seems a bit too much like common sense to me. :-) I don't think I ever needed a test to tell me that a glued joint is going to be stronger that a pocket hole screw. Sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone, but that's always seemed like a "duh!" to me. Well I need to learn all I can, the glue verses screws test lost to the screws. In pulling down cabinets in my kitchen I have been pulling them apart. They used dowels in the face frames with glue, after 40 years of sitting there the dowels mostly held strong, the glue and nail joints (or staples) were a mixed bag, it was surprising how much glue just gave up, where there was particle boards it was self destructing and stunk really bad. Sometimes I wonder if it isn't just better all around to use horse glue, and epoxy for the tough stuff. Here's my verdict and why I use pocket screws. They're strong enough. I use them for joints and applications in which they are strong enough or even stronger. You don't always need a mortice & tenon joint, nor a dovetail, nor a rabbet joint. You don't always need glue. Some times a pocket screw is good enough. Some times it's better than good enough. And you know what? Some times it's perfect for the job. And I certainly didn't need to see a test to tell me two pocket screws in soft wood are much weaker than a glued M&T joint. :-) I'd like to see a test between the green machines M&T joint and a 3 dowel. Especially between a square tenon vs rounded with everything else being equal. |
box joint testing
On 12/18/2015 10:48 AM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in : The a year or two back I learned that you must periodically shake TBIII to keep the ingredients thoroughly mixed. The agent that gives the glue a longer open time will settle to the bottom and if let to sit there for a long period will be extremely difficult to remix with out actually mixing, not shake. Wow, that's worth knowing. I haven't used TBIII until recently, but there is a bottle in the shop now. Guess I should shake it every time I walk past. I think as you suggest I'm going to stick with plain yellow glue (or epoxy if I need waterproof). John John, I used to also buy TiteBond Extend by the gallon. Same problem. I would transfer to a smaller bottle and it came out like milk. It worked fine but it sure was thin. Half way through that gallon it thickened to almost a pudding consistency. Talking to Franklin I learned that I needed to stir from the beginning. Try doing that! |
box joint testing
On 12/18/2015 10:50 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 09:04:25 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote: On 12/18/2015 2:02 AM, OFWW wrote: Happened to come across this test of Joints, not all types but a few,...and http://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/pockethole.html Our friend has a couple videos on it, he found with the wood he was using that the pocket screws, even with glue, was about the weakest, other than a butt joint with clue. Now I am not going to argue his methods of measuring since he did apply the same test to all, however in reviewing what he did and his points about pocket screws, I sort of think a shallower pocket, in conjunction with a slightly longer screw might help tremendously. Hard to say here, I don't recall where the pocket hole joint method failed. Did the screws pull out of the mating side or did the end grain of the pocket hole piece fail. If the former, I agree with your thoughts. If the later, shallower pocket holes might be better. Anyway I typically glue pocket hole joints when I use them. So I am tossing out that idea for your consideration. I would ask him, since he has the gear set up for testing to verify it for curiosities sake, but then if he did so and it all worked out then he should be paid for the proof I would think. In any event, I do not think you will find any pocket screws in my new wall cabinets for my kitchen. I wish he had tested with domino joints. What does your experience tell us? In my experience glued dowels and tenons and or floating tenons are better than screws. But another black eye for TBIII. LOL I have contacted Franklin more than a few times in the past 7+ years. My initial contact was to inquire on their position of the Wood Magazine glue test. Long story short TBIII did not do as well as TBII in the so called "Water Proof" testing. I did not recall the convoluted answer but they did send me a case of 4oz TBIII. The a year or two back I learned that you must periodically shake TBIII to keep the ingredients thoroughly mixed. The agent that gives the glue a longer open time will settle to the bottom and if let to sit there for a long period will be extremely difficult to remix with out actually mixing, not shake. There is also a shelf life on TBIII, and most bottles I see on the store shelves cut their recommended useful to 6 months or less. And Now this test once again shows that the lesser yellow glue appears to provide a stronger bond than TBIII. I think I am going back to TBII and or Elmers Probond or Gorilla White wood glue. this is all very interesting. As I am fixing to build 10 more beehives for spring at will amount to about 160 box joints that will need to be glued up. I find the results of TBIII compared to TBII or the elmers quite a surprise. Shocking IMHO. FWIW the "Water Proof" classification on the TBIII bottle is deceiving. I looked that classification up and learned that no where in the description of the testing method did the words water proof show up except in the title of the classification. Only water resistance was used. Sounds like a good old boys agreement among those in that industry. |
box joint testing
On 12/18/2015 11:21 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 12/18/15 2:02 AM, OFWW wrote: Happened to come across this test of Joints, not all types but a few,...and http://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/pockethole.html Our friend has a couple videos on it, he found with the wood he was using that the pocket screws, even with glue, was about the weakest, other than a butt joint with clue. Now I am not going to argue his methods of measuring since he did apply the same test to all, however in reviewing what he did and his points about pocket screws, I sort of think a shallower pocket, in conjunction with a slightly longer screw might help tremendously. So I am tossing out that idea for your consideration. I would ask him, since he has the gear set up for testing to verify it for curiosities sake, but then if he did so and it all worked out then he should be paid for the proof I would think. In any event, I do not think you will find any pocket screws in my new wall cabinets for my kitchen. I wish he had tested with domino joints. What does your experience tell us? I've found that pocket screws are stronger in harder woods and yes, longer is better. All this, however, seems a bit too much like common sense to me. :-) I don't think I ever needed a test to tell me that a glued joint is going to be stronger that a pocket hole screw. Sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone, but that's always seemed like a "duh!" to me. Here's my verdict and why I use pocket screws. They're strong enough. I use them for joints and applications in which they are strong enough or even stronger. You don't always need a mortice & tenon joint, nor a dovetail, nor a rabbet joint. You don't always need glue. Some times a pocket screw is good enough. Some times it's better than good enough. And you know what? Some times it's perfect for the job. And I certainly didn't need to see a test to tell me two pocket screws in soft wood are much weaker than a glued M&T joint. :-) I use pocket hole screws in 5 times more applications other than as pocket hole screws. It seems that pocket hole screws themselves are pretty darn good screws. In another discussion the counter sink drill bits came up. I often use the Kreg drill bit to drill my countersink and pilot hole and then use pocket holes in those holes and then plug with conventional round plugs. |
box joint testing
On 12/18/15 1:09 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 11:21:26 -0600, -MIKE- I've found that pocket screws are stronger in harder woods and yes, longer is better. All this, however, seems a bit too much like common sense to me. :-) I don't think I ever needed a test to tell me that a glued joint is going to be stronger that a pocket hole screw. Sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone, but that's always seemed like a "duh!" to me. Well I need to learn all I can, the glue verses screws test lost to the screws. In pulling down cabinets in my kitchen I have been pulling them apart. They used dowels in the face frames with glue, after 40 years of sitting there the dowels mostly held strong, the glue and nail joints (or staples) were a mixed bag, it was surprising how much glue just gave up, where there was particle boards it was self destructing and stunk really bad. IMO, it's the particle board that gave up. A glued particle board joint is only as good as the particle board, which we all know is about as strong as cheddar cheese. :-) Sometimes I wonder if it isn't just better all around to use horse glue, and epoxy for the tough stuff. Epoxy on particle board is only as strong as the particle board, right? But really, you already conducted the only *real world* test that has any relevance. You pulled down your cabinets and had to tear them apart, right? So glue, particle board, screws, staples, whatever combination of whatever they used worked for your cabinets. They didn't fall down, they had to be torn down. Fast forward to today, however, and we've reached to tipping point. We have major cabinet manufacturers using a strange, soft, hot-glue mix on their cabinets and drawers in combination with long staples, and that $h!t's just falling apart en masse all over the place. I may start a business that does nothing but repair and replace these crappy drawer fronts that are put together like this. I'm talking 1/2-3/4 million dollar homes using contractor grade cabinets built like this. It's disgusting... but lucrative. -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
box joint testing
On 12/18/15 1:13 PM, Leon wrote:
On 12/18/2015 10:48 AM, John McCoy wrote: Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in : The a year or two back I learned that you must periodically shake TBIII to keep the ingredients thoroughly mixed. The agent that gives the glue a longer open time will settle to the bottom and if let to sit there for a long period will be extremely difficult to remix with out actually mixing, not shake. Wow, that's worth knowing. I haven't used TBIII until recently, but there is a bottle in the shop now. Guess I should shake it every time I walk past. I think as you suggest I'm going to stick with plain yellow glue (or epoxy if I need waterproof). John John, I used to also buy TiteBond Extend by the gallon. Same problem. I would transfer to a smaller bottle and it came out like milk. It worked fine but it sure was thin. Half way through that gallon it thickened to almost a pudding consistency. Talking to Franklin I learned that I needed to stir from the beginning. Try doing that! I got sick of dealing with that and now I just buy more, smaller, bottles instead of trying to save money by buying one big one. Not worth the PITA to deal with stirring all the time. I'm on my last gallon and it'll be my last. -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
box joint testing
On 12/18/15 1:22 PM, Leon wrote:
On 12/18/2015 11:21 AM, -MIKE- wrote: On 12/18/15 2:02 AM, OFWW wrote: Happened to come across this test of Joints, not all types but a few,...and http://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/pockethole.html Our friend has a couple videos on it, he found with the wood he was using that the pocket screws, even with glue, was about the weakest, other than a butt joint with clue. Now I am not going to argue his methods of measuring since he did apply the same test to all, however in reviewing what he did and his points about pocket screws, I sort of think a shallower pocket, in conjunction with a slightly longer screw might help tremendously. So I am tossing out that idea for your consideration. I would ask him, since he has the gear set up for testing to verify it for curiosities sake, but then if he did so and it all worked out then he should be paid for the proof I would think. In any event, I do not think you will find any pocket screws in my new wall cabinets for my kitchen. I wish he had tested with domino joints. What does your experience tell us? I've found that pocket screws are stronger in harder woods and yes, longer is better. All this, however, seems a bit too much like common sense to me. :-) I don't think I ever needed a test to tell me that a glued joint is going to be stronger that a pocket hole screw. Sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone, but that's always seemed like a "duh!" to me. Here's my verdict and why I use pocket screws. They're strong enough. I use them for joints and applications in which they are strong enough or even stronger. You don't always need a mortice & tenon joint, nor a dovetail, nor a rabbet joint. You don't always need glue. Some times a pocket screw is good enough. Some times it's better than good enough. And you know what? Some times it's perfect for the job. And I certainly didn't need to see a test to tell me two pocket screws in soft wood are much weaker than a glued M&T joint. :-) I use pocket hole screws in 5 times more applications other than as pocket hole screws. It seems that pocket hole screws themselves are pretty darn good screws. In another discussion the counter sink drill bits came up. I often use the Kreg drill bit to drill my countersink and pilot hole and then use pocket holes in those holes and then plug with conventional round plugs. Ditto, ditto, ditto from me on everything you wrote. -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
box joint testing
-MIKE- wrote:
... I may start a business that does nothing but repair and replace these crappy drawer fronts that are put together like this. I'm talking 1/2-3/4 million dollar homes using contractor grade cabinets built like this. It's disgusting... but lucrative. To avoid issues like that, I think you might have to be your own contractor. |
box joint testing
On 12/18/15 1:45 PM, Bill wrote:
-MIKE- wrote: ... I may start a business that does nothing but repair and replace these crappy drawer fronts that are put together like this. I'm talking 1/2-3/4 million dollar homes using contractor grade cabinets built like this. It's disgusting... but lucrative. To avoid issues like that, I think you might have to be your own contractor. I'm not sure who misunderstood whom. :-) I'm saying I'll start a biz that goes around to these homes and repairs these crappy cabs. I'm already doing this with other things in this area. I make a decent amount of money fixing stuff that the original builders did poorly or outright wrong. In many cases, the homes are still under warranty from the builder, but the homeowners are so sick and tired of getting the run-around, blame games, or having the same people who did the crappy work to begin with come back to do more crappy work to "repair" their previous crappy work.... that they would rather *pay me* a premium to fix it and do it right than get it done for *free* by the incompetent builders. -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
box joint testing
On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 13:31:08 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote: On 12/18/15 1:09 PM, OFWW wrote: On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 11:21:26 -0600, -MIKE- I've found that pocket screws are stronger in harder woods and yes, longer is better. All this, however, seems a bit too much like common sense to me. :-) I don't think I ever needed a test to tell me that a glued joint is going to be stronger that a pocket hole screw. Sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone, but that's always seemed like a "duh!" to me. Well I need to learn all I can, the glue verses screws test lost to the screws. In pulling down cabinets in my kitchen I have been pulling them apart. They used dowels in the face frames with glue, after 40 years of sitting there the dowels mostly held strong, the glue and nail joints (or staples) were a mixed bag, it was surprising how much glue just gave up, where there was particle boards it was self destructing and stunk really bad. IMO, it's the particle board that gave up. A glued particle board joint is only as good as the particle board, which we all know is about as strong as cheddar cheese. :-) Sometimes I wonder if it isn't just better all around to use horse glue, and epoxy for the tough stuff. Epoxy on particle board is only as strong as the particle board, right? But really, you already conducted the only *real world* test that has any relevance. You pulled down your cabinets and had to tear them apart, right? So glue, particle board, screws, staples, whatever combination of whatever they used worked for your cabinets. They didn't fall down, they had to be torn down. Well, actually the shelves were cupped, on the wall units, one group of cabinets was sagging more and more, but the faces being oak were tough as nails, and the ends were Oak plywood and basically they were what was holding it all together. As you noted the particle board was all crap, crumbly, sagging and so on. And yes, the "real world test" was worth its weight in gold. As a result I am wondering if 1/2" ply cabinet grade isn't just as good as 3/4" for my purposes, as 1/2" will support granite or whatever, and for shelving should last at least 50 years or until the next earthquake. :) Fast forward to today, however, and we've reached to tipping point. We have major cabinet manufacturers using a strange, soft, hot-glue mix on their cabinets and drawers in combination with long staples, and that $h!t's just falling apart en masse all over the place. I may start a business that does nothing but repair and replace these crappy drawer fronts that are put together like this. I'm talking 1/2-3/4 million dollar homes using contractor grade cabinets built like this. It's disgusting... but lucrative. Seems like the cabinet doors are all stamped out like model A fenders around here, and they sell it as a kitchen upgrade using your existing cabinets. Found I make upgraded cabinets, increase the storage space by at least 1/2 and make it look really good for 1/2 the price of box store contractor upgraded doors alone. Give or take a little. Plus, for me it is fun. |
box joint testing
On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 13:22:23 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote: On 12/18/2015 11:21 AM, -MIKE- wrote: On 12/18/15 2:02 AM, OFWW wrote: Happened to come across this test of Joints, not all types but a few,...and http://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/pockethole.html Our friend has a couple videos on it, he found with the wood he was using that the pocket screws, even with glue, was about the weakest, other than a butt joint with clue. Now I am not going to argue his methods of measuring since he did apply the same test to all, however in reviewing what he did and his points about pocket screws, I sort of think a shallower pocket, in conjunction with a slightly longer screw might help tremendously. So I am tossing out that idea for your consideration. I would ask him, since he has the gear set up for testing to verify it for curiosities sake, but then if he did so and it all worked out then he should be paid for the proof I would think. In any event, I do not think you will find any pocket screws in my new wall cabinets for my kitchen. I wish he had tested with domino joints. What does your experience tell us? I've found that pocket screws are stronger in harder woods and yes, longer is better. All this, however, seems a bit too much like common sense to me. :-) I don't think I ever needed a test to tell me that a glued joint is going to be stronger that a pocket hole screw. Sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone, but that's always seemed like a "duh!" to me. Here's my verdict and why I use pocket screws. They're strong enough. I use them for joints and applications in which they are strong enough or even stronger. You don't always need a mortice & tenon joint, nor a dovetail, nor a rabbet joint. You don't always need glue. Some times a pocket screw is good enough. Some times it's better than good enough. And you know what? Some times it's perfect for the job. And I certainly didn't need to see a test to tell me two pocket screws in soft wood are much weaker than a glued M&T joint. :-) I use pocket hole screws in 5 times more applications other than as pocket hole screws. It seems that pocket hole screws themselves are pretty darn good screws. In another discussion the counter sink drill bits came up. I often use the Kreg drill bit to drill my countersink and pilot hole and then use pocket holes in those holes and then plug with conventional round plugs. Sounds like a great idea, I have both sizes of their pocket hole drill bits. And the smaller one sound good for certain things, and then you can make your own plugs in various styles. Good idea! |
box joint testing
On 12/18/2015 1:33 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 12/18/15 1:13 PM, Leon wrote: On 12/18/2015 10:48 AM, John McCoy wrote: Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in : The a year or two back I learned that you must periodically shake TBIII to keep the ingredients thoroughly mixed. The agent that gives the glue a longer open time will settle to the bottom and if let to sit there for a long period will be extremely difficult to remix with out actually mixing, not shake. Wow, that's worth knowing. I haven't used TBIII until recently, but there is a bottle in the shop now. Guess I should shake it every time I walk past. I think as you suggest I'm going to stick with plain yellow glue (or epoxy if I need waterproof). John John, I used to also buy TiteBond Extend by the gallon. Same problem. I would transfer to a smaller bottle and it came out like milk. It worked fine but it sure was thin. Half way through that gallon it thickened to almost a pudding consistency. Talking to Franklin I learned that I needed to stir from the beginning. Try doing that! I got sick of dealing with that and now I just buy more, smaller, bottles instead of trying to save money by buying one big one. Not worth the PITA to deal with stirring all the time. I'm on my last gallon and it'll be my last. Yes, I buy quarts now. BUT the regular TBI and TBII should not be a problem. It seems to be more with the longer extend times that present the short life shelf life. |
box joint testing
On 12/18/2015 3:47 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 13:22:23 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote: On 12/18/2015 11:21 AM, -MIKE- wrote: On 12/18/15 2:02 AM, OFWW wrote: Happened to come across this test of Joints, not all types but a few,...and http://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/pockethole.html Our friend has a couple videos on it, he found with the wood he was using that the pocket screws, even with glue, was about the weakest, other than a butt joint with clue. Now I am not going to argue his methods of measuring since he did apply the same test to all, however in reviewing what he did and his points about pocket screws, I sort of think a shallower pocket, in conjunction with a slightly longer screw might help tremendously. So I am tossing out that idea for your consideration. I would ask him, since he has the gear set up for testing to verify it for curiosities sake, but then if he did so and it all worked out then he should be paid for the proof I would think. In any event, I do not think you will find any pocket screws in my new wall cabinets for my kitchen. I wish he had tested with domino joints. What does your experience tell us? I've found that pocket screws are stronger in harder woods and yes, longer is better. All this, however, seems a bit too much like common sense to me. :-) I don't think I ever needed a test to tell me that a glued joint is going to be stronger that a pocket hole screw. Sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone, but that's always seemed like a "duh!" to me. Here's my verdict and why I use pocket screws. They're strong enough. I use them for joints and applications in which they are strong enough or even stronger. You don't always need a mortice & tenon joint, nor a dovetail, nor a rabbet joint. You don't always need glue. Some times a pocket screw is good enough. Some times it's better than good enough. And you know what? Some times it's perfect for the job. And I certainly didn't need to see a test to tell me two pocket screws in soft wood are much weaker than a glued M&T joint. :-) I use pocket hole screws in 5 times more applications other than as pocket hole screws. It seems that pocket hole screws themselves are pretty darn good screws. In another discussion the counter sink drill bits came up. I often use the Kreg drill bit to drill my countersink and pilot hole and then use pocket holes in those holes and then plug with conventional round plugs. Sounds like a great idea, I have both sizes of their pocket hole drill bits. And the smaller one sound good for certain things, and then you can make your own plugs in various styles. Good idea! I have not used the small pocket hole bit yet. What diameter is that? The standard size is 3/8" so cutting your own plugs is not a problem. |
box joint testing
On Friday, December 18, 2015 at 11:10:06 AM UTC-8, OFWW wrote:
On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 11:21:26 -0600, -MIKE- wrote: On 12/18/15 2:02 AM, OFWW wrote: Happened to come across this test of Joints, not all types but a few,...and http://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/pockethole.html Well I need to learn all I can, the glue verses screws test lost to the screws. No, it won. A proper glue joint is NEVER end-grain to long-grain, so a right-angle joint, glued, to compare to a right-angle pocket screw joint, would be mortise/tenon or box joint. Those, because the strain is spread over large area, allow the glue to hold. A simple butt joint, or even a shelf poked into a dado, affords only endgrain-to-long-grain surfaces mating, and we've all disassembled that kind of joint. It comes apart easily. |
box joint testing
-MIKE- wrote:
In many cases, the homes are still under warranty from the builder, but the homeowners are so sick and tired of getting the run-around, blame games, or having the same people who did the crappy work to begin with come back to do more crappy work to "repair" their previous crappy work.... that they would rather *pay me* a premium to fix it and do it right than get it done for *free* by the incompetent builders. Yes, I understand. By the time they meet you they are disgusted. They thought they paid for quality the first time around! |
box joint testing
On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 15:14:14 -0800 (PST), whit3rd
wrote: On Friday, December 18, 2015 at 11:10:06 AM UTC-8, OFWW wrote: On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 11:21:26 -0600, -MIKE- wrote: On 12/18/15 2:02 AM, OFWW wrote: Happened to come across this test of Joints, not all types but a few,...and http://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/pockethole.html Well I need to learn all I can, the glue verses screws test lost to the screws. No, it won. A proper glue joint is NEVER end-grain to long-grain, so a right-angle joint, glued, to compare to a right-angle pocket screw joint, would be mortise/tenon or box joint. Those, because the strain is spread over large area, allow the glue to hold. A simple butt joint, or even a shelf poked into a dado, affords only endgrain-to-long-grain surfaces mating, and we've all disassembled that kind of joint. It comes apart easily. LOL, Actually you are correct. I guess I got caught up in Matthias (sp) surprise that the glue joint failed so quickly, but you described it spot on, Thanks Still, as you say, the other joints were clearly superior and the finger joints as well with glue. I love all this learning, never felt so stupid in all my life. |
box joint testing
On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 16:27:15 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote: On 12/18/2015 3:47 PM, OFWW wrote: On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 13:22:23 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote: On 12/18/2015 11:21 AM, -MIKE- wrote: On 12/18/15 2:02 AM, OFWW wrote: Happened to come across this test of Joints, not all types but a few,...and http://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/pockethole.html Our friend has a couple videos on it, he found with the wood he was using that the pocket screws, even with glue, was about the weakest, other than a butt joint with clue. Now I am not going to argue his methods of measuring since he did apply the same test to all, however in reviewing what he did and his points about pocket screws, I sort of think a shallower pocket, in conjunction with a slightly longer screw might help tremendously. So I am tossing out that idea for your consideration. I would ask him, since he has the gear set up for testing to verify it for curiosities sake, but then if he did so and it all worked out then he should be paid for the proof I would think. In any event, I do not think you will find any pocket screws in my new wall cabinets for my kitchen. I wish he had tested with domino joints. What does your experience tell us? I've found that pocket screws are stronger in harder woods and yes, longer is better. All this, however, seems a bit too much like common sense to me. :-) I don't think I ever needed a test to tell me that a glued joint is going to be stronger that a pocket hole screw. Sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone, but that's always seemed like a "duh!" to me. Here's my verdict and why I use pocket screws. They're strong enough. I use them for joints and applications in which they are strong enough or even stronger. You don't always need a mortice & tenon joint, nor a dovetail, nor a rabbet joint. You don't always need glue. Some times a pocket screw is good enough. Some times it's better than good enough. And you know what? Some times it's perfect for the job. And I certainly didn't need to see a test to tell me two pocket screws in soft wood are much weaker than a glued M&T joint. :-) I use pocket hole screws in 5 times more applications other than as pocket hole screws. It seems that pocket hole screws themselves are pretty darn good screws. In another discussion the counter sink drill bits came up. I often use the Kreg drill bit to drill my countersink and pilot hole and then use pocket holes in those holes and then plug with conventional round plugs. Sounds like a great idea, I have both sizes of their pocket hole drill bits. And the smaller one sound good for certain things, and then you can make your own plugs in various styles. Good idea! I have not used the small pocket hole bit yet. What diameter is that? The standard size is 3/8" so cutting your own plugs is not a problem. It is 19/64" or 7mm. It is the micro 3 holer for 1" narrow stock or 1/2 " wood. It fits my normal Kreg Jig. |
box joint testing
On Friday, December 18, 2015 at 11:22:36 AM UTC-8, Leon wrote:
I use pocket hole screws in 5 times more applications other than as pocket hole screws. It seems that pocket hole screws themselves are pretty darn good screws. In another discussion the counter sink drill bits came up. I often use the Kreg drill bit to drill my countersink and pilot hole... Yes, that's a good match; the Kreg-style step drills are certainly the right drills and countersinks for the compatible screws. Those (drill bits) are available (eBay) without the jigs, and the screws are well stocked lots of places. |
box joint testing
OFWW wrote:
On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 16:27:15 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote: On 12/18/2015 3:47 PM, OFWW wrote: On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 13:22:23 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote: On 12/18/2015 11:21 AM, -MIKE- wrote: On 12/18/15 2:02 AM, OFWW wrote: Happened to come across this test of Joints, not all types but a few,...and http://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/pockethole.html Our friend has a couple videos on it, he found with the wood he was using that the pocket screws, even with glue, was about the weakest, other than a butt joint with clue. Now I am not going to argue his methods of measuring since he did apply the same test to all, however in reviewing what he did and his points about pocket screws, I sort of think a shallower pocket, in conjunction with a slightly longer screw might help tremendously. So I am tossing out that idea for your consideration. I would ask him, since he has the gear set up for testing to verify it for curiosities sake, but then if he did so and it all worked out then he should be paid for the proof I would think. In any event, I do not think you will find any pocket screws in my new wall cabinets for my kitchen. I wish he had tested with domino joints. What does your experience tell us? I've found that pocket screws are stronger in harder woods and yes, longer is better. All this, however, seems a bit too much like common sense to me. :-) I don't think I ever needed a test to tell me that a glued joint is going to be stronger that a pocket hole screw. Sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone, but that's always seemed like a "duh!" to me. Here's my verdict and why I use pocket screws. They're strong enough. I use them for joints and applications in which they are strong enough or even stronger. You don't always need a mortice & tenon joint, nor a dovetail, nor a rabbet joint. You don't always need glue. Some times a pocket screw is good enough. Some times it's better than good enough. And you know what? Some times it's perfect for the job. And I certainly didn't need to see a test to tell me two pocket screws in soft wood are much weaker than a glued M&T joint. :-) I use pocket hole screws in 5 times more applications other than as pocket hole screws. It seems that pocket hole screws themselves are pretty darn good screws. In another discussion the counter sink drill bits came up. I often use the Kreg drill bit to drill my countersink and pilot hole and then use pocket holes in those holes and then plug with conventional round plugs. Sounds like a great idea, I have both sizes of their pocket hole drill bits. And the smaller one sound good for certain things, and then you can make your own plugs in various styles. Good idea! I have not used the small pocket hole bit yet. What diameter is that? The standard size is 3/8" so cutting your own plugs is not a problem. It is 19/64" or 7mm. It is the micro 3 holer for 1" narrow stock or 1/2 " wood. It fits my normal Kreg Jig. That size will probably be difficult to find round plugs to be filled with. |
box joint testing
OFWW wrote in news:nhl87blam8cac5qil6k02isjb9c1n5neli@
4ax.com: I'd like to see a test between the green machines M&T joint and a 3 dowel. Especially between a square tenon vs rounded with everything else being equal. Can't be done. Several groups have tested various joints in various ways over the years, and invariably come to the conclusion that there's too much variation in the wood used to resolve the difference between joints of similar strength. "Everything else being equal" just isn't going to exist with wood. John |
box joint testing
On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 23:40:57 -0800 (PST), whit3rd
wrote: On Friday, December 18, 2015 at 11:22:36 AM UTC-8, Leon wrote: I use pocket hole screws in 5 times more applications other than as pocket hole screws. It seems that pocket hole screws themselves are pretty darn good screws. In another discussion the counter sink drill bits came up. I often use the Kreg drill bit to drill my countersink and pilot hole... Yes, that's a good match; the Kreg-style step drills are certainly the right drills and countersinks for the compatible screws. Those (drill bits) are available (eBay) without the jigs, and the screws are well stocked lots of places. The Kreg step drill bits are available at almost as many places as the screws. I've seen them at many WW stores as well as the BORG and Lowes. |
box joint testing
On Sat, 19 Dec 2015 15:10:18 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy
wrote: OFWW wrote in news:nhl87blam8cac5qil6k02isjb9c1n5neli@ 4ax.com: I'd like to see a test between the green machines M&T joint and a 3 dowel. Especially between a square tenon vs rounded with everything else being equal. Can't be done. Several groups have tested various joints in various ways over the years, and invariably come to the conclusion that there's too much variation in the wood used to resolve the difference between joints of similar strength. "Everything else being equal" just isn't going to exist with wood. John Thanks for the info. I still wonder if there was a constant wide set of break points, on a certain day, with the same batch of wood, that some conclusion couldn't be made. |
box joint testing
On Sat, 19 Dec 2015 08:34:15 -0600, Leon wrote:
OFWW wrote: On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 16:27:15 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote: On 12/18/2015 3:47 PM, OFWW wrote: On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 13:22:23 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote: On 12/18/2015 11:21 AM, -MIKE- wrote: On 12/18/15 2:02 AM, OFWW wrote: Happened to come across this test of Joints, not all types but a few,...and http://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/pockethole.html Our friend has a couple videos on it, he found with the wood he was using that the pocket screws, even with glue, was about the weakest, other than a butt joint with clue. Now I am not going to argue his methods of measuring since he did apply the same test to all, however in reviewing what he did and his points about pocket screws, I sort of think a shallower pocket, in conjunction with a slightly longer screw might help tremendously. So I am tossing out that idea for your consideration. I would ask him, since he has the gear set up for testing to verify it for curiosities sake, but then if he did so and it all worked out then he should be paid for the proof I would think. In any event, I do not think you will find any pocket screws in my new wall cabinets for my kitchen. I wish he had tested with domino joints. What does your experience tell us? I've found that pocket screws are stronger in harder woods and yes, longer is better. All this, however, seems a bit too much like common sense to me. :-) I don't think I ever needed a test to tell me that a glued joint is going to be stronger that a pocket hole screw. Sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone, but that's always seemed like a "duh!" to me. Here's my verdict and why I use pocket screws. They're strong enough. I use them for joints and applications in which they are strong enough or even stronger. You don't always need a mortice & tenon joint, nor a dovetail, nor a rabbet joint. You don't always need glue. Some times a pocket screw is good enough. Some times it's better than good enough. And you know what? Some times it's perfect for the job. And I certainly didn't need to see a test to tell me two pocket screws in soft wood are much weaker than a glued M&T joint. :-) I use pocket hole screws in 5 times more applications other than as pocket hole screws. It seems that pocket hole screws themselves are pretty darn good screws. In another discussion the counter sink drill bits came up. I often use the Kreg drill bit to drill my countersink and pilot hole and then use pocket holes in those holes and then plug with conventional round plugs. Sounds like a great idea, I have both sizes of their pocket hole drill bits. And the smaller one sound good for certain things, and then you can make your own plugs in various styles. Good idea! I have not used the small pocket hole bit yet. What diameter is that? The standard size is 3/8" so cutting your own plugs is not a problem. It is 19/64" or 7mm. It is the micro 3 holer for 1" narrow stock or 1/2 " wood. It fits my normal Kreg Jig. That size will probably be difficult to find round plugs to be filled with. http://www.rockler.com/kreg-micro-po...ct+listing+ads Did a quick check, they make them and for flush trim they could be cut. Depends on how bad one wants them? |
box joint testing
|
box joint testing
OFWW wrote in news:2erb7b5q6826j2itao0ka18gmped2hqkd3@
4ax.com: Thanks for the info. I still wonder if there was a constant wide set of break points, on a certain day, with the same batch of wood, that some conclusion couldn't be made. Well, that's a different question. You could certainly group results together, accepting that within some range of measurement error a group is "the same", and then look for differences between groups. As I recall, when Fine Woodworking did their test several years ago, all the machined mortise & tenon variations were effectively the same (regular M&T, floating tenon, wedged tenon, etc). All of them were significantly stronger than dowelmax, beadlock, dominoes, etc. I also recall there there was a difference in the failures, with the M&T always breaking the tenon, and the beadlock, etc, breaking the mortise. There was discussion at the time as to the significance of that difference, but I don't recall any conclusions. John |
box joint testing
On 12/18/2015 1:31 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
I may start a business that does nothing but repair and replace these crappy drawer fronts that are put together like this. I'm talking 1/2-3/4 million dollar homes using contractor grade cabinets built like this. It's disgusting... but lucrative. Shhhhh.... -- eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/ KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) |
box joint testing
On 12/20/15 10:15 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 12/18/2015 1:31 PM, -MIKE- wrote: I may start a business that does nothing but repair and replace these crappy drawer fronts that are put together like this. I'm talking 1/2-3/4 million dollar homes using contractor grade cabinets built like this. It's disgusting... but lucrative. Shhhhh.... +1 I was talking to a GC around here who actually tries his best to do the highest quality work he can and cares about his clients and pleasing them. He said the reason I'm seeing this so much is because the margins for a builder are often the same or less on a $650k home as they are on the $190k home. Both homes might be on 1/2-3/4 acre lots but the lot for the $650k home costs $350k and the house is expected to be 4x the size of the $190k house, have detailed trim-- chair, picture, 3 and 4 piece crown throughout-- recessed ceilings in almost every room, and a kitchen that looks like it's from the cover of a magazine, etc, etc. The man hours for building the bigger home are much greater, as well. By the time the builder has done all this, he's set to make the same or less on the bigger house with the price tag 3.5x higher. He said this is why you get builders using particleboard cabinets in these giant homes because by the time you add up the hundred or more cabinets in these behemoth McMansions they can save $20k just by downgrading the cabinets. -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
box joint testing
On 12/19/2015 6:04 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Sat, 19 Dec 2015 08:34:15 -0600, Leon wrote: OFWW wrote: On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 16:27:15 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote: On 12/18/2015 3:47 PM, OFWW wrote: On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 13:22:23 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote: On 12/18/2015 11:21 AM, -MIKE- wrote: On 12/18/15 2:02 AM, OFWW wrote: Happened to come across this test of Joints, not all types but a few,...and http://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/pockethole.html Our friend has a couple videos on it, he found with the wood he was using that the pocket screws, even with glue, was about the weakest, other than a butt joint with clue. Now I am not going to argue his methods of measuring since he did apply the same test to all, however in reviewing what he did and his points about pocket screws, I sort of think a shallower pocket, in conjunction with a slightly longer screw might help tremendously. So I am tossing out that idea for your consideration. I would ask him, since he has the gear set up for testing to verify it for curiosities sake, but then if he did so and it all worked out then he should be paid for the proof I would think. In any event, I do not think you will find any pocket screws in my new wall cabinets for my kitchen. I wish he had tested with domino joints. What does your experience tell us? I've found that pocket screws are stronger in harder woods and yes, longer is better. All this, however, seems a bit too much like common sense to me. :-) I don't think I ever needed a test to tell me that a glued joint is going to be stronger that a pocket hole screw. Sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone, but that's always seemed like a "duh!" to me. Here's my verdict and why I use pocket screws. They're strong enough. I use them for joints and applications in which they are strong enough or even stronger. You don't always need a mortice & tenon joint, nor a dovetail, nor a rabbet joint. You don't always need glue. Some times a pocket screw is good enough. Some times it's better than good enough. And you know what? Some times it's perfect for the job. And I certainly didn't need to see a test to tell me two pocket screws in soft wood are much weaker than a glued M&T joint. :-) I use pocket hole screws in 5 times more applications other than as pocket hole screws. It seems that pocket hole screws themselves are pretty darn good screws. In another discussion the counter sink drill bits came up. I often use the Kreg drill bit to drill my countersink and pilot hole and then use pocket holes in those holes and then plug with conventional round plugs. Sounds like a great idea, I have both sizes of their pocket hole drill bits. And the smaller one sound good for certain things, and then you can make your own plugs in various styles. Good idea! I have not used the small pocket hole bit yet. What diameter is that? The standard size is 3/8" so cutting your own plugs is not a problem. It is 19/64" or 7mm. It is the micro 3 holer for 1" narrow stock or 1/2 " wood. It fits my normal Kreg Jig. That size will probably be difficult to find round plugs to be filled with. http://www.rockler.com/kreg-micro-po...ct+listing+ads Did a quick check, they make them and for flush trim they could be cut. Depends on how bad one wants them? Yeah that would be tedious. Like cutting small parts for boxes. l~) |
box joint testing
On Sun, 20 Dec 2015 11:19:33 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote: On 12/20/15 10:15 AM, Swingman wrote: On 12/18/2015 1:31 PM, -MIKE- wrote: I may start a business that does nothing but repair and replace these crappy drawer fronts that are put together like this. I'm talking 1/2-3/4 million dollar homes using contractor grade cabinets built like this. It's disgusting... but lucrative. Shhhhh.... +1 I was talking to a GC around here who actually tries his best to do the highest quality work he can and cares about his clients and pleasing them. He said the reason I'm seeing this so much is because the margins for a builder are often the same or less on a $650k home as they are on the $190k home. Both homes might be on 1/2-3/4 acre lots but the lot for the $650k home costs $350k and the house is expected to be 4x the size of the $190k house, have detailed trim-- chair, picture, 3 and 4 piece crown throughout-- recessed ceilings in almost every room, and a kitchen that looks like it's from the cover of a magazine, etc, etc. The man hours for building the bigger home are much greater, as well. By the time the builder has done all this, he's set to make the same or less on the bigger house with the price tag 3.5x higher. He said this is why you get builders using particleboard cabinets in these giant homes because by the time you add up the hundred or more cabinets in these behemoth McMansions they can save $20k just by downgrading the cabinets. The stories I could tell about this type of thing. The ultra wealthy or old money often are penny wise and pound foolish, the newly rich, whatever they are called are cheap and tight, yet demand what they think is the very best. I remember one pilot who was having a custom dockside home built with one of the wildest floor plans you ever saw, from the 1st floor to the patio on the roof of a 3 story home. Well, he got into it with the GC about the fire blocks, demanding that they be one straight line on every wall. The end result? The owner came out every day after hours and removed every other fire block and toenailed them all in. Yes, on all floors. It was when I was doing residential HVAC along with commercial/industrial. I also have some friends who are worth 100's of millions who have custom homes built for them, I asked them about the quality they were expecting, except for things that were of particular interest to them, they went for fastest, lowest cost all the while knowing they were really going to have to pay to get real quality later. Not true with everyone I knew but many. I learned to figure out what type of a person they were and give them what they wanted, a cheap whore, or a quality reserved job, if you know what I mean. But I was honest with them up front. I learned early on what you said about the real difference between custom and track homes. A major disappointment in most cases. |
box joint testing
On Sun, 20 Dec 2015 15:38:56 -0000 (UTC), John McCoy
wrote: OFWW wrote in news:2erb7b5q6826j2itao0ka18gmped2hqkd3@ 4ax.com: Thanks for the info. I still wonder if there was a constant wide set of break points, on a certain day, with the same batch of wood, that some conclusion couldn't be made. Well, that's a different question. You could certainly group results together, accepting that within some range of measurement error a group is "the same", and then look for differences between groups. As I recall, when Fine Woodworking did their test several years ago, all the machined mortise & tenon variations were effectively the same (regular M&T, floating tenon, wedged tenon, etc). All of them were significantly stronger than dowelmax, beadlock, dominoes, etc. I also recall there there was a difference in the failures, with the M&T always breaking the tenon, and the beadlock, etc, breaking the mortise. There was discussion at the time as to the significance of that difference, but I don't recall any conclusions. John John, thanks for the info, I'll keep it all in mind, best I can, and use the info as I am working, while using the best common sense I can muster. |
box joint testing
On 12/18/2015 6:14 PM, whit3rd wrote:
On Friday, December 18, 2015 at 11:10:06 AM UTC-8, OFWW wrote: On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 11:21:26 -0600, -MIKE- wrote: On 12/18/15 2:02 AM, OFWW wrote: Happened to come across this test of Joints, not all types but a few,...and http://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/pockethole.html Well I need to learn all I can, the glue verses screws test lost to the screws. No, it won. A proper glue joint is NEVER end-grain to long-grain, so a right-angle joint, glued, to compare to a right-angle pocket screw joint, would be mortise/tenon or box joint. Those, because the strain is spread over large area, allow the glue to hold. A simple butt joint, or even a shelf poked into a dado, affords only endgrain-to-long-grain surfaces mating, and we've all disassembled that kind of joint. It comes apart easily. My experience is using glue on end-grain is mostly a waste of glue. I never use glue with pocket screws. On the other hand, a "proper" glued joint is always stronger than the wood. Edge glue-ups don't need anything but glue. I also agree with Mike that it is pretty much common sense that a mortise and tenon is stronger than a pocket hole joint. I don't own a domino (wish I did) but my "common sense" says it's just as good as a standard mortise and tenon, and a whole lot easier and faster to complete. I also believe that if you use a router to make a mortise, there is no need to round over the tenon, it is strong enough with no need to fit length wise. I don't use a router for this so it's just a thought. Pocket hole joints are the right joint for many things, particularly face frames. I myself would not use them for structural joints. Scott Phillips, the anti-woodworker and Kreg whore uses them for about everything, and puts like 3 or 4 in an 1 1/2" wide face frame, but also uses them in frame and panel doors (what an idiot). Scott is to Kreg what Norm was to nail guns. -- Jack Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life. http://jbstein.com |
box joint testing
Jack wrote in :
On the other hand, a "proper" glued joint is always stronger than the wood. Assuming, of course, that "proper" includes using a suitable glue. Hot melt and cyanoacrylate being examples of unsuitable glues. Possibly also hide glue, depending on the type of joint. I also believe that if you use a router to make a mortise, there is no need to round over the tenon, it is strong enough with no need to fit length wise. "Strong enough" is probably true in most cases. I think a tenon which fits the mortise in both directions is stronger (and if I remember correctly FWW's test a few years back confirmed that), but it's probably stronger than it needs to be for most applications. Something which takes a lot of racking force across a small joint, like a chair assembly, would probably benefit from a fully-formed tenon. John |
box joint testing
On 12/21/2015 2:01 PM, John McCoy wrote:
.... "Strong enough" is probably true in most cases. I think a tenon which fits the mortise in both directions is stronger (and if I remember correctly FWW's test a few years back confirmed that), but it's probably stronger than it needs to be for most applications. Something which takes a lot of racking force across a small joint, like a chair assembly, would probably benefit from a fully-formed tenon. I recall the article pretty well; I don't think this particular point was in the test matrix. What was, best of my recollection was the loose tenon and standard and some minimal amount of testing for a "loose" vis a vis "snug" tenon in the mortise to illustrate a "good" and "not so good" quality of fitting the tenon but I do not recall the squared tenon in the rounded/routed mortise. It's obvious from simple mechanics similarly to the obvious conclusion above a pocket screw that the should requires crushing the material to move whereas the open area requires "only" moving the glue with at least initial deformation of much less material for a given amount of racking displacement. -- |
box joint testing
John McCoy wrote in
: Assuming, of course, that "proper" includes using a suitable glue. Hot melt and cyanoacrylate being examples of unsuitable glues. Possibly also hide glue, depending on the type of joint. Other than cost, is there a reason CA glue is unsuitable? I'd used it on wood (not as a joint glue) and it does bond pretty well. Depending on the CA glue, you could get 30-60 seconds of open time. (Some of the thick stuff really needs accelerator or clamping.) Puckdropper -- Make it to fit, don't make it fit. |
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