Well a jury in Boston decided they wanted a pound of flesh rather than
cost effective justice and thus will start a multi year legal process
that
will accomplish little except the expenditure of obscene amounts of
money
that will line the pockets of the lawyers involved.

His execution will be little more than an anticlimactic footnote in
the
history of this tragedy.

The process will certainly make a martyr of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev in the
ISIS
world, definitely not a desired outcome.

Putting him in an iron cage in Colorado, out of sight, out of mind,
would
certainly more be less costly and far more effective.

What have you heard from the Unabomber, or the ShoeBomber lately?

Must qualify this post since having been in an execution chamber when
I was still a young man may slant my outlook on capital punishment,
but doubt it.

Off the stump.

Lew

Lew Hodgett wrote:


The process will certainly make a martyr of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev in the
ISIS
world, definitely not a desired outcome.

What a stupid statement, Lew. That is so damned foolsih as to not even
warrent an argument. You just do ahead and keep your head up your liberal
thinking ass and be happy.



Putting him in an iron cage in Colorado, out of sight, out of mind,
would
certainly more be less costly and far more effective.

If you say so.



What have you heard from the Unabomber, or the ShoeBomber lately?

What have you heard from any of the executed criminals lately?



Must qualify this post since having been in an execution chamber when
I was still a young man may slant my outlook on capital punishment,
but doubt it.

Execution is an unpleasant though and process, regardless of how much we may
feel it is appropriate, but...



Off the stump.


Not likely...

--

-Mike-

Mike Marlow wrote:
Execution is an unpleasant though and process, regardless of how much
we may feel it is appropriate, but...

I'll be surprised if you couldn't find volunteers from among the 17
amputees that got that way at his hand.

On 5/15/2015 8:42 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Lew Hodgett wrote:


The process will certainly make a martyr of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev in the
ISIS
world, definitely not a desired outcome.

What a stupid statement, Lew. That is so damned foolsih as to not even
warrent an argument. You just do ahead and keep your head up your liberal
thinking ass and be happy.



I'm far from a liberal, but I agree with Lew.

Over the next ten years or so millions of our tax dollars will be spent
on his appeal. After all of that, if he is put to death he will become
an ISIS hero.

I agree he should have been executed months ago, but I'm looking at a
more realistic solution. Toss him in a tiny room and let him suffer.

He is going to be dead. We won't have to feed the slime or let him
out of his cell. Not much cost. And it is so fitting for someone
who walked up to his brother and shot him in the head. Really.
I'm surprised he didn't shoot himself right after. But he hid in a boat.

Martin

On 5/15/2015 7:29 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
Well a jury in Boston decided they wanted a pound of flesh rather than
cost effective justice and thus will start a multi year legal process
that
will accomplish little except the expenditure of obscene amounts of
money
that will line the pockets of the lawyers involved.

His execution will be little more than an anticlimactic footnote in
the
history of this tragedy.

The process will certainly make a martyr of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev in the
ISIS
world, definitely not a desired outcome.

Putting him in an iron cage in Colorado, out of sight, out of mind,
would
certainly more be less costly and far more effective.

What have you heard from the Unabomber, or the ShoeBomber lately?

Must qualify this post since having been in an execution chamber when
I was still a young man may slant my outlook on capital punishment,
but doubt it.

Off the stump.

Lew

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote:

I'm far from a liberal, but I agree with Lew.

Over the next ten years or so millions of our tax dollars will be
spent on his appeal. After all of that, if he is put to death he
will become an ISIS hero.

I agree he should have been executed months ago, but I'm looking at
a more realistic solution. Toss him in a tiny room and let him
suffer.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
SFWIW.

You can incarcerate someone in a high security jail for about
$50,000/year.

You will be lucky if you can limit your legal fees to $3,000,000 to
actually
execute somebody.

$3,000,000/$50,000/year = 60 years in a cell.

Chances are pretty good that legal fees will exceed $3,000,000 and he
won't
live to 80 years, but if he does, you're still ahead of the game.

Lew

On 5/15/2015 9:00 PM, Baxter wrote:
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in news:55568f85$0$44075
:


[snip]

Must qualify this post since having been in an execution chamber when
I was still a young man may slant my outlook on capital punishment,
but doubt it.

Off the stump.

Agreed. ISIS types *want* to die at the hand of the "infidel" so they
will get those 72 virgins - or whatever.


Works for me. They also want Sharia law and think we're dumbasses (and
they'd be correct in many instances if only looking at our highly
visible politiciansg).

Make their day. Let him meet 72 Virginians who will then proceed to
stone him to death. LOL!

On 5/16/2015 12:28 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote:

I'm far from a liberal, but I agree with Lew.

Over the next ten years or so millions of our tax dollars will be
spent on his appeal. After all of that, if he is put to death he
will become an ISIS hero.

I agree he should have been executed months ago, but I'm looking at
a more realistic solution. Toss him in a tiny room and let him
suffer.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
SFWIW.

You can incarcerate someone in a high security jail for about
$50,000/year.

You will be lucky if you can limit your legal fees to $3,000,000 to
actually
execute somebody.

$3,000,000/$50,000/year = 60 years in a cell.

Chances are pretty good that legal fees will exceed $3,000,000 and he
won't
live to 80 years, but if he does, you're still ahead of the game.


Point taken but FWIW, the per cell cost for Solitary or ASU is closer to
$75,000 vs ~$25,000 for imprisonment in general population. Cost of
either doesn't vary all that much between state department of
corrections or Federal Bureau of Prisons.

On Friday, May 15, 2015 at 10:31:24 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I'm far from a liberal, but I agree with Lew.

Over the next ten years or so millions of our tax dollars will be spent
on his appeal. After all of that, if he is put to death he will become
an ISIS hero.

I agree he should have been executed months ago, but I'm looking at a
more realistic solution. Toss him in a tiny room and let him suffer.

I'm on board with that. Not too long ago I watched fascinating documentary on what it costs to maintain a prisoner on death row, with encouraged me to do additional reading on the subject. Down here in Texas, incarceration of prisoners vary by type of prison and where it is located. Our cost to incarcerate is about $ 35,000 a year when it is all said and done.

This includes room and board for prisoners, cost of plant and equipment, health care, rehabilitation costs, clothing, improvements and maintenance, etc.

35K does NOT include ancillary fees that come from the state budget related to prison costs such as retirement pensions for workers, their continued health care after retirement, contributory retirement programs such as a 401K, or insurance benefits extended to the employee families. These come from a state fund that is part of the state budget and those costs are included with the same funds that pay for the other state employees that have non prison related jobs. It also does not cover the costs incurred if an employee is injured by a prisoner while on the job, nor does it allow for legal defense of the state if they are sued by prisoners while incarcerated. While the actual number for the aforementioned costs are hard to pin down, with a permanent prison population approaching 200,000 in our state, most agree the above mentioned costs are somewhere in the 5K per prisoner ball park.

However, as Ed pointed out, those formulas and assumptions are only the very basic starting point to determine the cost when calculating the dollar burden of a death row inmate. Time on death row for the average prisoner is now averaging a whopping 15 years. During this time the prisoner lives in a cell by with no cell mate. So just one to a compartment. There are endless appeals that drag through the court system tying up judges, taxpayers, taxpayer paid attorneys (death penalty cases have an automatic appeal usually paid for by the state)that have staff costs, more court costs as attorneys refine strategies, etc. As an average, it has been reported that the total cost of putting one to death in Texas including the time needed to put together the original case, try the original case, then the subsequent years of incarceration and appeals is somewhere around 8 million dollars.

So simple numbers would carry the deal for me. I have also read that the Supermax prisons carry an additional 20% cost burden to operate, but that is more than offset by the fact that Supermax inmates are facing life without parole, so no attorneys, no retrials, no judges, no court costs, no use of state facilities, nothing. They simply close the door behind the prisoner and lock it.

Which brings another salient point, and that is matyrdom. These guys do this for the promise of being a martyr, but probably more importantly for the notoriety. I can think of nothing more suiting that to have them simply slip away from memory into insignificance. Few know that guy's name now, and in 10 years no one will. In Supermax, he would simply wither and dies. On death row, every appeal will be eagerly reported by the press. Each aspect will be debated on all sides, for and against. As time goes on, speculation by budding college lawyers will wonder if they need to investigate his case themselves. And around the actual time of execution, the national press coverage will bring him back into the spotlight.

Not for me. Toss his ass in a hole, lock the door behind him and let him rot.

Robert

Bill wrote:
Mike Marlow wrote:
Execution is an unpleasant though and process, regardless of how much
we may feel it is appropriate, but...

I'll be surprised if you couldn't find volunteers from among the 17
amputees that got that way at his hand.
Probably some of the victims still have several hundreds of thousands of
dollars in unpaid hospital bills. They probably are passionate enough to
help.

On 5/16/2015 12:28 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote:

You will be lucky if you can limit your legal fees to $3,000,000 to
actually
execute somebody.

I hereby volunteer to take care of that problem for $.08/round, starting
with his gonads, so he knows those virgins will remain so.

--
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Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
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http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 5/16/2015 8:11 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 5/16/2015 12:28 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote:

You will be lucky if you can limit your legal fees to $3,000,000 to
actually
execute somebody.

I hereby volunteer to take care of that problem for $.08/round, starting
with his gonads, so he knows those virgins will remain so.

You're either making a personal contribution to the project or you're
out of touch with ammunition pricesg Even the lowly .22 cal LR is
running more than $0.08/round.

A better idea if you wish to do this with a gun. .177 or .22 pellet
rifle (hey! it's relatively Green). Plenty of penetration (my Gamo will
shove a .177 pellet through 3/4" plywood) to ruin his day (and his
gonads) it's just going to take a bit longer causing him much more pain,
etc. Think: Death By a Thousand Cuts

g

On 5/15/2015 7:29 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
Well a jury in Boston decided they wanted a pound of flesh rather than
cost effective justice and thus will start a multi year legal process
that
will accomplish little except the expenditure of obscene amounts of
money
that will line the pockets of the lawyers involved.

His execution will be little more than an anticlimactic footnote in
the
history of this tragedy.

The process will certainly make a martyr of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev in the
ISIS
world, definitely not a desired outcome.

Putting him in an iron cage in Colorado, out of sight, out of mind,
would
certainly more be less costly and far more effective.

What have you heard from the Unabomber, or the ShoeBomber lately?

Must qualify this post since having been in an execution chamber when
I was still a young man may slant my outlook on capital punishment,
but doubt it.

Off the stump.

Lew



He is guilty and because no one suspected him of being a murderer before
his cowardly act, he is unpredictable, and therefore not salvageable.
A bullet to his head now, is the simplest and best solution.

On 5/16/2015 8:53 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 5/16/2015 8:11 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 5/16/2015 12:28 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote:

You will be lucky if you can limit your legal fees to $3,000,000 to
actually
execute somebody.

I hereby volunteer to take care of that problem for $.08/round, starting
with his gonads, so he knows those virgins will remain so.

You're either making a personal contribution to the project or you're
out of touch with ammunition pricesg Even the lowly .22 cal LR is
running more than $0.08/round.

He shoots pretty often compared to most, perhaps you don't know how to
get .22 rounds less expensively. ;~)

On 5/15/2015 9:00 PM, Baxter wrote:
"Lew Hodgett" wrote in news:55568f85$0$44075
:

Well a jury in Boston decided they wanted a pound of flesh rather than
cost effective justice and thus will start a multi year legal process
that
will accomplish little except the expenditure of obscene amounts of
money
that will line the pockets of the lawyers involved.

His execution will be little more than an anticlimactic footnote in
the
history of this tragedy.

The process will certainly make a martyr of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev in the
ISIS
world, definitely not a desired outcome.

Putting him in an iron cage in Colorado, out of sight, out of mind,
would
certainly more be less costly and far more effective.

What have you heard from the Unabomber, or the ShoeBomber lately?

Must qualify this post since having been in an execution chamber when
I was still a young man may slant my outlook on capital punishment,
but doubt it.

Off the stump.

Agreed. ISIS types *want* to die at the hand of the "infidel" so they
will get those 72 virgins - or whatever.




Oh! is it no up to 72 virgins now ??? ;~)

On 5/16/2015 8:53 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 5/16/2015 8:11 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 5/16/2015 12:28 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote:

You will be lucky if you can limit your legal fees to $3,000,000 to
actually
execute somebody.

I hereby volunteer to take care of that problem for $.08/round, starting
with his gonads, so he knows those virgins will remain so.

You're either making a personal contribution to the project or you're
out of touch with ammunition pricesg Even the lowly .22 cal LR is
running more than $0.08/round.

Not to worry. I keep an automated ammo wiki on my desktop/cell phone and
check it periodically daily.

Actually, local Gander's had Remington "Bucket of Bullets", 1400/$79.99,
yesterday, perfect for dispatching this type vermin.
(don't mind the necessity for extra cleaning for a good cause)

A better idea if you wish to do this with a gun. .177 or .22 pellet
rifle (hey! it's relatively Green). Plenty of penetration (my Gamo will
shove a .177 pellet through 3/4" plywood) to ruin his day (and his
gonads) it's just going to take a bit longer causing him much more pain,
etc. Think: Death By a Thousand Cuts

g

Was not planning on being in a hurry ... and using all 1400 rounds.

--
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Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
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http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Fri, 15 May 2015 17:29:57 -0700, Lew Hodgett wrote:

Well a jury in Boston decided they wanted a pound of flesh rather than
cost effective justice and thus will start a multi year legal process
that will accomplish little except the expenditure of obscene amounts of
money that will line the pockets of the lawyers involved.


That's a problem in our legal system, not an indictment of capital
punishment.


Putting him in an iron cage in Colorado, out of sight, out of mind,
would certainly more be less costly and far more effective.

I suspect that if he were put in the general prison population he
wouldn't live long anyway.

Personally, I believe in punishment that fits the crime. Execution by
lethal injection is much too good for him. Strapping him to a pressure
cooker bomb might be more fitting.

On 5/16/2015 9:30 AM, Leon wrote:
On 5/16/2015 8:53 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 5/16/2015 8:11 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 5/16/2015 12:28 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote:

You will be lucky if you can limit your legal fees to $3,000,000 to
actually
execute somebody.

I hereby volunteer to take care of that problem for $.08/round, starting
with his gonads, so he knows those virgins will remain so.

You're either making a personal contribution to the project or you're
out of touch with ammunition pricesg Even the lowly .22 cal LR is
running more than $0.08/round.

He shoots pretty often compared to most, perhaps you don't know how to
get .22 rounds less expensively. ;~)




I do as well. I recently bought 4 bricks at $46 each and thought that I
was stealing them at that price. That's a tad over $0.09/round before
you add shipping. Granted, NOS, WAS much cheaper and if you're willing
to use 5 or 6 year old ammo, you can do it for around $0.045/round.

Problem has (and continues to be) finding .22 cal ammo at ANY price.
Heck, I last paid less than $0.30/round for commercial 5.56mm. I'd be
more than happy to help him shuffle off using that (call me a big
spender) but I suspect it wouldn't take as long.

On 5/16/2015 11:20 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 5/16/2015 8:53 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 5/16/2015 8:11 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 5/16/2015 12:28 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote:

You will be lucky if you can limit your legal fees to $3,000,000 to
actually
execute somebody.

I hereby volunteer to take care of that problem for $.08/round, starting
with his gonads, so he knows those virgins will remain so.

You're either making a personal contribution to the project or you're
out of touch with ammunition pricesg Even the lowly .22 cal LR is
running more than $0.08/round.

Not to worry. I keep an automated ammo wiki on my desktop/cell phone and
check it periodically daily.

Actually, local Gander's had Remington "Bucket of Bullets", 1400/$79.99,
yesterday, perfect for dispatching this type vermin.

WTF? I bought the same bucket from Gander Mountain, a year or so ago
(their shelves were still pretty much bare of ALL handgun ammo at the
time) and they only dinged me $69.95 for it.

Here... take a look at militaryshooters.com I stumbled across them
recently and bought another case of 5.56mm Their stock, like everyone
else's, fluctuates, but their prices (especially the sales price) is
pretty decent and they do NOT gouge on shipping. Little light on .22
ammo but they DO carry it.


(don't mind the necessity for extra cleaning for a good cause)

A better idea if you wish to do this with a gun. .177 or .22 pellet
rifle (hey! it's relatively Green). Plenty of penetration (my Gamo will
shove a .177 pellet through 3/4" plywood) to ruin his day (and his
gonads) it's just going to take a bit longer causing him much more pain,
etc. Think: Death By a Thousand Cuts

g

Was not planning on being in a hurry ... and using all 1400 rounds.

Okay, then, "Death by Fourteen Hundred Cuts!" I'm down with that!

On 5/16/2015 11:40 AM, Larry Blanchard wrote:

Personally, I believe in punishment that fits the crime. Execution by
lethal injection is much too good for him. Strapping him to a pressure
cooker bomb might be more fitting.


+1

Having witnessed an execution by lethal injection, it's WAY too good for
them. Basically the only difference between putting him down that way
and putting him under for heart surgery is that they don't want him
coming back. Not so much as a twitch. We heard a sigh and he was gone.
It certainly did not fit the crime (three dead due to poisoning by
heavy metal, and a 4th who survived.)

Screw 'em!

Lew Hodgett wrote:

SFWIW.

You can incarcerate someone in a high security jail for about
$50,000/year.

You will be lucky if you can limit your legal fees to $3,000,000 to
actually
execute somebody.

$3,000,000/$50,000/year = 60 years in a cell.

Chances are pretty good that legal fees will exceed $3,000,000 and
he
won't
live to 80 years, but if he does, you're still ahead of the game.
---------------------------------------------------------------


"Unquestionably Confused" wrote:

Point taken but FWIW, the per cell cost for Solitary or ASU is
closer to $75,000 vs ~$25,000 for imprisonment in general
population. Cost of either doesn't vary all that much between state
department of corrections or Federal Bureau of Prisons.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
A "Lifer" is part of the general prison population while a death row
inmate
is handled as a special case, thus a lifer would be a $50K/yr example
while
a death row inmate would be a $75K/yr example; however, even at
$75K/yr
it's still a 40 year sentence.

A death sentence just makes no economic sense.

It's simply attempting to get a "pound of flesh" as retribution.



Lew

I knew the costs were high but these numbers blew my mind.

http://tinyurl.com/5m2fta


Lew

On 5/16/2015 1:41 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
I knew the costs were high but these numbers blew my mind.

http://tinyurl.com/5m2fta


Justice, when its imposition is warranted, should be appropriate as well
swift.

Rest assured when it's not, someone is profiting.

--
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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in news:55578bd5$0$59459$b1db1813
:

A death sentence just makes no economic sense.

The only reason it's expensive, Lew, is that people like you intentionally make it so.

It's simply attempting to get a "pound of flesh" as retribution.

No, it's about making 100% sure that this bloodthirsty, murderous ******* doesn't get the
opportunity to do it again.

"Lew Hodgett" wrote:

A death sentence just makes no economic sense.
------------------------------------------------------------------
"DougMiller" wrote:

The only reason it's expensive, Lew, is that people like you
intentionally make it so.
-----------------------------------------------
Sorry Charlie, the main reason the process is so long and expensive is
that it is so imperfect.

Unfortunately, innocent people have been executed, thus the lengthly
and expensive imperfect process to try to make sure it doesn't
happen again, which unfortunately it will.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

"Lew Hodgett" wrote:

It's simply attempting to get a "pound of flesh" as retribution.
---------------------------------------------------------
DougMiller" wrote:

No, it's about making 100% sure that this bloodthirsty, murderous
******* doesn't get the
opportunity to do it again.
---------------------------------------------------------
You make my point.

When is the last time that that someone who was sentenced to life
without the possibility of parole given the "opportunity to do it
again"?

Retribution is the name of your game.

Lew

On 5/16/2015 1:41 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
I knew the costs were high but these numbers blew my mind.

http://tinyurl.com/5m2fta


Not saying the figures are bogus, but I wouldn't take them as fact
considering the source. Look for separate studies from proponents AND
opponents. Toss out the highest estimates and the lowest, average the
rest and you're probably in the ball park.

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in news:5557e54c$0$44165$c3e8da3
:

"Lew Hodgett" wrote:

A death sentence just makes no economic sense.
------------------------------------------------------------------
"DougMiller" wrote:

The only reason it's expensive, Lew, is that people like you
intentionally make it so.
-----------------------------------------------
Sorry Charlie, the main reason the process is so long and expensive is
that it is so imperfect.

No, the reason it's expensive is that people like you insist on appeal after appeal after
appeal even when there is -- as in this case -- absolutely no question about guilt, your sole
purpose being to fatigue the justice system into giving in.

Unfortunately, innocent people have been executed, thus the lengthly
and expensive imperfect process to try to make sure it doesn't
happen again, which unfortunately it will.

Do you honestly believe that there is *any* possibility *at all* that this guy is actually
innocent?
--------------------------------------------------------------------

"Lew Hodgett" wrote:

It's simply attempting to get a "pound of flesh" as retribution.
---------------------------------------------------------
DougMiller" wrote:

No, it's about making 100% sure that this bloodthirsty, murderous
******* doesn't get the
opportunity to do it again.
---------------------------------------------------------
You make my point.

When is the last time that that someone who was sentenced to life
without the possibility of parole given the "opportunity to do it
again"?

Apparently on your planet, nobody ever escaped from a prison?

Retribution is the name of your game.

Don't presume to speak for me, Lew. This is about 100% prevention.

On 5/16/2015 7:48 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Lew Hodgett" wrote:

A death sentence just makes no economic sense.
------------------------------------------------------------------
"DougMiller" wrote:

The only reason it's expensive, Lew, is that people like you
intentionally make it so.
-----------------------------------------------
Sorry Charlie, the main reason the process is so long and expensive is
that it is so imperfect.

Unfortunately, innocent people have been executed, thus the lengthly
and expensive imperfect process to try to make sure it doesn't
happen again, which unfortunately it will.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

"Lew Hodgett" wrote:

It's simply attempting to get a "pound of flesh" as retribution.
---------------------------------------------------------
DougMiller" wrote:

No, it's about making 100% sure that this bloodthirsty, murderous
******* doesn't get the
opportunity to do it again.
---------------------------------------------------------
You make my point.

When is the last time that that someone who was sentenced to life
without the possibility of parole given the "opportunity to do it
again"?

The guy who killed Jeffrey Dahmer and another inmate was serving a life
without parole sentence at the time. You have other inmates and guards
killed all the time by "lifers."

Here in Illinois, inmates sentenced to life without parole and the death
penalty who were released by one of our felonious governors (George
Ryan, since you can tell the convicted governors here without a score
cardg) have murdered again.

Yes we have a complicated and lengthy appeals process. You cannot point
to more than one or two "Innocent" men sentenced to death who were
executed. The tip of the spear that spurred Ryan to commute and release
many death row inmates has not been shown to have actually been guilty
and the pawn used by the anti death penalty to have been innocent and used.

What's your feeling on curtailing the appeals process or removing that
option altogether if the condemned man, at sentencing, says "F**k you,
judge. I did it and I'd do it again in a heartbeat. In fact, take me
back to your chambers and I'll stick a pen in your eyes and then
sodomize you! You gutless wonders don't have the balls to execute me?"

How about the guy caught on video tape, identified without a doubt, who
turns a woman into a dugout canoe after he rapes her on a subway train?

I'm told there's a legal maxim in Texas: "Some people just need
killing" that officially or unofficially gives a wink and nudge to many
killings in that state.

Retribution is the name of your game.

So much as been stolen from the victim of these crimes and their
families, you're damn right it's about retribution.

Lew Hodgett wrote:
I knew the costs were high but these numbers blew my mind.

http://tinyurl.com/5m2fta

-------------------------------------------------------
"Unquestionably Confused" wrote:

Not saying the figures are bogus, but I wouldn't take them as fact
considering the source. Look for separate studies from proponents
AND opponents. Toss out the highest estimates and the lowest,
average the rest and you're probably in the ball park.

-----------------------------------------------------------
There were plenty of sources to choose from.

The orders of magnitude beyond my $3,000,000 estimate were such
that an error multiple of 100 among the possible sources would still
have yielded unbelievably large multiples.

The process is totally flawed.

The only ones who profit from the existing process are the lawyers.

Lew

What all of you are concurring on is the brokenness of the US legal system. Too bad he did not face Judge Roy Bean. (or even better, Black Jack Pershing of Urban Legend)

Deb

On 5/18/2015 6:36 AM, Dr. Deb wrote:
What all of you are concurring on is the brokenness of the US legal system. Too bad he did not face Judge Roy Bean. (or even better, Black Jack Pershing of Urban Legend)

And it will arguably remain "broken" (I prefer the term "perverted")
until such time that the products of law schools are prohibited from
serving in legislative branches at all levels.

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Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I'm far from a liberal, but I agree with Lew.

Over the next ten years or so millions of our tax dollars will be
spent
on his appeal. After all of that, if he is put to death he will
become
an ISIS hero.

I agree he should have been executed months ago, but I'm looking at
a
more realistic solution. Toss him in a tiny room and let him
suffer.
---------------------------------------------------------
wrote:

I'm on board with that. Not too long ago I watched fascinating
documentary on what it costs to maintain a prisoner on death row, with
encouraged me to do additional reading on the subject. Down here in
Texas, incarceration of prisoners vary by type of prison and where it
is located. Our cost to incarcerate is about $ 35,000 a year when it
is all said and done.

This includes room and board for prisoners, cost of plant and
equipment, health care, rehabilitation costs, clothing, improvements
and maintenance, etc.

35K does NOT include ancillary fees that come from the state budget
related to prison costs such as retirement pensions for workers, their
continued health care after retirement, contributory retirement
programs such as a 401K, or insurance benefits extended to the
employee families. These come from a state fund that is part of the
state budget and those costs are included with the same funds that pay
for the other state employees that have non prison related jobs. It
also does not cover the costs incurred if an employee is injured by a
prisoner while on the job, nor does it allow for legal defense of the
state if they are sued by prisoners while incarcerated. While the
actual number for the aforementioned costs are hard to pin down, with
a permanent prison population approaching 200,000 in our state, most
agree the above mentioned costs are somewhere in the 5K per prisoner
ball park.

However, as Ed pointed out, those formulas and assumptions are only
the very basic starting point to determine the cost when calculating
the dollar burden of a death row inmate. Time on death row for the
average prisoner is now averaging a whopping 15 years. During this
time the prisoner lives in a cell by with no cell mate. So just one
to a compartment. There are endless appeals that drag through the
court system tying up judges, taxpayers, taxpayer paid attorneys
(death penalty cases have an automatic appeal usually paid for by the
state)that have staff costs, more court costs as attorneys refine
strategies, etc. As an average, it has been reported that the total
cost of putting one to death in Texas including the time needed to put
together the original case, try the original case, then the subsequent
years of incarceration and appeals is somewhere around 8 million
dollars.

So simple numbers would carry the deal for me. I have also read that
the Supermax prisons carry an additional 20% cost burden to operate,
but that is more than offset by the fact that Supermax inmates are
facing life without parole, so no attorneys, no retrials, no judges,
no court costs, no use of state facilities, nothing. They simply
close the door behind the prisoner and lock it.

Which brings another salient point, and that is matyrdom. These guys
do this for the promise of being a martyr, but probably more
importantly for the notoriety. I can think of nothing more suiting
that to have them simply slip away from memory into insignificance.
Few know that guy's name now, and in 10 years no one will. In
Supermax, he would simply wither and dies. On death row, every appeal
will be eagerly reported by the press. Each aspect will be debated on
all sides, for and against. As time goes on, speculation by budding
college lawyers will wonder if they need to investigate his case
themselves. And around the actual time of execution, the national
press coverage will bring him back into the spotlight.

Not for me. Toss his ass in a hole, lock the door behind him and let
him rot.

Robert
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The numbers above illustrate the costs.

The total cost paid by the state of Texas to execute a person:
$8,000,000.

The annual cost to house an inmate: $35,000 plus another $5,000 or
$40,000.

SuperMax confinement adds another 20% or $8,000.

Add another $12,000 to cover administrative costs not covered
elsewhere.

Adjusted annual cost to house an inmate in a SuperMax facility:

$40,000 + $8,000 + $12,000 = $60,000/year.

$8,000,000 execution costs/ $60,000/year incarceration costs = 133+
years.

IMHO, A very high cost blood sport being practiced there in Texas in
the name
of justice.

Lew
..

Lew Hodgett" wrote:

" It's simply attempting to get a "pound of flesh" as retribution.

---------------------------------------------------------
"Unquestionably Confused" wrote:

Yes we have a complicated and lengthy appeals process. You cannot
point to more than one or two "Innocent" men sentenced to death who
were executed.
--------------------------------------------------------
Lew Hodgett" wrote:

Even ONE is ONE TOO MANY.
----------------------------------------------------
"Unquestionably Confused" wrote:

So much as been stolen from the victim of these crimes and their
families, you're damn right it's about retribution.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fortunately JUSTICE is not about retribution.

Lew

Lew Hodgett wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I'm far from a liberal, but I agree with Lew.

Over the next ten years or so millions of our tax dollars will be
spent
on his appeal. After all of that, if he is put to death he will
become
an ISIS hero.

I agree he should have been executed months ago, but I'm looking at
a
more realistic solution. Toss him in a tiny room and let him
suffer.
---------------------------------------------------------
wrote:

I'm on board with that. Not too long ago I watched fascinating
documentary on what it costs to maintain a prisoner on death row, with
encouraged me to do additional reading on the subject. Down here in
Texas, incarceration of prisoners vary by type of prison and where it
is located. Our cost to incarcerate is about $ 35,000 a year when it
is all said and done.

This includes room and board for prisoners, cost of plant and
equipment, health care, rehabilitation costs, clothing, improvements
and maintenance, etc.

35K does NOT include ancillary fees that come from the state budget
related to prison costs such as retirement pensions for workers, their
continued health care after retirement, contributory retirement
programs such as a 401K, or insurance benefits extended to the
employee families. These come from a state fund that is part of the
state budget and those costs are included with the same funds that pay
for the other state employees that have non prison related jobs. It
also does not cover the costs incurred if an employee is injured by a
prisoner while on the job, nor does it allow for legal defense of the
state if they are sued by prisoners while incarcerated. While the
actual number for the aforementioned costs are hard to pin down, with
a permanent prison population approaching 200,000 in our state, most
agree the above mentioned costs are somewhere in the 5K per prisoner
ball park.

However, as Ed pointed out, those formulas and assumptions are only
the very basic starting point to determine the cost when calculating
the dollar burden of a death row inmate. Time on death row for the
average prisoner is now averaging a whopping 15 years. During this
time the prisoner lives in a cell by with no cell mate. So just one
to a compartment. There are endless appeals that drag through the
court system tying up judges, taxpayers, taxpayer paid attorneys
(death penalty cases have an automatic appeal usually paid for by the
state)that have staff costs, more court costs as attorneys refine
strategies, etc. As an average, it has been reported that the total
cost of putting one to death in Texas including the time needed to put
together the original case, try the original case, then the subsequent
years of incarceration and appeals is somewhere around 8 million
dollars.

So simple numbers would carry the deal for me. I have also read that
the Supermax prisons carry an additional 20% cost burden to operate,
but that is more than offset by the fact that Supermax inmates are
facing life without parole, so no attorneys, no retrials, no judges,
no court costs, no use of state facilities, nothing. They simply
close the door behind the prisoner and lock it.

Which brings another salient point, and that is matyrdom. These guys
do this for the promise of being a martyr, but probably more
importantly for the notoriety. I can think of nothing more suiting
that to have them simply slip away from memory into insignificance.
Few know that guy's name now, and in 10 years no one will. In
Supermax, he would simply wither and dies. On death row, every appeal
will be eagerly reported by the press. Each aspect will be debated on
all sides, for and against. As time goes on, speculation by budding
college lawyers will wonder if they need to investigate his case
themselves. And around the actual time of execution, the national
press coverage will bring him back into the spotlight.

Not for me. Toss his ass in a hole, lock the door behind him and let
him rot.

Robert
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The numbers above illustrate the costs.

The total cost paid by the state of Texas to execute a person:
$8,000,000.

The annual cost to house an inmate: $35,000 plus another $5,000 or
$40,000.

SuperMax confinement adds another 20% or $8,000.

Add another $12,000 to cover administrative costs not covered
elsewhere.

Adjusted annual cost to house an inmate in a SuperMax facility:

$40,000 + $8,000 + $12,000 = $60,000/year.

$8,000,000 execution costs/ $60,000/year incarceration costs = 133+
years.

IMHO, A very high cost blood sport being practiced there in Texas in
the name
of justice.

Lew
.

For the sake of the people, terrorists not included, maybe we need an
express line.

On Monday, May 18, 2015 at 5:56:09 PM UTC-5, Lew Hodgett wrote:

IMHO, A very high cost blood sport being practiced there in Texas in
the name
of justice.

Lew

Not a blood sport, Lew. It is a relic of the law system from the days of when it worked properly. Decades ago, if a terrorist had been caught after killing a law enforcement officer, and then tried and convicted of killing many other innocent members of the general population, his demise would have been quick. The lubricant to hasten this process here in Texas would be the fact that he never denied doing any of it, but was proud of himself for doing so. As the kids say today, "back in the day" Boston Boy would have been dispatched in about three years, with only LIMITED appeals for clemency or retrial.

As Karl pointed out, now that Texas (and all other states) is run by lawyers and their ilk, no opportunity is left untouched if it could provide monetary benefit or notoriety for an attorney. The longer any issue is kept alive (in the name of justice, fair play, human rights and other highly moral declarations) the more money the lawyers make. I wouldn't believe that one in ten thousand attorneys care about human rights or the rights of those they defend.

Even if the state pays little or nothing to an attorney for a vigorous defense of their client, highly visible cases that have their dramatic updates and self promoting announcements of their client's case enhance the billable rate by a huge factor. It is literally free, national advertisement for an attorney that isn't "afraid of the odds or the hard cases". I was doing some work for one of the the attorneys that defended a few of David Kouresh's (sp?) disciples after the Waco debacle, and he got all of them off the hook by convincing the jury they were brainwashed. He told me that his phone started ringing during the trial and never stopped. Drug lords, embezzlers, bank robbers... all wanted his service. His response? Double his fees. And he told me, the phone never slowed down, nor did the retainers.

For attorneys, this is all just one big game played without any regard to right or wrong. We are the losers, you and me.

As Karl said, we in Texas have been perverted along with the rest of the legal system.

Robert

Lew Hodgett wrote:

IMHO, A very high cost blood sport being practiced there in Texas in
the name
of justice.
----------------------------------------------------
wrote:

Not a blood sport, Lew. It is a relic of the law system from the days
of when it worked properly. Decades ago, if a terrorist had been
caught after killing a law enforcement officer, and then tried and
convicted of killing many other innocent members of the general
population, his demise would have been quick. The lubricant to hasten
this process here in Texas would be the fact that he never denied
doing any of it, but was proud of himself for doing so. As the kids
say today, "back in the day" Boston Boy would have been dispatched in
about three years, with only LIMITED appeals for clemency or retrial.

As Karl pointed out, now that Texas (and all other states) is run by
lawyers and their ilk, no opportunity is left untouched if it could
provide monetary benefit or notoriety for an attorney. The longer any
issue is kept alive (in the name of justice, fair play, human rights
and other highly moral declarations) the more money the lawyers make.
I wouldn't believe that one in ten thousand attorneys care about human
rights or the rights of those they defend.

Even if the state pays little or nothing to an attorney for a vigorous
defense of their client, highly visible cases that have their dramatic
updates and self promoting announcements of their client's case
enhance the billable rate by a huge factor. It is literally free,
national advertisement for an attorney that isn't "afraid of the odds
or the hard cases". I was doing some work for one of the the
attorneys that defended a few of David Kouresh's (sp?) disciples after
the Waco debacle, and he got all of them off the hook by convincing
the jury they were brainwashed. He told me that his phone started
ringing during the trial and never stopped. Drug lords, embezzlers,
bank robbers... all wanted his service. His response? Double his
fees. And he told me, the phone never slowed down, nor did the
retainers.

For attorneys, this is all just one big game played without any regard
to right or wrong. We are the losers, you and me.

As Karl said, we in Texas have been perverted along with the rest of
the legal system.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Simple way to take the money off the table is to take the death
penalty off the table.

I've always maintained that the only people who make out in death
penalty cases are the attorneys.

Life without the chance of parole is probably a tougher sentence
than execution IMHO.

Knowing the rest of your life will be spent sharing an 8 x 12 cage
with at least one other person isn't exactly a case of chopped liver.

You also eliminate the possibility of making a mistake
and executing an innocent person.

The elimination of the cost of execution is by itself just good
economics.

Every thing else is just bonus money.

There is no intent that these people will be rehabilitated, it is
simply using the lowest cost method to keep a problem person
off the street.


Lew



Lew

On 5/18/2015 11:41 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
Lew Hodgett wrote:

IMHO, A very high cost blood sport being practiced there in Texas in
the name
of justice.
----------------------------------------------------
wrote:

Not a blood sport, Lew. It is a relic of the law system from the days
of when it worked properly. Decades ago, if a terrorist had been
caught after killing a law enforcement officer, and then tried and
convicted of killing many other innocent members of the general
population, his demise would have been quick. The lubricant to hasten
this process here in Texas would be the fact that he never denied
doing any of it, but was proud of himself for doing so. As the kids
say today, "back in the day" Boston Boy would have been dispatched in
about three years, with only LIMITED appeals for clemency or retrial.

As Karl pointed out, now that Texas (and all other states) is run by
lawyers and their ilk, no opportunity is left untouched if it could
provide monetary benefit or notoriety for an attorney. The longer any
issue is kept alive (in the name of justice, fair play, human rights
and other highly moral declarations) the more money the lawyers make.
I wouldn't believe that one in ten thousand attorneys care about human
rights or the rights of those they defend.

Even if the state pays little or nothing to an attorney for a vigorous
defense of their client, highly visible cases that have their dramatic
updates and self promoting announcements of their client's case
enhance the billable rate by a huge factor. It is literally free,
national advertisement for an attorney that isn't "afraid of the odds
or the hard cases". I was doing some work for one of the the
attorneys that defended a few of David Kouresh's (sp?) disciples after
the Waco debacle, and he got all of them off the hook by convincing
the jury they were brainwashed. He told me that his phone started
ringing during the trial and never stopped. Drug lords, embezzlers,
bank robbers... all wanted his service. His response? Double his
fees. And he told me, the phone never slowed down, nor did the
retainers.

For attorneys, this is all just one big game played without any regard
to right or wrong. We are the losers, you and me.

As Karl said, we in Texas have been perverted along with the rest of
the legal system.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Simple way to take the money off the table is to take the death
penalty off the table.

It will still be way too costly to house a murderer.


I've always maintained that the only people who make out in death
penalty cases are the attorneys.

Life without the chance of parole is probably a tougher sentence
than execution IMHO.

Others would disagree.


Knowing the rest of your life will be spent sharing an 8 x 12 cage
with at least one other person isn't exactly a case of chopped liver.

You also eliminate the possibility of making a mistake
and executing an innocent person.

We are human, we make mistakes and always will. The tragic mistake is
second guessing what is obvious and not taking action.



The elimination of the cost of execution is by itself just good
economics.

Hardly, A bullet the moment the murderer is pronounced guilty in the
court room on TV will go a long way to cut down on those that think that
death is decades down the road.








Every thing else is just bonus money.

There is no intent that these people will be rehabilitated, it is
simply using the lowest cost method to keep a problem person
off the street.


Lew



Lew