Hi,I recently found some nice reclaimed wood (Floor joists from the Charlestown Armory in Boston) that I want to make into a dining table like this:

https://drive.google.com/a/jimryan.c...&usp=sha ring

I ran one of the pieces of lumber through my planer and it appears to look like Douglas Fir, so it is a bit reddish in tone. The wood is ~14" wide, 2" thick, and ~7 foot long I have 4 of them. The table is planned to be 3' x 7'. I plan to to plane each of the boards on both sides so the surface is flat. But the person I am making it for wants that look like in the picture above. So I'm not really sure how to treat it when I'm done putting it together. I also am now sure what to do with the legs, aprons and other pieces below. I'm not sure if I need to search for more reclaimed lumber or just find some more Douglas Fir at a lumber yard and treat it somehow to make it look old.

Thank you for any thoughts.

Jim

On Sunday, July 5, 2015 at 11:23:07 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Hi,I recently found some nice reclaimed wood (Floor joists from the Charlestown Armory in Boston) that I want to make into a dining table like this:

https://drive.google.com/a/jimryan.c...&usp=sha ring

I ran one of the pieces of lumber through my planer and it appears to look like Douglas Fir, so it is a bit reddish in tone. The wood is ~14" wide, 2" thick, and ~7 foot long I have 4 of them. The table is planned to be 3' x 7'. I plan to to plane each of the boards on both sides so the surface is flat. But the person I am making it for wants that look like in the picture above. So I'm not really sure how to treat it when I'm done putting it together. I also am now sure what to do with the legs, aprons and other pieces below. I'm not sure if I need to search for more reclaimed lumber or just find some more Douglas Fir at a lumber yard and treat it somehow to make it look old.

Thank you for any thoughts.

Jim

I needed permission to view the pic. I clicked the request tab.

Any relation to Michael (Mike) Ryan (You dog!), who attended Uni. of Idaho (Moscow) in 1973-74, and maybe '75 & '76? He was my (dorm) room mate. We lost touch, sometime after I left Idaho.

Sonny

On Sunday, July 5, 2015 at 12:34:29 PM UTC-4, Sonny wrote:
On Sunday, July 5, 2015 at 11:23:07 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Hi,I recently found some nice reclaimed wood (Floor joists from the Charlestown Armory in Boston) that I want to make into a dining table like this:

https://drive.google.com/a/jimryan.c...&usp=sha ring

I ran one of the pieces of lumber through my planer and it appears to look like Douglas Fir, so it is a bit reddish in tone. The wood is ~14" wide, 2" thick, and ~7 foot long I have 4 of them. The table is planned to be 3' x 7'. I plan to to plane each of the boards on both sides so the surface is flat. But the person I am making it for wants that look like in the picture above. So I'm not really sure how to treat it when I'm done putting it together. I also am now sure what to do with the legs, aprons and other pieces below. I'm not sure if I need to search for more reclaimed lumber or just find some more Douglas Fir at a lumber yard and treat it somehow to make it look old.

Thank you for any thoughts.

Jim

I needed permission to view the pic. I clicked the request tab.

Any relation to Michael (Mike) Ryan (You dog!), who attended Uni. of Idaho (Moscow) in 1973-74, and maybe '75 & '76? He was my (dorm) room mate. We lost touch, sometime after I left Idaho.

Sonny

I reset the link so no permission is needed, and I granted you permission as well.

No, sorry, to my knowledge I don't know Michael Ryan. Leave it to an Irishman to go to school in Idaho. They just can't get away from potatoes.

On 07/05/2015 11:23 AM, wrote:
Hi,I recently found some nice reclaimed wood (Floor joists from the
Charlestown Armory in Boston) that I want to make into a dining
table like this:
....

I ran one of the pieces of lumber through my planer and it appears
to look like Douglas Fir, ...

It is _not_ Doug Fir; show a clean crosscut to show some end grain but
I'm virtually certain it's SYP (southern yellow pine).

--

dpb wrote in :

On 07/05/2015 11:23 AM, wrote:
Hi,I recently found some nice reclaimed wood (Floor joists from the
Charlestown Armory in Boston) that I want to make into a dining
table like this:
...

I ran one of the pieces of lumber through my planer and it appears
to look like Douglas Fir, ...

It is _not_ Doug Fir; show a clean crosscut to show some end grain but
I'm virtually certain it's SYP (southern yellow pine).

There was a huge trade in southern yellow pine from the southern
states to the New England states in the years between the Civil
War and World War I. It was the preferred material for building
and similar purposes (ships, etc) during that time.

If you see a picture of a sailing schooner (a "down easter"),
you can be pretty certain the cargo is either coal or southern
yellow pine - two commodities that needed to ship cheapest way
possible, and no-one particularly cared when they got there.

John

On Sunday, July 5, 2015 at 2:48:41 PM UTC-5, wrote:

Looks very similar to cypress: color, grain, the knots, the small checks along the center line. Cypress is a relatively soft (density) wood.

I ran one of the pieces of lumber through my planer ....

Did it smell like or have a hint of a smell of turpentine, once planed? Freshly cut pine will have a smell, or at least a slight smell, of turpentine, even with old lumber.



But the person I am making it for wants that look like in the picture above.

That (last) pic, of a completed table, is SYP. I would never install a bread board on a thick slabbed table top. I suggest you discuss, with the owner, not using a bread board on the proposed table top. That design aspect would cheapen a nice old salvaged thick-plank table top. Use the fourth board for a wider tabletop or use the fourth board for the skirt ~~~ it would match the tabletop. Re the pic: That wide of bread board looks bad, awkward, not right, also. A plank table top should not need a bread board. If expansion-contraction is going to be suspect, then use dutchmans, under neath if need be.

The end grains will absorb more stain, so if you stain, try to do some testing on any cut-offs, for end grain staining. Personally, I wouldn't stain anything. I'd simply clearcoat the table, once prepped.

As long as the table top results are pristine, then it doesn't matter what kind of base you build right now (for use by the owner). The table top is the most important part, to get right and be perfect, to look and be its best. A different base can always be built, later, if need be. Re that pictured table base is basic. Look for a better design and better wood, if time permits. 4X and 2X framing stock is not the greatest lumber for a dining table base.

Sonny

On Sunday, July 5, 2015 at 4:18:59 PM UTC-5, dpb wrote:

It is _not_ Doug Fir; show a clean crosscut to show some end grain but
I'm virtually certain it's SYP (southern yellow pine).

Hmmmm, I'm leaning toward your assuredness. That test staining and clearcoat/wetted(?) sample looks splotchy. Splotchy results are more in tune for SYP, than cypress, but the planks still look a heck of a lot like cypress, to me. Cypress was also shipped, in bulk, to northern states. My salvaged pine planks don't look like his planks, especially with those small checks down the center line of his planks.

Agreed. End grain photos would be nice.
Bald Cypress - http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/person...ss,%20bald.htm

YP - http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/person...,%20yellow.htm

Sonny

wrote in message
...

Hi,I recently found some nice reclaimed wood (Floor joists from the
Charlestown Armory in Boston) that I want to make into a dining table like
this:

https://drive.google.com/a/jimryan.c...&usp=sha ring

I ran one of the pieces of lumber through my planer and it appears to look
like Douglas Fir, so it is a bit reddish in tone. The wood is ~14" wide,
2" thick, and ~7 foot long I have 4 of
them. The table is planned to be 3' x 7'. I plan to to plane each of the
boards on both sides so the surface is flat. But the person I am making it
for wants that look like in the picture above. So I'm not really sure how
to treat it when I'm done putting it together. I also am now sure what to
do with the legs, aprons and other pieces below. I'm not sure if I need to
search for more reclaimed lumber or just find some more Douglas Fir at a
lumber yard and treat it somehow to make it look old.

You might try 3-4 coats of dark brown paste wax as a finish.... yes it would
need to be refreshed over time but it would likely give that non-uniform
look. A wax finish was common on relatively rustic furniture in past
centuries... (i.e., not fine furniture).

If you skip the bread board ends you could resaw the 4th board and use it to
veneer glued up pine to create the legs and stretchers. By tennoning the
long stretcher and putting it into a mortise, instead of having it lap over
the short stretchers, you would hide all the ends. By doing this all the
wood in the table would match, it would take the finish the same, and it
would save you from having to match "new" wood to "old" wood.

John

On 07/05/2015 5:50 PM, Sonny wrote:
On Sunday, July 5, 2015 at 4:18:59 PM UTC-5, dpb wrote:

It is _not_ Doug Fir; show a clean crosscut to show some end grain but
I'm virtually certain it's SYP (southern yellow pine).

Hmmmm, I'm leaning toward your assuredness. That test staining and
clearcoat/wetted(?) sample looks splotchy. Splotchy results are more in
tune for SYP, than cypress, but the planks still look a heck of a lot
like cypress, to me. Cypress was also shipped, in bulk, to northern
states. My salvaged pine planks don't look like his planks, especially
with those small checks down the center line of his planks.
....

I've quite a lot of old SYP that has checked; probably as much that
hasn't. All depends on how it was dried and these were probably full 2"
and 14" wide for construction, not finish, so likely weren't dried to
full end result initially.

It doesn't look much like cypress at all to me...but the telltale end
grain could be the conclusive piece of evidence.

But, one think it _isn't_ is Doug fir...

--

One way to tell is weight. SYP is a heavier than either cypress or Douglas Fir. Also, as Sonny mentioned, sand a bit of it and see if you get the "pine smell." The fir will not smell and the cypress has a much more subtle odor.

Deb

Sonny wrote in
:

Hmmmm, I'm leaning toward your assuredness. That test staining and
clearcoat/wetted(?) sample looks splotchy. Splotchy results are more
in tune for SYP, than cypress, but the planks still look a heck of a
lot like cypress, to me. Cypress was also shipped, in bulk, to
northern states. My salvaged pine planks don't look like his planks,
especially with those small checks down the center line of his planks.

OP said the reclaimed timbers were floor joists. I'm dubious
about cypress being used for that kind of structural application,
it was more commonly used for siding and shingles. SYP fits
the application a lot better.

John

On Monday, July 6, 2015 at 12:35:38 PM UTC-4, John McCoy wrote:
Sonny wrote in
:

Hmmmm, I'm leaning toward your assuredness. That test staining and
clearcoat/wetted(?) sample looks splotchy. Splotchy results are more
in tune for SYP, than cypress, but the planks still look a heck of a
lot like cypress, to me. Cypress was also shipped, in bulk, to
northern states. My salvaged pine planks don't look like his planks,
especially with those small checks down the center line of his planks.

OP said the reclaimed timbers were floor joists. I'm dubious
about cypress being used for that kind of structural application,
it was more commonly used for siding and shingles. SYP fits
the application a lot better.

John

Thank you all for some great advice. I'll try to put some end grain shots up there today or tomorrow.

On Monday, July 6, 2015 at 11:35:38 AM UTC-5, John McCoy wrote:

OP said the reclaimed timbers were floor joists. I'm dubious
about cypress being used for that kind of structural application,
it was more commonly used for siding and shingles. SYP fits
the application a lot better.

John

That's incorrect. You can't think in terms of today's usage. Think in terms of what was going on back then, in the 1700s, 1800s, & even into the early 1900s, to some extent.

Cypress was widely use for framing in all parts of homes and many other buildings, probably just as much as pine. Actually, SYP wasn't the top pine choice, back then. It was long leaf pine, not SYP, that was the premium pine lumber and most widely sought after and used. Once all the premium pine was logged, the poorer quality pines, like the yellow pines, were used. Poorer quality yellow pine grew faster, in order to replace the premiums, hence, just about all that remains, since the early 1900s, is the poorer quality yellow pines, i.e., those that we are most familiar with, today. We can't apply today's rationale to the events and circumstances of long ago..

SYP was/is a magnet for termites, powder post beetles and other insects, despite having a turpentine content. That old cypress was used because its very much more resistance to insects, very resistance to rotting and it is structurally sound for that framing use.

His boards don't look quite like long leaf pine, either, but they just might be.

Down south, today, salvaged old cypress and salvaged long leaf pine are premium "decor" lumbers for many applications, rather than being as commonly used utility-wise or structural-wise, as long ago.

For one test, he needs to smell that planed surface, to see if it has an odor of turpentine. If it's pine, he should have gotten a distinct whiff of the turpentine scent, when planing, without having to go back, now, and sniff the planed surface.

I don't know if the western varieties of pine have the turpentine scent. Just about all the eastern/south eastern pines do have the scent.

Sonny

On Monday, July 6, 2015 at 12:50:00 PM UTC-5, wrote:


Thank you all for some great advice. I'll try to put some end grain shots up there today or tomorrow.

Google search for images of long leaf pine dining tables.
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C...otZ Y7N-BM%3A

Click on pics of interest, for ideas for your table's design, like maybe the base of this table: http://mecox.com/product/extraordina...e-dining-table
Seems to be simple & easy geometry, probably with mortise & tenon jointery, and still looks elegant. This is a very heavy table, though.... wouldn't be moved very often, if at all.

No matter what the lumber is, you probably have some very good lumber. Any old nice salvaged lumber is premium, IMO, so strive for the best design possible and do your best work possible. Don't rush and don't skimp. And show us some
finished pics, also.

Sonny

On 07/06/2015 12:53 PM, Sonny wrote:
On Monday, July 6, 2015 at 11:35:38 AM UTC-5, John McCoy wrote:

OP said the reclaimed timbers were floor joists. I'm dubious
about cypress being used for that kind of structural application,
it was more commonly used for siding and shingles. SYP fits
the application a lot better.

John

That's incorrect. You can't think in terms of today's usage. Think
in terms of what was going on back then, in the 1700s, 1800s,& even
into the early 1900s, to some extent.

You're getting a little carried away here, Sonny.

Looking it up the Armory wasn't built until 1907 by which time
commercial framing lumber was pretty much commonplace.

The barn out here in SW KS built just after rationing was lifted
following armistice of WWI (Nov 1918) was only some 10 year later and
it's all SYP looking very much like OP's samples.

The very first glance of the first planed piece made me initially think
it was a red oak given the two-hued shades with the distinctive sap wood
to the edges at the right end of the plank but on further looking
there's no indication of the typical oak porosity and the appearance of
the medullary rays are just so distinctive is why I'm pretty sure...

--

On Sunday, July 5, 2015 at 12:23:07 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Hi,I recently found some nice reclaimed wood (Floor joists from the Charlestown Armory in Boston) that I want to make into a dining table like this:

https://drive.google.com/a/jimryan.c...&usp=sha ring

I ran one of the pieces of lumber through my planer and it appears to look like Douglas Fir, so it is a bit reddish in tone. The wood is ~14" wide, 2" thick, and ~7 foot long I have 4 of them. The table is planned to be 3' x 7'. I plan to to plane each of the boards on both sides so the surface is flat. But the person I am making it for wants that look like in the picture above. So I'm not really sure how to treat it when I'm done putting it together. I also am now sure what to do with the legs, aprons and other pieces below. I'm not sure if I need to search for more reclaimed lumber or just find some more Douglas Fir at a lumber yard and treat it somehow to make it look old.

Thank you for any thoughts.

Jim

Ok, I posted the pics of the end grain. This is really proving to be very educational for me so thanks. I don't think they are Oak, that's one of the woods I recognize pretty reliably, and this doesn't look like it. Oh, I also had a go with some dark brown Briwax and was very happy with it. So the colors on it are stain, Was over shellac, wax alone.

Jim

On 07/06/2015 3:38 PM, wrote:
....

Ok, I posted the pics of the end grain. This is really proving to be
very educational for me so thanks. I don't think they are Oak, that's
one of the woods I recognize pretty reliably, and this doesn't look like
it. ...


Ay-up, that there's SYP fer shure...

I was certain after a second look it wasn't oak too altho the overall
two-hues of the one piece are consistent with the heartwood/sapwood one
often sees. But, as noted earlier as soon as looked at a closer look
the porosity isn't there and you can clearly also see with the end grain
wrong cell structure.

--

Sonny wrote in
:

Actually, SYP wasn't
the top pine choice, back then. It was long leaf pine, not SYP, that
was the premium pine lumber and most widely sought after and used.
Once all the premium pine was logged, the poorer quality pines, like
the yellow pines, were used.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I'd always heard of longleaf as being
a yellow pine. Longleaf, loblolly, slash, and one other I'm
forgetting where the southern yellow pines. Now-a-days most
of what you get is slash pine, because it grows faster. Not
really sure when the old growth was logged out, but I think
it would have been in the WW1 timeframe.

I'll grant you, the northern and western white pines were
superior lumber, especially for purposes other than construction.

John

On 07/06/2015 4:41 PM, John McCoy wrote:
wrote in
:

Actually, SYP wasn't
the top pine choice, back then. It was long leaf pine, not SYP, that
was the premium pine lumber and most widely sought after and used.
Once all the premium pine was logged, the poorer quality pines, like
the yellow pines, were used.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I'd always heard of longleaf as being
a yellow pine. Longleaf, loblolly, slash, and one other I'm
forgetting where the southern yellow pines. Now-a-days most
of what you get is slash pine, because it grows faster. Not
really sure when the old growth was logged out, but I think
it would have been in the WW1 timeframe.
....

You're not mistaken at all...from the US Forest Products Lab Tech Note
on SYP--

The collective term "southern yellow pine" or "southern pine" includes
principally longleaf, short-leaf, loblolly, and slash poines growing in
the Southern States from Virginia to Texas. When cut into lunber these
species cannotbe distinguished one from another, except in the case of
longleaf pine which can as a rule be distinguished from shortleaf and
loblolly pines if the pith is present."

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&u act=8&ved=0CC4QFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fpl.fs.fe d.us%2Fdocumnts%2Ffpltn%2Ffpltn-214-1936.pdf&ei=5wqbVcG0DoO5yQTc24Qg&usg=AFQjCNHL8D_AB dF3cZ8rpTy5in78HIGaPQ&sig2=QFoH_W2xCBqidWfyw56zSg& bvm=bv.96952980,d.aWw

--

wrote in message
...

On Sunday, July 5, 2015 at 12:23:07 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Hi,I recently found some nice reclaimed wood (Floor joists from the
Charlestown Armory in Boston) that I want to make into a dining table like
this:

https://drive.google.com/a/jimryan.c...&usp=sha ring


Ok, I posted the pics of the end grain. This is really proving to be very
educational for me so thanks. I don't think they are Oak, that's one of
the woods I recognize pretty reliably, and this doesn't look like it. Oh,
I also had a go with some dark brown Briwax and was very happy with it. So
the colors on it are stain, Was over shellac, wax alone.

Glad the dark brown wax is appealing...

When I looked at the original pictures I was thinking it was chestnut... the
latest pictures haven't changed that impression. If I could see it in person
and smell it I may have a different impression!

John

On Monday, July 6, 2015 at 9:58:22 PM UTC-4, John Grossbohlin wrote:
wrote in message
...

On Sunday, July 5, 2015 at 12:23:07 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Hi,I recently found some nice reclaimed wood (Floor joists from the
Charlestown Armory in Boston) that I want to make into a dining table like
this:

https://drive.google.com/a/jimryan.c...&usp=sha ring


Ok, I posted the pics of the end grain. This is really proving to be very
educational for me so thanks. I don't think they are Oak, that's one of
the woods I recognize pretty reliably, and this doesn't look like it. Oh,
I also had a go with some dark brown Briwax and was very happy with it. So
the colors on it are stain, Was over shellac, wax alone.

Glad the dark brown wax is appealing...

When I looked at the original pictures I was thinking it was chestnut... the
latest pictures haven't changed that impression. If I could see it in person
and smell it I may have a different impression!

John

Yeah, I tried attaching a scent to the picture, but it wouldn't stick...

Now I have to figure out the finish. I like the wax, but it alone won't be a durable enough finish. The stain I put on was a MinWax poly stain, I don't really like the color, but if I got the right one it might be good. Any thoughts?

On Mon, 6 Jul 2015 21:59:16 -0400, "John Grossbohlin"
wrote:

wrote in message
...

On Sunday, July 5, 2015 at 12:23:07 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Hi,I recently found some nice reclaimed wood (Floor joists from the
Charlestown Armory in Boston) that I want to make into a dining table like
this:

https://drive.google.com/a/jimryan.c...&usp=sha ring


Ok, I posted the pics of the end grain. This is really proving to be very
educational for me so thanks. I don't think they are Oak, that's one of
the woods I recognize pretty reliably, and this doesn't look like it. Oh,
I also had a go with some dark brown Briwax and was very happy with it. So
the colors on it are stain, Was over shellac, wax alone.

Glad the dark brown wax is appealing...

When I looked at the original pictures I was thinking it was chestnut... the
latest pictures haven't changed that impression. If I could see it in person
and smell it I may have a different impression!

John
I didn't see the pictures but from the description (and the source) I
also wondered if it might not be "American Chestnut".
It's pretty well extinct now but was once one of the most common
construction woods in the eastern USA

wrote in message
...

On Monday, July 6, 2015 at 9:58:22 PM UTC-4, John Grossbohlin wrote:

Glad the dark brown wax is appealing...

When I looked at the original pictures I was thinking it was chestnut...
the
latest pictures haven't changed that impression. If I could see it in
person
and smell it I may have a different impression!

John

Yeah, I tried attaching a scent to the picture, but it wouldn't stick...

Now I have to figure out the finish. I like the wax, but it alone won't be
a durable enough finish. The stain I put on was a MinWax poly stain, I
don't really like the color, but if I got the right one it might be good.
Any thoughts?

I've got a couple hybrid American/Japanese chestnut trees in my yard. The
catkins are falling now and the burrs will start forming soon. They make a
mess and the squirrels love them... I've milled some small boards from storm
damaged branches over the years with which I've made some keepsake boxes.
The wood has a color and smell that is different from the various oaks and
pines I've encountered over the years.

For a rustic piece the wax alone would probably be fine and it would build
more character over time... though it does need reapplication based on wear.
My former associate Wallace Gusler is a fan of wax and microcrystalline wax
is a favorite of preservationists of not only furniture but of things like
guns. http://www.shellac.net/wax_art.html

An alternative could be a stain of appropriate color that is wiped off to
show the variance in the hardness of the grain and then a separate finish
like polyurethane applied over it. I don't think you could get the color
affect correct using a combination stain/finish while also getting a film
build up.

John

On 07/06/2015 8:59 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
....

When I looked at the original pictures I was thinking it was chestnut...
the latest pictures haven't changed that impression. If I could see it
in person and smell it I may have a different impression!
....

I see none of the characteristic open porosity of chestnut...

--

On 07/07/2015 7:14 AM, dpb wrote:
On 07/06/2015 8:59 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
...

When I looked at the original pictures I was thinking it was chestnut...
the latest pictures haven't changed that impression. If I could see it
in person and smell it I may have a different impression!
...

I see none of the characteristic open porosity of chestnut...

Intended to add/ask--I've seen none of the new hybrids milled into
lumber but I'd presume they also are open-pored? (Wouldn't seem to
qualify as the chestnut part of the equation otherswise ).

Are the hybrids also partial to becoming wormy or has the hybridization
disturbed that trend, too?

There was quite a lot of chestnut reclaimed from fallen logs in VA
during the time we were in Lynchburg (late '60s/thru most '70s) so saw
quite a lot of the American chestnut that way. There was one sizable
specimen that survived the blight that VA Tech (VPI) foresters were
protecting with their lives that got to take a field trip to visit.
They went so far as to use the spy-novel expediency of using blindfolds
part of the way so visitors couldn't inadvertently or on purpose reveal
the location they were so serious of protecting it...

I don't know what became of that effort, I ought to see if can track
down any of those folks any longer but it's been since in the mid '80s
that last knew anything of them.

There's one American elm in splendid isolation here on the farm in far
SW KS where there were so few and we were far enough from town that the
Dutch elm disease didn't get it. AFAIK there are none surviving in
town. It's a tough place for most trees out here, and this has only
reached 30-40 ft in 70 or 80 years but it's a gorgeously-shaped
specimen. Unfortunately, the American elm isn't self-fertile so while
it puts out a zillion seeds every spring, none ever get pollinated to
make new ones... All we get are a zillion of the Siberian elms every
year, a very poor cousin indeed.

--

On 07/07/2015 8:07 AM, dpb wrote:
....

There was quite a lot of chestnut reclaimed from fallen logs in VA
during the time we were in Lynchburg (late '60s/thru most '70s) so saw
quite a lot of the American chestnut that way. There was one sizable
specimen that survived the blight that VA Tech (VPI) foresters were
protecting with their lives that got to take a field trip to visit. They
went so far as to use the spy-novel expediency of using blindfolds part
of the way so visitors couldn't inadvertently or on purpose reveal the
location they were so serious of protecting it...

I don't know what became of that effort, I ought to see if can track
down any of those folks any longer but it's been since in the mid '80s
that last knew anything of them.
....

Well, a search as I suspected uncovered none of the fella's I knew
nearly 40 year ago but there's still a program at VPI towards the
chestnut as well as the hemlocks (that are falling prey to the woolly
adelgid in alarming numbers all thru the Smokys).

No articles I could find mentioned the remaining pure American chestnuts
other than as seed and genetic source for current research; nothing
about any sizable regrowth ones. It's amazing but even after a hundred
years or so since the massacre there are still roots that do spring up
shoots for a while until the blight finds them...the one that seemed to
have at least sufficient natural resistance to keep it going was about
25 year estimated back then; it would be
beginning-to-get-towards-majestic specimen by now if it did survive...

--

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 12:36:12 PM UTC-5, dpb wrote:


No articles I could find mentioned the remaining pure American chestnuts
other than as seed and genetic source for current research; nothing
about any sizable regrowth ones. It's amazing but even after a hundred
years or so since the massacre there are still roots that do spring up
shoots for a while until the blight finds them...the one that seemed to
have at least sufficient natural resistance to keep it going was about
25 year estimated back then; it would be
beginning-to-get-towards-majestic specimen by now if it did survive...

--

Did you mean: 1) No article(s) about the VA Tech protected chestnut you mentioned, .... or 2) No articles about any true Am. Chestnut (non-hybrid) still surviving?

Though not an article, Wikipedia has a list of "true" survivors. Not sure how old this listing is or if it's still accurate. The individual sites (highlighted) might have articles for their specimens. https://en.wikipedia..org/wiki/American_chestnut

Being naturalist minded, I wouldn't mind trying to grow some trees, despite their not being readily native to this area. They may not be so readily native, here, because other more dominate southern species of trees "prevents" them from good/moderate growth, if at all, here. Maybe under protected growing conditions, they could grow well enough, here.

I see one nursery won't ship seedlings/saplings to Louisiana, but Louisiana only quarantines the Chinese chestnut.... The seeds aren't quarantined, which I find odd. I'd like to get some non-hybridized Am. Chestnut seeds. Some venues/foundations require I be a member, to get seeds or seedlings.

Any idea how I could get some seeds for the native American Chestnut?

With some of the online outlets/nurseries (descriptions), I'm not sure if I'd get seeds of the non-hybridized variety. I'd prefer to order/purchase from a reliable source.

Sonny

On Monday, July 6, 2015 at 4:43:13 PM UTC-5, John McCoy wrote:

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I'd always heard of longleaf as being
a yellow pine. Longleaf, loblolly, slash, and one other I'm
forgetting where the southern yellow pines. Now-a-days most
of what you get is slash pine, because it grows faster. Not
really sure when the old growth was logged out, but I think
it would have been in the WW1 timeframe.

Agreed. Here's a pretty good article: http://www.wood-database.com/wood-ar...overall-guide/

To me, "yellow" pine is a bad characterization for a large group of timbers, all lumped together as a group. Other "YP" lists include other species of pines, as listed above, as well. And if yer from the south, it would be yaller pines.

But long leaf pine is different and distinguishable, despite what that article says. Long leaf pine has a distinct redness about it, also, especially the heartwood.

I'll grant you, the northern and western white pines were
superior lumber, especially for purposes other than construction.

I'll agree with that, too. I think we kinna got skewered with each our train of thought. I was thinking table tops, flooring and other often-used surfaces, where surfaces generally need to be hard and tough. The premium hard (surface) pine would be LLP.

White pine superior for other uses: Yep. Works well, finishes well, looks great, too, for detailed milling for all kinds of interior applications, cabnets, etc. If you tried to mill YP for detailed work, like moldings, frames, etc., you'd get resin caked and/or burned onto your cutters, saw blades, rollers, etc. The heartwood of LLP (less resin) works much better than the other YPs.

Sonny

On 07/07/2015 6:00 PM, Sonny wrote:
....

Did you mean: 1) No article(s) about the VA Tech protected chestnut you mentioned, ....

Yes; I thought that was clear in context of the (albeit one-sided )
conversation...

--

Sonny wrote in
:

But long leaf pine is different and distinguishable, despite what that
article says. Long leaf pine has a distinct redness about it, also,
especially the heartwood.

More resin in longleaf, I think. I've been told of people
searching out longleaf stumps for lighterwood, because there's
so much resin, even decades after the tree was cut.

But you can get lighterwood and that reddish heartwood in other
yellow pines too, just not so much of it.

John

On 07/07/2015 6:00 PM, Sonny wrote:
....

Any idea how I could get some seeds for the native American Chestnut?
....

I'd probably contact VPI or one of the other researchers and see altho
it may be a nationwide (or nearly so if not on a state-by-state basis)
constraint against shipping the native cultivars in order to minimize
blight risk. I've not looked into what there is or is not available to
general public.

It's hard to get anything of quality to grow out here; all the
eastern/southern trees were adapted to the alkaline pine-forest soils so
even the maples and oaks that we transplanted a number of times haven't
made it for any length of time when combined with the temperature
extremes, low moisture and wind--it's just too tough an environment.
Folks have at least some more success in town where things are protected
particularly from the direct wind by all the structures as compared to
out on the farmstead...

--

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 8:16:55 PM UTC-5, John McCoy wrote:
Sonny wrote
But long leaf pine is different and distinguishable, despite what that
article says. Long leaf pine has a distinct redness about it, also,
especially the heartwood.

More resin in longleaf, I think. I've been told of people
searching out longleaf stumps for lighterwood, because there's
so much resin, even decades after the tree was cut.

But you can get lighterwood and that reddish heartwood in other
yellow pines too, just not so much of it.

John

Jesus Christ! You're arguing for arguments sake, with poor "evidence" or "knowledge". You should do your own field work and not rely on those "people", i.e., some root-collecting hillbilly(?), whom you believed to be intellegent enough to ID the specie of pine by virtue of decayed, weathered, moss covered(?) root stock. Too bad we don't have one of them, here, to absolutely ID the OPs boards.

I suppose those "people" are as knowledgeable of comparative "resin" content in the root stock of the different pines, as well, as they are knowledgeable of IDing the specie of aged root stock.

There's a difference between resin and sap, both of which are different from pitch. The burning qualities of pine root stock comes from the pitch, not resin (or sap).

Sonny

On 07/07/2015 6:42 PM, Sonny wrote:
....


To me, "yellow" pine is a bad characterization for a large group of
timbers, all lumped together as a group. Other "YP" lists include other
species of pines, as listed above, as well. And if yer from the south,
it would be yaller pines.

But long leaf pine is different and distinguishable, despite what
that article says. Long leaf pine has a distinct redness about it,
also,especially the heartwood.

....

US FPL also includes the others; the particular article notes they're
there in lesser quantities despite a complete listing.

I'd wager in a random sample of commercial lumber from similar locations
within the log eyeball identification of the various species in a blind
test odds would be minimal at being above chance on isolating species;
they're that similar and have enough variation between individuals of
the same actual species as to be as the article says, virtually
indistinguishable as lumber.

The picture of the link you give of a second species (forget which one I
clicked second and didn't go back) chose a particularly stained piece as
its prime picture, hardly a way to make a fair comparison.

I make no guess as to what particular species OPs sample board is but
I'm essentially positive it is one of the SYP group. Given the age of
the building from whence it came odds are better that it could be
longleaf but again you've got to remember this was construction lumber
(and a government building so in all likelihood it was low bidder).
We're not talking furniture lumber here; even at the turn of the 20th
century time frame.(+)

A side note here on an earlier point rather than posting twice -- you
commented on the checking; recall that OP says these are 2x14; that's
quite a wide piece and you see that this particular board is edge of log
so there's sapwood both sides. That's a wide slab to start with to
expect to dry w/o checking and when one considers the location in the
log it'd be remarkable if there weren't any.

I mentioned the barn lumber here in comparison; it wasn't as long a span
nor as heavy a load as an armory so the mow floor joists are nominal 2x8
(were finished 4S as a modern 2X except thickness/width are about -3/8"
or 11/32" shy of nominal instead of the modern "less-half". Being
smaller dimension, most don't have much checking but as noted there are
some that look essentially identical to OP's. The columns were built
on-site by using 3 to 5 2x6 instead of solids. The height to the
gambrel break in the mow roof is 22-ft and they're all single spans.
When we did the re-roof and tightened up some of the interior bracing I
inspected some of those fairly carefully; there are some that are almost
completely knotless the whole length...tough to find that now!

Speaking of pieces of lumber; in the late '50s/very early '60s Dad built
a small feedlot and in conjunction added a feed mill and some grain bins
in a corner of the mow. The additional framing for the support of those
bins was Doug fir and there are some leftovers of it still up there.
They're 20-footers 2x10 and 2x12; quite a few of them are also knot free
(not quite as mean a feat with fir, granted, but still considering
today's lumber that's pretty remarkable they just came in on the rail
car that way w/o any special requirements...I can't bring myself to even
touch one of 'em given what they'd cost! Haven't come up with the neat
enough project yet to make cutting one up worth it over having them to
marvel over...

The fences for the feedlot were all SYP roughsawn material of 10/4x8
16/18 ft. There's a pile of it left over as well; it has checked some
because it wasn't dried that much intended as fence material when sawn.
I have built a couple of bench tops with a few of them for the chopsaw
to sit in along the barn driveway since came back but again it's too
good to use...

(+) Geezer story alert--Speaking of changing perspectives on wood and
its usage, when we were still in Lynchburg Campbell County salvaged an
old elementary school the earliest parts of the building which dated
back to the late 18th century. Rather than an auction, they had
dismantled everything first and had it available for purchase. I went
down one Saturday morning thinking to get a slate board for the kids and
just wandered around thru all the lumber piles. Some looked awfully
dark but thought was just coal remnants after all those years of
furnaces but decided to just see. A few whittles w/ the knife and
surprise! most of the structural timbers were black walnut--as much as
3x12 12 and 14 footers.

I had just met a local young kid who was turning out decoupage plaques
by hand for the then craze as a way to earn spending money to get
through school when he advertised a small shaper and planer in the
Sunday paper. We had struck up a friendship and were trying to build
some furniture together as a venture to both make a little extra money.
Davis Paint, a local home-owned manufacturer and retailer had
bankrolled Eddie and set him up a shop in the basement of their store
downtown in order to ramp up the plaque production. Anyway, I called
Eddie told him what I had found and we bought 10000 bd-ft of walnut for
$1000 out of that stack of material. The point of the story is that way
back then, walnut wasn't considered a furniture wood in that area yet,
it was used as any other hardwood as a construction material or even
fence posts I was told altho that I never actually saw.

The biggest regret (other than giving up UVA season basketball tickets
the year Ralph Sampson was to matriculate) when we left VA to head to TN
was having to let all that go as had no place to put any of it other
than a board or two...Eddie ended up going on to quit school and start a
fulltime wood shop. After the plaque craze died out, he got into the
platform shoes for the local Craddock-Terry shoe manufacturer and turned
some 40000 bd-ft of soft maple thru the shop one year doing them.
Unfortunately, he ran into some serious health problems with rheumatoid
arthritis at a very young age and ended up crippled before he was out of
his 40's...

--

On Tue, 07 Jul 2015 12:36:07 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 07/07/2015 8:07 AM, dpb wrote:
...

There was quite a lot of chestnut reclaimed from fallen logs in VA
during the time we were in Lynchburg (late '60s/thru most '70s) so saw
quite a lot of the American chestnut that way. There was one sizable
specimen that survived the blight that VA Tech (VPI) foresters were
protecting with their lives that got to take a field trip to visit. They
went so far as to use the spy-novel expediency of using blindfolds part
of the way so visitors couldn't inadvertently or on purpose reveal the
location they were so serious of protecting it...

I don't know what became of that effort, I ought to see if can track
down any of those folks any longer but it's been since in the mid '80s
that last knew anything of them.
...

Well, a search as I suspected uncovered none of the fella's I knew
nearly 40 year ago but there's still a program at VPI towards the
chestnut as well as the hemlocks (that are falling prey to the woolly
adelgid in alarming numbers all thru the Smokys).

No articles I could find mentioned the remaining pure American chestnuts
other than as seed and genetic source for current research; nothing
about any sizable regrowth ones. It's amazing but even after a hundred
years or so since the massacre there are still roots that do spring up
shoots for a while until the blight finds them...the one that seemed to
have at least sufficient natural resistance to keep it going was about
25 year estimated back then; it would be
beginning-to-get-towards-majestic specimen by now if it did survive...

We have Chestnut on the property, not American variety but Chinese. It
does not grow as large as an American would, but the deer and
squirrels love the nuts.

"Sonny" wrote in message
...

Any idea how I could get some seeds for the native American Chestnut?

Check American Chestnut Foundation

http://www.acf.org/

After a local arborist thought my trees were American Chestnut I checked
with them to confirm. Upon inspection of sample materials from my trees they
determined they were hybrid American/Japanese.

"dpb" wrote in message ...

On 07/06/2015 8:59 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
....

When I looked at the original pictures I was thinking it was chestnut...
the latest pictures haven't changed that impression. If I could see it
in person and smell it I may have a different impression!
....

I see none of the characteristic open porosity of chestnut...

I don't think the end cut was terribly revealing of the grain structure...
this as it is not very clean. There seemed to be hints of open cell
structure in some areas and other areas seemed "smeared" by the blade. It
either needed to be cut with say a WWII, planed with a hand plane, or shaved
with a sharp chisel to give a better idea of the structure. As I mentioned
previously, seeing and smelling the wood in person might change my
impressions but it still strikes me as chestnut based on what I've seen of
it.

On 07/08/2015 12:25 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message ...

On 07/06/2015 8:59 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
...

When I looked at the original pictures I was thinking it was chestnut...
the latest pictures haven't changed that impression. If I could see it
in person and smell it I may have a different impression!
...

I see none of the characteristic open porosity of chestnut...

I don't think the end cut was terribly revealing of the grain
structure... this as it is not very clean. There seemed to be hints of
open cell structure in some areas and other areas seemed "smeared" by
the blade. It either needed to be cut with say a WWII, planed with a
hand plane, or shaved with a sharp chisel to give a better idea of the
structure. As I mentioned previously, seeing and smelling the wood in
person might change my impressions but it still strikes me as chestnut
based on what I've seen of it.

While not pristine, looks clear enough to me there are no ring porous
rings but simply the growth rings. Chestnut (like oak, doesn't have
that color difference but the late wood rings are separated by the
earlywood porous rings, even more pronounced generally than the oaks.
The characteristic difference between it and the oaks is that the
medullary rays aren't visible with naked eye as are in oak.

http://web.utk.edu/~mtaylo29/pages/Identifying%20Chestnut.htm

The end grain of OP's isn't going to look anything whatever like this
irregardless of how much he polishes it up.

I also go back to the age and purpose and government building and think
even by then chestnut wouldn't have been on the low bidder list.

--

In article , says...

On 07/07/2015 6:00 PM, Sonny wrote:
...

Any idea how I could get some seeds for the native American Chestnut?
...

I'd probably contact VPI or one of the other researchers and see altho
it may be a nationwide (or nearly so if not on a state-by-state basis)
constraint against shipping the native cultivars in order to minimize
blight risk. I've not looked into what there is or is not available to
general public.

It's hard to get anything of quality to grow out here; all the
eastern/southern trees were adapted to the alkaline pine-forest soils so
even the maples and oaks that we transplanted a number of times haven't
made it for any length of time when combined with the temperature
extremes, low moisture and wind--it's just too tough an environment.
Folks have at least some more success in town where things are protected
particularly from the direct wind by all the structures as compared to
out on the farmstead...

http://www.acf.org/

On Wednesday, July 8, 2015 at 8:54:48 AM UTC-5, dpb wrote:


(+) Geezer story alert--Speaking of changing perspectives on wood and
its usage, when we were still in Lynchburg Campbell County salvaged an
old elementary school ....

most of the structural timbers were black walnut--as much as
3x12 12 and 14 footers.

When it comes to salvaging and using old lumber, I always get excited. Those "what if" moments, when those old lumbers are not able to be had, or retained, are almost heart breaking. For some pieces, I, sometimes, never know, exactly, what is there, so I try not to dismiss anything, until I can better evaluate it.

In the spirit of salvaging, I'd like to see OP make the best table he can, no matter what the wood is.

Another geezer story:
Long ago, I salvaged an old house, thought the 2X4 roof rafters were "same ole" cypress, which I already had plenty of, so I was not so excited/impressed. Later, I needed new saw horses and grabbed some of those 2Xs. Turned out to be red maple (a secondary lumber?)..... not the greatest lumber, but I was pleasantly surprised. Their "roof rafter weathered" look was the look of typical weathered roof rafters, whether cypress or any other wood.

Despite red maple being labeled a "secondary" lumber, some of that maple had hints of birdseye. You never know what you've salvaged, until you give it a good inspection and/or work with it. Here are two projects, using that maple:
1) Child's loveseat rocker, chair on my right. Made to donate to a school fund raiser, but I discovered a construction defect (my screw-up), so it was never donated. The chair on my left is made from salvaged cypress.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/438361...in/photostream
2) A large rocker. https://www.flickr.com/photos/438361...in/photostream

Sonny

Sonny wrote:
On Wednesday, July 8, 2015 at 8:54:48 AM UTC-5, dpb wrote:

(+) Geezer story alert--Speaking of changing perspectives on wood and
its usage, when we were still in Lynchburg Campbell County salvaged an
old elementary school ....
most of the structural timbers were black walnut--as much as
3x12 12 and 14 footers.
When it comes to salvaging and using old lumber, I always get excited. Those "what if" moments, when those old lumbers are not able to be had, or retained, are almost heart breaking. For some pieces, I, sometimes, never know, exactly, what is there, so I try not to dismiss anything, until I can better evaluate it.

In the spirit of salvaging, I'd like to see OP make the best table he can, no matter what the wood is.

Another geezer story:
Long ago, I salvaged an old house, thought the 2X4 roof rafters were "same ole" cypress, which I already had plenty of, so I was not so excited/impressed. Later, I needed new saw horses and grabbed some of those 2Xs. Turned out to be red maple (a secondary lumber?)..... not the greatest lumber, but I was pleasantly surprised. Their "roof rafter weathered" look was the look of typical weathered roof rafters, whether cypress or any other wood.

Despite red maple being labeled a "secondary" lumber, some of that maple had hints of birdseye. You never know what you've salvaged, until you give it a good inspection and/or work with it. Here are two projects, using that maple:
1) Child's loveseat rocker, chair on my right. Made to donate to a school fund raiser, but I discovered a construction defect (my screw-up), so it was never donated. The chair on my left is made from salvaged cypress.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/438361...in/photostream
2) A large rocker. https://www.flickr.com/photos/438361...in/photostream

Sonny

Lovely. The theme makes me remember the "swings" from 3rd grade. Happy
Rocking/Swinging!

Bill