I've already fielded some advice about alternatives to square (through)
mortises. But for now - at least until I find out what a pain they are -
I intend to try to make some.

From what I can glean so far, the chief advantage of mortise chisels
seems to be their thickness; they are nice and strong for lever action.
But I won't be chiseling out the whole mortise, only the corners. I'm
wondering if mortise chisels have any advantage over standard bevel edge
chisels for that task.

If so, would you get a chisel the full width of the mortise? Or perhaps
one size narrower?

One more thing: I find myself wondering if it's not easier to get a
straight, square edge if I start out with an oval mortise that is
slightly less long than the finished mortise will be. Otherwise I would
need to somehow chisel an edge that's exactly tangent to the
semicircular edge of the routed mortise. Any thoughts?

On 4/29/2015 4:15 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
I've already fielded some advice about alternatives to square (through)
mortises. But for now - at least until I find out what a pain they are -
I intend to try to make some.

From what I can glean so far, the chief advantage of mortise chisels
seems to be their thickness; they are nice and strong for lever action.
But I won't be chiseling out the whole mortise, only the corners. I'm
wondering if mortise chisels have any advantage over standard bevel edge
chisels for that task.

If so, would you get a chisel the full width of the mortise? Or perhaps
one size narrower?

One more thing: I find myself wondering if it's not easier to get a
straight, square edge if I start out with an oval mortise that is
slightly less long than the finished mortise will be. Otherwise I would
need to somehow chisel an edge that's exactly tangent to the
semicircular edge of the routed mortise. Any thoughts?

Consider also that there are also square cut chisels. They cut both
sides of the corner. Swingman uses/has one that looks like a
conventional chisel and I have one that indexes.

His
http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/A!CC.htm


I would advise establishing the corners with the chisel first and then
using the router to cut the mortise. Then clean up with the chisel.

Mine is more intended to clean up shallow hinge mortises.

http://www.rockler.com/spring-loaded-corner-chisel

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 2:15:59 PM UTC-7, Greg Guarino wrote:
[about square through mortises]

From what I can glean so far, the chief advantage of mortise chisels
seems to be their thickness; they are nice and strong for lever action.
But I won't be chiseling out the whole mortise, only the corners. I'm
wondering if mortise chisels have any advantage over standard bevel edge
chisels for that task.

If the bevel edge chisel can take a mallet blow on the handle, I'd say it's good
enough for squaring a mainly-cut mortise. It's my understanding
that mortise chisels are most useful for mortises that match the chisel
width, because they guide in the mortise; bevel chisels are more
for freehand-ish cutting, which means you can use any size that
fits, but you have to guide the cuts with care.

Corner chisels are scary: how do I trust an edge, if I can't sharpen it?
And, how do I get a good cut in both directions at once? One foresees
a possibly protracted and unpleasant learning experience.

Greg Guarino wrote in
:

From what I can glean so far, the chief advantage of mortise chisels
seems to be their thickness; they are nice and strong for lever
action. But I won't be chiseling out the whole mortise, only the
corners. I'm wondering if mortise chisels have any advantage over
standard bevel edge chisels for that task.

No - it would be a pain to use a mortise chisel to square up the
end of the mortise. If you really want a special tool, the thing
you're looking for is a corner chisel. A firmer chisel would be
the ideal thing, but a regular bevel edge chisel is fine.

If so, would you get a chisel the full width of the mortise? Or
perhaps one size narrower?

You want a chisel the same width as the mortise (in fact, if
you were doing this handtool style, the width of the chisel
defines the width of the mortise, and you cut your tenons to
match the chisel).

One more thing: I find myself wondering if it's not easier to get a
straight, square edge if I start out with an oval mortise that is
slightly less long than the finished mortise will be. Otherwise I
would need to somehow chisel an edge that's exactly tangent to the
semicircular edge of the routed mortise. Any thoughts?

There's two things to consider here. One is the mechanical
locating of the tenon by the end of the mortise. For that
you want to cut the end square to the sides, but if there's
a little divot where the router cut goes beyond, it doesn't
matter - the tenon will be located by the corners.

The other is the cosmetic. For a normal blind mortise with
a shouldered tenon, you don't care what the ends of the
mortise look like, because they're hidden. But in your
case as I recall you have thru mortises, so the ends are
exposed. In this case I think I would stop the router
just a hair shy, and use the chisel to cut to the layout
line.

John

On 4/29/2015 5:40 PM, Leon wrote:

Consider also that there are also square cut chisels. They cut both
sides of the corner. Swingman uses/has one that looks like a
conventional chisel and I have one that indexes.

His
http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/A!CC.htm

I have gotten conflicting advice on those, even in this thread. My
sharpening skills are in their infancy, but I have had a *minor* amount
of success using one of those roller guides for regular chisels and
plane irons. Would a person who can scarcely sharpen a regular chisel be
able to use a corner chisel efficiently?

I would advise establishing the corners with the chisel first and then
using the router to cut the mortise. Then clean up with the chisel.

Interesting.

On 4/29/2015 6:58 PM, whit3rd wrote:
Corner chisels are scary: how do I trust an edge, if I can't sharpen it?
And, how do I get a good cut in both directions at once? One foresees
a possibly protracted and unpleasant learning experience.

Well, there's some of that conflicting advice I mentioned in my reply to
Leon. And the sharpening issue has been brought up elsewhere. But can I
assume you have not tried corner chisels yourself?

On 4/29/2015 9:02 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Greg Guarino wrote in
:

From what I can glean so far, the chief advantage of mortise chisels
seems to be their thickness; they are nice and strong for lever
action. But I won't be chiseling out the whole mortise, only the
corners. I'm wondering if mortise chisels have any advantage over
standard bevel edge chisels for that task.

No - it would be a pain to use a mortise chisel to square up the
end of the mortise.

Interesting. Why is that?

If you really want a special tool, the thing
you're looking for is a corner chisel. A firmer chisel would be
the ideal thing, but a regular bevel edge chisel is fine.

OK. I just looked up "Firmer Chisel". I see they have a rectangular
cross-section. Can you help me grasp why that would be better for this use?

Incidentally, I made a quick sloppy first attempt using bevel-edge
chisels. One thing I noticed right away was that when I make the cut
parallel to the grain, I have to be very gentle and not drive the chisel
in very far or else it tends to split the wood. I'm thinking that -
besides going a little at a time - I'll probably be better off making
the "perpendicular-to-the-grain" cut first, then removing that small
chip with the parallel-to-the-grain cut. And repeat... and repeat ...

If so, would you get a chisel the full width of the mortise? Or
perhaps one size narrower?

You want a chisel the same width as the mortise
snip

I'm guessing now that this is why you recommend a firmer chisel. Once
you get a little way in, the edges of the chisel will tend to guide it.


One more thing: I find myself wondering if it's not easier to get a
straight, square edge if I start out with an oval mortise that is
slightly less long than the finished mortise will be. Otherwise I
would need to somehow chisel an edge that's exactly tangent to the
semicircular edge of the routed mortise. Any thoughts?

snip

But in your
case as I recall you have thru mortises, so the ends are
exposed. In this case I think I would stop the router
just a hair shy, and use the chisel to cut to the layout
line.

That's what I was thinking too. Too difficult to get the chisel exactly
perfect at the edge of the semicircle, I would think.

I've always understood, for cleaning up mortises, and other fine tuned cuts, one uses a paring chisel. They are supposed to be kept razor sharp, so as to use your muscle/hand pushing to do the cutting, not by striking with a mallet. Roy Underwood uses paring chisels, for these kinds of cuts and clean-ups, and often notes not to use a mallet. They should be sharp enough to cut with hand-pressure force.

I have several paring chisels and use them fairly often. From experience, for these kinds of cuts, a paring chisel can't be beat.

Check Ebay for Sheffield, Addis, Sorby, or Marples paring chisels and compare pricing against other purchasing options. *I like old tools. Some years ago, I bought 1/4", 3/8", 1/2" & 1" original Robert Sorby's for about $50 a piece.

Sonny

Greg Guarino wrote in
:

On 4/29/2015 9:02 PM, John McCoy wrote:
Greg Guarino wrote in
:

From what I can glean so far, the chief advantage of mortise
chisels
seems to be their thickness; they are nice and strong for lever
action. But I won't be chiseling out the whole mortise, only the
corners. I'm wondering if mortise chisels have any advantage over
standard bevel edge chisels for that task.

No - it would be a pain to use a mortise chisel to square up the
end of the mortise.

Interesting. Why is that?

A mortise chisel is heavy and unweildy compared to a bench
chisel, and gives you no advantage in cutting the little
wedge out of the corner.

If you really want a special tool, the thing
you're looking for is a corner chisel. A firmer chisel would be
the ideal thing, but a regular bevel edge chisel is fine.

OK. I just looked up "Firmer Chisel". I see they have a rectangular
cross-section. Can you help me grasp why that would be better for this
use?

I'm guessing now that this is why you recommend a firmer chisel. Once
you get a little way in, the edges of the chisel will tend to guide
it.

Exactly. That said, I just use a bevel edge chisel when I
need to clean up the end of a mortise...I think I have a
couple of firmer chisels somewhere, but it's easier to just
grab one of the set that I usually use than to go look for
them.

John

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 10:24:17 AM UTC-5, Sonny wrote:
Roy Underwood uses paring chisels, for these kinds of cuts and clean-ups, and often notes not to use a mallet.

Check that. Should be Roy Underhill.

Sonny

Greg Guarino wrote in
:

Incidentally, I made a quick sloppy first attempt using bevel-edge
chisels. One thing I noticed right away was that when I make the cut
parallel to the grain, I have to be very gentle and not drive the
chisel in very far or else it tends to split the wood. I'm thinking
that - besides going a little at a time - I'll probably be better off
making the "perpendicular-to-the-grain" cut first, then removing that
small chip with the parallel-to-the-grain cut. And repeat... and
repeat ...

Oh, yeah, I meant to mention that. Especially if the mortise
is near the end of a piece, you need to go carefully and do
the cross-grain cut before the long grain to avoid splitting
or blowing a chunk out the end.

Some people leave their stock long and cut the mortises, and
then trim to length, to help avoid problems. I don't, but
I usually don't use a mallet if I have to clean up the end
of a mortise, and just hit the chisel with my palm.

BTW, I usually use two chisels - a narrow one for the cross-
grain, and a wide one for the longways cut.

John

Greg Guarino wrote:
On 4/29/2015 9:02 PM, John McCoy wrote:

But in your
case as I recall you have thru mortises, so the ends are
exposed. In this case I think I would stop the router
just a hair shy, and use the chisel to cut to the layout
line.

That's what I was thinking too. Too difficult to get the chisel
exactly perfect at the edge of the semicircle, I would think.

Right. So use a knife.

In your case, the only thing that matters is that the router mortice be
squared at the outside and that area can be very shallow, rest of the
mortice can be whatever as long as the tenon fits. I find it simpler to
square up an area with a sharp knife rather than a chisel.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Thu, 30 Apr 2015 10:00:47 -0400, Greg Guarino wrote:

That's what I was thinking too. Too difficult to get the chisel exactly
perfect at the edge of the semicircle, I would think.

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just round over the tenon?

On 4/30/2015 2:22 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Thu, 30 Apr 2015 10:00:47 -0400, Greg Guarino wrote:

That's what I was thinking too. Too difficult to get the chisel exactly
perfect at the edge of the semicircle, I would think.

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just round over the tenon?

My design includes through tenons. But otherwise, I think you'd be right.

On Thu, 30 Apr 2015 14:24:51 -0400, Greg Guarino
wrote:

On 4/30/2015 2:22 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Thu, 30 Apr 2015 10:00:47 -0400, Greg Guarino wrote:

That's what I was thinking too. Too difficult to get the chisel exactly
perfect at the edge of the semicircle, I would think.

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just round over the tenon?

My design includes through tenons. But otherwise, I think you'd be right.

Does the design require through tenons for any reason other then just
"looks" or just to prove that you can do it? If not, I would fake it
and have the job done, probably in less time than it takes to hand
carve just one through tenon to perfection.

Jerry O.

Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Thu, 30 Apr 2015 10:00:47 -0400, Greg Guarino wrote:

That's what I was thinking too. Too difficult to get the chisel
exactly perfect at the edge of the semicircle, I would think.

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just round over the tenon?

That's exactly what I was thinking.

--

-Mike-

Working from memory, the answers to my question include:

Use a corner chisel
Corner chisels are too hard to sharpen
Use a regular bevel-edge chisel
Use a firmer chisel (had to look that one up)
Use a paring chisel, no mallet
Use a knife
Change the design
"Fake" the through tenon.

.... which is what I've come to expect. I could complain that my range of
options - rather than being winnowed down - only *expands* when I ask a
question here, but that's part of the fun, and how I learn. I know I'll
need to do my own blundering about no matter what answers I get.

So keep it up. Does anyone recommend an electric carving knife? An
dental drill? A laser?

I am still very interested in anyone's personal experience with a corner
chisel, specifically whether a novice can keep one adequately sharp.

Greg Guarino writes:
Working from memory, the answers to my question include:

Use a corner chisel
Corner chisels are too hard to sharpen
Use a regular bevel-edge chisel
Use a firmer chisel (had to look that one up)
Use a paring chisel, no mallet
Use a knife
Change the design
"Fake" the through tenon.

... which is what I've come to expect. I could complain that my range of
options - rather than being winnowed down - only *expands* when I ask a
question here, but that's part of the fun, and how I learn. I know I'll
need to do my own blundering about no matter what answers I get.

So keep it up. Does anyone recommend an electric carving knife? An
dental drill? A laser?


It could be that you're overcomplicating the question. Any
of the above will work just fine. Pick one and try it.
Experience will guide you towards the optimal solution, in time.

I am still very interested in anyone's personal experience with a corner
chisel, specifically whether a novice can keep one adequately sharp.

It's not much more complicated than sharpening any edged tool, and
much simpler than sharpening a gouge. Keep the back
flat and touch up the bevel with a slipstone or a popsicle stick
with self-adhesive sandpaper. Use a file if the edge is significantly
damaged.

Personally, when I chop the mortise by hand, I use a mortise
chisel. When I use the mortising attachement on the drill
press or the GI mortiser, I clean up the flats with a sharp
paring chisel, no mallet. I've never needed to clean up the
ends of a mortise, even when using the horizontal mortiser
where leaving a half-round gap at the end of the mortise if
the tenon isn't rounded has no effect on structural integrity,
indeed it leaves a bit of room for excess glue.

FWIW, I find the corner chisel more useful with shallow mortises,
like those for hinges (for which the self-registering spring-loaded
cleanup chisel is perfect).

On Fri, 01 May 2015 10:11:18 -0400
Greg Guarino wrote:

I am still very interested in anyone's personal experience with a
corner chisel, specifically whether a novice can keep one adequately
sharp.

sharpening should be considered a skill learneed by novice/apprentice
it can be a challenge but it's a skill that's real good to be had

i cringe when i see videos and the sparks are flying while someone
"sharpens" their $200+ bowl gouge

On 5/1/2015 10:11 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
Working from memory, the answers to my question include:

Use a corner chisel
Corner chisels are too hard to sharpen
Use a regular bevel-edge chisel
Use a firmer chisel (had to look that one up)
Use a paring chisel, no mallet
Use a knife
Change the design
"Fake" the through tenon.

... which is what I've come to expect. I could complain that my range of
options - rather than being winnowed down - only *expands* when I ask a
question here, but that's part of the fun, and how I learn. I know I'll
need to do my own blundering about no matter what answers I get.

So keep it up. Does anyone recommend an electric carving knife? An
dental drill? A laser?

I am still very interested in anyone's personal experience with a corner
chisel, specifically whether a novice can keep one adequately sharp.



It really does not matter how WE would create a mortise.

You've received lots of choices, grab some scrap and some tools, make a
few mortices, and decide what works best for YOU.

Greg Guarino wrote:

So keep it up. Does anyone recommend an electric carving knife? An
dental drill? A laser?


Well, in my personal experience, I have found the laser to be the most
universal, and the most effective tool. One can pare wood, teeth, bone
material, and a number of other substances with a decent quality laser. Of
course, I'd suggest looking at Harbor Freight before buying a higher priced
laser somewhere else... I'm not big on electric carving knives - too old of
a technology that is too limited in it's useful application. Besides -
electric carving knives make you look like Chef Tel inestead of making you
look like Leon. Dental drills - no way - just the sound of them is very
bad...

--

-Mike-

Electric Comet wrote:
On Fri, 01 May 2015 10:11:18 -0400
Greg Guarino wrote:

I am still very interested in anyone's personal experience with a
corner chisel, specifically whether a novice can keep one adequately
sharp.

sharpening should be considered a skill learneed by novice/apprentice
it can be a challenge but it's a skill that's real good to be had

i cringe when i see videos and the sparks are flying while someone
"sharpens" their $200+ bowl gouge

Do you really see that? On a $200+ bowl gouge? Routinely?

--

-Mike-

Larry Kraus wrote:

It really does not matter how WE would create a mortise.

You've received lots of choices, grab some scrap and some tools, make
a few mortices, and decide what works best for YOU.

Preach it, brother!

--

-Mike-

Sharpening small bevels: Get a small diamond file, or two. One or two flat files and one or two flat, yet, triangular files. Any small bevel can be easily and quickly honed - corner chisels, auger bits, other small applications.

I have a few small flat-triangular (clock repairman's) diamond files that I use for sharpening auger bits. Very handy, compared to other small files!

The problem with sharpening small bevels is not the sharpening tool, it's my eyeballs (focusing!), despite wearing reading glasses.

Sonny

On Fri, 01 May 2015 10:11:18 -0400, Greg Guarino
wrote:

So keep it up. Does anyone recommend an electric carving knife? An
dental drill? A laser?

Try them all - try a scroll saw. I would be very interested in seeing
pictures of your first attempts, no matter which method you use.

I am still very interested in anyone's personal experience with a corner
chisel, specifically whether a novice can keep one adequately sharp.


To me, the trick is to use a high quality tool and not let it get dull
past the point where it takes more than a Hard Arkansas Stone to put
the edge back on it. An even better trick is to not have to use them
very often

Can a novice keep one sharp? Sure, don't use it. Can a novice put the
edge back on a dull one? Possibly/probably/maybe - try and see. Can
a novice even use one effectively? Again, you won't know until you
try.

Jerry O.

On 05/01/2015 08:44 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Electric Comet wrote:
On Fri, 01 May 2015 10:11:18 -0400
Greg Guarino wrote:

I am still very interested in anyone's personal experience with a
corner chisel, specifically whether a novice can keep one adequately
sharp.

sharpening should be considered a skill learned by novice/apprentice
it can be a challenge but it's a skill that's real good to be had

i cringe when i see videos and the sparks are flying while someone
"sharpens" their $200+ bowl gouge

Do you really see that? On a $200+ bowl gouge? Routinely?

Where do you see $200 bowl gouges? Most are in the $50 - $100 range. I
don't recall ever seeing a bowl gouge for anywhere near $200 (not to say
they're not out there but it's not the norm).

Turners routinely sharpen on a grinding wheel so yeah, sparks are gonna
fly. But most these days use a jig I suspect, and you only have to just
kiss the stone to restore the edge.

Those that can afford it my opt for something like a Tormek or one of
it's knock-offs which is a very slow speed water wheel. But that's an
easy grand so rather the exception. I guess if I had a $200 bowl gouge
I'd probably have a Tormek too. Maybe I should hit one of those fund-me
web sites!

....Kevin
--
Kevin Miller
Juneau, Alaska
http://www.alaska.net/~atftb
"In the history of the world, no one has ever washed a rented car."
- Lawrence Summers

On Fri, 01 May 2015 15:30:15 +0000, Scott Lurndal wrote:

Keep the back flat and touch up the bevel with a slipstone or a popsicle
stick with self-adhesive sandpaper.

Or an emery board?

Greg Guarino wrote:
Working from memory, the answers to my question include:

Use a corner chisel
Corner chisels are too hard to sharpen
Use a regular bevel-edge chisel
Use a firmer chisel (had to look that one up)
Use a paring chisel, no mallet
Use a knife
Change the design
"Fake" the through tenon.

... which is what I've come to expect. I could complain that my range
of options - rather than being winnowed down - only *expands* when I
ask a question here, but that's part of the fun, and how I learn. I
know I'll need to do my own blundering about no matter what answers I
get.
So keep it up. Does anyone recommend an electric carving knife? An
dental drill? A laser?

I could be wrong but I don't believe anyone has mentioned a trained rodent.
Mouse, rat, squirrel...depends upon the size of the mortice. The downside
is that the critter has to be trained to gnaw on command. Upside is that
the critter WANTS to gnaw to keep its tooth growth in line.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 2:08:19 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:

Mouse, rat, squirrel...
dadiOH


And beaver.

On Fri, 01 May 2015 10:11:18 -0400
Greg Guarino wrote:

... which is what I've come to expect. I could complain that my range
of options - rather than being winnowed down - only *expands* when I
ask a question here, but that's part of the fun, and how I learn. I
know I'll need to do my own blundering about no matter what answers I
get.

i remember that quote by John Brown something like this:

"Yes read all the expert's advice, just don't let it get in the
way of your woodworking."

Greg Guarino wrote in news:mi01g7$8o4$1@dont-
email.me:

I could complain that my range of
options - rather than being winnowed down - only *expands* when I ask a
question here, but that's part of the fun, and how I learn. I know I'll
need to do my own blundering about no matter what answers I get.

Yeah, that's my favorite part of the wreck too.

I'm tempted to see what suggestions I get for a pair of cabinet
doors I mis-measured, and made 1/8" too narrow (so I have a 1/4"
gap in the middle, which is a tad too much). What I will probably
do is just glue a thin strip on the hinge side of each door.
But I'm tempted to get fancy, trim the doors on all four sides,
and add a 1/4" cock-bead all round.

John

Sonny wrote:
On Friday, May 1, 2015 at 2:08:19 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:

Mouse, rat, squirrel...
dadiOH


And beaver.

Who could not love a beaver?

--

-Mike-

On Fri, 01 May 2015 10:11:18 -0400, Greg Guarino
wrote:

I could complain that my range of
options - rather than being winnowed down - only *expands* when I ask a
question here, but that's part of the fun, and how I learn. I know I'll
need to do my own blundering about no matter what answers I get.

Here is a video showing just how easy through mortises can be cut
using a regular chisel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYpxhYHMNmI

Jerry O.

On 4/29/2015 5:40 PM, Leon wrote:
On 4/29/2015 4:15 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
I've already fielded some advice about alternatives to square (through)
mortises. But for now - at least until I find out what a pain they are -
I intend to try to make some.

From what I can glean so far, the chief advantage of mortise chisels
seems to be their thickness; they are nice and strong for lever action.
But I won't be chiseling out the whole mortise, only the corners. I'm
wondering if mortise chisels have any advantage over standard bevel edge
chisels for that task.

If so, would you get a chisel the full width of the mortise? Or perhaps
one size narrower?

One more thing: I find myself wondering if it's not easier to get a
straight, square edge if I start out with an oval mortise that is
slightly less long than the finished mortise will be. Otherwise I would
need to somehow chisel an edge that's exactly tangent to the
semicircular edge of the routed mortise. Any thoughts?

Consider also that there are also square cut chisels. They cut both
sides of the corner. Swingman uses/has one that looks like a
conventional chisel and I have one that indexes.

His
http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/A!CC.htm


I would advise establishing the corners with the chisel first and then
using the router to cut the mortise. Then clean up with the chisel.

I did a little experimentation with regular bevel-edge chisels. They
work OK, actually. With a little practice I think I could make neat
edges. But I decided to buy a corner chisel and see if that seems more
efficient. It's a Narex, a brand that seems to get good reviews, despite
being reasonably priced. We'll see how it works. It should arrive today.