I've been working on our master baths. So far, I have faux painted the
walls, laid tile on the tub surround and the shower, laid floor tile
(roughly 4000 tiles total). Now I am working on the vanities. There are
two plus a floor to ceiling cabinet.

The plan is...
mahogany door drawer fronts
mahogany veneer on outside end panels
black paint on...
face frames
panel interiors and non-ends

I've been working on the face frame for the tall cabinet. Poplar, sanded
well; several coats of shellac sanded well for sealer. I sprayed it
yesterday with black semi-gloss. Looks like hell.

I've been doing stuff like this for close to 60 years and know full well
that a flawless paint job is very difficult; I had forgotten HOW difficult,
especially black (other than flat black).

Oh, I'll get it fixed...sand with 400 or 600 wet or dry, paint, sand, paint,
etc. but never EVER again (except for the other two face frames). I may
switch to flat

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On 5/31/2015 4:21 PM, dadiOH wrote:
I've been working on our master baths. So far, I have faux painted the
walls, laid tile on the tub surround and the shower, laid floor tile
(roughly 4000 tiles total). Now I am working on the vanities. There are
two plus a floor to ceiling cabinet.

The plan is...
mahogany door drawer fronts
mahogany veneer on outside end panels
black paint on...
face frames
panel interiors and non-ends

I've been working on the face frame for the tall cabinet. Poplar, sanded
well; several coats of shellac sanded well for sealer. I sprayed it
yesterday with black semi-gloss. Looks like hell.

I've been doing stuff like this for close to 60 years and know full well
that a flawless paint job is very difficult; I had forgotten HOW difficult,
especially black (other than flat black).

Oh, I'll get it fixed...sand with 400 or 600 wet or dry, paint, sand, paint,
etc. but never EVER again (except for the other two face frames). I may
switch to flat


Hope that you used DeWaxed shellac... (or zinsser sanding sealer).
As far as looks like Hell, not sure what went wrong as you description
doesn't tell us where it went wrong.

I also hope you left some shellac on, that you didn't sand through. If
you did, that would leave you with a very uneven finish.

And yes, gloss black shows every defect... so you have to be real sure
you have a good base..


--
Jeff

On Sunday, May 31, 2015 at 3:22:07 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:

I've been working on the face frame for the tall cabinet. Poplar, sanded
well; several coats of shellac sanded well for sealer. I sprayed it
yesterday with black semi-gloss. Looks like hell.

I've been doing stuff like this for close to 60 years and know full well
that a flawless paint job is very difficult; I had forgotten HOW difficult,
especially black (other than flat black).

Oh, I'll get it fixed...sand with 400 or 600 wet or dry, paint, sand, paint,
etc. but never EVER again (except for the other two face frames). I may
switch to flat

--

dadiOH

I hate to see that. With all the time and effort you have put here over the years to help those in a bind with their finishing efforts, it is frustrating to see hear of you having some serious problems. You certainly have the experience to know that no matter your experience level, no matter your techniques, sometimes no matter... things just don't work right.

Wish I was there to help. At the least we could smoke a cigar and give the whole thing a good cussin'.

The only small detail I would suggest would be to strip the finish off rather than to sand and sand and sand. Even with sanding, i the surface has fouling, it might not be removed with sanding.

I don't know that I could help in any way, but if you would post some details such as type of finish, application method, and all steps, maybe I could help. On the other hand, it might take more time to type it all out than to just get in the middle of the repairs.

Sorry to see that. Even as long as I have been doing finshing, I am not only incredulous when the finish isn't what I want, but really ****ed off.

Now is the time that you remember you are a craftsman, and finishing is a craft just like any other. You just don't get it right every time.

Good luck on your fix.

Robert

wrote:
On Sunday, May 31, 2015 at 3:22:07 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:

I've been working on the face frame for the tall cabinet. Poplar,
sanded
well; several coats of shellac sanded well for sealer. I sprayed it
yesterday with black semi-gloss. Looks like hell.

I've been doing stuff like this for close to 60 years and know full
well
that a flawless paint job is very difficult; I had forgotten HOW
difficult,
especially black (other than flat black).

Oh, I'll get it fixed...sand with 400 or 600 wet or dry, paint,
sand, paint,
etc. but never EVER again (except for the other two face frames). I
may
switch to flat

--

dadiOH

I hate to see that. With all the time and effort you have put here
over the years to help those in a bind with their finishing efforts,
it is frustrating to see hear of you having some serious problems.
You certainly have the experience to know that no matter your
experience level, no matter your techniques, sometimes no matter...
things just don't work right.

Wish I was there to help. At the least we could smoke a cigar and
give the whole thing a good cussin'.

What, no beer??


The only small detail I would suggest would be to strip the finish
off rather than to sand and sand and sand. Even with sanding, if the
surface has fouling, it might not be removed with sanding.

No, it isn't fouling, the problem is that the surface wasn't good enough.
As you know, no film is ever any better than the surface upon which it is
applied...any ding, unfilled grain, whatever will show. And it shows in
spades with semi-gloss black. With white, it would probably be acceptable.
Even with the black it only looks like hell if there is a reflection of a
light surce, either diffuse or specular.

Before the paint the surface looked fine. And with varnish or lacquer it
would look fine now. It is just really hard to see imperfections on raw
wood, almost as hard with a clear finish. Easier (sometimes) to feel them
rather than see them.


I don't know that I could help in any way, but if you would post some
details such as type of finish, application method, and all steps,
maybe I could help.

OK. As I said, poplar. Sanded to120 on my drum sander. After joining,
sanded again with 120 and a 1/2 sheet Portar Cable sander. Then sanded
again with 150, then with a 1/4 sheet sander with 180.

Then brushed on clear, dewaxed shellac, 3 heavy coats, dried 2 days.

Briefly sanded shellac with 220 and a small sanding block so I could see -
more or less - high spots. After that. 320 wet or dry, same size hand
block. I tried to be careful but still cut through the shellac in a couple
of spots. Vacuumed and wiped down well with microfiber after all sanding,
BTW. ( knew the cut through spots would show, figured they were shallow
enough to disappear after a few coats and more sanding inbetween).

Next, 3 light coats of Rust Oleum 280721 American Accents Ultra Cover 2X
Spray Paint, Semi-Gloss Black. Let it dry 48+ hours, sprayed a couple more
coats. I don't have spray equipment so I live in rattle can land if I want
to spray and - for these 2 1/2" rails and stiles - the spray pattern from
the cans seems fine. The biggest problem with most rattle can paint is the
necessity of recoating within one hour or after (at least) 48. In the one
hour time frame, it hasn't dried enough to really see what it is like; after
48 means sitting on your thumb waiting. In fact, even 48 hours isn't enough
sometimes...if there is a thick spot a new coat will cause it to reticulate
almost immediately, don't know why but I'm guessing from an agressive
solvent.

What I really need is a high build primer/sealer that sands REALLY easily.
In my boat days, I used one from International. Wonderful stuff...dried
fast, sandable in an hour and sanded VERY easily. I always brushed it on
heavily, lots of brush marks but that didn't matter because of the ease of
sanding. It had originally been formulated for use on Phillipine mahogany
to fill it in one coat. And it did. Most got sanded off leaving a very thin,
semi-transparent layer that was smooth as a baby's bottom. It was still
made maybe 15 years ago - at about $125/gallon - but when I looked on the
web maybe five years ago it had disappeared.

Then there is the heavy bodied sanding surfacer for autos, either in cans or
rattle cans. It is good stuff too but all I have had has been lacquer based
and I can't use it now (unless I strip the work) without it eating the
paint. Maybe for the face frames I have yet to make.

I've given some thought to buying one of the inexpensive $100+-, HVLP
sprayers for use when I get to the partitions that will be painted black;
however, that is about the only use I will ever have for it and I may just
use a roller since they will be pretty much hidden.

Any thoughts you have will be appreciated, especially about a high build
primer/sealer/surfacer that sands REALLY easily. Preferably, one that can
be tinted to dark grey.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On 6/1/2015 2:19 PM, dadiOH wrote:
Before the paint the surface looked fine. And with varnish or lacquer it
would look fine now. It is just really hard to see imperfections on raw
wood, almost as hard with a clear finish. Easier (sometimes) to feel them
rather than see them.


So that is really true. It is easier to feel them then it is to see
them. I used to do model airplanes (stunt planes ) we would get points
on finish. I wound up in the front row. Because a master builder
mentored me and told me your hands will pick up things your eyes will
miss. If your hand feels it, it's a problem.



I think rattle cans are good for some things, utility grade stuff. But I
would not consider it for semi or gloss black. To me that's either out
of a spray gun, or from a brush. With a brush thinner retarder work to
thin and prevent too fast flash time, that way it will flow out and lose
the brush marks.

You also can make your own sanding sealer. You can mix talcum powder
into a varnish or probably shellac. Sand it out, do it again, sand it
out, when done top coat the shellac or varnish. to seal the powder in.
The powder makes a nice sanding sealer.

Give it a try on a scrap first. you can mix different weights of filler.

--
Jeff

On 6/1/2015 1:19 PM, dadiOH wrote:
wrote:
On Sunday, May 31, 2015 at 3:22:07 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:

I've been working on the face frame for the tall cabinet. Poplar,
sanded
well; several coats of shellac sanded well for sealer. I sprayed it
yesterday with black semi-gloss. Looks like hell.

I've been doing stuff like this for close to 60 years and know full
well
that a flawless paint job is very difficult; I had forgotten HOW
difficult,
especially black (other than flat black).

Oh, I'll get it fixed...sand with 400 or 600 wet or dry, paint,
sand, paint,
etc. but never EVER again (except for the other two face frames). I
may
switch to flat

--

dadiOH

I hate to see that. With all the time and effort you have put here
over the years to help those in a bind with their finishing efforts,
it is frustrating to see hear of you having some serious problems.
You certainly have the experience to know that no matter your
experience level, no matter your techniques, sometimes no matter...
things just don't work right.

Wish I was there to help. At the least we could smoke a cigar and
give the whole thing a good cussin'.

What, no beer??


The only small detail I would suggest would be to strip the finish
off rather than to sand and sand and sand. Even with sanding, if the
surface has fouling, it might not be removed with sanding.

No, it isn't fouling, the problem is that the surface wasn't good enough.
As you know, no film is ever any better than the surface upon which it is
applied...any ding, unfilled grain, whatever will show. And it shows in
spades with semi-gloss black. With white, it would probably be acceptable.
Even with the black it only looks like hell if there is a reflection of a
light surce, either diffuse or specular.

Before the paint the surface looked fine. And with varnish or lacquer it
would look fine now. It is just really hard to see imperfections on raw
wood, almost as hard with a clear finish. Easier (sometimes) to feel them
rather than see them.


I don't know that I could help in any way, but if you would post some
details such as type of finish, application method, and all steps,
maybe I could help.

OK. As I said, poplar. Sanded to120 on my drum sander. After joining,
sanded again with 120 and a 1/2 sheet Portar Cable sander. Then sanded
again with 150, then with a 1/4 sheet sander with 180.

Then brushed on clear, dewaxed shellac, 3 heavy coats, dried 2 days.

Briefly sanded shellac with 220 and a small sanding block so I could see -
more or less - high spots. After that. 320 wet or dry, same size hand
block. I tried to be careful but still cut through the shellac in a couple
of spots. Vacuumed and wiped down well with microfiber after all sanding,
BTW. ( knew the cut through spots would show, figured they were shallow
enough to disappear after a few coats and more sanding inbetween).

Next, 3 light coats of Rust Oleum 280721 American Accents Ultra Cover 2X
Spray Paint, Semi-Gloss Black. Let it dry 48+ hours, sprayed a couple more
coats. I don't have spray equipment so I live in rattle can land if I want
to spray and - for these 2 1/2" rails and stiles - the spray pattern from
the cans seems fine. The biggest problem with most rattle can paint is the
necessity of recoating within one hour or after (at least) 48. In the one
hour time frame, it hasn't dried enough to really see what it is like; after
48 means sitting on your thumb waiting. In fact, even 48 hours isn't enough
sometimes...if there is a thick spot a new coat will cause it to reticulate
almost immediately, don't know why but I'm guessing from an agressive
solvent.

What I really need is a high build primer/sealer that sands REALLY easily.
In my boat days, I used one from International. Wonderful stuff...dried
fast, sandable in an hour and sanded VERY easily. I always brushed it on
heavily, lots of brush marks but that didn't matter because of the ease of
sanding. It had originally been formulated for use on Phillipine mahogany
to fill it in one coat. And it did. Most got sanded off leaving a very thin,
semi-transparent layer that was smooth as a baby's bottom. It was still
made maybe 15 years ago - at about $125/gallon - but when I looked on the
web maybe five years ago it had disappeared.

Then there is the heavy bodied sanding surfacer for autos, either in cans or
rattle cans. It is good stuff too but all I have had has been lacquer based
and I can't use it now (unless I strip the work) without it eating the
paint. Maybe for the face frames I have yet to make.

I've given some thought to buying one of the inexpensive $100+-, HVLP
sprayers for use when I get to the partitions that will be painted black;
however, that is about the only use I will ever have for it and I may just
use a roller since they will be pretty much hidden.

Any thoughts you have will be appreciated, especially about a high build
primer/sealer/surfacer that sands REALLY easily. Preferably, one that can
be tinted to dark grey.

Can't remember the exact name of a primer I used about 5 years ago but
it came from Sherwin Williams and was a high fill and guaranteed to
stick to almost anything. Was doing kitchen cabinets and it worked very
well even on the "fake" woodgrain ends. Did not flow really well and
left ridges but they sanded down to a very flat surface without having
to drink too many beers. Would suggest stopping in at a local SW dealer
and see what they have to offer.

dadiOH wrote:


Next, 3 light coats of Rust Oleum 280721 American Accents Ultra Cover
2X Spray Paint, Semi-Gloss Black. Let it dry 48+ hours, sprayed a
couple more coats. I don't have spray equipment so I live in rattle
can land if I want to spray and - for these 2 1/2" rails and stiles
- the spray pattern from the cans seems fine. The biggest problem
with most rattle can paint is the necessity of recoating within one
hour or after (at least) 48. In the one hour time frame, it hasn't
dried enough to really see what it is like; after 48 means sitting on
your thumb waiting. In fact, even 48 hours isn't enough
sometimes...if there is a thick spot a new coat will cause it to
reticulate almost immediately, don't know why but I'm guessing from
an agressive solvent.

I'll jump in here (late, but that's because I just got home from a whirlwind
trip to Philly to welcome grandchild number 4 into the family...,) but I'm
not a believer in light coats unless you are forced into "dusting" in order
to get around other adhesion problems. I'm a believer in a good medium wet
coat. All the way. You'll get better fill, more even flow-out, and in
general a better finish. Light coats tend to create dry overspray and other
issues that you just have to deal with later.

With rattle cans - you're right. Thick spots will react due to solvent in
the new coat, and an un-cured previous coat. Nice even medium wet coats all
the way. After that - you're at the mercy of the paint. That's the hard
part - you really do have to wait it out to see and/or repair things.
C'mon - you know that...


What I really need is a high build primer/sealer that sands REALLY
easily.

Yes and no... I don't use much high build anymore. I just got tired of
high build primers die-ing back on me and shrinking 2 months after I shot
them, and every damned imperfection showing through as if I'd never even
fixed it. Screw the high build primer route. I don't shoot anything more
than a medium build now and I work hard to just shoot sealer coats. Nothing
worse than sending out a great paint job that comes back in 3 months with
sanding scratches showing up in the finish - that weren't there at delivery!
Read my lips - screw high build.

As for one that sands easily - any urethane primer will sand easy as long as
it's sandable. Just resist the temptation to fix issues with primer.
That's not really the purpose of primer.



I've given some thought to buying one of the inexpensive $100+-, HVLP
sprayers for use when I get to the partitions that will be painted
black; however, that is about the only use I will ever have for it
and I may just use a roller since they will be pretty much hidden.

I wouldn't. For what you have described, you don't need the unit. I'd
knock it back down to dead flat - whatever that takes. If it takes all the
paint off, so be it. If it only takes the high spots off - so be it. Just
get it down the the flatness you're happy with, using a good block. Clean,
etc. That's all to simply get you back to where you had hoped you had
started from.

Give it all a good primer coat - medium wet. Follow the directions or your
instincts as that relates to re-coat times, etc. Build with sealer coats
(preferably), or at worst, medium fill coats. Try to get your primer on as
smooth as you work to get your finish coats on. Many people believe in dry
primer coats - do not do that. Shoot it like it's paint. Rattle cans can
work just fine for this.

Knock your primer back after a day or so, clean and go at it with your
black. As you have already stated - make sure your primer knocks back as
smooth as you want to see your finish be in the end.

I will say that it is easier to fix problem spots with a good gun than it is
with a rattle can, but you seem to understand a fair amount about painting,
and for this project it seems to me you can get what you want out of a
rattle can. If not - take the short trip to Syracuse and I'll work on it
with ya.


--

-Mike-

On Monday, June 1, 2015 at 1:19:41 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:

Wish I was there to help. At the least we could smoke a cigar and
give the whole thing a good cussin'.

What, no beer??

Well, that goes without saying! Toss in a good bourbon and you wouldn't be able to get rid of me!

No, it isn't fouling, the problem is that the surface wasn't good enough.
As you know, no film is ever any better than the surface upon which it is
applied...any ding, unfilled grain, whatever will show. And it shows in
spades with semi-gloss black. With white, it would probably be acceptable.
Even with the black it only looks like hell if there is a reflection of a
light surce, either diffuse or specular.

Well, allow me to get in the middle of this. I am sure that many of the things I will tap out here you already know, but I am typing them simply to make sure all the bases are covered.

Before the paint the surface looked fine. And with varnish or lacquer it
would look fine now. It is just really hard to see imperfections on raw
wood, almost as hard with a clear finish. Easier (sometimes) to feel them
rather than see them.

Always. That's why clear coats, tinted coats and stains are so popular. Achieving a "piano black" finish is a standard few can master. With that at the top of the scale, results with different finishes fall quickly from there.

OK. As I said, poplar. Sanded to120 on my drum sander. After joining,
sanded again with 120 and a 1/2 sheet Portar Cable sander. Then sanded
again with 150, then with a 1/4 sheet sander with 180.

Then brushed on clear, dewaxed shellac, 3 heavy coats, dried 2 days.

Remember, this is my take; you mileage may vary. My comments are based on my personal experience, mostly by me taking my favorite old route of learning everything possible the hard way until I figure things out... that being said...

There is is no need for three coats of shellac, and certainly with sanding sealer, never a need for heavy coats. Heavy coats serve no purpose, and in fact can magnify your problems. With a blemish such as a ding, scratch, etc, the shellac will actually build up around the blemish, actually enhancing its size! This is known in some circles as "pucker". I know this sounds counter intuitive, but trust me on that. This has to do with the speed of drying of the affected area. The thicker area at the bottom of a hole or scratch dries more slowly than the thinner edges, and as the edges dry more quickly they pull up the finish a tiny bit making the hole "pucker". Additional coats compound this problem, especially if there is no sanding between coats. Trying to fill small holes or scratches with any kind of sealer/finish/paint will not only reflect the blemish, but it will build with each coat.

So, two things there. First, sanding sealer fills nothing. Properly applied it is a bondable substrate for almost any finish. Its cured state is a semi permeable film which has its property of adhesion as its strongest point. It sill stick to almost anything, but its semi permeable nature will allow almost any finish to stick to it as well. Shellac is mistaken used as a build finish by woodworkers, when it isn't. Its thinner cousin, the sanding sealer is even less so. IF you are using shellac or sanding sealer, the application is the same. Many thin coats do the trick as it will resolvate properly with itself from one coat to the next if the coat is thin enough. As with lacquer, when properly applied you can put as many coats of lacquer (or shellac) on any project as long as you apply thin, even coats..

Apply your shellac/sealer in thin, wet coats. Allow it to dry and sand between every coat. This will help hide tiny imperfections, but more importantly will provide a consistent, bondable substrate.

Second thing; fill the holes. I don't do a lot of kitchen cabinet refinishing anymore, but actually just finished one about a month ago. All the cabinets were beat to hell and back, and it was only about $2K less to refinish the cabinets than it was to replace. But the house was going on the market after rehab, so refinish it was. Your methodology on your project will be the same as mine, so here's what I do. Sand the wood surfaces as smooth as possible. In a rake light, mark the offending blemishes with a pencil. Fill the holes, no matter how small with Durham's Rock Hard putty. I use this for my utility filler for dents, pin holes, scratches, etc., when painting. I use it to fill screw holes when new hardware doesn't line up (does it ever...?), gashes on drawer fronts, dents from wear and tear, etc. It goes on fast, dries quickly an sands as smooth as a baby's behind. An important note: some surfaces are badly damaged, and the whole surface needs work. Durham's to the rescue. You can (and I do!) thin the product out well enough to float out whole surface of drawers, stiles, doors, cabinet sides, etc. And it sands easily enough that it makes surface prep an easy deal.. If I have a series of dents or dings that are fairly large but not too deep, I "enhance" the damage by drilling an 1/8" hole in the dent to give the Durham's more traction. After Durham's, finish your inspection with a rake light and fill anything left you missed. This is painless, on small holes you can sand in less than an hour, and on large screw holes and dents, you can sand smooth in a couple.


Briefly sanded shellac with 220 and a small sanding block so I could see -
more or less - high spots. After that. 320 wet or dry, same size hand
block. I tried to be careful but still cut through the shellac in a couple
of spots. Vacuumed and wiped down well with microfiber after all sanding,
BTW. ( knew the cut through spots would show, figured they were shallow
enough to disappear after a few coats and more sanding in between).

This can add to your problems. When you cut through your substrate, you produce what is known as a "witness line". The witness line is unacceptable for any manor of reasons. If you see a witness line between your coats of shellac, your shellac didn't resolvate or bond to itself, leaving you with a film of air between coats. If you cut through your shellac altogether, that means you have an exposed edge of finish that is like an ocean wave on the beach. One side is water (shellac), the other side is sand (raw wood). When using finishes with aggressive solvents in them they will find these dissimilar substrates and work to separate them. The damage caused from witness lines can cause bubbles, waves, or even a reflection of the actual line itself. If you sand though, recoat.


Next, 3 light coats of Rust Oleum 280721 American Accents Ultra Cover 2X
Spray Paint, Semi-Gloss Black. Let it dry 48+ hours, sprayed a couple more
coats. I don't have spray equipment so I live in rattle can land if I want
to spray and - for these 2 1/2" rails and stiles - the spray pattern from
the cans seems fine. The biggest problem with most rattle can paint is the
necessity of recoating within one hour or after (at least) 48. In the one
hour time frame, it hasn't dried enough to really see what it is like; after
48 means sitting on your thumb waiting. In fact, even 48 hours isn't enough
sometimes...if there is a thick spot a new coat will cause it to reticulate
almost immediately, don't know why but I'm guessing from an agressive
solvent.

You are correct. The paint from a rattle can is part of a very sophisticated system, a combination of resins and carrier/solvents. The reason you can recoat in such a short time is that the solvents used are extremely "hot", and are likely somewhere in the area of xylene or toluene. So... see my comments on puckering, and apply to your surface. Your observations and the cause of what you noticed are spot on.

It is easy to get a good finish on a small project with rattle cans. But to get a really good finish? More trouble than it is worth. The coats of material they shoot are nozzle dependent. Additionally, as pressure winds down, so does your atomization of product and the amount coming from the can.. I find that to be not only the case with all prepackaged sprays, but it also differs highly from manufacturer to manufacturer. This makes the learning curve different on every single product. Even colors are thinned and react differently; try spraying a pastel from a can, then go back to your black. You eon't beleive the difference. Darker = harder to work with.

What I really need is a high build primer/sealer that sands REALLY easily..
In my boat days, I used one from International. Wonderful stuff...dried
fast, sandable in an hour and sanded VERY easily. I always brushed it on
heavily, lots of brush marks but that didn't matter because of the ease of
sanding. It had originally been formulated for use on Phillipine mahogany
to fill it in one coat. And it did. Most got sanded off leaving a very thin,
semi-transparent layer that was smooth as a baby's bottom. It was still
made maybe 15 years ago - at about $125/gallon - but when I looked on the
web maybe five years ago it had disappeared.

In keeping with my habit of learning things the hard way, I bought a gallon of primer/filler from Sherwin Williams. Thinking it was simply a heavy bodied primer, I loaded up the guns and sprayed... for about 10 minutes... then nothing. That stuff was meant to be applied with brush/roller only, as it had small silicates in it about half the size of a grain of salt. Yup... ruined the gun completely doing that, not to mention lost a day on the job.. Thankfully, SW doesn't sell it anymore locally.


Then there is the heavy bodied sanding surfacer for autos, either in cans or
rattle cans. It is good stuff too but all I have had has been lacquer based
and I can't use it now (unless I strip the work) without it eating the
paint. Maybe for the face frames I have yet to make.

Not necessarily. Remember, no amount of priming will repair the blemishes. BUT, if it were me, I would try sanding the daylights out of your work to get it where you want it appearance wise, fill as needed, wash with lacquer thinner, and then apply this http://goo.gl/sBxYD3 withing 20 minutes of your wash. It is the Sherwin Williams equivalent of BIN in the old copper top can which I can't find anymore. It really dries fast, and cleans up easily. It is considered a hybridized primer as it has all kinds of proprietary "stuff" from SW in it. IT WORKS.

This last job I was on was the first time I used that stuff, and I was surprised that a gallon of it is about the price of a quart and a half of BIN. I can't find the old BIN formula I like (which I could spray unthinned)so I went to my SW commercial rep and the sold me a gallon of that stuff. I covered a multitude of sins including previous paint remnants in the wood, old finish remnants, and 35 years of other sins collected in the kitchen that I couldn't sand off. All clean up is with mineral spirits, so it is inexpensive to use.

I sprayed it, but when I had to redo a drawer face I didn't get sanded out well enough, I brushed it on with no problems.

Part of the cabinets had been "refinished" by at least one of the Marx brothers. No telling what they used (it wasn't urethane) but the SW product adhered very well. One of the cabinets had been replaced and had a white oak front with clear lacquer on it. The pores were unfilled, so this was a perfect test for me to see just how much build power the SW product had. I sanded the drawer front smooth, then applied a fairly heavy coat. Remember, this is a sanind sealer, but one one that can build unlike a shellac or nitrocellulose. I waited a day, then applied another fairl heavy coat. I waited one more and shot it again. Now the drawer front looked like I painted it flat white. It id take three days more before I couldn't scratch it with my fingernail, but it sanded out beautifully with 220gr, was very hard, and it held the paint extremely well.

With a brush that might have taken only two coats. You should know that when I was spraying the primer parts of the house were dark and I got a few drips. They sanded out very easily with a block and paper, and weren't detectible after finish coating.

I've given some thought to buying one of the inexpensive $100+-, HVLP
sprayers for use when I get to the partitions that will be painted black;
however, that is about the only use I will ever have for it and I may just
use a roller since they will be pretty much hidden.

You will only get a factory flawless finish when spraying, and that won't come with a rattle can. HVLP can be finicky, and will REQUIRE you to learn about thinning, pressures, air caps, etc. Too much to learn.

Were I in your situation, no doubt I would switch to "long oils" alkyds that are an 8 hour dry. They are very, very forgiving, and can be applied with pad or roller. i routinely use the 6 inch "weenie" rollers with the short nap to apply oil based paints on surfaces and the finish is just fine. Not glassy, but if you are using semi gloss anyway, no one will notice. For smaller pieces, try a foam brush for application. Not the Harbor Freight stuff, but the kind your SW retailer sells. No kidding, if you don't overwork your application, a good quality oil from Sherwin Williams will lay out to a near spray finish when you use a roller or foam brush/pad. Don't try to use a full sized roller, or a long nap roller. Practice on a primed scrap and you will be amazed at your results.


Any thoughts you have will be appreciated, especially about a high build
primer/sealer/surfacer that sands REALLY easily. Preferably, one that can
be tinted to dark grey.

Well, you have my new favorite primer. I have shot up about 4 gallons now on various projects and it is now my "go to" primer. Just in case the link didn't compress properly, here is the whole shooting match:

http://www.sherwin-williams.com/home...s/&N=586551394

Don't be shy about going to SW. A couple of things about them for your particular project. First, you can probably buy just a quart of their great alkyd paint for about $25. A little goes a long way, and when I brush/roll, I thin about 10%. Don't buy the stuff in the blue quart can that is about $6 - $8 cheaper. It sucks. Second, unlike most paint stores (certainly the big box guys) SW will tint your primer. Gotta like that.

Better still, for the next few days our local SW has all their paint products 30% off, which is why I am going to see my guy tomorrow to get some of that very alkyd paint.

I do hope all that helps, not only you but for anyone else that might be interested.

Good look DO, and let us know how it turns out!

Robert

On 5/31/2015 3:21 PM, dadiOH wrote:

Oh, I'll get it fixed...sand with 400 or 600 wet or dry, paint, sand, paint,
etc. but never EVER again (except for the other two face frames). I may
switch to flat

Whenever I run across that problem, I simply call Robert (Nailshooter).

In short order, three pages of detailed "how to" mysteriously shows up
in the inbox.

Measure twice, cut once (+pound to fit)
Ask Robert once, paint once...

Works every time.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

dadiOH wrote:

Thanks to all that replied.

I haven't redone all but I tried sanding down the top rail til it was dead
smooth and then sprayed a coat (medium wet, Mike). It isn't dry but looks
pretty good. Not new car body good but plenty good enough for my face
frame. If it still looks good in a couple of days, I'll do the rest. If
need be, I'll try the talc/shellac filler, Woodchucker; I have a couple of
pounds of talk left from when I was building a dingy and needed an easy sand
thickener for epoxy.

Robert, I'm going to try the SW fast drying primer when I get to making the
other face frames. I'm thinkig it might be useful to spray a light coat of
black on it before sanding...hard to see imperfections with white but with a
color top coat, when the color is gone the white is good. Comments?

Again, thanks to everybody, lots of good info. With luck, this will be my
last foray into the land of paint. I'll be glad to get back to lacquer

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

dadiOH wrote:


Robert, I'm going to try the SW fast drying primer when I get to
making the other face frames. I'm thinkig it might be useful to
spray a light coat of black on it before sanding...hard to see
imperfections with white but with a color top coat, when the color is
gone the white is good. Comments?

That's called a guide coat is it's what we do when we are producing show
quality finishes. You are right - they will show every little imperfection
and you sand/fill until there are no low spots left - indicated by the light
spray coat still showing. That may be way too much perfection for your job,
but that's how to get a dead flat finish.


--

-Mike-

Mike Marlow wrote:
dadiOH wrote:


Robert, I'm going to try the SW fast drying primer when I get to
making the other face frames. I'm thinkig it might be useful to
spray a light coat of black on it before sanding...hard to see
imperfections with white but with a color top coat, when the color is
gone the white is good. Comments?

That's called a guide coat is it's what we do when we are producing
show quality finishes. You are right - they will show every little
imperfection and you sand/fill until there are no low spots left -
indicated by the light spray coat still showing. That may be way too
much perfection for your job, but that's how to get a dead flat
finish.

Sorry - should not have hit send before saying that when spraying a guide
coat - do so very lightly - extremely light! Don't try to get a color
fill - not at all. Just dust on the barest of bare dustings. You're not
looking to fill or color, you're just looking for an indicator of where you
highs and lows are. If you think it's a light dusting, you can probably go
lighter. Hold way back, spray faster than normal, and just barely get a
dusting on there.

For your job - I would not go to the extent of a guide coat. There are too
many other imperfections in wood to go to that length. But - that's how you
do it. If the rest of your project is not that perfect then it's really not
worth the effort.

--

-Mike-

dadiOH wrote:


Robert, I'm going to try the SW fast drying primer when I get to
making the other face frames. I'm thinkig it might be useful to
spray a light coat of black on it before sanding...hard to see
imperfections with white but with a color top coat, when the color
is gone the white is good. Comments?


Sorry that I keep adding thoughts here, but I'm a bit side tracked today, so
some of these ideas come to me later than I wish they had...

As for guide coating the primer - as I said, it's a proven and accepted
technique, but for something like your project, an alternative approach
which would be equally efficient, and a lot less work, would be to prime,
knock it down as you think is the best you can get, and then wipe with a
damp rag, and look down the long lines of the work. The primer will be
shiney while wet, and you'll see lows and highs. That will guide you with
respect to how much more sanding to do. Of course - don't try this approach
with dry primer...

--

-Mike-

Mike Marlow wrote:
Mike Marlow wrote:
dadiOH wrote:


Robert, I'm going to try the SW fast drying primer when I get to
making the other face frames. I'm thinkig it might be useful to
spray a light coat of black on it before sanding...hard to see
imperfections with white but with a color top coat, when the color
is gone the white is good. Comments?

That's called a guide coat is it's what we do when we are producing
show quality finishes. You are right - they will show every little
imperfection and you sand/fill until there are no low spots left -
indicated by the light spray coat still showing. That may be way too
much perfection for your job, but that's how to get a dead flat
finish.

Sorry - should not have hit send before saying that when spraying a
guide coat - do so very lightly - extremely light! Don't try to get
a color fill - not at all. Just dust on the barest of bare dustings.
You're
not looking to fill or color, you're just looking for an indicator of
where you highs and lows are. If you think it's a light dusting, you
can probably go lighter. Hold way back, spray faster than normal,
and just barely get a dusting on there.

For your job - I would not go to the extent of a guide coat. There
are too many other imperfections in wood to go to that length. But -
that's how you do it. If the rest of your project is not that
perfect then it's really not worth the effort.

But Mike, ALL my projects are perfect. At least as perfect as I can get
them. At least the parts that show

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

dadiOH wrote:
Mike Marlow wrote:
Mike Marlow wrote:
dadiOH wrote:


Robert, I'm going to try the SW fast drying primer when I get to
making the other face frames. I'm thinkig it might be useful to
spray a light coat of black on it before sanding...hard to see
imperfections with white but with a color top coat, when the color
is gone the white is good. Comments?

That's called a guide coat is it's what we do when we are producing
show quality finishes. You are right - they will show every little
imperfection and you sand/fill until there are no low spots left -
indicated by the light spray coat still showing. That may be way
too much perfection for your job, but that's how to get a dead flat
finish.

Sorry - should not have hit send before saying that when spraying a
guide coat - do so very lightly - extremely light! Don't try to get
a color fill - not at all. Just dust on the barest of bare dustings.
You're
not looking to fill or color, you're just looking for an indicator of
where you highs and lows are. If you think it's a light dusting, you
can probably go lighter. Hold way back, spray faster than normal,
and just barely get a dusting on there.

For your job - I would not go to the extent of a guide coat. There
are too many other imperfections in wood to go to that length. But -
that's how you do it. If the rest of your project is not that
perfect then it's really not worth the effort.

But Mike, ALL my projects are perfect. At least as perfect as I can
get them. At least the parts that show

But... there is the notion of "perfect enough"...

--

-Mike-

dadiOH wrote:

Here's a job that I did guide coat on (URL at the bottom of this post).
When this car came to me there was not a straight or a flat piece of sheet
metal on the car. Beyond that - a great deal of the sheet metal did not
even exist, and I had to fab in large amounts of it. The entire tail area
above, below and across the tail light areas were rotted right out and what
you see is my new sheet metal. Both sides, ahead of the rear wheel wells -
and up to the doors, is all new metal. The front fenders were curled right
under the car, the tops of both front fenders were crushed right in (nothing
left of the headlight curves), the roof had been used as a trampoline, and
in general - this was a candidate for the junk yard. This one took me 5
months to do - your job will assuredly be less time, but the principles are
the same.

I had to do so much work that I had no alternative but to guide coat this
car. My fingers are really good but don't believe what people tell you -
there is only so much your fingers can tell you. Bullsh*t on the stories
that your fingers can tell you what your eyes cannot see - that's just pure
junk! The only people that say that are the people who have never really
done the work.

Because I had so much of this car to do, and because it was ultimately going
to go to shows (it's won a ton of prizes, since I finished it beyond what
these pictures show), I had to go the route, and flatten this car out as
best as possible - that demands guide coating. You won't have to do this
level of work, but it does show what you can achieve.

http://s1259.photobucket.com/user/mi...ml?sort=3&o=15


--

-Mike-

On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 10:18:10 AM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
dadiOH wrote:

Thanks to all that replied.

I haven't redone all but I tried sanding down the top rail til it was dead
smooth and then sprayed a coat (medium wet, Mike). It isn't dry but looks
pretty good. Not new car body good but plenty good enough for my face
frame. If it still looks good in a couple of days, I'll do the rest. If
need be, I'll try the talc/shellac filler, Woodchucker; I have a couple of
pounds of talk left from when I was building a dingy and needed an easy sand
thickener for epoxy.

Robert, I'm going to try the SW fast drying primer when I get to making the
other face frames. I'm thinkig it might be useful to spray a light coat of
black on it before sanding...hard to see imperfections with white but with a
color top coat, when the color is gone the white is good. Comments?

First, don't add another possible problem by making homemade filler/primer. You are already in deep, so why add some folkloric remedy to the mix? Talc was used before the advent of microballons and is an artifact from when oil based paints were used that would encapsulate the talc particulates completely. A formula good enough for the 50s and 60s, but not so now. Today's finishes are designed to work with the correct counterpart components that are made for specific jobs, not home remedies.

If you are determined to make some homemade filler, try this as answered by the excellent wood finisher Michael Dresdner: http://www.woodworking.com/ww/Articl...ller-5928.aspx

What could you have done to the poplar that it is so beat up to the point of needing so much attention after all your careful sanding to need a heavy duty surface filler? It seems that you did a lot of careful prep, so it is surprising that you have this much work left to do to get a good substrate.

I am thinking at this point you are rapidly making this harder than it needs to be. I will tell you exactly what I would do at this point if my wood was scratched, had holes in it, dented, and anything else that could be a problem. First, go to Home Depot and buy this:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Durham-s-...-CAN/100184116

Not exactly expensive. Mix it up thin, then float out your surfaces. Unless your holes are large and your dents deep (say 1/4 inch) then this stuff will not shrink, even when thinned. Think of floating out a piece of sheetrock when doing this. Apply with a wide putty knife, and work into your defects. You can sand in an hour or so to a perfectly smooth finish. I do this using Durham's a lot. It is cheap and compatible with all finishes. It sands easily and at the price shown is nearly free. Easy to sand, quick to use and easy to apply. Save your talc for another project. Likewise, don't use drywall mud, thinned wood glue and pumice, thinned wood glue with sawdust, etc. Every wood finisher I know uses Durham's to float out surfaces, fill holes (I use it to fill holes, dents, scratches, etc.) and there is a reason why.

You are trying to make primer do something it was never intended to do. It is NOT a pore filler, it is NOT a filler of defects or holes, and it is NOT a heavy build finish that you apply multiple coats to fill defects and sand away the excess. The purpose of wood primer is to seal the wood, protect the top coat of finish against unseen underlying fouling in the surface, and to provide a bondable substrate for the finish coat.

To be frank, I never, ever take all the steps you have put into this so far.. If my surface is in bad shape, I sand to about 180gr. I surface fill by going over the entire surface to be painted using a thin coat of Durham's. I sand the Durham's smooth and look for defects in a rake light, fill/sand anything if needed and I am finished with surface prep. On goes primer, then two coats of finish. I never try to locate all the little problems and damage. It simply takes too long and you never find all of them if your wood is really dinged up. If it is sufficient for me to fill more than a little when painting, I just skim coat and sand the surface. With 100% coverage of filler on your surface, you have a 100% chance of success of filling your defects. It is a fast, time efficient way to deal with a poor surface.

You can't get from here

http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/...psgdkcsgvn.jpg

http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/...psjj3eyvqe.jpg

To here

http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/...psdvtb7pv4.jpg

http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/...ps3rthzc3r.jpg

by trying to take shortcuts or reinvent the wheel. Get the right products, use them as designed, and go on your way.

If you will float out your surface you won't have to worry about rake lights, shadow lights, different colors of primer, and on an on. If you want to continue on that path, yes, you can apply two different colors of material and sand off one color. Then you can see the defects, fill them one at a time, sand them one at a time, clean, reprime, sand again, then apply your finish. Why? You can't think for a moment I did that to that kitchen.

I believe you are now over thinking this as you are tired of screwing with it. So... sand, fill, sand, prime, light sand, paint. I am at the point now where I spray my primer carefully enough that if I don't spot any other problems after priming, I don't even sand it.

Buy what you need and wrap this one up.

Robert

wrote:
....
Buy what you need and wrap this one up. Robert

Really nice work! Thank you for the lesson(s)!

Bill