While I was confirming that Grainger has capacitor-start split-phase
motors in stock, I came upon this gem:

http://www.grainger.com/content/moto...e=CS_Banner-_-
General_Purpose_AC_Motors_L2-_-Motors_legislation_20150616

While "more efficiency" is a good thing, I find myself wondering how
much the average efficiency of small motors will actually be increased
by this, and what the side effects will be. Generally speaking
"increased efficiency" translates to "costs more up front" so I suspect
we can expect the prices of tools using "general purpose motors" to go
up.

Can the Chinese meet the new standards? If not then this might be a
defacto ban on Chinese motors, which would be good for American motor
manufacturers but also mean price increases on all sorts of things.

Then there's a little detail--"Run capacitor provides winding with
increased energy to help improve efficiency". I don't know if that's
specific to Dayton or if it's across the board--if so, if all new
general purpose motors are required to be capacitor-run, then we can
expect to have to replace those capacitors with some regularity.

On 7/31/2015 6:26 AM, J. Clarke wrote:

While I was confirming that Grainger has capacitor-start split-phase
motors in stock, I came upon this gem:

http://www.grainger.com/content/moto...e=CS_Banner-_-
General_Purpose_AC_Motors_L2-_-Motors_legislation_20150616

While "more efficiency" is a good thing, I find myself wondering how
much the average efficiency of small motors will actually be increased
by this, and what the side effects will be. Generally speaking
"increased efficiency" translates to "costs more up front" so I suspect
we can expect the prices of tools using "general purpose motors" to go
up.

Can the Chinese meet the new standards? If not then this might be a
defacto ban on Chinese motors, which would be good for American motor
manufacturers but also mean price increases on all sorts of things.

The Chinese are in outer space, why would they not be able to make such
a simple change to meet this standard?
I highly suspect that because the companies, like most any brand of tool
that is built there and sold here, dictate the specifications of the
product and that a simple change in the motor will not be any kind of
issue at all.


Then there's a little detail--"Run capacitor provides winding with
increased energy to help improve efficiency". I don't know if that's
specific to Dayton or if it's across the board--if so, if all new
general purpose motors are required to be capacitor-run, then we can
expect to have to replace those capacitors with some regularity.

In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 7/31/2015 6:26 AM, J. Clarke wrote:

While I was confirming that Grainger has capacitor-start split-phase
motors in stock, I came upon this gem:

http://www.grainger.com/content/moto...e=CS_Banner-_-
General_Purpose_AC_Motors_L2-_-Motors_legislation_20150616

While "more efficiency" is a good thing, I find myself wondering how
much the average efficiency of small motors will actually be increased
by this, and what the side effects will be. Generally speaking
"increased efficiency" translates to "costs more up front" so I suspect
we can expect the prices of tools using "general purpose motors" to go
up.

Can the Chinese meet the new standards? If not then this might be a
defacto ban on Chinese motors, which would be good for American motor
manufacturers but also mean price increases on all sorts of things.

The Chinese are in outer space, why would they not be able to make such
a simple change to meet this standard?

The same reason they don't seem to be able to keep lead out of toys?

I highly suspect that because the companies, like most any brand of tool
that is built there and sold here, dictate the specifications of the
product and that a simple change in the motor will not be any kind of
issue at all.

On 7/31/2015 10:32 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 7/31/2015 6:26 AM, J. Clarke wrote:

While I was confirming that Grainger has capacitor-start split-phase
motors in stock, I came upon this gem:

http://www.grainger.com/content/moto...e=CS_Banner-_-
General_Purpose_AC_Motors_L2-_-Motors_legislation_20150616

While "more efficiency" is a good thing, I find myself wondering how
much the average efficiency of small motors will actually be increased
by this, and what the side effects will be. Generally speaking
"increased efficiency" translates to "costs more up front" so I suspect
we can expect the prices of tools using "general purpose motors" to go
up.

Can the Chinese meet the new standards? If not then this might be a
defacto ban on Chinese motors, which would be good for American motor
manufacturers but also mean price increases on all sorts of things.

The Chinese are in outer space, why would they not be able to make such
a simple change to meet this standard?

The same reason they don't seem to be able to keep lead out of toys?

Well they would if the importers specified that. We get from China what
our importers specify. If we leave the specifications of the paint up
to the manufacturer, regardless of where the manufacturer is, they are
going to use what they want and that is typically going to be the cheapest.





I highly suspect that because the companies, like most any brand of tool
that is built there and sold here, dictate the specifications of the
product and that a simple change in the motor will not be any kind of
issue at all.

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 7/31/2015 10:32 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 7/31/2015 6:26 AM, J. Clarke wrote:

Can the Chinese meet the new standards?

The Chinese are in outer space, why would they not be able to make
such a simple change to meet this standard?

The same reason they don't seem to be able to keep lead out of toys?

Well they would if the importers specified that. We get from China
what our importers specify. If we leave the specifications of the
paint up to the manufacturer, regardless of where the manufacturer is,
they are going to use what they want and that is typically going to be
the cheapest.

It's less a case of the importers not specifying, as it is
the importers being unable or unwilling to verify their
specs are met. The Chinese know that most of what they make
isn't tested for compliance, and a lot of them are willing
to take a chance on using whatever's cheap, whether it mets
spec or not.

This is a bigger problem for the Chinese than us, tho. We
get an infinitesimal amount of lead in some toys. They get
melamine in baby formula.

John

On 7/31/2015 12:38 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 7/31/2015 10:32 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 7/31/2015 6:26 AM, J. Clarke wrote:

Can the Chinese meet the new standards?

The Chinese are in outer space, why would they not be able to make
such a simple change to meet this standard?

The same reason they don't seem to be able to keep lead out of toys?

Well they would if the importers specified that. We get from China
what our importers specify. If we leave the specifications of the
paint up to the manufacturer, regardless of where the manufacturer is,
they are going to use what they want and that is typically going to be
the cheapest.

It's less a case of the importers not specifying, as it is
the importers being unable or unwilling to verify their
specs are met. The Chinese know that most of what they make
isn't tested for compliance, and a lot of them are willing
to take a chance on using whatever's cheap, whether it mets
spec or not.

Which is business 101 for any company anywhere. If no specifications
are requested they use what it takes to get the bid. China offers cheap
labor and importers go for that. If the truth were to be known the air
quality from off gassing of products at the Harbor Freight stores might
be more dangerous than eating lead. ;~)


This is a bigger problem for the Chinese than us, tho. We
get an infinitesimal amount of lead in some toys. They get
melamine in baby formula.

We get defective air bags from Japan. Countless recalls on tainted
meats and vegetables. Thank you Blue Bell.

On Fri, 31 Jul 2015 07:26:11 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:


While I was confirming that Grainger has capacitor-start split-phase
motors in stock, I came upon this gem:

http://www.grainger.com/content/moto...e=CS_Banner-_-
General_Purpose_AC_Motors_L2-_-Motors_legislation_20150616

While "more efficiency" is a good thing, I find myself wondering how
much the average efficiency of small motors will actually be increased
by this, and what the side effects will be. Generally speaking
"increased efficiency" translates to "costs more up front" so I suspect
we can expect the prices of tools using "general purpose motors" to go
up.

Can the Chinese meet the new standards? If not then this might be a
defacto ban on Chinese motors, which would be good for American motor
manufacturers but also mean price increases on all sorts of things.

Then there's a little detail--"Run capacitor provides winding with
increased energy to help improve efficiency". I don't know if that's
specific to Dayton or if it's across the board--if so, if all new
general purpose motors are required to be capacitor-run, then we can
expect to have to replace those capacitors with some regularity.

So to have the inductance of the motor balanced by capacitance and it
is high efficiency motor. This has been the case in "high efficiency
appliances" or Energy Star ones.

"J. Clarke" wrote in
:


While I was confirming that Grainger has capacitor-start split-phase
motors in stock,

LOL.

While "more efficiency" is a good thing, I find myself wondering how
much the average efficiency of small motors will actually be increased
by this, and what the side effects will be.

I beleive the expectation is to go from ~75% efficient (mechanical
power out / electrical power in) to ~80%.

Generally speaking
"increased efficiency" translates to "costs more up front" so I
suspect we can expect the prices of tools using "general purpose
motors" to go up.

That is likely to be the case, since a big part of improving
efficiency is reducing resistive losses, and the way to do
that is thicker copper wiring.

Another issue is that the higher efficiency motors are likely
to be larger than the current ones, so manufacturers may have
to redesign their mountings. (which may also be a problem for
anyone replacing a bad motor in an older tool).

Then there's a little detail--"Run capacitor provides winding with
increased energy to help improve efficiency". I don't know if that's
specific to Dayton or if it's across the board--if so, if all new
general purpose motors are required to be capacitor-run, then we can
expect to have to replace those capacitors with some regularity.

Probably across the board. A run capacitor improves the motor's
power factor, which reduces resistive losses. So it's a big
help in improving efficiency.

Note that improving efficiency means less electrical energy is
lost as heat, so capacitor lifetime may improve.

BTW, before a political debate starts on this, it should be
noted that the legislation requiring the high efficiency
motors dates to the GW Bush administration.

John

On Fri, 31 Jul 2015 07:26:11 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:


While I was confirming that Grainger has capacitor-start split-phase
motors in stock, I came upon this gem:

http://www.grainger.com/content/moto...e=CS_Banner-_-
General_Purpose_AC_Motors_L2-_-Motors_legislation_20150616

While "more efficiency" is a good thing, I find myself wondering how
much the average efficiency of small motors will actually be increased
by this, and what the side effects will be. Generally speaking
"increased efficiency" translates to "costs more up front" so I suspect
we can expect the prices of tools using "general purpose motors" to go
up.

In general, all it takes for higher efficiency is more copper and
iron. This isn't anything new and is just a matter of cost. For
something like a power tool, it's a complete waste of money (but it's
the government's job, anymore, to spend other people's money).

Can the Chinese meet the new standards? If not then this might be a
defacto ban on Chinese motors, which would be good for American motor
manufacturers but also mean price increases on all sorts of things.

Why would they have a problem. High-efficiency motors have been with
us pretty much since motors were invented. It's all a matter of
trading off cost and weight vs. efficiency.

Then there's a little detail--"Run capacitor provides winding with
increased energy to help improve efficiency". I don't know if that's
specific to Dayton or if it's across the board--if so, if all new
general purpose motors are required to be capacitor-run, then we can
expect to have to replace those capacitors with some regularity.

Capacitor life is more about temperature than anything else. Higher
efficiency should help.

"J. Clarke" wrote:

While I was confirming that Grainger has capacitor-start split-phase
motors in stock, I came upon this gem:
--------------------------------------------------------
Have a model number, price and availability?

Lew

In article om,
says...

"J. Clarke" wrote:

While I was confirming that Grainger has capacitor-start split-phase
motors in stock, I came upon this gem:
--------------------------------------------------------
Have a model number, price and availability?

5K922, 363.50, if ordered now expected to arrive August 4.

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
In article om,
says...

"J. Clarke" wrote:

While I was confirming that Grainger has capacitor-start
split-phase
motors in stock, I came upon this gem:
--------------------------------------------------------
Have a model number, price and availability?

5K922, 363.50, if ordered now expected to arrive August 4.
------------------------------------------------------------
Grainger description:

General Purpose Motor1 HPCapacitor-Start, 1725 Nameplate RPM,
Voltage 115/208-230, Frame 56
-----------------------------------------------------------
Capacitor-Start is not split phase.

Nice try but no cigar.

Lew

In article om,
says...

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
In article om,
says...

"J. Clarke" wrote:

While I was confirming that Grainger has capacitor-start
split-phase
motors in stock, I came upon this gem:
--------------------------------------------------------
Have a model number, price and availability?

5K922, 363.50, if ordered now expected to arrive August 4.
------------------------------------------------------------
Grainger description:

General Purpose Motor1 HPCapacitor-Start, 1725 Nameplate RPM,
Voltage 115/208-230, Frame 56
-----------------------------------------------------------
Capacitor-Start is not split phase.

Nice try but no cigar.

Lew

Yes, Cigar, Lew. The trouble is you wouldn't know a cigar if it beat
you over the head with a titanium cluebat.

Do you _try_ to annoy people with this kind of pretend-ignorance?

Lew Hodgett wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
In article om,
says...

"J. Clarke" wrote:

While I was confirming that Grainger has capacitor-start
split-phase
motors in stock, I came upon this gem:
--------------------------------------------------------
Have a model number, price and availability?

5K922, 363.50, if ordered now expected to arrive August 4.
------------------------------------------------------------
Grainger description:

General Purpose Motor1 HPCapacitor-Start, 1725 Nameplate RPM,
Voltage 115/208-230, Frame 56
-----------------------------------------------------------
Capacitor-Start is not split phase.

Nice try but no cigar.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_mot...it-phase_motor

--

-Mike-

In article ,
says...

Lew Hodgett wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
In article om,
says...

"J. Clarke" wrote:

While I was confirming that Grainger has capacitor-start
split-phase
motors in stock, I came upon this gem:
--------------------------------------------------------
Have a model number, price and availability?

5K922, 363.50, if ordered now expected to arrive August 4.
------------------------------------------------------------
Grainger description:

General Purpose Motor1 HPCapacitor-Start, 1725 Nameplate RPM,
Voltage 115/208-230, Frame 56
-----------------------------------------------------------
Capacitor-Start is not split phase.

Nice try but no cigar.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_mot...it-phase_motor

Lew has been told this over and over again and he insists on swimming
with the crocodiles.

On Sun, 2 Aug 2015 17:53:29 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:


"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
In article om,
says...

"J. Clarke" wrote:

While I was confirming that Grainger has capacitor-start
split-phase
motors in stock, I came upon this gem:
--------------------------------------------------------
Have a model number, price and availability?

5K922, 363.50, if ordered now expected to arrive August 4.
------------------------------------------------------------
Grainger description:

General Purpose Motor1 HPCapacitor-Start, 1725 Nameplate RPM,
Voltage 115/208-230, Frame 56
-----------------------------------------------------------
Capacitor-Start is not split phase.

A capacitor-start motor most certainly is a split-phase motor but the
reverse is not necessarily true. That's exactly what the capacitor is
for (to split the phases). The phase split can be done with resistance
or capacitance.

Nice try but no cigar.

You're wrong.