On Wednesday, August 26, 2015 at 8:01:49 PM UTC-4, Electric Comet wrote:
i need to organize things and i want to make a shallow cabinet for the hand
tools

i thought that using a cleat would be the simplest wall mount to use

sometimes called a pinch cleat or a french cleat

but they are not earthquake ready and i could just blast a screw through
from the front through the cleat and into the wall but something about
that i just do not like

Why would you have to "blast" the screw into the wall? It only needs to go into the wall cleat to secure it. Besides, you will already have holes in the wall from mounting the cleat, what's one more hole from the securing screw going to matter?

I guess the real question is this: What is the "something" about that method that you "just do not like"?

...snip..

If you have room to slide the cabinet in from the side, use a "normal" cleat at the top and an "inverted" cleat at the bottom. Once slid into place, the cabinet won't go anywhere unless the room falls over.

On Thu, 27 Aug 2015 12:32:53 -0700 (PDT)
DerbyDad03 wrote:

Why would you have to "blast" the screw into the wall? It only needs
to go into the wall cleat to secure it. Besides, you will already
have holes in the wall from mounting the cleat, what's one more hole
from the securing screw going to matter?

it is sort of six of that and a half dozen of the other but my shop right now
is unorganized and i am trying to organize it but i will no doubt move the
tools around as i get to the workflow that i like

for those reasons i could have a lot of holes which is not a huge problem
but just would rather not


I guess the real question is this: What is the "something" about that
method that you "just do not like"?

so i would like to place the cleats and just pull out a peg from each end
of the cleat to remove the cabinet from the wall

If you have room to slide the cabinet in from the side, use a
"normal" cleat at the top and an "inverted" cleat at the bottom. Once
slid into place, the cabinet won't go anywhere unless the room falls
over.

now that is an idea
this could allow a totally flush mount

if the room falls over than i probably will have other things on my mind

On Thursday, August 27, 2015 at 7:09:45 PM UTC-4, Electric Comet wrote:
On Thu, 27 Aug 2015 12:32:53 -0700 (PDT)
DerbyDad03 wrote:

Why would you have to "blast" the screw into the wall? It only needs
to go into the wall cleat to secure it. Besides, you will already
have holes in the wall from mounting the cleat, what's one more hole
from the securing screw going to matter?

it is sort of six of that and a half dozen of the other but my shop right now
is unorganized and i am trying to organize it but i will no doubt move the
tools around as i get to the workflow that i like

for those reasons i could have a lot of holes which is not a huge problem
but just would rather not


I guess the real question is this: What is the "something" about that
method that you "just do not like"?

so i would like to place the cleats and just pull out a peg from each end
of the cleat to remove the cabinet from the wall

If you have room to slide the cabinet in from the side, use a
"normal" cleat at the top and an "inverted" cleat at the bottom. Once
slid into place, the cabinet won't go anywhere unless the room falls
over.

now that is an idea

....snip...

I was kind of hoping that that would be your response.

You are concerned with putting too many holes in your walls, yet you like an idea that requires a minimum of 4 holes better than one that only requires 2.

Interesting.

Electric Comet wrote:
On Thu, 27 Aug 2015 12:32:53 -0700 (PDT)
DerbyDad03 wrote:

I guess the real question is this: What is the "something" about that
method that you "just do not like"?

so i would like to place the cleats and just pull out a peg from each
end of the cleat to remove the cabinet from the wall

So what's stopping you from doing that?

On Thu, 27 Aug 2015 17:03:03 -0700 (PDT)
DerbyDad03 wrote:

You are concerned with putting too many holes in your walls, yet you
like an idea that requires a minimum of 4 holes better than one that
only requires 2.


imagine you have 4 shallow tool cabinets that are meant to be open most
the time

now imagine you hang them with cleats at top and bottom as you proposed

i can move them around without any additional screw/unscrew for securing
or removing

On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 06:03:16 -0400
"dadiOH" wrote:

So what's stopping you from doing that?

i am in no hurry
since it is long term getting alternative ideas is important

maybe someone has a clever or novel approach

how did you hang your cabinets
did you hang them permanently or did you consider that you might move
them around

or maybe you just have another workflow in your shop
some people like a rolling cart so they have everything at hand

Electric Comet wrote:
On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 06:03:16 -0400
"dadiOH" wrote:

So what's stopping you from doing that?

i am in no hurry
since it is long term getting alternative ideas is important

maybe someone has a clever or novel approach

how did you hang your cabinets
did you hang them permanently or did you consider that you might move
them around

Wall cabinets are fastened to the wall. I have no interest in moving them.

I have two 6' x 4' x 16" cabinets with interior and door shelves. The
shalves are moveable, cabinets are not.

I have a 6' x 2' x 37" table/cabinet. It has 12 drawers in which I keep
smallish hand tools...wrenches, saws, bits, screw drivers, chisels, planes,
etc. It is on casters so it can be moved. I have never done so in the last
15 years.

or maybe you just have another workflow in your shop
some people like a rolling cart so they have everything at hand

Most of my stationary power tools are on wheels, the exceptions being the
RAS and cabinet saw. The only reason they are on wheels is so I can pull
them out from the wall a bit if the need arises.

I have two 4' x 1' x 37" high tables on casters. I use them for
routing/planing/sanding/assembling/finishing things and as stock carts to
hold boards near a tool. There are a tray shelves at the bottom full of
pipe clamps, F-clamps, hand screws, C-clamps, etc. They roll but not
easily. Someday I'll rebuild them with larger casters.

FWIW and IME you are obsessing about a very simple thing. Little cabinets
full of hand tools are not going to go flying off a French cleat, earthquake
or not.

On Friday, August 28, 2015 at 11:44:19 AM UTC-4, Electric Comet wrote:
On Thu, 27 Aug 2015 17:03:03 -0700 (PDT)
DerbyDad03 wrote:

You are concerned with putting too many holes in your walls, yet you
like an idea that requires a minimum of 4 holes better than one that
only requires 2.


imagine you have 4 shallow tool cabinets that are meant to be open most
the time

now imagine you hang them with cleats at top and bottom as you proposed

i can move them around without any additional screw/unscrew for securing
or removing

Even though the double cleat was my idea, I don't mind poking holes (pun intended) in it.

Keep in mind that you will need open wall space to slide the cabinets on and off. Depending on your layout, you may need as much open wall space as cabinet space. Or maybe just one cabinet's width space so you could slide all of the cabinets off into that one open space and then slide them back on in a different order, i.e. multiple moves.

'Twere it me, I'd grab my screw gun, remove the single or maybe even 2 screws and just lift the cabinet off the single cleat. Is it worth wasting the wall space and/or having to move cabinets around more than actually necessary just to avoid the use of a couple of screws?

In my case, I don't have a single inch of open wall space available, let alone multiple cabinets width's worth.

On 8/28/2015 1:12 PM, dadiOH wrote:

FWIW and IME you are obsessing about a very simple thing. Little cabinets
full of hand tools are not going to go flying off a French cleat, earthquake
or not.

French cleats are designed to make it easy to remove the cabinet from
the wall. If you screw it down to make it "earthquake proof", then you
have no need to complicate things with a french cleat, just screw the
thing to the wall, as is normal.

If you have an earthquake that raises the cabinet up enough to jump off
the cleat, you probably will be worrying about far more than that
cabinet, but I'm guessing, I live in earthquake free zone:-)

If it's not uncommon for earthquakes in your area to jump up and down
1 1/4" or so, one screw in the bottom is sufficient to make sure the
cabinet and wall jump in unison, then all your worries can be focused on
the wall.


--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

Jack wrote:
On 8/28/2015 1:12 PM, dadiOH wrote:

FWIW and IME you are obsessing about a very simple thing. Little
cabinets full of hand tools are not going to go flying off a French
cleat, earthquake or not.

French cleats are designed to make it easy to remove the cabinet from
the wall. If you screw it down to make it "earthquake proof", then
you have no need to complicate things with a french cleat, just screw
the thing to the wall, as is normal.


That was my original thought - the two concepts are in opposition to each
other. Either you want mobility, or you want earthquak proof installations.
You can have both without defeating the purpose of each. This is a way
over-complicated discussion. The OP needs to decide what means most to him
and just do it.

--

-Mike-

On Thursday, September 3, 2015 at 10:27:47 AM UTC-4, Jack wrote:
On 8/28/2015 1:12 PM, dadiOH wrote:

FWIW and IME you are obsessing about a very simple thing. Little cabinets
full of hand tools are not going to go flying off a French cleat, earthquake
or not.

French cleats are designed to make it easy to remove the cabinet from
the wall. If you screw it down to make it "earthquake proof", then you
have no need to complicate things with a french cleat, just screw the
thing to the wall, as is normal.

If you have an earthquake that raises the cabinet up enough to jump off
the cleat, you probably will be worrying about far more than that
cabinet, but I'm guessing, I live in earthquake free zone:-)

If it's not uncommon for earthquakes in your area to jump up and down
1 1/4" or so, one screw in the bottom is sufficient to make sure the
cabinet and wall jump in unison, then all your worries can be focused on
the wall.



Standing up for EC, I'll offer this:

He wants to use cleats so that he can easily rearrange the cabinets as he
plays around with various organization ideas. He may start with a particular
arrangement this week but decide on a better one later on and then again on
another one a few months from now. In the meantime, Mr. Richter might pay a
visit and he wants to be able to welcome him into his shop safely.

EC is essentially looking for a temporary way to protect against the worst
case yet make it easy enough to rearrange the cabinets at various - and
unknown - points in the future.

As others have suggested, a single screw into a cleat should be enough to secure the cabinets yet allow for fairly easy movement.

Mike Marlow wrote:
Jack wrote:
On 8/28/2015 1:12 PM, dadiOH wrote:

FWIW and IME you are obsessing about a very simple thing. Little
cabinets full of hand tools are not going to go flying off a French
cleat, earthquake or not.

French cleats are designed to make it easy to remove the cabinet from
the wall. If you screw it down to make it "earthquake proof", then
you have no need to complicate things with a french cleat, just screw
the thing to the wall, as is normal.


That was my original thought - the two concepts are in opposition to
each other. Either you want mobility, or you want earthquak proof
installations. You can have both without defeating the purpose of
each. This is a way over-complicated discussion. The OP needs to
decide what means most to him and just do it.

Sorry - should have said You can't have both...

--

-Mike-

DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, September 3, 2015 at 10:27:47 AM UTC-4, Jack wrote:
On 8/28/2015 1:12 PM, dadiOH wrote:

FWIW and IME you are obsessing about a very simple thing. Little
cabinets full of hand tools are not going to go flying off a French
cleat, earthquake or not.

French cleats are designed to make it easy to remove the cabinet from
the wall. If you screw it down to make it "earthquake proof", then
you have no need to complicate things with a french cleat, just
screw the thing to the wall, as is normal.

If you have an earthquake that raises the cabinet up enough to jump
off the cleat, you probably will be worrying about far more than that
cabinet, but I'm guessing, I live in earthquake free zone:-)

If it's not uncommon for earthquakes in your area to jump up and down
1 1/4" or so, one screw in the bottom is sufficient to make sure
the cabinet and wall jump in unison, then all your worries can be
focused on the wall.



Standing up for EC, I'll offer this:

He wants to use cleats so that he can easily rearrange the cabinets
as he
plays around with various organization ideas. He may start with a
particular
arrangement this week but decide on a better one later on and then
again on
another one a few months from now. In the meantime, Mr. Richter might
pay a
visit and he wants to be able to welcome him into his shop safely.

EC is essentially looking for a temporary way to protect against the
worst
case yet make it easy enough to rearrange the cabinets at various -
and
unknown - points in the future.

As others have suggested, a single screw into a cleat should be
enough to secure the cabinets yet allow for fairly easy movement.

And in the end - even the most hard fastened approach does not present more
than a few minutes worth of effort to move about. The french cleat does not
really offer a huge amount of time saving. These are simply cabinets.
We're making too much rocket science out of a simple project. Happens here
from time to time...

--

-Mike-

On Thursday, September 3, 2015 at 11:44:43 AM UTC-4, Mike Marlow wrote:
Mike Marlow wrote:
Jack wrote:
On 8/28/2015 1:12 PM, dadiOH wrote:

FWIW and IME you are obsessing about a very simple thing. Little
cabinets full of hand tools are not going to go flying off a French
cleat, earthquake or not.

French cleats are designed to make it easy to remove the cabinet from
the wall. If you screw it down to make it "earthquake proof", then
you have no need to complicate things with a french cleat, just screw
the thing to the wall, as is normal.


That was my original thought - the two concepts are in opposition to
each other. Either you want mobility, or you want earthquak proof
installations. You can have both without defeating the purpose of
each. This is a way over-complicated discussion. The OP needs to
decide what means most to him and just do it.

Sorry - should have said You can't have both...

--

Sure you can, as long as you are willing to settle for somewhat less mobility as opposed to no mobility at all. The concept is not binary.

Slatwall-type systems are designed for versatility/mobility, yet you can purchase locking fixtures for security (and safety) purposes:

http://cdn.displays2go.com/downloada...tructions5.pdf

Slatwall-type systems are essentially nothing more than a "cleat" system.

On Thursday, September 3, 2015 at 11:49:14 AM UTC-4, Mike Marlow wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, September 3, 2015 at 10:27:47 AM UTC-4, Jack wrote:
On 8/28/2015 1:12 PM, dadiOH wrote:

FWIW and IME you are obsessing about a very simple thing. Little
cabinets full of hand tools are not going to go flying off a French
cleat, earthquake or not.

French cleats are designed to make it easy to remove the cabinet from
the wall. If you screw it down to make it "earthquake proof", then
you have no need to complicate things with a french cleat, just
screw the thing to the wall, as is normal.

If you have an earthquake that raises the cabinet up enough to jump
off the cleat, you probably will be worrying about far more than that
cabinet, but I'm guessing, I live in earthquake free zone:-)

If it's not uncommon for earthquakes in your area to jump up and down
1 1/4" or so, one screw in the bottom is sufficient to make sure
the cabinet and wall jump in unison, then all your worries can be
focused on the wall.



Standing up for EC, I'll offer this:

He wants to use cleats so that he can easily rearrange the cabinets
as he
plays around with various organization ideas. He may start with a
particular
arrangement this week but decide on a better one later on and then
again on
another one a few months from now. In the meantime, Mr. Richter might
pay a
visit and he wants to be able to welcome him into his shop safely.

EC is essentially looking for a temporary way to protect against the
worst
case yet make it easy enough to rearrange the cabinets at various -
and
unknown - points in the future.

As others have suggested, a single screw into a cleat should be
enough to secure the cabinets yet allow for fairly easy movement.

And in the end - even the most hard fastened approach does not present more
than a few minutes worth of effort to move about. The french cleat does not
really offer a huge amount of time saving. These are simply cabinets.
We're making too much rocket science out of a simple project. Happens here
from time to time...

--

If I was moving cabinets around in my shop, I'd sure rather remove 1 screw, lift the cabinet off the cleat, move it and reinstalled the single screw than try to remove all the screws holding the cabinet itself to the wall and then reinstall them. That is not typically a one man operation, unless I'm using bracing, etc.

A cleat and a screw doesn't even approach rocket science but it does provide for mobility as well as a certain measure of safety.

On 9/3/2015 10:59 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

A cleat and a screw doesn't even approach rocket science but it does provide for mobility as well as a certain measure of safety.

I often use French cleats for mounting cabinets, usually because of the
possibility of future mobility ... I wanted to be able to bring these
with me if I moved the shop:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...90529320 6226

scroll right

But sometimes, just for the added flexibility of being able to easily,
and more or less permanently, mount a cabinet in a precise location,
like perfectly centered when there are irregularly space studs and no
backer boards to screw them into.

.... like this one so I could easily center the cabinet above the desk
for aesthetics

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...57761199011954

Making a french cleat narrower than the cabinet can give you all kinds
of flexibility with regard to placement.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Thursday, September 3, 2015 at 3:02:26 PM UTC-4, Swingman wrote:
On 9/3/2015 10:59 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

A cleat and a screw doesn't even approach rocket science but it does provide for mobility as well as a certain measure of safety.

I often use French cleats for mounting cabinets, usually because of the
possibility of future mobility ... I wanted to be able to bring these
with me if I moved the shop:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...90529320 6226

scroll right

But sometimes, just for the added flexibility of being able to easily,
and more or less permanently, mount a cabinet in a precise location,
like perfectly centered when there are irregularly space studs and no
backer boards to screw them into.

... like this one so I could easily center the cabinet above the desk
for aesthetics

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...57761199011954

Making a french cleat narrower than the cabinet can give you all kinds
of flexibility with regard to placement.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

Nice pictures and cabinets.

I don't think there is any argument as to the versatility of using cleats, but there are some in this forum that seem to feel that adding a screw or 2 to the cleat as an "earthquake protection measure" defeats the entire purpose of the cleat. I believe that your second picture puts that argument to rest. Am I correct in assuming that the centered cabinet is screwed to the cleat to keep it in it's current position?

On 9/3/2015 2:14 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I don't think there is any argument as to the versatility of using cleats, but there are some in this forum that seem to feel that adding a screw or 2 to the cleat as an "earthquake protection measure" defeats the entire purpose of the cleat. I believe that your second picture puts that argument to rest. Am I correct in assuming that the centered cabinet is screwed to the cleat to keep it in it's current position?

Yes, that one is with a single screw to prevent lateral movement, and
the applied crown certainly keeps it from falling off in one of the 500
year Texas earthquakes.

As in all shown uses, if you do not want the cabinet to move, one or two
1 1/4" #8 woodscrews are all that is necessary, or a decorative,
contrasting dowel with/without a cap.

Location of same can be done for esthetics, as well as countersunk
and/or plugs if fit 'n finish is important.

All this is to SIMPLY and EASILY provide either a permanent, or
semi-permanent installation, simultaneously ... your choice.

99.99% non issue ... for the other .01%, the excessively anal are
welcome to spend their blessed little hearts out for countless other
cabinet hanging solutions.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

DerbyDad03 wrote:


I don't think there is any argument as to the versatility of using
cleats, but there are some in this forum that seem to feel that
adding a screw or 2 to the cleat as an "earthquake protection
measure" defeats the entire purpose of the cleat. I believe that your
second picture puts that argument to rest. Am I correct in assuming
that the centered cabinet is screwed to the cleat to keep it in it's
current position?

Not sure if you're making reference to my comments, but in case you are - I
can't see why anyone would want both mobility and the ability to secure it
against earthquakes at the same time.. That is indeed, two ideas that are
at odds with each other. Pick one, or the other.

--

-Mike-

DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, September 3, 2015 at 11:44:43 AM UTC-4, Mike Marlow
wrote:
Mike Marlow wrote:
Jack wrote:
On 8/28/2015 1:12 PM, dadiOH wrote:

FWIW and IME you are obsessing about a very simple thing. Little
cabinets full of hand tools are not going to go flying off a
French cleat, earthquake or not.

French cleats are designed to make it easy to remove the cabinet
from the wall. If you screw it down to make it "earthquake
proof", then you have no need to complicate things with a french
cleat, just screw the thing to the wall, as is normal.


That was my original thought - the two concepts are in opposition to
each other. Either you want mobility, or you want earthquak proof
installations. You can have both without defeating the purpose of
each. This is a way over-complicated discussion. The OP needs to
decide what means most to him and just do it.

Sorry - should have said You can't have both...

--

Sure you can, as long as you are willing to settle for somewhat less
mobility as opposed to no mobility at all. The concept is not binary.

Slatwall-type systems are designed for versatility/mobility, yet you
can purchase locking fixtures for security (and safety) purposes:

http://cdn.displays2go.com/downloada...tructions5.pdf

Slatwall-type systems are essentially nothing more than a "cleat"
system.

No - you can't. You will either end up with mobility, or you will end up
with a secured cabinet. Think about it. Like I said - this has become way
too complicated. I'm begining to think that the OP is really Bill, posting
under a different name.

--

-Mike-

On Thursday, September 3, 2015 at 6:50:44 PM UTC-4, Mike Marlow wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:


I don't think there is any argument as to the versatility of using
cleats, but there are some in this forum that seem to feel that
adding a screw or 2 to the cleat as an "earthquake protection
measure" defeats the entire purpose of the cleat. I believe that your
second picture puts that argument to rest. Am I correct in assuming
that the centered cabinet is screwed to the cleat to keep it in it's
current position?

Not sure if you're making reference to my comments, but in case you are - I
can't see why anyone would want both mobility and the ability to secure it
against earthquakes at the same time.. That is indeed, two ideas that are
at odds with each other.


Just like vehicle's transmission and brakes are at odds with each other. One supplies mobility when you want it, the other provides security against movement when you don't. Removing the security measure reinstates the mobility.

Pick one, or the other.

I do, over and over again, day after day.

Read Swingman's posts securing cabinets that are hung on cleats with screws or dowels. I quote:

"All this is to SIMPLY and EASILY provide either a permanent, or semi-permanent installation, simultaneously ... your choice. "

I'm really surprised that you feel that the addition of a single screw into a cleat somehow negates all of the other advantages of using them. All it takes is the removal of the "brakes" to re-establish mobility.

On 9/3/2015 2:02 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 9/3/2015 10:59 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

A cleat and a screw doesn't even approach rocket science but it does
provide for mobility as well as a certain measure of safety.

I often use French cleats for mounting cabinets, usually because of the
possibility of future mobility ... I wanted to be able to bring these
with me if I moved the shop:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...90529320 6226


scroll right

But sometimes, just for the added flexibility of being able to easily,
and more or less permanently, mount a cabinet in a precise location,
like perfectly centered when there are irregularly space studs and no
backer boards to screw them into.

... like this one so I could easily center the cabinet above the desk
for aesthetics

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...57761199011954


Making a french cleat narrower than the cabinet can give you all kinds
of flexibility with regard to placement.



Precisely how these floating walnut wall panels were mounted, french
cleats. I wanted to be able to remove them to run more hidden wiring
behind them.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...7630857421932/

The method and process of mounting parallel and evenly spaced.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/9658177806/

On 9/3/2015 9:27 AM, Jack wrote:
On 8/28/2015 1:12 PM, dadiOH wrote:

FWIW and IME you are obsessing about a very simple thing. Little
cabinets
full of hand tools are not going to go flying off a French cleat,
earthquake
or not.

French cleats are designed to make it easy to remove the cabinet from
the wall. If you screw it down to make it "earthquake proof", then you
have no need to complicate things with a french cleat, just screw the
thing to the wall, as is normal.

FWIW, It is many times easier to mount a french cleat on the wall and
hang a cabinet on the cleat and add a single screw to secure it than to
hold the cabinet up against the wall and level and at the correct height
while adding multiple screws and hopefully into something solid.

On 9/3/2015 10:38 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Jack wrote:
On 8/28/2015 1:12 PM, dadiOH wrote:

FWIW and IME you are obsessing about a very simple thing. Little
cabinets full of hand tools are not going to go flying off a French
cleat, earthquake or not.

French cleats are designed to make it easy to remove the cabinet from
the wall. If you screw it down to make it "earthquake proof", then
you have no need to complicate things with a french cleat, just screw
the thing to the wall, as is normal.


That was my original thought - the two concepts are in opposition to each
other. Either you want mobility, or you want earthquak proof installations.
You can have both without defeating the purpose of each. This is a way
over-complicated discussion. The OP needs to decide what means most to him
and just do it.



Actually it is a hell of a lot easier to mount a board, french cleat, on
the wall exactly where you want and hang the cabinet on that than to
mount a cabinet to the wall with or with out a ledger on the bottom.
Then add a screw to make it semi-permanent.

Mike Marlow wrote:
I'm begining to think that the OP is really Bill, posting under a
different name.
That was definitely uncalled for. Are you trolling me?

DerbyDad03 wrote:


I'm really surprised that you feel that the addition of a single
screw into a cleat somehow negates all of the other advantages of
using them. All it takes is the removal of the "brakes" to
re-establish mobility.

I guess my position has made me sound like I'm genuinely opposed to the
concept - I'm really not, in total. It's just that it seems to me that for
the amount of moving about that seems to be predictable, simply screwing
them in as one would normally do, does not create an undue level of effort
to move them. To each his own, though.

--

-Mike-

Leon wrote:
On 9/3/2015 10:38 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Jack wrote:
On 8/28/2015 1:12 PM, dadiOH wrote:

FWIW and IME you are obsessing about a very simple thing. Little
cabinets full of hand tools are not going to go flying off a French
cleat, earthquake or not.

French cleats are designed to make it easy to remove the cabinet
from the wall. If you screw it down to make it "earthquake proof",
then you have no need to complicate things with a french cleat,
just screw the thing to the wall, as is normal.


That was my original thought - the two concepts are in opposition to
each other. Either you want mobility, or you want earthquak proof
installations. You can have both without defeating the purpose of
each. This is a way over-complicated discussion. The OP needs to
decide what means most to him and just do it.



Actually it is a hell of a lot easier to mount a board, french cleat,
on the wall exactly where you want and hang the cabinet on that than
to mount a cabinet to the wall with or with out a ledger on the
bottom. Then add a screw to make it semi-permanent.

I agree. All of my cabinets are hung on a cleat for this very reason. My
reason had nothing to do with mobility, and I guess that's the part that I
was just not getting my head wrapped around. I guess I look at cabinets as
more of a permanent thing, and don't look at their installation with an eye
towards moving them about in the future.

--

-Mike-

In article , Leon
lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 9/3/2015 2:02 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 9/3/2015 10:59 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

A cleat and a screw doesn't even approach rocket science but it does
provide for mobility as well as a certain measure of safety.

I often use French cleats for mounting cabinets, usually because of the
possibility of future mobility ... I wanted to be able to bring these
with me if I moved the shop:


https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...trofit2011?nor
edirect=1#5603815905293206226


scroll right

But sometimes, just for the added flexibility of being able to easily,
and more or less permanently, mount a cabinet in a precise location,
like perfectly centered when there are irregularly space studs and no
backer boards to screw them into.

... like this one so I could easily center the cabinet above the desk
for aesthetics


https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...ickley708Style
WritingTable200402?noredirect=1#567935776119901195 4


Making a french cleat narrower than the cabinet can give you all kinds
of flexibility with regard to placement.



Precisely how these floating walnut wall panels were mounted, french
cleats. I wanted to be able to remove them to run more hidden wiring
behind them.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/10483001133/in/album-72157630857421932/

The method and process of mounting parallel and evenly spaced.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/9658177806/

What I've done for wall-mounted speakers is a pair of french cleats,
top and bottom, with opposing slanted faces. One removed the speakers
by sliding them sideways. They could not be removed by lifting them
off the cleats, so there was no possibility of accidentally knocking
them loose.

For cabinets, an interrupted opposing french cleat on the bottom would
allow the cabinet to be slid say six inches to one side, and then
removed.

The opposing bottom french cleat could be the underside of a standard
bottom french cleat board, so we would have two standard french cleats,
top and bottom, plus an upsidedown french cleat at the very bottom.

Joe Gwinn

On 9/3/2015 9:15 PM, Leon wrote:
On 9/3/2015 9:27 AM, Jack wrote:
On 8/28/2015 1:12 PM, dadiOH wrote:

French cleats are designed to make it easy to remove the cabinet from
the wall. If you screw it down to make it "earthquake proof", then you
have no need to complicate things with a french cleat, just screw the
thing to the wall, as is normal.

FWIW, It is many times easier to mount a french cleat on the wall and
hang a cabinet on the cleat and add a single screw to secure it than to
hold the cabinet up against the wall and level and at the correct height
while adding multiple screws and hopefully into something solid.

It's simple to hold the cabinet to the wall, exactly where you want it
and screw it into studs. It's how kitchen cabinets are hung all over
the world. French cleats require screwing into something solid just as
attaching the cabinet directly.

The french cleat adds measurement difficulty if you want the cabinet an
exact distance from the ceiling, in that both the wall cleat and the
cabinet cleat must be exactly right, not to mention you can't hang the
cabinet closer to the ceiling than needed to lift the cabinet over the
cleat, assuming you don't have space to slide the cabinet sideways,
seldom the case. Also, you need to attach 3 extra boards, two for the
cleat and one for the spacer, if your cabinets have backs.

Standard cabinet hanging techniques are about as simple as it gets. On
a scale of 1 to 10 I'd put hanging normal kitchen cabinets as 1 and
using french cleats as 1.3.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 9/10/2015 11:38 AM, Jack wrote:
On 9/3/2015 9:15 PM, Leon wrote:
On 9/3/2015 9:27 AM, Jack wrote:
On 8/28/2015 1:12 PM, dadiOH wrote:

French cleats are designed to make it easy to remove the cabinet from
the wall. If you screw it down to make it "earthquake proof", then you
have no need to complicate things with a french cleat, just screw the
thing to the wall, as is normal.

FWIW, It is many times easier to mount a french cleat on the wall and
hang a cabinet on the cleat and add a single screw to secure it than to
hold the cabinet up against the wall and level and at the correct height
while adding multiple screws and hopefully into something solid.

It's simple to hold the cabinet to the wall, exactly where you want it
and screw it into studs. It's how kitchen cabinets are hung all over
the world. French cleats require screwing into something solid just as
attaching the cabinet directly.

Well, simple to say but to do is another matter. I am not a full time
kitchen remodeler but I do have a few under my belt, 10 IIRC so that
probably 80 or 90 cabinets.
And while you are correct, most kitchen cabinets are simply hung on the
wall with out French cleats, they are generally mounted on top of
temporary ledger boards to hold them in place while the tops of the
cabinets are attached with screws/bolts to the blocking boards between
the wall studs.




The french cleat adds measurement difficulty if you want the cabinet an
exact distance from the ceiling, in that both the wall cleat and the
cabinet cleat must be exactly right,

Not really, simple math and that calculation pretty much works for all
of the cabinets unless the tops are not all the same.


not to mention you can't hang the
cabinet closer to the ceiling than needed to lift the cabinet over the
cleat, assuming you don't have space to slide the cabinet sideways,
seldom the case. Also, you need to attach 3 extra boards, two for the
cleat and one for the spacer, if your cabinets have backs.

Typically you don't mount the cabinet against the ceiling anyway, hardly
any ceiling is perfect and you don't want your cabinets to follow an
irregular ceiling. Leave a gap, 3/4 will be plenty and cover the
irregular width gap with a molding.




Standard cabinet hanging techniques are about as simple as it gets. On
a scale of 1 to 10 I'd put hanging normal kitchen cabinets as 1 and
using french cleats as 1.3.


Now while I have never used french cleats to hang kitchen cabinets, up
to this point, I will strongly consider using them should I have another
remodel come my way.

On 9/10/2015 11:38 AM, Jack wrote:

Also, you need to attach 3 extra boards, two for the cleat and one for
the spacer, if your cabinets have backs.

Easily solved.

Since almost all shop built cabinet have "tack strips" incorporated into
the cabinet for both structural integrity and mounting to a wall, all
you have to do is rip both tack strips in half on a 45 degree angle.

This instantly creates both halves of the french cleat, using the exact
same amount of material as the original cabinet:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...0 33686152210

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Thursday, September 10, 2015 at 3:34:27 PM UTC-4, Swingman wrote:
On 9/10/2015 11:38 AM, Jack wrote:

Also, you need to attach 3 extra boards, two for the cleat and one for
the spacer, if your cabinets have backs.

Easily solved.

Since almost all shop built cabinet have "tack strips" incorporated into
the cabinet for both structural integrity and mounting to a wall, all
you have to do is rip both tack strips in half on a 45 degree angle.

This instantly creates both halves of the french cleat, using the exact
same amount of material as the original cabinet:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...0 33686152210


Plus the cabinet itself is lighter. ;-)

On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 13:12:16 -0400
"dadiOH" wrote:

FWIW and IME you are obsessing about a very simple thing. Little

funny, not obsessing at all but apparently you are obsessing
that is known as projecting

cabinets full of hand tools are not going to go flying off a French
cleat, earthquake or not.

sure thing

On 9/10/2015 2:54 PM, Leon wrote:

It's simple to hold the cabinet to the wall, exactly where you want it
and screw it into studs. It's how kitchen cabinets are hung all over
the world. French cleats require screwing into something solid just as
attaching the cabinet directly.

Well, simple to say but to do is another matter. I am not a full time
kitchen remodeler but I do have a few under my belt, 10 IIRC so that
probably 80 or 90 cabinets.
And while you are correct, most kitchen cabinets are simply hung on the
wall with out French cleats, they are generally mounted on top of
temporary ledger boards to hold them in place while the tops of the
cabinets are attached with screws/bolts to the blocking boards between
the wall studs.

I have built and installed a number of kitchens myself, the easiest part
was hanging the cabinets. I've also done a number of cabinets with
French cleats, and the measurements were more difficult, so if you have
trouble measuring for wall studs, you will have even more trouble
measuring for wall studs and french cleats.

If french cleats were simpler, then kitchens across the world would be
hung via french cleats.

The french cleat adds measurement difficulty if you want the cabinet an
exact distance from the ceiling, in that both the wall cleat and the
cabinet cleat must be exactly right,

Not really, simple math and that calculation pretty much works for all
of the cabinets unless the tops are not all the same.

In the words of my favorite cabinet maker, "Well, simple to say but to
do is another matter." :-)


Standard cabinet hanging techniques are about as simple as it gets. On
a scale of 1 to 10 I'd put hanging normal kitchen cabinets as 1 and
using french cleats as 1.3.


Now while I have never used french cleats to hang kitchen cabinets, up
to this point, I will strongly consider using them should I have another
remodel come my way.

There is a reason you have installed 10 kitchens and not once used
french cleats. It's the same reason no one else uses them in kitchens,
it's not easier and there is no reason to make it more complicated for
no reason.

I suspect you won't use them next time either.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 9/12/2015 8:55 AM, Jack wrote:
On 9/10/2015 2:54 PM, Leon wrote:

It's simple to hold the cabinet to the wall, exactly where you want it
and screw it into studs. It's how kitchen cabinets are hung all over
the world. French cleats require screwing into something solid just as
attaching the cabinet directly.

Well, simple to say but to do is another matter. I am not a full time
kitchen remodeler but I do have a few under my belt, 10 IIRC so that
probably 80 or 90 cabinets.
And while you are correct, most kitchen cabinets are simply hung on the
wall with out French cleats, they are generally mounted on top of
temporary ledger boards to hold them in place while the tops of the
cabinets are attached with screws/bolts to the blocking boards between
the wall studs.

I have built and installed a number of kitchens myself, the easiest part
was hanging the cabinets. I've also done a number of cabinets with
French cleats, and the measurements were more difficult, so if you have
trouble measuring for wall studs, you will have even more trouble
measuring for wall studs and french cleats.

Typically you don't measure for wall studs. There should be blocking
behind between all of the studs. this is pretty much standard practice.
Either way wall studs are easily found with a stack of rare earth
magnets to locate sheet rock nails or with a good electronic stud finder.


If french cleats were simpler, then kitchens across the world would be
hung via french cleats.

Do you know that they are not?




The french cleat adds measurement difficulty if you want the cabinet an
exact distance from the ceiling, in that both the wall cleat and the
cabinet cleat must be exactly right,

Not really, simple math and that calculation pretty much works for all
of the cabinets unless the tops are not all the same.

In the words of my favorite cabinet maker, "Well, simple to say but to
do is another matter." :-)


Standard cabinet hanging techniques are about as simple as it gets. On
a scale of 1 to 10 I'd put hanging normal kitchen cabinets as 1 and
using french cleats as 1.3.


Now while I have never used french cleats to hang kitchen cabinets, up
to this point, I will strongly consider using them should I have another
remodel come my way.

There is a reason you have installed 10 kitchens and not once used
french cleats. It's the same reason no one else uses them in kitchens,
it's not easier and there is no reason to make it more complicated for
no reason.

The last kitchen job that was completely my kitchen job was 8~9 years
ago. I really had not thought of using french cleats up until that
point. The rest of the kitchens I was not the one in charge and I did
the work as instructed.


I suspect you won't use them next time either.

Time will tell.

On 9/12/2015 9:11 AM, Leon wrote:
On 9/12/2015 8:55 AM, Jack wrote:
On 9/10/2015 2:54 PM, Leon wrote:

It's simple to hold the cabinet to the wall, exactly where you want it
and screw it into studs. It's how kitchen cabinets are hung all over
the world. French cleats require screwing into something solid just as
attaching the cabinet directly.

Well, simple to say but to do is another matter. I am not a full time
kitchen remodeler but I do have a few under my belt, 10 IIRC so that
probably 80 or 90 cabinets.
And while you are correct, most kitchen cabinets are simply hung on the
wall with out French cleats, they are generally mounted on top of
temporary ledger boards to hold them in place while the tops of the
cabinets are attached with screws/bolts to the blocking boards between
the wall studs.

I have built and installed a number of kitchens myself, the easiest part
was hanging the cabinets. I've also done a number of cabinets with
French cleats, and the measurements were more difficult, so if you have
trouble measuring for wall studs, you will have even more trouble
measuring for wall studs and french cleats.

Typically you don't measure for wall studs. There should be blocking
behind between all of the studs. this is pretty much standard practice.
Either way wall studs are easily found with a stack of rare earth
magnets to locate sheet rock nails or with a good electronic stud finder.


If french cleats were simpler, then kitchens across the world would be
hung via french cleats.

Do you know that they are not?

And to add to that a bit, IIRC many homes in Europe do not include
kitchen cabinets. You bring your own and hang them when you move in and
you take them with you when you move out. I highly suspect that the
upper cabinets are hung on some type of cleat.

On 9/12/2015 8:55 AM, Jack wrote:

If french cleats were simpler, then kitchens across the world would be
hung via french cleats.

Most of the rest of the world has adopted the European 35mm cabinet system.

Guess what that system uses to hang cabinets ... a "Z" Bar.

AKA: French Cleat ...

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 9/12/2015 1:08 PM, Swingman wrote:
European 35mm cabinet system

Typo: 32mm, not 35mm

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

And made with fiber board that melts down when in high humidity.

If the sawdust board makers used a water proof resin or glue - it would
improve their product.

Martin

On 9/11/2015 10:17 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, September 10, 2015 at 3:34:27 PM UTC-4, Swingman wrote:
On 9/10/2015 11:38 AM, Jack wrote:

Also, you need to attach 3 extra boards, two for the cleat and one for
the spacer, if your cabinets have backs.

Easily solved.

Since almost all shop built cabinet have "tack strips" incorporated into
the cabinet for both structural integrity and mounting to a wall, all
you have to do is rip both tack strips in half on a 45 degree angle.

This instantly creates both halves of the french cleat, using the exact
same amount of material as the original cabinet:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...0 33686152210


Plus the cabinet itself is lighter. ;-)

On 9/12/2015 8:55 AM, Jack wrote:
On 9/10/2015 2:54 PM, Leon wrote:

If french cleats were simpler, then kitchens across the world would be
hung via french cleats.

Do you know that they are not?

Just a suspicion.

And to add to that a bit, IIRC many homes in Europe do not include
kitchen cabinets. You bring your own and hang them when you move in and
you take them with you when you move out. I highly suspect that the
upper cabinets are hung on some type of cleat.

OK then, I'll change that from "kitchens across the world" to kitchens
where the kitchen cabinets are not moving in and out with the homeowners.:-)

I hope when they decide to move, they move into a home with the same
kitchen size and design as the previous home.

Sounds ridiculous to me, crazy damned Europeans.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com